Bear Down Wildcats

Disappointed. Disheartened. And a little pissed.

New boss same results.

Should've hired Niumatololo.

Let’s recruit some guys on the lines that don’t get pushed around, huh?

Thanks in advance Kev.

Chicat wrote:Let’s recruit some guys on the lines that don’t get pushed around, huh?

Thanks in advance Kev.

He's doing great recruiting the typical low rated 3 star to fill this hole. I mean that's why you pay Sumlin 3 million per right?

Let Tate be Tate or just give it up.

In the meantime ASU looks great with Herm.

UAdevil wrote:Let Tate be Tate or just give it up.

This is what frustrates me the most. You have the best running qb in college and you won't run him.

unless tate is hurt there is no excuse for this.

color me 1000% unimpressed with Sumlin. I was definitely wrong to be excited by this hire.

we rushed for over 4k yrds last year. I know our line is young, but it's hard to imagine abandoning that type of success

whatisee wrote:we rushed for over 4k yrds last year. I know our line is young, but it's hard to imagine abandoning that type of success

Well good news then, we don't have to imagine it, we can just rewind and watch the BYU game again!

Play calling aside, the most egregious error of the night was trusting what amounted to our second string defensive line to get a stop instead of trying the onside kick.

That was just stupid. They were getting fucking manhandled. And that’s just what happened.

Chicat wrote:Play calling aside, the most egregious error of the night was trusting what amounted to our second string defensive line to get a stop instead of trying the onside kick.

That was just stupid. They were getting fucking manhandled. And that’s just what happened.

Yeah that was a head scratcher

ChooChooCat wrote:

Chicat wrote:Let’s recruit some guys on the lines that don’t get pushed around, huh?

Thanks in advance Kev.

He's doing great recruiting the typical low rated 3 star to fill this hole. I mean that's why you pay Sumlin 3 million per right?

I wanted Les Miles.

At the moment we are getting RRod level recruiting and Stoops level coaching.............not a way to run a football program.

Still, it is WAYYYYYYY to early to throw the towel in. We need to give Sumlin at least a couple of recruiting classes to show that he can
improve the player personnel in the program.

Felt like we didn't coach to our strengths which is really just Tate running. On the other hand, it's possible that Tate doesn't really want to run either. The whole show I can be a "real" QB could be a factor.

Not saying he shouldn't have been fired but if RR was on the sideline last night we win that game.

DrWildcat wrote:Felt like we didn't coach to our strengths which is really just Tate running. On the other hand, it's possible that Tate doesn't really want to run either. The whole show I can be a "real" QB could be a factor.

Re: bolded. No, I think the whole problem was the coaches trying to make Tate into a QB who is also athletic. I think he was coached to be a drop back QB and to only run on designed plays. Which is what he did all game. They seem to be unable/unwilling to let Tate just be Tate. The coaching staff, in one game, has ruined any chance of Tate being a serious Heisman candidate this year. Having him play the way they did just made him look like another Brandon Dawkins, without the rushing yards. 50% passing and piss poor rushing because he only ran on designed plays.

FREE TATE!!!!!!!

azgreg wrote:Not saying he shouldn't have been fired but if RR was on the sideline last night we win that game.

Eh remember the 2016 BYU game and last year's Houston game?

dmjcat wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

Chicat wrote:Let’s recruit some guys on the lines that don’t get pushed around, huh?

Thanks in advance Kev.

He's doing great recruiting the typical low rated 3 star to fill this hole. I mean that's why you pay Sumlin 3 million per right?

I wanted Les Miles.

At the moment we are getting RRod level recruiting and Stoops level coaching.............not a way to run a football program.

Still, it is WAYYYYYYY to early to throw the towel in. We need to give Sumlin at least a couple of recruiting classes to show that he can
improve the player personnel in the program.

I'm not throwing in the towel on Sumlin, but the SOLE reason to pony up $3 million per to hire him at Arizona is to drastically improve recruiting (and apparently appeasing our players who wanted to retain Yates). It's obviously only year 1 on that recruiting trail, but the results so far are quite honestly dog shit and this isnt a coaching staff with zero connections to the west coast like Rich Rod's was, this is a staff fully engrained in California, Texas, and even Arizona, so the slow start (nice way to put it) seems odd to me.

He gets a few years obviously, but I was fully on board with hiring a young, hungry, cheap coach with connections to the west, that could grow at and with Arizona, like Beau Baldwin. As Arizona Football we have zero business shelling out $3 million plus to hire a well established coach who was fired at his last job. I certainly hope Sumlin proves worth the money we're giving him and the money we're currently paying Rich Rod to fuck off forever with. Last night was far from encouraging and (looks at 2019 class) the recruiting hasn't been either.

azgreg wrote:Not saying he shouldn't have been fired but if RR was on the sideline last night we win that game.

If the pundits are right in saying that it was Tate who decided to be a NFL pocket passer it wouldn't matter who was on the sidelines. Don't think RichRod or Sumlin would pull Tate with no true backup.

Merkin wrote:

azgreg wrote:Not saying he shouldn't have been fired but if RR was on the sideline last night we win that game.

If the pundits are right in saying that it was Tate who decided to be a NFL pocket passer it wouldn't matter who was on the sidelines. Don't think RichRod or Sumlin would pull Tate with no true backup.

Under RR I don't think that would have been an option.

It's freakin one game! It's not like we wee going undefeated. Everything is going to be ok. You can't build a program overnight. There is always an option for those who dont have the patience, follow GB to Alabama. Bear Down, Coach Sumlin.

Irish27 wrote:It's freakin one game! It's not like we wee going undefeated. Everything is going to be ok. You can't build a program overnight. There is always an option for those who dont have the patience, follow GB to Alabama. Bear Down, Coach Sumlin.

We all know that but the 48 hour bitching rule is in place.

What little I saw showed me the coaches have the book on Tate, namely keep those backers wide so he has to hand it off.

That really works when you know your D Line can treat our O Line like a bitch. I saw one play where their NG must have drove our C 6 yards back. And no one could block that 6'9" monster.

ChooChooCat wrote:

dmjcat wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

Chicat wrote:Let’s recruit some guys on the lines that don’t get pushed around, huh?

Thanks in advance Kev.

He's doing great recruiting the typical low rated 3 star to fill this hole. I mean that's why you pay Sumlin 3 million per right?

I wanted Les Miles.

At the moment we are getting RRod level recruiting and Stoops level coaching.............not a way to run a football program.

Still, it is WAYYYYYYY to early to throw the towel in. We need to give Sumlin at least a couple of recruiting classes to show that he can
improve the player personnel in the program.

I'm not throwing in the towel on Sumlin, but the SOLE reason to pony up $3 million per to hire him at Arizona is to drastically improve recruiting (and apparently appeasing our players who wanted to retain Yates). It's obviously only year 1 on that recruiting trail, but the results so far are quite honestly dog shit and this isnt a coaching staff with zero connections to the west coast like Rich Rod's was, this is a staff fully engrained in California, Texas, and even Arizona, so the slow start (nice way to put it) seems odd to me.

He gets a few years obviously, but I was fully on board with hiring a young, hungry, cheap coach with connections to the west, that could grow at and with Arizona, like Beau Baldwin. As Arizona Football we have zero business shelling out $3 million plus to hire a well established coach who was fired at his last job. I certainly hope Sumlin proves worth the money we're giving him and the money we're currently paying Rich Rod to fuck off forever with. Last night was far from encouraging and (looks at 2019 class) the recruiting hasn't been either.

I'm right there with you Choo. I am ALL about a new practice facility, and stadium upgrades, and everything else that would support a fan experience on par with the rest of the conference, at least.

But I have absolutely run out of patience for the new coach rhetoric that delivers the same, underwhelming on-field results. Stoops, to his credit, at least coached around the weaknesses to a degree and understood our strengths. Until the final Alamo Bowl and abortive final season, he coached to win games, for the most part.

AND he recruited. He left the cupboard full enough to take RR to a Pac-12 South title in his third year. But the depressing pattern of undercoached or not-properly-coached personnel continued anew in Tucson last night, and it should be evident by now, as Mackovic and RR have excruciatingly confirmed, the strategy of giving retreads fat, long-term contracts is not working on the recruiting trail. Byrne gave RR a half-season head start on his first class, and he managed to not only pull sub-Stoops personnel, he got away with letting several of his assistants not recruit at all.

Even sleepy CFB markets like Salt Lake and Boulder would be screamingly impatient with the now-decade-long cycle of non-competitive football classes to Tucson. Sorry, but "patience" and "$3 million for 12 games"= do not compute. Nobody's paying you that kind of "f- you" money to "wait a couple of recruiting classes." Not to beat Mountain West schools at home.

Win now, coaching to the strengths of the personnel you have, and recruit to fill your holes. Go JUCO if you have to, but bring the beef and the push off the lines back ASAP. The Pac-12 results back through last bowl season indicates this is going to be a year of historic underperformance for the conference, yet we're going to have to live with getting blown 4-5 yards off the line every play by an Oregon State team that gave up 77 to interim-coached Ohio State?!

By the way, whatever kind of QB Khalil Tate wants to be, it looked more like George Plimpton in "Paper Lion" last night. Nothing's instinctive, and it's evidently going to take him too long over 12 games to stop gobbling up valuable pocket time checking off every receiver instead of taking off and making the play himself. This "rebuilding" job should have been done in the off-season, not DURING the actual season, when you only have the time and reps to modify and adjust your game to the next opponent on the scouting report.

If last night's results are any indication, Sumlin is not only not the coach to bring excitement back to football in Tucson, he can't sustain it with promise of the future either. Just more closed practices and vague rhetoric so far.

Wat. RR got the south title in year 3, not 1.

ASUHATER! wrote:Wat. RR got the south title in year 3, not 1.

It's been fixed. The point stands. RR won primarily with Stoops players.

Sumlin doesn't have a similar luxury of winning with such a rich class the previous coach left behind.

I'm not asking for Dennis Erickson Year 1 at ASU. Larry Smith lost his first game to Colorado State, after all. I'm asking that coaches simply coach to the players' strengths and give the team the best possible chance to win. Stop making it about their "system" being so supposedly superior and just bring fire to the field.

Otherwise, it's evident. The game stops being fun. Players stop enjoying the game and look managed.

Nobody's going to flock to Arizona Stadium to watch the new coaches play poker with the playbook, much less the talent on the depth chart. Overcaution, for any number of reasons--liability/overexertion/CTE concerns, a cushy long-term contract, fear of scouts from next week's team, whatever--is an absolute drag on the college football product, is super-overt and is lousy for attendance.

Not fair to say Sumlin has to win with RR's players. You have to give him time to bring in his players, just like almost every school does. His offense, the qb is a first throw, then run guy. Tate is the opposite.

Irish27 wrote:Not fair to say Sumlin has to win with RR's players. You have to give him time to bring in his players, just like almost every school does. His offense, the qb is a first throw, then run guy. Tate is the opposite.

If you're going to force a square peg into a round hole then just convert Tate to a WR and start Doyle, otherwise play to your QB's strengths.

ChooChooCat wrote:

Irish27 wrote:Not fair to say Sumlin has to win with RR's players. You have to give him time to bring in his players, just like almost every school does. His offense, the qb is a first throw, then run guy. Tate is the opposite.

If you're going to force a square peg into a round hole then just convert Tate to a WR and start Doyle, otherwise play to your QB's strengths.

If he did that he would lose the team and the fans. He has to play with the cards he was dealt. I have no doubt we will see more running from Tate.

Irish27 wrote:Not fair to say Sumlin has to win with RR's players. You have to give him time to bring in his players, just like almost every school does. His offense, the qb is a first throw, then run guy. Tate is the opposite.

I don't buy the idea we can excuse it because these are RR's players. A coach has to use the resources he's given.

Tate is a hell of a resource to be given and he was largely wasted vs BYU. If there is someone who doesn't take rocket science to coach, it's Tate. He dominated with read option. Mix some of that into the offense. Dude was a Heisman candidate who is a tremendous runner and we basically did zilch with his legs.

If Sumlin was just struggling with lack of depth on D or some of the other personnel issues RR left, I would be more sympathetic. Wasting the team's greatest asset by not even trying to utilize it is a completely different thing. Running Tate isn't this subtle concept that could slip by a good coach. Any casual fan knows the big thing Tate brings and against BYU, Tate ran so little, he couldn't even force defenders in the box despite being the most talented QB runner in the nation. That is all scheme.

Did Coach Olson make Steve Kerr play with his back to the basket?
Did Coach Candrea try to turn Jennie Finch into a catcher?

KaibabKat wrote:Did Coach Olson make Steve Kerr play with his back to the basket?
Did Coach Candrea try to turn Jennie Finch into a catcher?

It was like if Lute decided the best way to use Bibby, Simon, Dickerson and Terry on the perimeter in 1997 was to feed Bramlett in the post as much as possible. Take your greatest asset and squander it because you're trying...what was our strategy again?

The D got gassed because we were going 3 and out a ton because we were running vertical routes half the time. We did very little building of drives and moving the chains. We either hit big plays or went 3 and out.

Sounds like coach made all the guys who weren't suited up for the (home) game watch from home or watch from the stands. This era so far is dog shit.

ChooChooCat wrote:Sounds like coach made all the guys who weren't suited up for the (home) game watch from home or watch from the stands. This era so far is dog shit.

hmmm...that doesn't sound good

ChooChooCat wrote:Sounds like coach made all the guys who weren't suited up for the (home) game watch from home or watch from the stands. This era so far is dog shit.

Did he used to do this at Texas A&M?

What is the purpose of that move Choo?

That’s some serious shit.

I feel like we are heading into Wachovic territory

CalStateTempe wrote:I feel like we are heading into Wachovic territory

Let’s pump the brakes...

CalStateTempe wrote:What is the purpose of that move Choo?

That’s some serious shit.

There's 2 possible logical reasons I can muster here:

1. It's less distracting on the sideline and communication is a bit easier. I think that excuse is beyond bogus, especially due to the ramifications alienating some players cause, but at least there's logic behind that excuse.

2. You're looking to force out as many guys as you can who do not fit your system or aren't good enough in your estimation by alienating them. I'd buy this argument more if our recruiting class wasn't pure horseshit at the moment though.

There it is, very bottom of the article, he's going with my first option, and I think it's pure garbage.

https://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildca ... 91b0b.html" target="_blank

azcat49 wrote:What little I saw showed me the coaches have the book on Tate, namely keep those backers wide so he has to hand it off.

That really works when you know your D Line can treat our O Line like a bitch. I saw one play where their NG must have drove our C 6 yards back. And no one could block that 6'9" monster.

Yep, he hasn't done anything running the ball in the last 4 games since defensive coordinators have adjusted.

Our new OC seems to be the last one to realize that this program does NOT have the beef up front with the protection abilities to give Tate the time to develop into a passer into the pocket. The offensive line just isn't there, and it isn't even at the level Mazzone's been used to at most of his other stops, where he's had the luxury of working with much higher-ranked recruiting classes.

Irish needs to be right about Tate getting more opportunities to run Saturday, because he needs to have that run option at his disposal when--not if, against Ed Oliver--the pocket breaks down.

I won't take the Lute analogy as far as some of you, but one of the man's greatest reasons he is a Hall of Fame coach? In-game adjustments. Coaching the best out of your talent. We all need more of that from our new football coaches, especially after the special-teams-sacrificing stubbornness of RR.

The o line is another reason the offensive scheme is so baffling. Run blocking is generally easier than pass blocking, but we locked a shaky o line into pass protection on deep routes where they have to hold blocks for max time.

Everything on the team sets up for zone read because this is still basically RR personnel, and we don't run zone read at all. I know a HC wants his own scheme, but do it like this and you're going to get murdered while developing it.

It really pisses me off we're going to waste a guy who could have been a Heisman contender to run a scheme that plays to all our weaknesses and none of our strengths.

I mean we're one game in, but that first game reminds me of Sean Miller's first year at Arizona, where he couldn't care less about winning, but rather installing his system and getting his players proficient at it for the future as opposed to playing to his players' strengths to win games. I guess we'll see what happens from this point on, but yeah could be a long year.

Folks relax, it's been 1 game. Our offensive line, which was here when Sumlin arrived just a few months ago remember, is currently EXTREMELY young, undersized, and green. Is that Sumlin's fault? No. We have 0 depth or experience on the offensive line. We probably have the worst, or second worst offensive line in the conference, currently. We'll see if the coaching staff can coach them up. And our defensive line isn't much better.

If you think the solution is to just have Tate run the ball 40 times a game and go 12-1, that's not realistic. I personally liked how Sumlin admitted that yes we as a coaching staff need to do a better job with the personnel we have and they're going to do a better job. He's never coached these guys before in a game.

Personally, I could care less if we go 4-8 this year, as long as we show signs of improvement and Sumlin brings in a better recruting class than we've had, oh lets say over the past 5-100 years. For as long as I can remember, the Achilles heel of Arizona football has always been we can't get highly ranked, highly talented offensive lineman to come play here. The PAC 12 as a conference isn't exactly known as having the best offensive lines in the nation to begin with, and we haven't even placed a single player to the PAC's first team all-conference O line in over a decade.

I was also impressed that Sumlin resisted the opportunity after that disappointing loss to rip all the players he has, the program, bitching and moaning about how the cupboards were just so bare when he got here. That's happened here before, like almost every coaching change. You know Sumlin's not happy with the overall talent level in the program right now, but he bit his tongue, said we'll do better as coaches and go from there.

I certainly was not impressed with play calling and extremely disappointed in the outcome. Even with BYU being physically dominant we still should have could have won that game. We really only let BYU out of the cage for one quarter but that's all it took. A friend of mine presented another question that's worth examining. It may not all have been Sumlin and Mazzone's play calling. Sumlin in the post interview implied he didn't like that Tate was throwing long on first down in those two fourth quarter possessions. I wonder if some of this is Tate trying to hard to do what the coaches want and be just the quarterback. From a win lose perspective it doesn't matter, the results were the same. I do believe our O line will get better and Tate and the coaches will figure this out and fix it.

I hate playing BYU.

They always smoke us

Did not see the game live and read most of your guys comments an then watched it yesterday. My emotions were:

1) both lines got worked
2) Tate looked like the same thrower he was last year
3) Tate seemed like the same impatient QB lofting up hail mary's too many times
4) Once again when it counted our defense could not get off the field
5) Mazzone's play calling, I am still scratching my head
6) Shun Brown, did he even play?
7) Sumlin, did he even care we lost. Not comforted by his post game comments
8) no urgency in camp and it looked the same in this game

I can't find one area to disagree with Choo on. One of the most dynamic QB's in football and we find a way to make him insignificant. I thought 8 wins was very probable but now I am wondering if we can win 4 with what I saw this past week

Spaceman Spiff wrote:The o line is another reason the offensive scheme is so baffling. Run blocking is generally easier than pass blocking, but we locked a shaky o line into pass protection on deep routes where they have to hold blocks for max time.

Everything on the team sets up for zone read because this is still basically RR personnel, and we don't run zone read at all. I know a HC wants his own scheme, but do it like this and you're going to get murdered while developing it.

It really pisses me off we're going to waste a guy who could have been a Heisman contender to run a scheme that plays to all our weaknesses and none of our strengths.

^ This

Bottom line: fucked up scheme and play calling. Sumlin? Mazzone? Who knows or cares. The result's the same. Pisses me off.