Bear Down Wildcats

UA #10, UCLA #21

Found another jab at Sumlin - I found this video about the upcoming Notre Dame vs Vanderbilt game, but at the 6:27 mark they talk about Sumlin and how he makes 5 star QB's play like 3 star QB's. Check it out:

DrWildcat wrote:I think its a little too early to completely give up on Sumlin and I really hope recruiting picks up.

The defense is still bad and I see very little reason to expect that it will change significantly with Yates as DC. He was supposedly handcuffed by his HC requiring him to run the defense a certain way. Too me, it looks like there have been few if any changes. He still runs a soft defense.

On offense, we have a electric athlete who doesn't want to use all of his skills because he thinks he has a future as an NFL QB. I say this because even when the play breaks down, he never tries to run anymore. The first instinct as a running QB is to run when the play breaks down. Instead, Tate just holds the ball too long and throws a low percentage bomb. The only thing that makes sense is that Tate is making a concerted effort to prove he can be a pocket passer. I doubt any HC/OC would be happy with his decision making knowing the athletic skills he possesses. I don't buy the whole "sacrificing the present for the future". Tate is not a pocket passer and it is highly unlikely that he ever will succeed in that role.

I wouldn't put so much on Tate. He destroyed people with read option. Mazzone and Sumlin don't ever put him in read option, where he would be running by default.

The system we have Tate in is like putting Peyton Manning as a triple option QB. I can forgive decisions in individual plays, but we've schemed Tate away from running.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

DrWildcat wrote:I think its a little too early to completely give up on Sumlin and I really hope recruiting picks up.

The defense is still bad and I see very little reason to expect that it will change significantly with Yates as DC. He was supposedly handcuffed by his HC requiring him to run the defense a certain way. Too me, it looks like there have been few if any changes. He still runs a soft defense.

On offense, we have a electric athlete who doesn't want to use all of his skills because he thinks he has a future as an NFL QB. I say this because even when the play breaks down, he never tries to run anymore. The first instinct as a running QB is to run when the play breaks down. Instead, Tate just holds the ball too long and throws a low percentage bomb. The only thing that makes sense is that Tate is making a concerted effort to prove he can be a pocket passer. I doubt any HC/OC would be happy with his decision making knowing the athletic skills he possesses. I don't buy the whole "sacrificing the present for the future". Tate is not a pocket passer and it is highly unlikely that he ever will succeed in that role.

I wouldn't put so much on Tate. He destroyed people with read option. Mazzone and Sumlin don't ever put him in read option, where he would be running by default.

The system we have Tate in is like putting Peyton Manning as a triple option QB. I can forgive decisions in individual plays, but we've schemed Tate away from running.

While the offensive scheme definitely puts a lot less emphasis on running, the fact that Tate doesn't run even when the pocket breaks down (which happens quickly with our line) is odd to me. I have a hard time believing that it is because Mazzone or Sumlin tell him not to run.

DrWildcat wrote: While the offensive scheme definitely puts a lot less emphasis on running, the fact that Tate doesn't run even when the pocket breaks down (which happens quickly with our line) is odd to me. I have a hard time believing that it is because Mazzone or Sumlin tell him not to run.

Same here. Tate didn't run the last 3 games of last season either. Can't blame that on this current staff. 58 yards is his highest running total the last 5 games.

Merkin wrote:

DrWildcat wrote: While the offensive scheme definitely puts a lot less emphasis on running, the fact that Tate doesn't run even when the pocket breaks down (which happens quickly with our line) is odd to me. I have a hard time believing that it is because Mazzone or Sumlin tell him not to run.

Same here. Tate didn't run the last 3 games of last season either. Can't blame that on this current staff. 58 yards is his highest running total the last 5 games.

Eh. Last year, he didn't play a full game vs ASU. He had 14 and 20 attempts in the other two games. He just didn't have as much YPA.

That said, just having him as a running threat helps. It sucks extra defenders in the box. Right now, he isn't a threat due to the game plan, and that hurts the passing game too.

Winger posted this at 24/7 Premium and I asked his permission first before posting here:

WingerCat
Sep 13, 9:35 AM

As Aggie fan and the rest of the world tells you that Sumlin can't coach, is soft, doesn't develop players, and the like.

A&M was no good prior to entering the SEC, and that was playing in the lowly Big "12". In the 5 seasons prior to Sumlin's arrival the Aggies has a winning conference record once and finished up ranked in the final AP top 25 once (19th). A&M hadn't been a consistently good program since the 1990s and the 2 coaches prior to Sumlin failed quickly and were fired.

Sumlin's hire coincided with the move to the SEC West. I remind you that that half of the conference includes Alabama, Auburn, and LSU. In addition to Miss, Ole Miss, and Arky. Plus, you have Georgia, Florida, and So Carolina in the East. You want a quick test of how hard it has been to be successful in the SEC West over time? Quick - name me a long term successful coach from the SEC West not named Saban. You're going back to early-oughts-Miles aren't you? And even with Lester, you have to concede that he was castrated rather quickly following the arrival of Saban. Regardless, it ain't a very long list and A&M ain't no LSU Bama or Auburn, let's not delude ourselves like Aggie fan in his uniform and pop gun.

Sumlin was 35-17 at Houston and under his tuteledge Keenum set about a million NCAA passing records. This ain't in a Big 5 conference but he was 12-1 his final season, and through his tenure the Cougars were 4-1 vs teams ranked at the time of the game, and 5-4 vs teams from Big 5 conferences, and he had wins over #5 Okie State and #22 PSU.

As I am sure you know, Sumlin went 11-2 his first season in College Station, his QB won the Heisman, he beat #1 ranked Alabama, and he throttled OU in the Cotton Bowl and ended the season ranked #5.

From then on he went 40-24 and his teams went to a bowl game every season (fwtiw).

You got that, right? Sumlin was 51-26 at A&M.

Not 26-51.

His 6-season record at A&M in the SEC was better than A&M's record in the Big "12" the 6 seasons prior to his arrival (42-35).

Got that as well, right? If not, read it again, and then send it on to that girl you know in College Station who has been beating you up with "I told you so"s.

Further, if you look at his record a little closer you'll see the following. 15 of Sumlin's regular season losses came vs ranked teams. What's more, 8 of those teams were ranked in the Top 10, 5 in the Top 5, and 3 of 'em were ranked #1. Sumlin was under water vs ranked teams at A&M but not terribly so at 13-15. In comparison Rich Rod went 8-17 vs ranked teams at Arizona and was blown out far more often. Sumlin got 5 of his 6 squads ranked in the AP Top 10 at some point in the season though only his first 2 finished up there.

Sumlin is coaching the players Rodriguez signed. He does not run the ZRO nor the 3-3-5 and I have been telling you that Arizona's recruiting has been for shit for years. He has coached 2 games at Arizona - versus teams Rodriguez didn't score 20 points against -- and also lost to -- in 2016 and 2017. If Arizona had opened up with NAU and UTEP, or UTSA and Grambling, or UNLV and Southern Alabama, I bet none of you feel the way you currently do.

But the same Sumlin would still be your head coach.

Don't get me wrong I am furious at not using Tate's legs. I am however not surprised that Tate can't throw, that the defense isn't very good, nor that we laid an egg on the road in a 9 am start time. I expected Sumlin to Manziel-up Tate but that obviously hasn't happened. But I also expected Tate to get hurt and Arizona to crater when he was unavailable to play. These reasons are partly why I told you I liked Arizona under 7.5 wins.

But even more so it was on account of the lack of talent on the roster coupled with the fact that what talent that was here was not recruited to fit and fill Sumlin's systems.

That's a long way of saying, again, that while I certainly understand it, I think the entire free world is over reacting to Arizona's start as it reflects on what kind of coach Sumlin is or will be. I will save you the examples, but I'd suggest waiting to see how Jimbo in fact does at A&M in particular, and not lose sight of Rodriguez and Niu's limitations (fully documented here), before you conclude that Sumlin is an unmotivated dipshit who sits at home in the evening counting his money in a cuddly flamingo colored bathrobe and slippers.

He is and always was my guy. If I could get away with it I'd be wearing an afro-filled Arizona visor 24-7-365, instead of only when I shower. I am wearing Arizona football gear to work for the first time in years. Responding to the heckling with "that's funny, enjoy it for now, because we're coming for you", or something of the like. I love him. Still. Things I note to reflect my bias.

But my bias in no way affects the reality that says none of you know what you have in a head coach yet. And I'd offer that the available evidence says he is the best head coach Arizona has hired in 50 years. Or longer. So until you know and see otherwise; my advice, should you want to hear and choose to accept it, is:

Chill.

Still glad Sumlin is our coach, but thought this was interesting about Niumatalolo's teams.

Thx Eebs for posting Wingers thoughts. Makes sense but it is still perplexing as to Tate and his use

Tate can’t run and he cant pass. He’s done. Next man up.

Tatanka wrote:Tate can’t run and he cant pass. He’s done. Next man up.

Other than his 4 game out of this world streak, he has been much like Dawkins. Iffy passer, OK runner, not great at anything when he is nicked up (which seems to happen a lot).

Guy was hobbled by the turf monster. Doesn't look like he's the guy.

So what made Sumlin successful?

UAEebs86 wrote:Winger posted this at 24/7 Premium and I asked his permission first before posting here:

WingerCat
Sep 13, 9:35 AM

As Aggie fan and the rest of the world tells you that Sumlin can't coach, is soft, doesn't develop players, and the like.

A&M was no good prior to entering the SEC, and that was playing in the lowly Big "12". In the 5 seasons prior to Sumlin's arrival the Aggies has a winning conference record once and finished up ranked in the final AP top 25 once (19th). A&M hadn't been a consistently good program since the 1990s and the 2 coaches prior to Sumlin failed quickly and were fired.

Sumlin's hire coincided with the move to the SEC West. I remind you that that half of the conference includes Alabama, Auburn, and LSU. In addition to Miss, Ole Miss, and Arky. Plus, you have Georgia, Florida, and So Carolina in the East. You want a quick test of how hard it has been to be successful in the SEC West over time? Quick - name me a long term successful coach from the SEC West not named Saban. You're going back to early-oughts-Miles aren't you? And even with Lester, you have to concede that he was castrated rather quickly following the arrival of Saban. Regardless, it ain't a very long list and A&M ain't no LSU Bama or Auburn, let's not delude ourselves like Aggie fan in his uniform and pop gun.

Sumlin was 35-17 at Houston and under his tuteledge Keenum set about a million NCAA passing records. This ain't in a Big 5 conference but he was 12-1 his final season, and through his tenure the Cougars were 4-1 vs teams ranked at the time of the game, and 5-4 vs teams from Big 5 conferences, and he had wins over #5 Okie State and #22 PSU.

As I am sure you know, Sumlin went 11-2 his first season in College Station, his QB won the Heisman, he beat #1 ranked Alabama, and he throttled OU in the Cotton Bowl and ended the season ranked #5.

From then on he went 40-24 and his teams went to a bowl game every season (fwtiw).

You got that, right? Sumlin was 51-26 at A&M.

Not 26-51.

His 6-season record at A&M in the SEC was better than A&M's record in the Big "12" the 6 seasons prior to his arrival (42-35).

Got that as well, right? If not, read it again, and then send it on to that girl you know in College Station who has been beating you up with "I told you so"s.

Further, if you look at his record a little closer you'll see the following. 15 of Sumlin's regular season losses came vs ranked teams. What's more, 8 of those teams were ranked in the Top 10, 5 in the Top 5, and 3 of 'em were ranked #1. Sumlin was under water vs ranked teams at A&M but not terribly so at 13-15. In comparison Rich Rod went 8-17 vs ranked teams at Arizona and was blown out far more often. Sumlin got 5 of his 6 squads ranked in the AP Top 10 at some point in the season though only his first 2 finished up there.

Sumlin is coaching the players Rodriguez signed. He does not run the ZRO nor the 3-3-5 and I have been telling you that Arizona's recruiting has been for shit for years. He has coached 2 games at Arizona - versus teams Rodriguez didn't score 20 points against -- and also lost to -- in 2016 and 2017. If Arizona had opened up with NAU and UTEP, or UTSA and Grambling, or UNLV and Southern Alabama, I bet none of you feel the way you currently do.

But the same Sumlin would still be your head coach.

Don't get me wrong I am furious at not using Tate's legs. I am however not surprised that Tate can't throw, that the defense isn't very good, nor that we laid an egg on the road in a 9 am start time. I expected Sumlin to Manziel-up Tate but that obviously hasn't happened. But I also expected Tate to get hurt and Arizona to crater when he was unavailable to play. These reasons are partly why I told you I liked Arizona under 7.5 wins.

But even more so it was on account of the lack of talent on the roster coupled with the fact that what talent that was here was not recruited to fit and fill Sumlin's systems.

That's a long way of saying, again, that while I certainly understand it, I think the entire free world is over reacting to Arizona's start as it reflects on what kind of coach Sumlin is or will be. I will save you the examples, but I'd suggest waiting to see how Jimbo in fact does at A&M in particular, and not lose sight of Rodriguez and Niu's limitations (fully documented here), before you conclude that Sumlin is an unmotivated dipshit who sits at home in the evening counting his money in a cuddly flamingo colored bathrobe and slippers.

He is and always was my guy. If I could get away with it I'd be wearing an afro-filled Arizona visor 24-7-365, instead of only when I shower. I am wearing Arizona football gear to work for the first time in years. Responding to the heckling with "that's funny, enjoy it for now, because we're coming for you", or something of the like. I love him. Still. Things I note to reflect my bias.

But my bias in no way affects the reality that says none of you know what you have in a head coach yet. And I'd offer that the available evidence says he is the best head coach Arizona has hired in 50 years. Or longer. So until you know and see otherwise; my advice, should you want to hear and choose to accept it, is:

Chill.

I agree. It’s just makes it hard to watch this year. But hey, we will have a DC search this year.

I am believing this coaching staff won't be out-coaching their opponents a lot. I still remember the UCLA game last year against Texas A&M when the Aggies blew that huge lead. Hopefully we will see changes in the staff after this season.

Irish27 wrote:I am believing this coaching staff won't be out-coaching their opponents a lot. I still remember the UCLA game last year against Texas A&M when the Aggies blew that huge lead. Hopefully we will see changes in the staff after this season.

I doubt we are going to see changes with coaches Sumlin brought along with him.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

DrWildcat wrote:I think its a little too early to completely give up on Sumlin and I really hope recruiting picks up.

The defense is still bad and I see very little reason to expect that it will change significantly with Yates as DC. He was supposedly handcuffed by his HC requiring him to run the defense a certain way. Too me, it looks like there have been few if any changes. He still runs a soft defense.

On offense, we have a electric athlete who doesn't want to use all of his skills because he thinks he has a future as an NFL QB. I say this because even when the play breaks down, he never tries to run anymore. The first instinct as a running QB is to run when the play breaks down. Instead, Tate just holds the ball too long and throws a low percentage bomb. The only thing that makes sense is that Tate is making a concerted effort to prove he can be a pocket passer. I doubt any HC/OC would be happy with his decision making knowing the athletic skills he possesses. I don't buy the whole "sacrificing the present for the future". Tate is not a pocket passer and it is highly unlikely that he ever will succeed in that role.

I wouldn't put so much on Tate. He destroyed people with read option. Mazzone and Sumlin don't ever put him in read option, where he would be running by default.

The system we have Tate in is like putting Peyton Manning as a triple option QB. I can forgive decisions in individual plays, but we've schemed Tate away from running.

Tate doesn't want to do RPOs. When he does he hands it off 95% of the time. He has zero interest in running and taking hits. He's gotten outside advice and he's not straying from it.

Much of what you see out there is Tate's fault. The rest is on Mazzone's shit playcalling (if it's actually followed by Tate).

Once again we are in an unbreakable marriage to a running back at QB, but this one won't even run.

Tate apparently has an agent telling him to save himself for the NFL by not doing the only thing that will get him a sniff by the NFL.
It's time to fire him and let him transfer if he wants.
Of course i would fire Mazzone and the defensive staff as well. No excuses for Yates lack of talent since he has been recruiting for what? 3 years now?
Less heralded coaching staffs here have gotten bigger players than we have.

That outside advice that Tate has gotten is not going to change a thing.

Tate isn't spending a day on any NFL teams roster as a QB. Additionally I know he's a college kid but look at the difference between a guy like Colin Schooler who openly takes responsibility for bad play on the field and takes criticism well, mans up and answers that tough questions. Truly leader material.

Tate gets openly upset and goes into a immature shell when asked to explain poor plays and decisions on the field. Now that losing games is more prevalent folks are seeing this more and more.

Whoever is in his ear is not doing him any favors because he's an average run of the mill passing college QB with WR/RB legs and speed that needs to make hay now, in college.

There's no NFL in his future as a play caller and passer and maturity wise he's not progressing well.

Gotta agree with Scheer here.

Gladiator Cat wrote:That outside advice that Tate has gotten is not going to change a thing.

Tate isn't spending a day on any NFL teams roster as a QB. Additionally I know he's a college kid but look at the difference between a guy like Colin Schooler who openly takes responsibility for bad play on the field and takes criticism well, mans up and answers that tough questions. Truly leader material.

Tate gets openly upset and goes into a immature shell when asked to explain poor plays and decisions on the field. Now that losing games is more prevalent folks are seeing this more and more.

Whoever is in his ear is not doing him any favors because he's an average run of the mill passing college QB with WR/RB legs and speed that needs to make hay now, in college.

There's no NFL in his future as a play caller and passer and maturity wise he's not progressing well.

Nor is he likely to. We saw it in his first season as a Wildcat when he lay down and faked an injury because he was gassed and needed a breather. How about getting in shape? His psychological maturity seems not to have progressed since. He has tools from the neck down only, and that's not enough.

Khalil better have a quick change of attitude this year because next year with Doyle being in his second year in the program as a likely RS Freshmen and the other big-time record setting QB from Texas coming in, Sumlin and Mozzone are going to have options next year.

Merkin wrote:Gotta agree with Scheer here.

Scheer is also well aware that Tate's "injuries" are pure fabricated bullshit, but he can't come out and say it.

Well coach, nothing like pine time to get the players to do what you want.

ChooChooCat wrote:

Merkin wrote:Gotta agree with Scheer here.

Scheer is also well aware that Tate's "injuries" are pure fabricated bullshit, but he can't come out and say it.

Choo, serious question. Is this some kind of a wacky goofball ploy the coaching staff is using to shield themselves and Tate from criticism and losing?

Or is this Tate using some kind of hair-brained fake injury ploy to shield himself from his poor play and poor decision making and passing limitations criticism?

If this really is all fake injury BS then I don't know if I can even watch the crap anymore.

This is really the weirdest football situation I can ever recall. A qb who has gifts that few have, now refuses to use those gifts.

Gladiator Cat wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

Merkin wrote:Gotta agree with Scheer here.

Scheer is also well aware that Tate's "injuries" are pure fabricated bullshit, but he can't come out and say it.

Choo, serious question. Is this some kind of a wacky goofball ploy the coaching staff is using to shield themselves and Tate from criticism and losing?

Or is this Tate using some kind of hair-brained fake injury ploy to shield himself from his poor play and poor decision making and passing limitations criticism?

If this really is all fake injury BS then I don't know if I can even watch the crap anymore.

I mean there has been some pure awful playcalling Gladiator, there's no disputing that, and we all know the defense is a mess, but Tate not running or not taking risks/routes that he did last year has every thing to do with him not wanting to run and risk his body. He has been advised that his future depends on him being a real QB, which means running as little as possible and when doing so take the safest course, hence running out of bounds as quick as possible.

All in all he's not in it for the wins, he's in it for his future, and ironically enough he's sinking his own future doing the things he's doing.

I'm with you, I turned the game off at the half, and I have zero interest in this program until we go in a new direction or Tate decides to actually act like he cares about winning football games.

I don't know what it'll take for Sumlin to make a change honestly. He literally may just deal with this crap for the entire year and hit a full reset next season. To be honest I'm under the impression Sumlin/Mazzone want Gunnell to be the guy, so they may not want to throw Doyle/Joiner out there, so that publicly it looks like all 3 of those guys are on even footing going into camp next year.

Like Tate said, or alluded to anyway, you have to be a passer to make it in the NFL as a QB.

He knows better than anyone else too I am sure about the dangers of CTE to QBs, just look at Anu Solomon, and on a sadder note Tyler Hilinski.

Tate gimping and hobbling around on the field every week is starting to look dumb and clownish as hell to the average observer and people are wising up to the fact that this is all a ploy to not get hurt.

News flash: Khalil Tate as a player today is completely undraftable as a NFL QB. His passing skill set is in the lowest quartile of QB ratings. His entire passing attributes consists of 50 yard bombs and handing off the RB's with little else to show.

Hurt or not this kid is regressing at a rapid pace and the fake injury quackery is even more concerning from just an honesty and maturity point of view.

At some point the coaching staff is going to be outed labeled as fully complicit with this fraud if its true.

I kinda loved that Sumlin picked up an "unsportsman like" penalty for getting after the refs when they didn't call the late hit in the endzone on Shun's TD (the one where Shun actually got flagged for celebrating).

I'm not a fan of this first year.

His recruiting better be fucking amazing, because he ain't worth a limp dick as a head coach.

ChooChooCat wrote:His recruiting better be fucking amazing, because he ain't worth a limp dick as a head coach.

x100

Arizona football is dead to me as long as Sumlin is coaching. here.

If he doesnt learn from today then he is absolutely worthless and the day his buyout is affordable can't come soon enough.

ChooChooCat wrote:His recruiting better be fucking amazing, because he ain't worth a limp dick as a head coach.

He recruited really well at aTm and underperformed with those guys. I'm not optimistic the coaching has changed.

Maybe he can get Kliff Kingsbury back.

Wow, How does Sumlin choke this game. 40-24 to 40-41 ASU survive.

Out-coached by Herm Edwards - let that sink in....

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:His recruiting better be fucking amazing, because he ain't worth a limp dick as a head coach.

He recruited really well at aTm and underperformed with those guys. I'm not optimistic the coaching has changed.

Maybe he can get Kliff Kingsbury back.

A lot of peeps are leaving, but doesnt sound like Mazzone will.be one of them.

ChooChooCat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:His recruiting better be fucking amazing, because he ain't worth a limp dick as a head coach.

He recruited really well at aTm and underperformed with those guys. I'm not optimistic the coaching has changed.

Maybe he can get Kliff Kingsbury back.

A lot of peeps are leaving, but doesnt sound like Mazzone will.be one of them.

Then alumni should refuse to spend a penny more on the product. There's nothing positive to lead into next season with this choke.

I mean, WTF was that?

If Mazzone is staying im not getting seson tickets next year. I was thinking of getting better seats next year too at half time.

Mazzone and Tate were always a mismatch. Mazzone will have a QB that fits him better next year. If it sucks then you fire him. A lot of the offense's issues this season were on Tate.

ChooChooCat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:His recruiting better be fucking amazing, because he ain't worth a limp dick as a head coach.

He recruited really well at aTm and underperformed with those guys. I'm not optimistic the coaching has changed.

Maybe he can get Kliff Kingsbury back.

A lot of peeps are leaving, but doesnt sound like Mazzone will.be one of them.

The excuse/build hope for next year move I'd guess will be Yates this year

Save Mazonne for excuse/build hope for next year...for next year

Rinse and repeat and hope springs eternal!

This was on Sumlin, not Mazzone. Sumlin decided to go for two (twice) when it wasn’t necessary. Two extra po8nts and we win. Also, do we think Mazzone made the call to go into a bunker with 9+ minutes left in the game? That led directly to 1 turnover and indirectly to the 2nd. Losing mentality results in horrific losses.

For those of you who want Sumlin gone who's going to pay for it?

You can’t fire a coach after 1 year without serious malfeasance. Otherwise who would come and coach for you knowing they get no chance to make improvements? But yeah, for now this looks like a bad hire.

azgreg wrote:For those of you who want Sumlin gone who's going to pay for it?

All I want is to have Grant come in and give us all something to believe in.

azgreg wrote:For those of you who want Sumlin gone who's going to pay for it?

Maybe we're stuck him for awhile but I think he sucks and I wish we had hired Les Miles.
The last two hires we passed up coaches who had long careers in a P5 conference for one's that were canned in 6 years or less.