Coach Sumlin

[Merkin]

Mackovic was COY in 3 difference conferences was a head coach in the NFL.

I'm not condemning Sumlin (outside the 4Q ASU game), but it just seems with a huge 8 figure bank account, maybe the spark that takes the coach to the next level is gone.

But Sumlin is smart enough to know to how to beat half the teams he plays just with his smarts and getting decent recruiting classes, and can only work 70 hour weeks instead of 80 during season.

In effect, you can cruise pretty well at Arizona with what he knows and what players he can get without putting in the extreme hours the other programs do.

Will Sumlin put in the 100 hour workweeks Nick Sabin does?

Not saying Sumlin doesn't work hard, he does. You have to at this level.

[Chicat]

I think we are all being way too presumptive and dismissive. I’m going to give Sumlin the benefit of the doubt for at least one more season and recruiting class.

[EastCoastCat]

I think we are all being way too presumptive and dismissive. I’m going to give Sumlin the benefit of the doubt for at least one more season and recruiting class.

This. Let's first build a case for his beheading...

[Spaceman Spiff]

I think we are all being way too presumptive and dismissive. I’m going to give Sumlin the benefit of the doubt for at least one more season and recruiting class.

Here's my issue. Last year, the coaching was bad. Offensively, the year long strategy was repetitively ramming a square peg into a round hole, and we averaged 10 fewer ppg than the year before. On D, we actually were better than under RR, but went from dumpster fire to fire in highnclass dumpster.

Being new to the school doesn't limit coaching and scheming, and I saw very little that gives me confidence about Sumlin in that area.

Then comes the offseason. He could offset some coaching issues with recruiting. He landed a class that's ranked about what RR's classes were, and everyone hated that and thought it left us bereft of talent.

I want the guy to succeed, but I'm not seeing it.

[DrWildcat]

I think we are all being way too presumptive and dismissive. I’m going to give Sumlin the benefit of the doubt for at least one more season and recruiting class.

Here's my issue. Last year, the coaching was bad. Offensively, the year long strategy was repetitively ramming a square peg into a round hole, and we averaged 10 fewer ppg than the year before. On D, we actually were better than under RR, but went from dumpster fire to fire in highnclass dumpster.

Being new to the school doesn't limit coaching and scheming, and I saw very little that gives me confidence about Sumlin in that area.

Then comes the offseason. He could offset some coaching issues with recruiting. He landed a class that's ranked about what RR's classes were, and everyone hated that and thought it left us bereft of talent.

I want the guy to succeed, but I'm not seeing it.

Some of the coaching decision were a little head scratching at times but it wasn't that bad. Offensively, I think there were more factors than just playcalling. You know the OC doesn't make the decision on where the ball goes on a pass plays right? The repeated runs up the middle at times could be frustrating but JJ did rush for 1434 yards, 7th most in the FBS. Yates probably should be gone, but it seems like we don't have the money to get rid of him.

With recruiting, we will see. I'm pretty sure the final 247 average commit rating was higher, albeit just by the slightest margin, than any class RR brought in. If his 4star players actually play like 4star talent then we will be better off than under RR. In a short year, where on the field results were mediocre, I would say he did ok. The next two classes will be big and they will need to be better.

I think year 3 will be the deciding year for Sumlin. The doom and gloom after one year for a program that has been mediocre most of the time seems over the top to me.

[Chicat]

I think we are all being way too presumptive and dismissive. I’m going to give Sumlin the benefit of the doubt for at least one more season and recruiting class.

Here's my issue. Last year, the coaching was bad. Offensively, the year long strategy was repetitively ramming a square peg into a round hole, and we averaged 10 fewer ppg than the year before. On D, we actually were better than under RR, but went from dumpster fire to fire in highnclass dumpster.

Being new to the school doesn't limit coaching and scheming, and I saw very little that gives me confidence about Sumlin in that area.

Then comes the offseason. He could offset some coaching issues with recruiting. He landed a class that's ranked about what RR's classes were, and everyone hated that and thought it left us bereft of talent.

I want the guy to succeed, but I'm not seeing it.

Ok ..... but why are so many people unwilling to give Sumlin the opportunity to prove them wrong?

Are we, as Arizona fans, so conditioned to expect success that we can’t give a coach more than one year to turn around a bad trend?

[TheCat]

Because the meltdown against ASU and the lack of emotion which people interpret as indifference.

[DrWildcat]

Because the meltdown against ASU and the lack of emotion which people interpret as indifference.

The ASU meltdown was bad. No doubt.

Talking about coaching sideline demeanor is just stupid. Honestly, what do people want? Complain about Stoops and RR being out of control and now we are complaining about Sumlin being under control. Can't have it both ways so lets just stop with this. No one will care about how coaches act as long as they win. Interpreting sideline demeanor as how much a coach cares just doesn't work.

[catgrad97]

The ASU meltdown was bad enough.

Pile that on top of keeping a DC whose ceiling is mediocrity as well as the most incompetent display of major college football this century, the Houston loss, and it sealed the program's doom with me as a fan.

Not the players' fault. But Sumlin has this bad tendency to blame them for his shortfalls. Not honest.

[Merkin]

I don't think anyone is calling for Sumlin to go now are they? I just have my usual low expectations like I do pretty much every year with UA football. Let's see if he can get Tate to actually do the plays Mazzone calls for him, if not, bring in Gunnell.

In fairness, Tomey was getting a lot of grief for being so stoic too. You never know if the the Cats lost the ball on a fumble or scored a pick 6 just by looking at his demeanor.

Stoops was just out of control, and cost the team a couple of plays with his ranting at the refs.

[Chicat]

Because the meltdown against ASU and the lack of emotion which people interpret as indifference.

I remember being up 10 points heading into the 4th quarter against ASSU in RichRod’s first season and watching us give up 24 unanswered points in like 10 minutes. But I don’t remember a groundswell of people aching to ditch Rodriguez at that point.

Maybe I’m misremembering, or maybe going to a bowl that year tempered ill feelings. In any case, we let RR prove he wasn’t up to the job. I’d like to give Sumlin the same shot and the possibility of proving some of us wrong.

[Chicat]

I don't think anyone is calling for Sumlin to go now are they?

Arizona football is dead to me as long as Sumlin is coaching. here.

we are stuck with Sumlin as zero chance Heeke could even raise the buyout money from alums right now. I recognize that, but still does not change my strong opinion Sumlin has zero chance of success at U of A.

I know we can't fire Sumlin, but I want him gone.

[ChooChooCat]

Because the meltdown against ASU and the lack of emotion which people interpret as indifference.

I remember being up 10 points heading into the 4th quarter against ASSU in RichRod’s first season and watching us give up 24 unanswered points in like 10 minutes. But I don’t remember a groundswell of people aching to ditch Rodriguez at that point.

Maybe I’m misremembering, or maybe going to a bowl that year tempered ill feelings. In any case, we let RR prove he wasn’t up to the job. I’d like to give Sumlin the same shot and the possibility of proving some of us wrong.

Didn't Matt Scott fumble and that's what did us in for that game? Either way from what I recall the specific coaching strategy in the 4th quarter didn't lose us that game, while you can certainly make the argument that coaching is at least one of the two primary reasons we blew such a large lead in the 4th quarter in our last game (Tate being the other reason).

[PieceOfMeat]

Some of the coaching decision were a little head scratching at times but it wasn't that bad. Offensively, I think there were more factors than just playcalling. You know the OC doesn't make the decision on where the ball goes on a pass plays right? The repeated runs up the middle at times could be frustrating but JJ did rush for 1434 yards, 7th most in the FBS. Yates probably should be gone, but it seems like we don't have the money to get rid of him.

With recruiting, we will see. I'm pretty sure the final 247 average commit rating was higher, albeit just by the slightest margin, than any class RR brought in. If his 4star players actually play like 4star talent then we will be better off than under RR. In a short year, where on the field results were mediocre, I would say he did ok. The next two classes will be big and they will need to be better.

I think year 3 will be the deciding year for Sumlin. The doom and gloom after one year for a program that has been mediocre most of the time seems over the top to me.

I'd go so far as to say year 4 should be the deciding year. After year 4, you look at his success (or lack thereof) and where his recruiting sits and you decide.

But then I don't know his contract details off the top of my head so year 3 might be a better choice there.

Also, my opinion of giving him until year 4 is coming from a guy who thought the ASsU choke is one of the single worst chokes he's ever seen UofA football go through (and that's saying something, isn't it).

[DrWildcat]

Some of the coaching decision were a little head scratching at times but it wasn't that bad. Offensively, I think there were more factors than just playcalling. You know the OC doesn't make the decision on where the ball goes on a pass plays right? The repeated runs up the middle at times could be frustrating but JJ did rush for 1434 yards, 7th most in the FBS. Yates probably should be gone, but it seems like we don't have the money to get rid of him.

With recruiting, we will see. I'm pretty sure the final 247 average commit rating was higher, albeit just by the slightest margin, than any class RR brought in. If his 4star players actually play like 4star talent then we will be better off than under RR. In a short year, where on the field results were mediocre, I would say he did ok. The next two classes will be big and they will need to be better.

I think year 3 will be the deciding year for Sumlin. The doom and gloom after one year for a program that has been mediocre most of the time seems over the top to me.

I'd go so far as to say year 4 should be the deciding year. After year 4, you look at his success (or lack thereof) and where his recruiting sits and you decide.

But then I don't know his contract details off the top of my head so year 3 might be a better choice there.

Also, my opinion of giving him until year 4 is coming from a guy who thought the ASsU choke might be one of the single worst chokes he's ever seen UofA football go through (and that's saying something, isn't it).

I thought in terms of results, year 3 we should have a very good idea of where this is going compared to year 1. In terms of his contract, I think he gets 4 years minimum since he is on a 5 year deal. His buyout is at its lowest point at $5M once year 4 hits. I'm not sure the athletic department will even be able to buy him out in the end if it comes to that.

[Merkin]

Also, my opinion of giving him until year 4 is coming from a guy who thought the ASsU choke might be one of the single worst chokes he's ever seen UofA football go through (and that's saying something, isn't it).

Well, Stoops going into the prevent defense against Oregon end of the 3rd quarter when the UA fans were getting to rush the field is up there too.

Never understood why you build a big lead, like UA did v. ASU, then you completely change everything you are doing on offense and defense that worked, and go into something completely different.

Sumlin, like Stoops and RichRod, and probably all head coaches, is just too stubborn. After the ASU debacle, he pretty much said he would do the same thing, and the fault was on Tate for throwing that pick.

[PieceOfMeat]

Never understood why you build a big lead, like UA did v. ASU, then you completely change everything you are doing on offense and defense that worked, and go into something completely different.

Yeah I've never understood that either

[Spaceman Spiff]

I think we are all being way too presumptive and dismissive. I’m going to give Sumlin the benefit of the doubt for at least one more season and recruiting class.

Here's my issue. Last year, the coaching was bad. Offensively, the year long strategy was repetitively ramming a square peg into a round hole, and we averaged 10 fewer ppg than the year before. On D, we actually were better than under RR, but went from dumpster fire to fire in highnclass dumpster.

Being new to the school doesn't limit coaching and scheming, and I saw very little that gives me confidence about Sumlin in that area.

Then comes the offseason. He could offset some coaching issues with recruiting. He landed a class that's ranked about what RR's classes were, and everyone hated that and thought it left us bereft of talent.

I want the guy to succeed, but I'm not seeing it.

Ok ..... but why are so many people unwilling to give Sumlin the opportunity to prove them wrong?

Are we, as Arizona fans, so conditioned to expect success that we can’t give a coach more than one year to turn around a bad trend?

So, I don't think there's any other option than him having a chance to prove me wrong. I always hope our program succeeds, so that part is simple. I'm not optimistic Sumlin pulls it off, but hey...

The part I have an issue with is saying he's turning a bad trend around. We've been up and down, but Sumlin took over after 3 wins became 7 and we went to a bowl. We've been up and down enough that I'm not sure where we were trending, but I don't really agree we were on a bad trend.

When Stoops was fired with 10 straight D1 losses, that was a bad trend. When Mackovic firebombed the program, that was a bad trend. RR, it is much tougher to call.

[Newportcat]

I think we are all being way too presumptive and dismissive. I’m going to give Sumlin the benefit of the doubt for at least one more season and recruiting class.

First off Chicat I love you in a truly man bro internet friend type love. Going forward whenever we disagree, I want you to know that. Ok feel slightly awkward but anyways

One, even if anyone wanted Sumlin fired, it ain’t happening. Our athletic department is broke and strapped for cash. We could not pay $500k to buyout Yates’s last year of his contract so zero chance we will have any money to buyout Sumlin anytime soon.

(Quick side story, stoops buyout in 2011 was $250k, freaking a DC’s buyout is now double that, let that sink in in terms of how crazy things have gotten for coaching salaries)

So Sumlin is going to get time to show what he can do because there is just no money to let him go. Really freaking stupid move on heeke and Robbins part. Been a big fan of both except they completely screwed up here.

That being said, outside of giving him time for the sake of being patient, Sumlin is in a basically impossible situation. He is clearly not a good coach as good coaches don’t get fired. Again outside of gene stallings with Alabama, no coach who has been fired from previous power 5 job ever won a conference title with another power 5 school. There is not a single A&M fan who would ever want him back coaching that team.

As I have said before I think Iowa fans are still pissed Lute left. Stephen A Austin would love to have Tony Amato back. Nevada would love Jay Johnson back. Xavier fans were pissed when Sean Miller left. Augie Busch pissed of Virginia leaving. UW would probably love adia Barnes.

That to me is the ultimate sign you hired a good coach. Their previous employer misses them regardless of how small their school is. Like Mackovic, or Rich Rod, Sumlin’s previous employer never wants him back ever and quickly forgotten about him.

Arizona is an extremely difficult job. It just is. It’s why we have not won an outright conference championship since 1941. We have to out coach, our recruit, and out develop our players to stand a chance of success. So clear we have someone who is not a good coach leading us. And someone who is supposedly a great recruiter but so far those results are very iffy

Now couple all this with a lack of revenues to bring and keep top assistant coaches. Our assistant coaching pool salaries is $3M. Dave Aranda DC from LSU makes $2.4M alone.

And again, majority of the fan base while maybe not wanting him fired has lost interest in Sumlin and sees Mackovic and Rich Rod all over again. Just look on the sentiment on this board. He had two chances against BYU and ASU where basically we had over 50k fans which to me is basically a sell out and both times our fans left pissed off.

Everything is stacked again him.

So yes we have to keep him but his odds of success are so slim. If he was a stock I would not invest in him and candidly would be shorting the crap out of him.

FYI serving jury duty today so have too much free time

[Newportcat]

I think we are all being way too presumptive and dismissive. I’m going to give Sumlin the benefit of the doubt for at least one more season and recruiting class.

Here's my issue. Last year, the coaching was bad. Offensively, the year long strategy was repetitively ramming a square peg into a round hole, and we averaged 10 fewer ppg than the year before. On D, we actually were better than under RR, but went from dumpster fire to fire in highnclass dumpster.

Being new to the school doesn't limit coaching and scheming, and I saw very little that gives me confidence about Sumlin in that area.

Then comes the offseason. He could offset some coaching issues with recruiting. He landed a class that's ranked about what RR's classes were, and everyone hated that and thought it left us bereft of talent.

I want the guy to succeed, but I'm not seeing it.

Ok ..... but why are so many people unwilling to give Sumlin the opportunity to prove them wrong?

Are we, as Arizona fans, so conditioned to expect success that we can’t give a coach more than one year to turn around a bad trend?

So, I don't think there's any other option than him having a chance to prove me wrong. I always hope our program succeeds, so that part is simple. I'm not optimistic Sumlin pulls it off, but hey...

The part I have an issue with is saying he's turning a bad trend around. We've been up and down, but Sumlin took over after 3 wins became 7 and we went to a bowl. We've been up and down enough that I'm not sure where we were trending, but I don't really agree we were on a bad trend.

When Stoops was fired with 10 straight D1 losses, that was a bad trend. When Mackovic firebombed the program, that was a bad trend. RR, it is much tougher to call.

We had our starting QB on the cover of SI before the season started. We were considered a dark horse contender in a very weak PAC 12 with both usc and UCLA finishing with losing records which I am not sure has ever happened. We had 17 starters back from a team that had a winning record in the PAC 12. Our issue was offensive line but candidly they performed well. And great schedule

So challenge is average fan saw us on the uptick. Heck I was even a bit optimistic coming into this year and was tough to tune out the team because I thought ok this actually might be a year we show up.

Fans bought in and then were very disappointed. That is so tough to win back at a place like Arizona.

And to me it shows poor coaching. It’s why as Merlin pointed out he was given a D and 18 out of 20 for best new coaches. Now he has a lame duck QB, lost host two best assistants, had to keep his terrible DC, and has a worse schedule

Again

[DrWildcat]

So Sumlin is going to get time to show what he can do because there is just no money to let him go. Really freaking stupid move on heeke and Robbins part. Been a big fan of both except they completely screwed up here.

Seems like Sumlin has a pretty average contract for a P5 coach. Something like 9th highest paid PAC12 coach right now. Granted his salary will go up but the buyout comes down. $5M buyout near the end isn't huge when you start looking at other P5 deals either. So if we went a different route we save something like $5M in salary (and maybe another $3M on a buyout if used) over a 5 year deal. Is that a make or break amount over 5 years? If so, the argument could be made that we shouldn't have paid RichRod to go away considering the results might not of changed very much in the short term.

[ChooChooCat]

One thing I'm confident of, by the time Sumlin's initial contract at Arizona is about to be up he'll have a new boss, so that always leaves job statuses up in the air.

[azcat49]

Whoa Choo, dropping a bomb. Heeke not liked?

[Newportcat]

So Sumlin is going to get time to show what he can do because there is just no money to let him go. Really freaking stupid move on heeke and Robbins part. Been a big fan of both except they completely screwed up here.

Seems like Sumlin has a pretty average contract for a P5 coach. Something like 9th highest paid PAC12 coach right now. Granted his salary will go up but the buyout comes down. $5M buyout near the end isn't huge when you start looking at other P5 deals either. So if we went a different route we save something like $5M in salary (and maybe another $3M on a buyout if used) over a 5 year deal. Is that a make or break amount over 5 years? If so, the argument could be made that we shouldn't have paid RichRod to go away considering the results might not of changed very much in the short term.

His initial salary isn’t high but that’s because he got $12m from A&M this year and was the highest paid coach in America (seriously). But a program like ours can’t afford market buyouts and a coach from a lower level would not have able to demand it

You second point is exactly right outside of Rich Rod being a complete scumbag. We fired a coach who was coming off a winning record in the PAC 12. That rarely happens at our school. But everyone hated rich Rod. He had built no alliegiances to any major alums outside of Humberto Lopez from what I heard. And Robbins and Heeke wanted to make a splash.

If rich Rod was a good guy like Tomey, he wouldn’t have been fired

[ChooChooCat]

Whoa Choi, dropping a bomb. Heeke not liked?

You don't have to dislike someone to not give them another contract. You could just be absolutely useless and easily replaceable.

[Newportcat]

Whoa Choo, dropping a bomb. Heeke not liked?

Not from what I have heard

I’ve never met him but lately heard bad things, like in over his head, not that likeable etc

Remember, Robbins didn’t hire him and Robbins is much more involved with athletics. That’s a good and bad thing ie kept Miller and pursued facts but pushed for Sumlin when he did not know what was truly right for us as an outsider

This is all second hand information but I have not heard anything good about Heeke especially in terms of running our program. I think it’s obvious he won’t be renewed

Remember it’s not like central Michigan was some special athletic department under Heeke. To think in 2010 we took a sitting AD from an SEC program to come to Arizona. That ain’t happening anytime soon

[Chicat]

Newport, while I can appreciate that the historical trend of retreads vs. up-&-comers is not working in Sumlin’s favor, the basic premise is that no coach should ever get a second shot at a school like Arizona after having been fired. Which would seem to narrow our choices down to an untenable position:

Can’t have been fired.
Can’t be from a school so small he’s never recruited P5 talent.
Must have west coast recruiting connections.
Must run an entertaining system.
Must be able to go into homes of recruits and have instant respect.

I don’t know who that guy was last year. Josh Heupel maybe?

[ChooChooCat]

Whoa Choo, dropping a bomb. Heeke not liked?

Not from what I have heard

I’ve never met him but lately heard bad things, like in over his head, not that likeable etc

Remember, Robbins didn’t hire him and Robbins is much more involved with athletics. That’s a good and bad thing ie kept Miller and pursued facts but pushed for Sumlin when he did not know what was truly right for us as an outsider

This is all second hand information but I have not heard anything good about Heeke especially in terms of running our program

Ultimately look at our basketball program, has there been an ounce of quality damage control done in the public landscape? The program has had its name dragged through mud via bullshit hit piece after bullshit hit piece. A worthwhile AD would get out in front of that.

If you guys remember correctly Sean Miller publicly thanked Robbins and didn't mention Heeke after the ESPN schadenfreude. That wasn't an oversight.

[Newportcat]

Newport, while I can appreciate that the historical trend of retreads vs. up-&-comers is not working in Sumlin’s favor, the basic premise is that no coach should ever get a second shot at a school like Arizona after having been fired. Which would seem to narrow our choices down to an untenable position:

Can’t have been fired.
Can’t be from a school so small he’s never recruited P5 talent.
Must have west coast recruiting connections.
Must run an entertaining system.
Must be able to go into homes of recruits and have instant respect.

I don’t know who that guy was last year. Josh Heupel maybe?

And hence why Arizona is such a difficult job and we have fired our last four coaches and hasn’t won an outright conference title since 1941. We are trying to find a needle in a hay stack

We did it with Smith and Tomey so it’s not impossible but even more difficult now

[Chicat]

Newport, while I can appreciate that the historical trend of retreads vs. up-&-comers is not working in Sumlin’s favor, the basic premise is that no coach should ever get a second shot at a school like Arizona after having been fired. Which would seem to narrow our choices down to an untenable position:

Can’t have been fired.
Can’t be from a school so small he’s never recruited P5 talent.
Must have west coast recruiting connections.
Must run an entertaining system.
Must be able to go into homes of recruits and have instant respect.

I don’t know who that guy was last year. Josh Heupel maybe?

And hence why Arizona is such a difficult job and we have fired our last four coaches and hasn’t won an outright conference title since 1941

And hence why I’m still on the Sumlin bandwagon and rooting hard for him to buck the shitty retread trend.

[ChooChooCat]

Newport, while I can appreciate that the historical trend of retreads vs. up-&-comers is not working in Sumlin’s favor, the basic premise is that no coach should ever get a second shot at a school like Arizona after having been fired. Which would seem to narrow our choices down to an untenable position:

Can’t have been fired.
Can’t be from a school so small he’s never recruited P5 talent.
Must have west coast recruiting connections.
Must run an entertaining system.
Must be able to go into homes of recruits and have instant respect.

I don’t know who that guy was last year. Josh Heupel maybe?

And hence why Arizona is such a difficult job and we have fired our last four coaches and hasn’t won an outright conference title since 1941. We are trying to find a needle in a hay stack

We did it with Smith and Tomey so it’s not impossible but even more difficult now

Neither were retreads. Interesting.

[Newportcat]

Newport, while I can appreciate that the historical trend of retreads vs. up-&-comers is not working in Sumlin’s favor, the basic premise is that no coach should ever get a second shot at a school like Arizona after having been fired. Which would seem to narrow our choices down to an untenable position:

Can’t have been fired.
Can’t be from a school so small he’s never recruited P5 talent.
Must have west coast recruiting connections.
Must run an entertaining system.
Must be able to go into homes of recruits and have instant respect.

I don’t know who that guy was last year. Josh Heupel maybe?

And hence why Arizona is such a difficult job and we have fired our last four coaches and hasn’t won an outright conference title since 1941

And hence why I’m still on the Sumlin bandwagon and rooting hard for him to buck the shitty retread trend.

Totally fine to be so but understand you are buying stock in sears. Cheer hard but all logic and reason suggest it will not work out well so don’t be disappointed when the stock sucks and you and I aren’t sharing beers at the rose bowl together anytime soon. That is the next Arizona game I will attend live as figure too good a chance to meet a bunch of people from these boards

[Newportcat]

Newport, while I can appreciate that the historical trend of retreads vs. up-&-comers is not working in Sumlin’s favor, the basic premise is that no coach should ever get a second shot at a school like Arizona after having been fired. Which would seem to narrow our choices down to an untenable position:

Can’t have been fired.
Can’t be from a school so small he’s never recruited P5 talent.
Must have west coast recruiting connections.
Must run an entertaining system.
Must be able to go into homes of recruits and have instant respect.

I don’t know who that guy was last year. Josh Heupel maybe?

And hence why Arizona is such a difficult job and we have fired our last four coaches and hasn’t won an outright conference title since 1941. We are trying to find a needle in a hay stack

We did it with Smith and Tomey so it’s not impossible but even more difficult now

Neither were retreads. Interesting.

Shocking right. Both literally checked all the boxes above outside of entertaining system though would argue the tough defense system actually plays well at an Arizona. Tough to say that 1993 playing ridiculous defense wasn’t entertaining

In hindsight I can see why Tomey was pushing coach Ken from navy so hard

[Chicat]

Newport, while I can appreciate that the historical trend of retreads vs. up-&-comers is not working in Sumlin’s favor, the basic premise is that no coach should ever get a second shot at a school like Arizona after having been fired. Which would seem to narrow our choices down to an untenable position:

Can’t have been fired.
Can’t be from a school so small he’s never recruited P5 talent.
Must have west coast recruiting connections.
Must run an entertaining system.
Must be able to go into homes of recruits and have instant respect.

I don’t know who that guy was last year. Josh Heupel maybe?

And hence why Arizona is such a difficult job and we have fired our last four coaches and hasn’t won an outright conference title since 1941

And hence why I’m still on the Sumlin bandwagon and rooting hard for him to buck the shitty retread trend.

Totally fine to be so but understand you are buying stock in sears

Bad analogy. I’m not buying anything at all. It costs me absolutely nothing either way.

[Newportcat]

Newport, while I can appreciate that the historical trend of retreads vs. up-&-comers is not working in Sumlin’s favor, the basic premise is that no coach should ever get a second shot at a school like Arizona after having been fired. Which would seem to narrow our choices down to an untenable position:

Can’t have been fired.
Can’t be from a school so small he’s never recruited P5 talent.
Must have west coast recruiting connections.
Must run an entertaining system.
Must be able to go into homes of recruits and have instant respect.

I don’t know who that guy was last year. Josh Heupel maybe?

And hence why Arizona is such a difficult job and we have fired our last four coaches and hasn’t won an outright conference title since 1941

And hence why I’m still on the Sumlin bandwagon and rooting hard for him to buck the shitty retread trend.

Totally fine to be so but understand you are buying stock in sears

Bad analogy. I’m not buying anything at all. It costs me absolutely nothing either way.

You do, now maybe you don’t invest money since you live in Chicago and can’t buy tickets but you invest time. Life’s most precious resource. To root for him hard assumes you will watch games hoping he wins. That’s a bad investment decision is what I am saying. Actually worse then investing in sears because then you could at least write off the loss. You can’t right off time

[Chicat]

Totally fine to be so but understand you are buying stock in sears

Bad analogy. I’m not buying anything at all. It costs me absolutely nothing either way.

You do, now maybe you don’t invest money since you live in Chicago and can’t buy tickets but you invest time. Life’s most precious resource. To root for him hard assumes you will watch games hoping he wins. That’s a bad investment decision is what I am saying. Actually worse then investing in sears because then you could at least write off the loss. You can’t right off time

Even when I do tune in (rare nowadays), do you think I could be curing cancer or bonding with my kids after midnight on a fall Saturday? Only thing I’m giving up is watching the replay of Live PD.

[Newportcat]

Touché but Live PD is ten times better then Arizona football FYI

And the better analogy is Robbins and Heeke bought stock in Sears and fans are stuck with the decision

[Newportcat]

Whoa Choo, dropping a bomb. Heeke not liked?

Not from what I have heard

I’ve never met him but lately heard bad things, like in over his head, not that likeable etc

Remember, Robbins didn’t hire him and Robbins is much more involved with athletics. That’s a good and bad thing ie kept Miller and pursued facts but pushed for Sumlin when he did not know what was truly right for us as an outsider

This is all second hand information but I have not heard anything good about Heeke especially in terms of running our program

Ultimately look at our basketball program, has there been an ounce of quality damage control done in the public landscape? The program has had its name dragged through mud via bullshit hit piece after bullshit hit piece. A worthwhile AD would get out in front of that.

If you guys remember correctly Sean Miller publicly thanked Robbins and didn't mention Heeke after the ESPN schadenfreude. That wasn't an oversight.

Totally true and had not heard that but it is right. I remember when Miller thanked Robbins it kind of surprised me he didn't thank Heeke. Now makes sense. Robbins feels like he would take a Bullet for Miller...Heeke not so much at all candidly. Which is so dumb to me as if you are the AD at Arizona, you protect the basketball program at all costs. Byrne learned real quick in 2011 how much power good basketball coaches have at Arizona and got in-line quickly.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Newport, while I can appreciate that the historical trend of retreads vs. up-&-comers is not working in Sumlin’s favor, the basic premise is that no coach should ever get a second shot at a school like Arizona after having been fired. Which would seem to narrow our choices down to an untenable position:

Can’t have been fired.
Can’t be from a school so small he’s never recruited P5 talent.
Must have west coast recruiting connections.
Must run an entertaining system.
Must be able to go into homes of recruits and have instant respect.

I don’t know who that guy was last year. Josh Heupel maybe?

I could care less about the last four. Coaches usually have something to prove.

On being fired, I don't necessarily think it disqualifies you. What I don't like about it is when you see the same qualities that got someone previously fired manifest at Arizona. Sumlin got a long run at aTm and certain qualities got him fired, primarily not maximizing his talent. Then, first year here, Tate regresses horribly and our players underperform.

It worries me the issue is intractable. If someone got fired and learned from it, ok, but I'm not seeing what about Arizona Sumlin is different from aTm Sumlin.

[azcat49]

I asked my Texas A&M family about why Sumlinngot fired and they ALL said he NEVER beat his rival and he was far too unemotional about it. They all said, great recruiter, especially at the JUCO ranks.

[AZCatGirl]

I asked my Texas A&M family about why Sumlinngot fired and they ALL said he NEVER beat his rival and he was far too unemotional about it. They all said, great recruiter, especially at the JUCO ranks.

If unemotional losses to ASU become a yearly thing he's going to lose fans very quickly.

[Newportcat]

Newport, while I can appreciate that the historical trend of retreads vs. up-&-comers is not working in Sumlin’s favor, the basic premise is that no coach should ever get a second shot at a school like Arizona after having been fired. Which would seem to narrow our choices down to an untenable position:

Can’t have been fired.
Can’t be from a school so small he’s never recruited P5 talent.
Must have west coast recruiting connections.
Must run an entertaining system.
Must be able to go into homes of recruits and have instant respect.

I don’t know who that guy was last year. Josh Heupel maybe?

I could care less about the last four. Coaches usually have something to prove.

On being fired, I don't necessarily think it disqualifies you. What I don't like about it is when you see the same qualities that got someone previously fired manifest at Arizona. Sumlin got a long run at aTm and certain qualities got him fired, primarily not maximizing his talent. Then, first year here, Tate regresses horribly and our players underperform.

It worries me the issue is intractable. If someone got fired and learned from it, ok, but I'm not seeing what about Arizona Sumlin is different from aTm Sumlin.

History has shown in college football coaches who got fired 99.9% of the time fail at the next job because they don’t change or adapt. This is before coaches who coach at a Power 5 jobs basically now all walk away rich like Sumlin and Rich Rod did. So to me that trend is even going to be worse.

I think it should disqualify a candidate for sure. It makes logical sense too especially at a program like Arizona. If you can’t win big at Texas, Michigan, or Texas A&M, all top 10 jobs with all the resources and advantages in the world, how can you ever think you could win big at Arizona

Look at Kentucky and Mark Stoops. Took a big risk and has worked out well

Programs like Arizona football need to take massive but calculated risks with their football coaching hires if the program ever wants to make a rose bowl. They certainly should never make a hire hoping to buck a trend. That is beyond stupid as Arizona football has so many things working against it.

Again, it was a massive risk to hire tony amato from Stephan a Austin as our soccer coach. A small school coach from Texas who was very young. Sure he was successful but not at a big stage and not really on the west coast.

And look how that has worked out. Done fantastic, honestly given the structural issues with Arizona soccer has been a massive home run. Same rules apply for football

And remember bucking a trend is very different then doing something that has literally only worked once. That’s not a trend, that’s just a fact of life

[DrWildcat]

History has shown in college football coaches who got fired 99.9% of the time fail at the next job because they don’t change or adapt. This is before coaches who coach at a Power 5 jobs basically now all walk away rich like Sumlin and Rich Rod did. So to me that trend is even going to be worse.

I think it should disqualify a candidate for sure. It makes logical sense too especially at a program like Arizona. If you can’t win big at Texas, Michigan, or Texas A&M, all top 10 jobs with all the resources and advantages in the world, how can you ever think you could win big at Arizona

Look at Kentucky and Mark Stoops. Took a big risk and has worked out well

Programs like Arizona football need to take massive but calculated risks with their football coaching hires if the program ever wants to make a rose bowl. They certainly should never make a hire hoping to buck a trend. That is beyond stupid as Arizona football has so many things working against it.

Again, it was a massive risk to hire tony amato from Stephan a Austin as our soccer coach. A small school coach from Texas who was very young. Sure he was successful but not at a big stage and not really on the west coast.

And look how that has worked out. Done fantastic, honestly given the structural issues with Arizona soccer has been a massive home run. Same rules apply for football

And remember bucking a trend is very different then doing something that has literally only worked once. That’s not a trend, that’s just a fact of life

So Sumlin was 51-26 at A&M but generally around .500 in conference. He was in the toughest division in college and he generally lost to Alabama and LSU (both clearly better programs than A&M) and then the rotating Auburn, Ole Miss type teams who also had some great recruits. Would we punish Sumlin for that here? A&M wants to be and thinks they are better than these other SEC west program (minus Alabama) but they're really not. The exception is Ole Miss who was cheating at the time. Granted records don't tell the whole story but lets not act like he was just bombing out.

RichRod now was absolutely terrible at Michigan before we hired him. Would you consider RichRod a success in terms of on the field results? Pretty good win percentage for an Arizona coach at 43-35. I'm not saying that I liked RichRod and I think he peaked but what are we going to consider a success? Is the Rose Bowl the only thing we will accept? If that is the case, all coaches have failed so I guess it is just a fact of life.

I'm not saying you're wrong to advocate for the young up and coming coach but stating that is the only way like it is a given that we will become more relevant going that route is questionable. The facts of life say we are both wrong. Also, lets not compare a soccer hire to football which comes with very little risk either way for the athletic department. How much did revenue or lack there of change with that hire?

[Chicat]

History has shown in college football coaches who got fired 99.9% of the time fail at the next job because they don’t change or adapt.

73.6% of all statistics are made up.

Look, Newport you’re shouting into the abyss. You’re a year too late to affect the coaching hire, and you’re even too late to save your own fandom! If Sumlin somehow was that one percenter, would you even notice?

[Spaceman Spiff]

History has shown in college football coaches who got fired 99.9% of the time fail at the next job because they don’t change or adapt.

73.6% of all statistics are made up.

Look, Newport you’re shouting into the abyss. You’re a year too late to affect the coaching hire, and you’re even too late to save your own fandom! If Sumlin somehow was that one percenter, would you even notice?

I think it's fair to debate whether we effed up the Sumlin hire. We all know it won't change anything, but this board is about debate.

Is Sumlin the 1% type who learns and evolves? I don't think Year 1 is promising. He'll get more time to show it, because we have no choice, but that doesn't mean we have to table debating the wisdom of hiring him.

If we demonstrate better coaching, player development or score a better recruiting class, I'm open to him turning it around.

[PieceOfMeat]

Again outside of gene stallings with Alabama, no coach who has been fired from previous power 5 job ever won a conference title with another power 5 school.

Meant to ask this before but got busy and forgot: Is this a researched and verified tidbit of information?

It's kind of an amazing thing if true.

[Merkin]

Is Sumlin the 1% type who learns and evolves? I don't think Year 1 is promising.

Let's see if he goes into the prevent offense/defense end of the 3rd quarter with a big lead. Like he said after the ASU debacle, it wasn't that decision, it was the Tate pick that cost the game.

It took the Oregon fiasco for Stoops to stop doing that, so maybe Sumlin will learn from ASU when he has time to think about it.

[Chicat]

History has shown in college football coaches who got fired 99.9% of the time fail at the next job because they don’t change or adapt.

73.6% of all statistics are made up.

Look, Newport you’re shouting into the abyss. You’re a year too late to affect the coaching hire, and you’re even too late to save your own fandom! If Sumlin somehow was that one percenter, would you even notice?

I think it's fair to debate whether we effed up the Sumlin hire. We all know it won't change anything, but this board is about debate.

Is Sumlin the 1% type who learns and evolves? I don't think Year 1 is promising. He'll get more time to show it, because we have no choice, but that doesn't mean we have to table debating the wisdom of hiring him.

If we demonstrate better coaching, player development or score a better recruiting class, I'm open to him turning it around.

It may be a fair debate, but it’s ultimately a useless one until we are doing another coaching search. Unless you turned a Delorean into a time machine and you’re just now getting around to telling us.

The better debate is what Sumlin needs to do to make Arizona a success.

[Spaceman Spiff]

History has shown in college football coaches who got fired 99.9% of the time fail at the next job because they don’t change or adapt.

73.6% of all statistics are made up.

Look, Newport you’re shouting into the abyss. You’re a year too late to affect the coaching hire, and you’re even too late to save your own fandom! If Sumlin somehow was that one percenter, would you even notice?

I think it's fair to debate whether we effed up the Sumlin hire. We all know it won't change anything, but this board is about debate.

Is Sumlin the 1% type who learns and evolves? I don't think Year 1 is promising. He'll get more time to show it, because we have no choice, but that doesn't mean we have to table debating the wisdom of hiring him.

If we demonstrate better coaching, player development or score a better recruiting class, I'm open to him turning it around.

It may be a fair debate, but it’s ultimately a useless one until we are doing another coaching search. Unless you turned a Delorean into a time machine and you’re just now getting around to telling us.

The better debate is what Sumlin needs to do to make Arizona a success.

Hey, I was led to believe useless debates were the lifeblood of sports message boards. Were we supposed to be convincing standers to sit and tilt to one side to wipe their butts after a deuce this whole time?

Sumlin needs to coach better, develop better and recruit better. Getting Tate into more read options to force the D to put 8 in the box would be one huge start. I know we'll never be top ten in recruiting, but getting around #25-30 would be big for Sumlin's long term success.

[Chicat]

Hey, I was led to believe useless debates were the lifeblood of sports message boards. Were we supposed to be convincing standers to sit and tilt to one side to wipe their butts after a deuce this whole time?

Yes, but not after the dookie had already been flushed down the pipes.

Sumlin needs to coach better, develop better and recruit better. Getting Tate into more read options to force the D to put 8 in the box would be one huge start. I know we'll never be top ten in recruiting, but getting around #25-30 would be big for Sumlin's long term success.

Coach better? Yes

Recruit better? Yes & Yes

Develop better? Let’s give the guy a couple minutes before we start dinging him for not developing players he’s been around .... *checks notes* ...... one season.