ASU blows

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:01 am

Sendek was a really exciting and promising hire. He replaced Rob Evans, who came to ASU after bringing Ole Miss to two straight tourney appearances. He echoed the big dreams of ASU Athletics, and talked about teaching the PAC-10 what it means to play defense. And then he mysteriously led ASU to an 8 year stretch of (at best) mediocrity. ASU Athletics stated bigger goals, so they reached out and nabbed a solid coach from NC State. And Sendek couldn't move ASU in direction they hoped. So they fire Sendek and go back to the big talk of big aspirations again. Now it's about Bobby Hurley's pedigree and potential.

It's bad enough to be in a conference dominated by two programs, but it's worse to be USC and ASU, trying to go toe-to-toe with UCLA and Arizona in their own back yard. Fred Snowden built Arizona's foundation back in the WAC days, and Arizona truly built on that foundation. ASU missed its chance to build something almost 40 years ago. The mediocrity is reified. You can't change a culture and build success by bringing in promising coaches with the expectations that they'll turn the program around. You're just setting up the expectations that will get that coach fired. Hopefully Hurley can land ASU as the fifth PAC team in the tourney and immediately jump to another program where he can sustain some success.

ZONACAT · Post by **ZONACAT** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:11 am

azcat34 wrote:
ZONACAT wrote:
azcat34 wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:Can someone fill me in on their "great" coach? I mean he's won a total of 42 games more than you or I.

I mean, they shipped off a guy with 402 wins for someone with 10% of that. Perhaps he is, but ASU isn't where someone goes to prove they are a great coach. It's where coaches go to be forgotten and ignored.
We can bash ASU all we want, and for sure they make it pretty easy but this is a pretty ridiculous post.

Herb was locked into mediocrity and Hurley just took Buffalo to the NCAA Tournament and played West Virginia pretty damn competitively. That is a lot more than Herb can ever say. He lucked into a loophole to get Harden to campus and that was the only way he got his one tournament win at ASU.

Hurley is definitely unproven, but so is every coach until they get an opportunity.

This is a clear upgrade over Herb, I don't know how anyone can say otherwise.
Herb made five straight NCAAT at a ACC school before Arizona State hired him, take away Hurley's name and tell me what you've got. This isn't a clear upgrade, this is a desperate gamble where the upside is "if he wins enough he gets an ACC job in a few years."

Herb is a good coach, that was dragged down by the negative vortex that is Arizona State basketball. It'll suck down Hurley with ease.
Buffalo had never made the tournament or won their conference until Hurley got there and won back to back conference titles. Not exactly was recruiting to some basketball mecca. He also was recruiting to Buffalo, NY, have you been there? Tempe is a million times better.

I'm not going to say Hurley is a lock to start dominating the Pac-12 and I definitely think he will bolt to the first east coast opportunity if he does reasonably well, but I think he is a clear upgrade over Herb at this point. Herb is a good coach and solid guy is seems, but there was nothing going on there and now they have someone with at least some potential to get after it and win a little bit.

Anderson seems to be doing well on the fundraising front too, so perhaps they can upgrade their horrid facilities.

Anyways, I just want ASU to be competitive so they aren't a shitty loss for Arizona when they inevitably play 100x better at Wells Fargo every year than every other game.

Compare Hurley to Enfield and Keno Davis. Same category for me.

azthrillhouse · Post by **azthrillhouse** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:44 am

Longhorned wrote: The mediocrity is reified. You can't change a culture and build success by bringing in promising coaches with the expectations that they'll turn the program around.

Scummy Dick Douglas · Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:47 pm

$$$ tells how serious a school takes a particular sport. For ASU, they take football and baseball seriously, while basketball is very much an after thought.

dirtbags · Post by **dirtbags** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:22 am

+wrestling

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:50 am

Hurley has got two years of coaching someone else's kids on his résumé. That's it. Hiring that candidate profile at a major conference basketball program reeks of desperation, because no, Hurley is not obviously an upgrade over Sendek. He may be the next Calipari. He may be the next Sendek. But he may also be the next Dave Bliss.

azcat34 · Post by **azcat34** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:11 am

Puerco wrote:Hurley has got two years of coaching someone else's kids on his résumé. That's it. Hiring that candidate profile at a major conference basketball program reeks of desperation, because no, Hurley is not obviously an upgrade over Sendek. He may be the next Calipari. He may be the next Sendek. But he may also be the next Dave Bliss.

Hurley recruited 9 of the 11 players on his roster this year. Is the hiring ok now?

BBQ wildcat · Post by **BBQ wildcat** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:44 am

When I looked at his roster, there were 5 freshmen and 1 sophomore (5 of them were guards), so I'm wondering how he recruited the juniors and seniors.

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:58 am

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

azcat34 · Post by **azcat34** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:07 am

BBQ wildcat wrote:When I looked at his roster, there were 5 freshmen and 1 sophomore (5 of them were guards), so I'm wondering how he recruited the juniors and seniors.

3 juniors were from the JC ranks, which means that this was their first year at Buffalo this past season.

PieceOfMeat · Post by **PieceOfMeat** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:18 am

I don't know what the reason is for your hardon over Hurley azcat34, but even if he recruited all of his buffalo players, he's still not a "clear" upgrade over Sendek. All he hasright now is 2 years experience, and some projected potential. Sendek went to ASsU with a lot more history and results than Hurley is. Hurley's team played a good team close int he tourney? Is that really supposed to impress all that much? Sendek beat a highly rated AZ team.

I'm just saying that I don't see how this can be viewed as a "clear" upgrade, or a "great" hire. A hire with potential? Sure. A risk with the possibility of reward? Sure.

Katzenfreund · Post by **Katzenfreund** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:48 am

azcat34 · Post by **azcat34** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:07 pm

PieceOfMeat wrote:I don't know what the reason is for your hardon over Hurley azcat34, but even if he recruited all of his buffalo players, he's still not a "clear" upgrade over Sendek. All he hasright now is 2 years experience, and some projected potential. Sendek went to ASsU with a lot more history and results than Hurley is. Hurley's team played a good team close int he tourney? Is that really supposed to impress all that much? Sendek beat a highly rated AZ team.

I'm just saying that I don't see how this can be viewed as a "clear" upgrade, or a "great" hire. A hire with potential? Sure. A risk with the possibility of reward? Sure.

Not sure how my posts equate to having a hard-on for Hurley, by pointing out that he recruited his own players when Puerco said he had success with someone else's players. That was just false and frankly I haven't seen a real convincing reason why this wasn't a great hire for ASU. The operative words there being "for ASU".

You are correct he only has two years of head coaching experience, but he also spent another three assisting under his brother who has done very well for himself as well at school's that I wouldn't exactly consider traditional powerhouses (Wagner and URI). It probably won't be long before Dan Hurley has a Power 5 job as well. Not to mention Bobby Hurley has had a highly successful coach as a father his entire life. Dare I say it, it almost sounds a lot like Sean and Archie Miller.

Now I am not saying Dan/Bobby Hurley will be the next version of Sean/Archie Miller, but they definitely look very promising. Hurley helped recruited players to URI that almost made the tournament this year, and recruited a lot of players to Buffalo that did make the tournament. To me that is impressive in your five years of coaching at schools that have little to no basketball tradition. To me that shows that you are recruiting good players in comparison to the rest of your league or developing them very well or both.

Additionally, Buffalo had some pretty impressive performances this year on the road.

They led at Wisconsin at halftime this year: http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400587471

They were the only team if my memory serves to lead UK at halftime at Rupp this year by 5 no less: http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400587392

He also had the close tournament game this year against West Virginia that was tied with a few minutes left.

Those are his only three games against ranked teams this year, none at home obviously. I don't see how that isn't really good coaching with his talent against the three teams mentioned. Certainly if he can get Buffalo to lead against two Final Four teams this year on the road, he can squeak out some wins for Arizona State on the road against his Pac-12 competition?

Lastly, Herb had 1 tournament win in 9 years as coach and it took getting an NBA MVP candidate to Tempe for him to even get that one. I think the combination of Hurley's impressive brief career and not exactly the highest bar to jump over to exceed Herb makes this a great calculated risk for ASU.

I really don't see how all the posters here can applaud Archie when he gets the Dayton job as a great hire and say Hurley is a huge risk. To me they are pretty similar, and Dayton additionally has a better basketball history than ASU and should in turn attracted a higher level of candidates.

I for one was shocked that Hurley even took the ASU job, I thought another run with Buffalo with his young team that had one senior that didn't play would have had him positioned for better jobs than ASU's next summer.

Thesis over.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:26 pm

Hurley is a huge risk. End of story. Barely has 4 years of coaching experience total.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:51 pm

I agree with 34. I think given the circumstances, this was a great hire for ASSU. He comes from a coaching family and watched Coach K lead a program for years. That is a lot like Sean and Archie.

He brings an urgency and intensity to the ASSU program that very much is in need of that. The gamble is not that he can coach, but is he able to recruit to ASSU and will there fans step up.

Finally I think he took the job because he had some business failures. It takes a ton of dough to be in the horse business and coaching at Buffalo won't feed that passion. He would have accepted the first power conference job offered I believe. I also think his statement of ASSU being a destination job is fantasy. He will be gone with any kind of success sooner rather then later

This hie is very risky on both sides as their are a lot of variables but I think ASSU will see an uptick in performance, support, recruiting and tournament opportunities

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:07 pm

When he said "destination job" I just figured he meant he had to travel a bit to get there. Like a signal to his next employer that he's not afraid of taking an airplane ride to settle into his next new office.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:35 pm

Quick note, Sam Duane who coaches at Corona Del Sol and has that legacy 5 star recruit just resigned. Any guess as to where he will be an assistant to?

And so it begins

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:37 pm

Chicat wrote:When he said "destination job" I just figured he meant he had to travel a bit to get there. Like a signal to his next employer that he's not afraid of taking an airplane ride to settle into his next new office.

Didn't Fraud Graham mention destination job?

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:40 pm

azcat49 wrote:Quick note, Sam Duane who coaches at Corona Del Sol and has that legacy 5 star recruit just resigned. Any guess as to where he will be an assistant to?

And so it begins

Who is the recruit?

dirtbags · Post by **dirtbags** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:44 pm

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:46 pm

azgreg wrote:
Chicat wrote:When he said "destination job" I just figured he meant he had to travel a bit to get there. Like a signal to his next employer that he's not afraid of taking an airplane ride to settle into his next new office.
Didn't Fraud Graham mention destination job?

I believe he said "Dream Job" which is exactly what he said about Pitt and Tulsa.

UAEebs86 · Post by **UAEebs86** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:48 pm

dirtbags wrote:mb3?

Bagley and Barcello.

Both at Corona del Sol

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:50 pm

Like EEBS said, it is Barcelo and Bagley. Both are 5 stars and Bagley might be the top player in the country.....now

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:55 pm

Lmao. Didnt see that coming

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:06 pm

I doubt this will have much of an effect on Bagley or Barcello since they'll have a different coach for multiple years. Obviously the relationship to Duane will still exist, but it's not like he'll be able to be in their ear all day every day like he could have been as their coach.

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:22 pm

Chicat wrote:I doubt this will have much of an effect on Bagley or Barcello since they'll have a different coach for multiple years. Obviously the relationship to Duane will still exist, but it's not like he'll be able to be in their ear all day every day like he could have been as their coach.

So we're talkin about:

Barcello the 59th rated player in the 2017 class? 59th? That doesn't really feel like a thing.

Bagley is a thing. Could be best player in the class. Of 2018. 2018. That's a long time from now to be waiting for a kid that won't come to your crap school and even if he did will only be there for one year.

The value here might be getting both these guys to commit right now so that creates some kind of buzz. But as far as what kind of impact they will have on wins/losses at ASU....it's probably pretty marginal and at best happening in 2018.

Machina · Post by **Machina** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:16 pm

Smart move by assu but hopefully it does not pan Out. Can Miller offer him something before he gets to ASU?

Post by **UAdevil** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:47 pm

Machina wrote:Smart move by assu but hopefully it does not pan Out. Can Miller offer him something before he gets to ASU?

Yeah, the prospect of actually winning a high percentage of games.

Fishclamps · Post by **Fishclamps** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:38 pm

I think the hire is a better move for ASUS considering the other options were the retreads. At least now they're gambling instead of sticking their head in the sand and pretending mediocre coaches would get them anywhere.

Who knows if it'll pan out. I personally wouldn't mind seeing them be somewhat successful just so we can crush actual hopes. It worked out perfectly last year for football and made that win so much better.

FightWildcatsFight · Post by **FightWildcatsFight** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:05 pm

Spoke to some ASU students and alumni.

Word is, students still couldn't care less about ASU basketball.

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:31 pm

FightWildcatsFight wrote:Spoke to some ASU students and alumni.

Word is, students still couldn't care less about ASU basketball.

It will take an act of god to sway move that meter.

Fishclamps · Post by **Fishclamps** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:05 pm

Guess the fans won't be happy until they reanimate Wooden's corpse so he can lead them to 5 straight championships.

This is the best they're gonna do until they start giving a shit about their program.

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:12 pm

Fishclamps wrote:This is the best they're gonna do until they start giving a shit about their program.

But of course that's the point isn't?

Don't give a shit---->No fundamental investment in the product------>Poor results------>Don't give a shit------>

FightWildcatsFight · Post by **FightWildcatsFight** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:20 pm

Fishclamps wrote:Guess the fans won't be happy until they reanimate Wooden's corpse so he can lead them to 5 straight championships.

This is the best they're gonna do until they start giving a shit about their program.

Honestly, a majority of the students only care about football because it is a social event for them. It's an excuse to pregame, camp out for days (essentially a multi-day party), and to be rowdy.

The prevailing opinion among ASU students about sports is that they simply don't care. If they can't drink before or during it, then they could not care less. The student government and athletics department advertise heavily around campus for student support.

Imo it's a result of being a commuter school, bringing in transplants from all over the nation, and spitting them out with diplomas.

That being said, the only passionate sports fans I've ever met at ASU are baseball fans. Or fans of a different school's athletics, typically the school from their home state.

Fishclamps · Post by **Fishclamps** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:49 pm

I understand why most of the students there are bandwagoners or people who just don't give a fuck, but you would assume that at least some would be reenergized by the hire of a new coach. I guess that's a problem in a city where that sport is 10th in line to everything else.

azcat34 · Post by **azcat34** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:44 pm

ASUHATER! wrote:Hurley is a huge risk. End of story. Barely has 4 years of coaching experience total.

Your counterpoints to my post are so convincing, bravo.

Jim Harbaugh had 3 years of coaching experience before he got to Stanford FYI.

Fishclamps · Post by **Fishclamps** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:57 pm

The options were take a young coach that has potential upside or a coach that has already flamed out in some d1 gigs.

Seems like an easy choice to me.

Katzenfreund · Post by **Katzenfreund** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:11 pm

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:22 pm

Either way the losses to the scum have to stop. I think lute lost 6 times ever to Asu in 24 years and only once in his last dozen seasons.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:04 am

azcat34 wrote: Not sure how my posts equate to having a hard-on for Hurley, by pointing out that he recruited his own players when Puerco said he had success with someone else's players. That was just false and frankly I haven't seen a real convincing reason why this wasn't a great hire for ASU. The operative words there being "for ASU".

...

Lastly, Herb had 1 tournament win in 9 years as coach and it took getting an NBA MVP candidate to Tempe for him to even get that one. I think the combination of Hurley's impressive brief career and not exactly the highest bar to jump over to exceed Herb makes this a great calculated risk for ASU.

Upon closer examination, you may be right. Only one of their upperclassmen seems to have played for Buffalo for more than two years, so that should make them mostly Hurley's recruits.

Nevertheless, Hurley's résumé is not what would get you a gig as the head coach at a major conference school. He was 19-10 and 13-5 in his first year in the MAC. 23-10 and 12-6 in his second. Impressive? Sure, but not earth shattering. His predecessor, Reggie Witherspoon, had 20-10 seasons type four of the five years before Hurley showed up, so success at Buffalo isn't exactly unprecedented.

So, in a nutshell, Hurley has a couple of moderately successful years in a small school on his résumé. And the name. I have a suspicion that ASU doesn't even notice Bobby Hurley if it weren't for the name and the connection to Duke.

I don't argue with the underlined text above. I actually think it was a good risk for them to take. But make no mistake: it is a big risk. The fact that they were forced into it because they dallied too long with Capel doesn't excuse the fact that they had to take the risk. They should have moved on more quickly and landed a better candidate earlier, IMO. But the AD at ASU must run his department like Graham runs his football team. All blitz all the time. They'll get a couple of sacks, sure, but they'll give up three of four long touchdowns every game as well. Only time will tell which this hire will be.

thenewazcats · Post by **thenewazcats** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:02 pm

It's not a gamble if you have nothing to lose.

Scummy Dick Douglas · Post by **Scummy Dick Douglas** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:12 pm

To those of you who are critical of the hire: who would have been a better hire? Keep in mind this is ASU we are talking about. Poor facilities, poor fan support, and relatively small investment in basketball salaries. Given all those factors, who could ASU have had a reasonable chance at hiring that doesn't have some sort of glaring issue on his resume? I think the hire was about as good as they could hope for.

CatMG · Post by **CatMG** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:24 pm

Scummy Dick Douglas wrote:To those of you who are critical of the hire: who would have been a better hire? Keep in mind this is ASU we are talking about. Poor facilities, poor fan support, and relatively small investment in basketball salaries. Given all those factors, who could ASU have had a reasonable chance at hiring that doesn't have some sort of glaring issue on his resume? I think the hire was about as good as they could hope for.

I think it is a good hire for a school like asu (certainly better than the retread names being thrown around). What I don't agree with is that Hurley is some homerun (or slam dunk if you will) hire. To me a home run hire is hiring a coach who is already very successful (Lute certainly fits that bill and you could argue the same for Miller). If asu hired a coach from Buffalo who got the team to where they are and had the exact same record but didn't have a "name" most would be calling it a bad hire.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:32 pm

It was the best hire Asu could make...But it could still be a big failure. Just tells you what the Asu job is like

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:27 am

Scummy Dick Douglas wrote:To those of you who are critical of the hire: who would have been a better hire? Keep in mind this is ASU we are talking about. Poor facilities, poor fan support, and relatively small investment in basketball salaries. Given all those factors, who could ASU have had a reasonable chance at hiring that doesn't have some sort of glaring issue on his resume? I think the hire was about as good as they could hope for.

Sendek

ZONACAT · Post by **ZONACAT** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:55 am

Scummy Dick Douglas wrote:To those of you who are critical of the hire: who would have been a better hire? Keep in mind this is ASU we are talking about. Poor facilities, poor fan support, and relatively small investment in basketball salaries. Given all those factors, who could ASU have had a reasonable chance at hiring that doesn't have some sort of glaring issue on his resume? I think the hire was about as good as they could hope for.

That's fine, just don't tell me it is a home run and the landscape has changed.

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:05 am

Puerco wrote:
Scummy Dick Douglas wrote:To those of you who are critical of the hire: who would have been a better hire? Keep in mind this is ASU we are talking about. Poor facilities, poor fan support, and relatively small investment in basketball salaries. Given all those factors, who could ASU have had a reasonable chance at hiring that doesn't have some sort of glaring issue on his resume? I think the hire was about as good as they could hope for.
Sendek

Exactly.

catgrad97 · Post by **catgrad97** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:15 am

The Hurley hire was Ray Anderson trying to justify his job, just like the Sendek hire was Lisa Love's pet project, Rob Evans was Kevin White's, Bill Frieder and Steve Patterson were Gene Smith's and Bob Weinhauer was Dick Tamburo's.

Hats off to Herb for his career not imploding after the departure of his AD, unlike so many of his Sun Devil predecessors. He was the most successful ASU coach since Ned Wulk, and perhaps of all time.

Put that man in the studio as an analyst.

Scummy Dick Douglas · Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:50 am

ZONACAT wrote:
Scummy Dick Douglas wrote:To those of you who are critical of the hire: who would have been a better hire? Keep in mind this is ASU we are talking about. Poor facilities, poor fan support, and relatively small investment in basketball salaries. Given all those factors, who could ASU have had a reasonable chance at hiring that doesn't have some sort of glaring issue on his resume? I think the hire was about as good as they could hope for.
That's fine, just don't tell me it is a home run and the landscape has changed.

I have never said he is a home run hire. A home run hire for ASU wasn't/ isn't possible for all the reason I stated above.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:10 am

Scummy Dick Douglas wrote:
ZONACAT wrote:
Scummy Dick Douglas wrote:To those of you who are critical of the hire: who would have been a better hire? Keep in mind this is ASU we are talking about. Poor facilities, poor fan support, and relatively small investment in basketball salaries. Given all those factors, who could ASU have had a reasonable chance at hiring that doesn't have some sort of glaring issue on his resume? I think the hire was about as good as they could hope for.
That's fine, just don't tell me it is a home run and the landscape has changed.

I have never said he is a home run hire. A home run hire for ASU wasn't/ isn't possible for all the reason I stated above.

Maybe you haven't called it that, but that doesn't mean others haven't. A client of mine who went to ASSU told me the other day, "Now we have a better basketball coach than you do, so watch out!" My eyes rolled so hard they almost detached from the optic nerve.

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