Pathway to the 2016 Pac 12 title

UALoco · Post by **UALoco** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:16 am

Wow..this thread really went off the rails. I don't get the thinking that if your team does not make it to the Rose Bowl, Final Four, or College World Series, then the time supporting the team is wasted. If that is how you think, you are not a fan, your are not spoiled, you are a front runner. Just go ahead and cheer for the Warriors, Royals, Bama, etc. this year...and stop "wasting' your time supporting Arizona. Even our basketball team isn't going to make it to the Final Four every year...heck this year we are ranked 10 so we should lose before making it to the final four. What happened to cheering your team in appreciation for the work and sacrifices they make, regardless of a win or loss?

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:15 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Seriously, what does competitiveness have to do with this? Unless you are a gambler who thinks they are the greatest at handicapping.... I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. Some of us have really big problems with competitiveness. Even stuff as stupid as video games and fantasy football as a grown ass man.... But how are you making a competition out of watching someone else play basketball if it isn't gambling and you aren't a coach?
It's bizarre. Here's the thing, I bet every poster on this site (except the trolls) would list the #1 accomplishment we could have this year as a national championship. Every single one would want that more than a #1 seed, Pac title, etc.

The question is what happens if we don't get there. Newport seems to suggest we should view it as a disappointment and no more. Again, I think every poster was sad when we lost to Wisconsin, and every poster is gonna be sad if/when we lose in the NCAA tourney.

Some of us will just acknowledge there were still things that happened this year that Arizona fans should be happy about. Newport seems incapable of that next step. It isn't competitiveness, it's a messed up perspective.

I really want to know if you guys look up at our Elite 8 banner with pride inside McKale. Do you look up and see numbers like 1998, 2003, and 2005 and say, "Hey buddy remember 1998, what a great year that was?" or "2005 remember that win against Oklahoma State in the Sweet 16, man that team was good". Do you see 2014 and say "Man, Arizona is just so clutch in Sweet 16 games at the Honda Center"

Maybe you do and we are just different. But I don't, I look up at that banner and want to puke thinking about those year because all I remember is Losing in the F*cking Elite 8.

As god as my witness, I will donate enough money one day to the athletic department to get them to take down that stupid f*cking banner

I wish we had more fans with Stanley Johnson's mentality

"Why are we here? Why are we practicing?" "Why are we in training camp if we are not trying to win a championship? Are we practicing for second place? I will never practice for second place. Every team's goal is to win a championship, and if that is not in place, then we are not doing anything right."

On if his experience at Arizona lived up to expectations: “No. We lost in the Elite Eight. I watched that happen last year. I didn’t come to Arizona to lose in the Elite Eight again. Simple as that. I didn’t come here to play for second place, third place, I came here to play for the championship…

“We lost the game to get to the Final Four. So, no."

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:26 pm

Harvey Specter wrote:
Newportcat wrote:
gumby wrote:An elite program is one that makes Final Fours. We haven't been making those. But we're still an elite program, so we better get to the Final Four. Why? So we can be considered an elite program.

I'm getting dizzy.
Yes an Elite program is one that makes final fours. I believe our program CAN be an elite program as it was from 1988 through 2001 but since then we have simply been a good to great program. Nothing special or that will get remembered by the average college basketball fan. When we start making final fours again and hopefully winning a national championship again then we can be back in that same list as Duke, North Carolina, etc.

We are a Great BUT program right now. Arizona is Great BUT they keep losing in the Final Four. Sean Miler is a great coach BUT he still has not made a final four. Arizona is great BUT they have lost 5 elite 8 games since 2003.

I dont want to be a Great BUT program, I want to be Elite PERIOD Elite. We recruit at an elite level, we have facilities at an Elite level, I think our coaching is elite BUT until we make final fours we will not be viewed as an Elite program. And I personally hate that so anything that does not help us get back to being Elite is basically irrelevant to me.

Maybe I am too competitive or much more competitive then the people here. All I know is I have asked all my buddies the question whether they would be excited if we won the PAC 12 title and all of them said they could give two sh*ts and the only thing that matters is how we perform in the tourney.

I get I am debating Diehards which is kind of like me trying to convince crack heads in a crack house that crack isnt good for them. We all want the same thing in the end I just care a lot less about things which do not end the "Arizona is great BUT"
That is what it is Newport... You are just a wolf among sheep, a gladiator surrounded by monks... you competitive animal you!

Give me a break. So you have to be in the top 4 out of 347, or you are a failure? Okay, Eldrick. Who cares if I am number 1 in the Western US at my job... If I am not top 4 on the globe then I deserve to be fired!

You are clearly.an over-achieving MMA street fighter. Women want you... Men fear you... Children want to be like you. Us mere mortals are humbled to be in the presence of your greatness.

By your defeatist definition, the world is filled with losers... and I am quite sure you are probably one of them. But call it competitiveness if you wish.

I never said a season without a Final Four is a failure, I said it was irrelevant. Big difference. Not making the tournament is a Failure. At a program like Arizona making the tournament but not making the Final Four is an unsuccessful season that is irrelevant and should be quickly forgotten. It is not a failure, but it is not a successful season.

Failure is when you go out in college and don't bring home a girl and go to bed alone.
Irrelevant is when you go out in college and bring home a fat or ugly girl and screw her. Failure no because you had Sex, Successful No because the girl was fat or ugly
Success is when you go out in college and bring home a hot chick and screw her.

Harvey I bet you were real good at U of A trying to convince you buddies "Dude, she was not that fat, she was just big boned"

I am definitely a wolf among a bunch of sheep on this message board

cats101 · Post by **cats101** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:48 pm

No. Just shut up

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:07 pm

Hopes gone.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:20 pm

Regular season title talk is done now barring a miracle. Four damn one possession road losses. We better play out of our minds Saturday if we dont want a 6 or 7 seed

az91 · Post by **az91** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:28 pm

rgdeuce wrote:Regular season title talk is done now barring a miracle. Four damn one possession road losses. We better play out of our minds Saturday if we dont want a 6 or 7 seed

It was a good run, but we just didn't have quite enough talent this year to overcome the better teams on the road in the conference.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:36 pm

I said prior to the beginning of this season that this team will be similar to the 2012-2013 team. They finished 12-6 in conference and looks like that's probably where we'll end up when all is said and done.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:45 pm

az91 wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Regular season title talk is done now barring a miracle. Four damn one possession road losses. We better play out of our minds Saturday if we dont want a 6 or 7 seed
It was a good run, but we just didn't have quite enough talent this year to overcome the better teams on the road in the conference.

We have the talent. Its the brains/heart thats the problem. Still havent played a full 40, still dont WANT to defend.

az91 · Post by **az91** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:52 pm

rgdeuce wrote:
az91 wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Regular season title talk is done now barring a miracle. Four damn one possession road losses. We better play out of our minds Saturday if we dont want a 6 or 7 seed
It was a good run, but we just didn't have quite enough talent this year to overcome the better teams on the road in the conference.
We have the talent. Its the brains/heart thats the problem. Still havent played a full 40, still dont WANT to defend.

I still don't think we have enough at the point guard position.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:06 pm

rgdeuce wrote:
az91 wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Regular season title talk is done now barring a miracle. Four damn one possession road losses. We better play out of our minds Saturday if we dont want a 6 or 7 seed
It was a good run, but we just didn't have quite enough talent this year to overcome the better teams on the road in the conference.
We have the talent. Its the brains/heart thats the problem. Still havent played a full 40, still dont WANT to defend.

We don't have the athletes to defend effectively and it's been that way all season. While brains/heart is a factor, overall we don't have the natural talent to play a full 40 as you say.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:28 pm

Defense is 90 percent effort and brains. I know you know that. Every single effing guy on this team has the size OR athleticism to be adequate defenders. Anderson, York, Trier, Tollefsen, Kadeem, and on and on. Even PJC, who has somewhat of an excuse because of his size, still gets beat on things he can control.

Playing a full 40 is all mental. Its focus, its effort. How is this team able to come back from down 10 in every single one possession loss this whole season? Because they go oh shit, and suddenly the game has their attention. They then decide to defend and play hard. This isnt those teams choking, these teams are playing at home and the sample size is too large. This teams problem is between their ears. Turnovers, failure to grab easy rebounds, poor shot selection, all that aside from the defense.

This team beats itself plain and simple. They are their own worst enemy.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:33 pm

rgdeuce wrote:Defense is 90 percent effort and brains. I know you know that. Every single effing guy on this team has the size OR athleticism to be adequate defenders. Anderson, York, Trier, Tollefsen, Kadeem, and on and on. Even PJC, who has somewhat of an excuse because of his size, still gets beat on things he can control.

Playing a full 40 is all mental. Its focus, its effort. How is this team able to come back from down 10 in every single one possession loss this whole season? Because they go oh shit, and suddenly the game has their attention. They then decide to defend and play hard. This isnt those teams choking, these teams are playing at home and the sample size is too large. This teams problem is between their ears. Turnovers, failure to grab easy rebounds, poor shot selection, all that aside from the defense.

This team beats itself plain and simple. They are their own worst enemy.

Anderson can not defend college 4s effectively since the vast majority of college 4s are more athletic than him. He's an old school power forward. Tollefsen can't defend anybody so why are you trying to pawn him off as a defender. York has 4 years in the system and still at best is an average defender due to a lack of lateral speed. Trier has the ability for sure, but he's still rough around the edges, and you already pointed out Parker's issues.

Josh Scott beat us just as much as we beat ourselves today.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:33 pm

Whatever...JJ will be here this Fall and we can forget about all these losses.

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:46 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:Whatever...JJ will be here this Fall and we can forget about all these losses.

What a bunch of F*cking P*ssies. Grow up, this game means nothing. The real season has not started yet. Literally game means nothing outside of a different seed which this year means nothing given there are no dominant teams.

So we lost, in a week no one remembers this game. In a day no one remembers this game.

Next week is March, when games start to mean something. We lost on the road to a decent team. It happens.

In 1997 we finished 5th in the PAC 10...was that season irrelevant...I THINK NOT

The night is still young, we still have time to f*ck the Hot chick! Dont give up like Harvey and take down the whale

RiseAndFire · Post by **RiseAndFire** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:48 pm

This CU loss had all the hallmarks of the Bad CSM:

- Because of our slavish and unwavering committment to Pack Line M2M, 99% of the opponents offense runs through the high post pick and roll, resulting in our 7-footer spending most of his time on defense at the perimeter flopping around like a fish out of water instead of patrolling the paint. Do what we do! Pack Line! YEe haw!
- Prematurely burning all your timeouts and then having none at the end to draw up a game tying/winning play
- Refusal to adapt the defense to an opposing player that scores at will by doubling or applying extra attention (see CU Josh Scott 20 second half points, Santa Clara Jordan Brownlodge 42 points)
- Refusal to adapt our defense (apply pressure) to a CU team that turns the ball over
- Inability to sense who the hot player is on offense (Trier) and jerking that player in and out of the game based on some predetermined 4-minute "war" plan bull*****
- Inability to sense which player is off their game completely and continuing to ride said player based on the predetermined 4 minute "war" plan (see: PJC)
- Inability to sense which players should have the ball in their hands for a game/tying/winning shot

until some of these glaring weaknesses are corrected there will be no FF or Championship, no matter how many top 5 classes and 1st round picks come. This is the reality / expectations level that I have come to accept for this program with these recurring in-game themes. 5 star classes can't solve everything

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:49 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:]

Anderson can not defend college 4s effectively since the vast majority of college 4s are more athletic than him. He's an old school power forward. Tollefsen can't defend anybody so why are you trying to pawn him off as a defender. York has 4 years in the system and still at best is an average defender due to a lack of lateral speed. Trier has the ability for sure, but he's still rough around the edges, and you already pointed out Parker's issues.

Josh Scott beat us just as much as we beat ourselves today.

Anderson is as athletic as any 4 in the conference dont give me that BS. And he is stronger than just about any 4. The combination of both should make him a top tier defender. It shows in his rebounding and on the offensive end. He chooses to use neither on defense and doesnt think on top of that. Tollefsen with his size and wingspan at minimum has the ability to put his damn hands up on an outside shooter who is within two feet of him. Twice he didnt and a dude shorter than him knocked down a jumper in his face without using their dribble or even a jab step. Gabe has plenty of lateral quickness and at times shown he can defend some of the best offensive players in the conference.

And dont forget all the great defensive halves we have put together this year.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:30 pm

Anyone think we can win on Saturday? I was expecting a split this week, not 0-2. Feels like L.A. all over again.

KaibabKat · Post by **KaibabKat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:23 am

If anyone liked Josh Scott they should just love Jakob Poeltl.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:22 am

Rise and Fire is enfuego's sock.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:24 am

Newportcat wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:Whatever...JJ will be here this Fall and we can forget about all these losses.
What a bunch of F*cking P*ssies. Grow up, this game means nothing. The real season has not started yet. Literally game means nothing outside of a different seed which this year means nothing given there are no dominant teams.

So we lost, in a week no one remembers this game. In a day no one remembers this game.

Next week is March, when games start to mean something. We lost on the road to a decent team. It happens.

In 1997 we finished 5th in the PAC 10...was that season irrelevant...I THINK NOT

The night is still young, we still have time to f*ck the Hot chick! Dont give up like Harvey and take down the whale

Oh, Newport, Newport, Newport. We care about this game because it makes it difficult to share a conference championship and virtually impossible to win one outright. How many times do we have to explain this to you before it percolates through what you think is a brain and gets down to that little pea-sized bit that does the actual thinking for you?

waysouthcat · Post by **waysouthcat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:22 am

You're forgetting that to real men like Newport conference championships are irrelevant.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:55 am

He has this incredibly entertaining monologue going on the past couple of weeks, doesn't he? Like he's talking to himself in the mirror or something.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:00 am

Newport, serious question for you:

Which season was more painful, 2001 or 2005?

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:04 am

Puerco wrote:
Newportcat wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:Whatever...JJ will be here this Fall and we can forget about all these losses.
What a bunch of F*cking P*ssies. Grow up, this game means nothing. The real season has not started yet. Literally game means nothing outside of a different seed which this year means nothing given there are no dominant teams.

So we lost, in a week no one remembers this game. In a day no one remembers this game.

Next week is March, when games start to mean something. We lost on the road to a decent team. It happens.

In 1997 we finished 5th in the PAC 10...was that season irrelevant...I THINK NOT

The night is still young, we still have time to f*ck the Hot chick! Dont give up like Harvey and take down the whale
Oh, Newport, Newport, Newport. We care about this game because it makes it difficult to share a conference championship and virtually impossible to win one outright. How many times do we have to explain this to you before it percolates through what you think is a brain and gets down to that little pea-sized bit that does the actual thinking for you?

Dude, I swear she really was not that Fat....I mean ok she wasn't skinny but she well ok so she was a little big

I love how you say I have the Pea sized brain when you were the one who said they would maybe trade a PAC 12 Regular Season Championship for a Final Four...to this day the dumbest thing I have ever read on an Arizona Message Board ever.

You guys can keep explaining it to me and I will still keep reminding you that Conference Championships in College Basketball for a program like Arizona means basically nothing because come March, when the real season starts, no one cares if you won the regular season championship.

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:05 am

waysouthcat wrote:You're forgetting that to real men like Newport conference championships are irrelevant.

Exactly! Finally a voice of reason around here

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:07 am

RiseAndFire wrote:This CU loss had all the hallmarks of the Bad CSM:

- Because of our slavish and unwavering committment to Pack Line M2M, 99% of the opponents offense runs through the high post pick and roll, resulting in our 7-footer spending most of his time on defense at the perimeter flopping around like a fish out of water instead of patrolling the paint. Do what we do! Pack Line! YEe haw!
- Prematurely burning all your timeouts and then having none at the end to draw up a game tying/winning play
- Refusal to adapt the defense to an opposing player that scores at will by doubling or applying extra attention (see CU Josh Scott 20 second half points, Santa Clara Jordan Brownlodge 42 points)
- Refusal to adapt our defense (apply pressure) to a CU team that turns the ball over
- Inability to sense who the hot player is on offense (Trier) and jerking that player in and out of the game based on some predetermined 4-minute "war" plan bull*****
- Inability to sense which player is off their game completely and continuing to ride said player based on the predetermined 4 minute "war" plan (see: PJC)
- Inability to sense which players should have the ball in their hands for a game/tying/winning shot

until some of these glaring weaknesses are corrected there will be no FF or Championship, no matter how many top 5 classes and 1st round picks come. This is the reality / expectations level that I have come to accept for this program with these recurring in-game themes. 5 star classes can't solve everything

Step back from the Ledge, Miller has only lost in the tourney to a team ranked below him once since he joined our staff and that was two years ago to Wisconsin. Miller will get us to a Final Four and to state he wont at this time of year is just dumb

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:14 am

Puerco wrote:Newport, serious question for you:

Which season was more painful, 2001 or 2005?

Is that really a question, 2005. 2001 sucked because we got jobbed by the Refs but one of the best days I had in college was that Saturday at my frat house watching us crush Michigan State in the Final Four game. We had a massive party and lets just say I had a very Successful night

I watched the 2005 game at a bar in Newport I have still never been back to due to that game. I remember waking up in the middle of the night after that game, sweating thinking it was all a bad nightmare. I still to this day puke when I see Deron Williams highlights.

I know I have had a blessed life as I would say 2005 was one of the worst nights of my life in terms of being upset, angry, etc.

I look back at the 2001 team with fond memories from that Final Four game. 2005, well I hate Mustafa Shakur so much it still hurts

cats101 · Post by **cats101** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:05 am

Arizona only played 4 games in 2005.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:22 am

rgdeuce wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:]

Anderson can not defend college 4s effectively since the vast majority of college 4s are more athletic than him. He's an old school power forward. Tollefsen can't defend anybody so why are you trying to pawn him off as a defender. York has 4 years in the system and still at best is an average defender due to a lack of lateral speed. Trier has the ability for sure, but he's still rough around the edges, and you already pointed out Parker's issues.

Josh Scott beat us just as much as we beat ourselves today.
Anderson is as athletic as any 4 in the conference dont give me that BS. And he is stronger than just about any 4. The combination of both should make him a top tier defender. It shows in his rebounding and on the offensive end. He chooses to use neither on defense and doesnt think on top of that. Tollefsen with his size and wingspan at minimum has the ability to put his damn hands up on an outside shooter who is within two feet of him. Twice he didnt and a dude shorter than him knocked down a jumper in his face without using their dribble or even a jab step. Gabe has plenty of lateral quickness and at times shown he can defend some of the best offensive players in the conference.

And dont forget all the great defensive halves we have put together this year.

Look if you think Anderson is as athletic as Elgin Cook, Ivan Rabb, Bennie Boatright, Jonah Bolden, Marquesse Chris, and numerous others then your definition of athletic is far different from mine. Power doesn't help defend players who are quicker and can get around him easy, but sure. Who are the best defensive players in the conference Gabe has shut down exactly?

Yes all the great defensive halves we've had against tournament teams this year. I can count them all on one hand or finger...

RiseAndFire · Post by **RiseAndFire** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:14 am

ChooChooCat wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:]

Anderson can not defend college 4s effectively since the vast majority of college 4s are more athletic than him. He's an old school power forward. Tollefsen can't defend anybody so why are you trying to pawn him off as a defender. York has 4 years in the system and still at best is an average defender due to a lack of lateral speed. Trier has the ability for sure, but he's still rough around the edges, and you already pointed out Parker's issues.

Josh Scott beat us just as much as we beat ourselves today.
Anderson is as athletic as any 4 in the conference dont give me that BS. And he is stronger than just about any 4. The combination of both should make him a top tier defender. It shows in his rebounding and on the offensive end. He chooses to use neither on defense and doesnt think on top of that. Tollefsen with his size and wingspan at minimum has the ability to put his damn hands up on an outside shooter who is within two feet of him. Twice he didnt and a dude shorter than him knocked down a jumper in his face without using their dribble or even a jab step. Gabe has plenty of lateral quickness and at times shown he can defend some of the best offensive players in the conference.

And dont forget all the great defensive halves we have put together this year.
Look if you think Anderson is as athletic as Elgin Cook, Ivan Rabb, Bennie Boatright, Jonah Bolden, Marquesse Chris, and numerous others then your definition of athletic is far different from mine. Power doesn't help defend players who are quicker and can get around him easy, but sure. Who are the best defensive players in the conference Gabe has shut down exactly?

Yes all the great defensive halves we've had against tournament teams this year. I can count them all on one hand or finger...

According to the CSM super fan every player on this roster is an Aaron Gordon-level defender that just isn't trying hard enough. if anderson tolly and ristic just gave 100% effort on defense they could play like AG and then Pack Line would work and we'd have a top 5 defense again!!

the result of this philosophy is what you saw last night - JScott scoring 8 straight layups in a row and CSM making zero adjustment to help Ristic/Tarc, effectively conceding the game to CU out of pride

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:24 am

So since you want Miller fired, who do you want as coach instead?

dirtbags · Post by **dirtbags** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:43 am

well, most of us expected to drop a game this trip. just means we need to take care of business on saturday.

we can still win-out and clinch the title with some serious help from romar and one of the LA schools. it's still in the realm of possibility!

looking at remaining schedules though, 'tah probably has the best chances of winning out and finishing as co-champions with uo. but with fists clenched and cardinal & navy glasses firmly on, i'm expecting (hoping for) things to shake out thusly:
..... 1. UA ... 13-5
.........UO ... 13-5
..... 3. CAL .. 12-6
..... ...TAH...12-6
..... 5. USC .. 11-7
..... 6. CU ... 10-8

it's also looking like we're in pretty fair shape to finish within the top 4, which will grant us a bye in the pac tourney. that free pass to the quarters will definitely help.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:09 am

ChooChooCat wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
Look if you think Anderson is as athletic as Elgin Cook, Ivan Rabb, Bennie Boatright, Jonah Bolden, Marquesse Chris, and numerous others then your definition of athletic is far different from mine. Power doesn't help defend players who are quicker and can get around him easy, but sure. Who are the best defensive players in the conference Gabe has shut down exactly?

Yes all the great defensive halves we've had against tournament teams this year. I can count them all on one hand or finger...

First, there is a significant difference between "shutting down" and being adequate aka not absolutely getting murdered.

I don't know, maybe I dreamed Gabe doing a great job on Alford in McKale a few weeks ago. Chasing him around the court, avoiding screens, limiting his penetration and easy looks. I remember him doing well in Gary Payton for the time he had him in McKale. Same with Andrews in McKale. And there are several other instances in our "we are finally going to play some D in the seconf half" games, I just cant remember the specific opponents.

And Anderson isnt an elite athlete, and yes, there are a few of those in our conference who are quicker and more explosive. But he is not inferior to most in the conference or the country. He isnt this lumbering dude, im not sure ive seen such players pull off some of the shot blocks he does. Dont let his style of play and brute strength fool you into thinking otherwise. This has been an issue all season long. He cant keep even the most nonathletic dudes in front of him, dating back to nonconference play against inferior players. Its easy to see why he struggles so badly on defense and his lateral quickness and explosiveness are the least of the concerns. Again, he doesnt need to shut anyone down, just be adequate. Almost Anyone can be an adequate defender if they want to

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:51 am

rgdeuce wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
Look if you think Anderson is as athletic as Elgin Cook, Ivan Rabb, Bennie Boatright, Jonah Bolden, Marquesse Chris, and numerous others then your definition of athletic is far different from mine. Power doesn't help defend players who are quicker and can get around him easy, but sure. Who are the best defensive players in the conference Gabe has shut down exactly?

Yes all the great defensive halves we've had against tournament teams this year. I can count them all on one hand or finger...
First, there is a significant difference between "shutting down" and being adequate aka not absolutely getting murdered.

I don't know, maybe I dreamed Gabe doing a great job on Alford in McKale a few weeks ago. Chasing him around the court, avoiding screens, limiting his penetration and easy looks. I remember him doing well in Gary Payton for the time he had him in McKale. Same with Andrews in McKale. And there are several other instances in our "we are finally going to play some D in the seconf half" games, I just cant remember the specific opponents.

And Anderson isnt an elite athlete, and yes, there are a few of those in our conference who are quicker and more explosive. But he is not inferior to most in the conference or the country. He isnt this lumbering dude, im not sure ive seen such players pull off some of the shot blocks he does. Dont let his style of play and brute strength fool you into thinking otherwise. This has been an issue all season long. He cant keep even the most nonathletic dudes in front of him, dating back to nonconference play against inferior players. Its easy to see why he struggles so badly on defense and his lateral quickness and explosiveness are the least of the concerns. Again, he doesnt need to shut anyone down, just be adequate. Almost Anyone can be an adequate defender if they want to

I agree that anyone can be an adequate defender, but he suffers from the same lack of lateral ability that Brandon Ashley has. The difference is Ashley had a 7'2 wingspan to keep guys from getting by him at will. That's something Anderson does not have.

Gabe can defend "adequately" when he wants to, but more often than not guys get around him too. Also defending Bryce Alford isn't hard. If his shot is not on he takes himself out of games.

Either way this team suffers from a lack of athletic ability. All you have to do is look at the last two teams and it's more than apparent. There's a reason we're not in the top 20 in AdjD and it goes far beyond just not trying hard enough.

I would've really liked to see some zone when Zeus was on the bench and Scott was destroying us.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:09 pm

Remember the No Easy Buckets era?

Now it seems all the buckets are easy. Just no perimeter or interior defense without Zeus. Sad thing is, it's going to get worse next year without him.
At least weak defenders Tollefsen and York will be gone, although PJC and Allen will still be here. Hopefully Trier too, who may be an elite defender next year.

Very rare a true freshman can play Div I defense. Smith being out of ball 2 years will take some time before he is in basketball shape.

Opposing teams just set some high screens, UA guards can't fight through them, and it's an easy 2 points against Ristic and Comanche.

dirtbags · Post by **dirtbags** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:48 pm

yeah, the "nastiness is required" mantra, inspired by the late 80s detroit pistons. need to see a lot more of that from our guys.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:54 pm

dirtbags wrote:yeah, the "nastiness is required" mantra, inspired by the late 80s detroit pistons. need to see a lot more of that from our guys.

Arizona needs to recruit more Kevin Parroms then.

84Cat · Post by **84Cat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:01 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:
dirtbags wrote:yeah, the "nastiness is required" mantra, inspired by the late 80s detroit pistons. need to see a lot more of that from our guys.
Arizona needs to recruit more Kevin Parroms then.

I was just thinking about this this morning. Too many nice guys on our recent teams. I want to see guys play with a chip on their shoulder.

RiseAndFire · Post by **RiseAndFire** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:17 pm

ASUHATER! wrote:So since you want Miller fired, who do you want as coach instead?

who said fire? how about grow/evolve into a better in game coach, one that can be composed and doesn't go all Stoops and flinging his water bottle up in the air like a baby?

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:28 pm

RiseAndFire wrote:
ASUHATER! wrote:So since you want Miller fired, who do you want as coach instead?
who said fire? how about grow/evolve into a better in game coach, one that can be composed and doesn't go all Stoops and flinging his water bottle up in the air like a baby?

His record tells you all you need to know about being a game coach. He's really really really good.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:37 pm

So maybe...pathway to 2nd place? 3rd place?

I'm ready to concede to Oregon. They've been the best Pac team during league play, with AZ, USC, and Utah close behind, not necessarily in that order. I hope we can save some face vs. Utah on Saturday, but if we can't beat a very marginal Colorado team on the road, I'm not sure we can beat a better Utah team. Hope I'm wrong.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:43 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:
dirtbags wrote:yeah, the "nastiness is required" mantra, inspired by the late 80s detroit pistons. need to see a lot more of that from our guys.
Arizona needs to recruit more Kevin Parroms then.

Alkins seems to fit that mold

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:46 pm

Lute rarely called time out end of games either. Is he not a good coach?

Don't forget that if Miller had a time out to call, Rado would have the same amount of time to setup a defense too.

How far was Arizona down when CSM burned his last time out, 10 or 11 points? Cats came back to within 3 without any more called TOs, and had a very good chance to tie if York wasn't going hero ball again.

Still had the TV timeout at the 4 minutes mark, along with the CU TOs, and also the referee reviews. It's not like they were out there for 6 minutes without any stoppages.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:12 pm

Choo. You watch the games, you watch Miller verbalize things in pressers. The theme of this season for him is guys not doing what they are taught on defense and guys not giving the effort that is expected. This is straight from Millers mouth. You are far too focused on the physical aspects rather than all the others. Plenty of athletic freaks who cant defend. Whats the excuse when u watch us defend lights out in a lot of our 2nd halves this year after getting murdered in the 1st? Is Miller giving these guys athletecism pills at halftime? And dont cite the wear down, we were doing this when we were down several guys to injury, sickness, and personal issues.

Alford IS a tough cover, regardless of whether his shot is falling or not. Hes a near IMPOSSIBLE cover when hes on. U have to respect his shot, he can put the ball on the floor, he's shifty and fairly quick, hes always in motion and trying to get free, UCLA are always running screens to get him open, AND he can distribute. There are a lot of things u have to stop on him to keep him from setting others up, regardless of his final shooting numbers in a box score.

And you cite Brandon Ashley and his lack of lateral quickness and still struggling w a better wingspan than Anderson. Ashley also didn't have a motor. Ashley also was only intense for brief glimpses. Ashley still let bad calls from the refs get in his head and he would check out of games. Ashley still checked out of games mentally and playwise without that and would go MIA for extended periods. Ashley should have been a much defender than he was and has no one to blame but himself for that, not his lack of lateral quickness.

People keep bringing up these excuses, we dont have a rondae, a TJ, a Stanley, a nick, a gordon, etc. Well no, we dont. Those were also elite defensive teams. They had the tools and drive and desire to be the best defensive team in the country. They bought in. They took pride in it. This team is not as physically gifted, but guess what, they still have size. They still have depth, they still have the packline. They still have Zeus, one of the best and smartest interior defenders in the country. So maybe elite is expecting too much, but no reason they shouldnt be very good to excellent. There is no buy in. We are almost in March and guys still look lost out there. Guys are still out of position. Guys still cant guard a simple pick and roll. Guys still dont know how to switch, rotate, recover.

Kyle Fogg was one hell of a defender and he was far from explosive, his lateral quickness wasnt great either. Neither was Solomon Hill. Both guys were great defenders. TJ is physically overmatched by almost everyone in the NBA and guess what, hes still playing great D as a rookie. When I played there werent many guys in the city I couldn't guard on the perimeter. I was average athletically by HS basketball standards and my nickname was T rex. Im 6'3 and my wingpsan isnt even close to 6 feet. Ask Space or anyone else who played. I bet they all can pop off old teammates who werent gifted like that but could still defend the hell out of people. Its effort and focus, using your head, knowing and picking up tendencies in game and cheating and making them beat you with something else, or forcing them into help or a crowd. Its knowing where to be on the floor, its communicating, its position. Its closing out with your hands up, and staying on your toes and anticipating things before they happen. I can go on and on.

Bangkok Wildcat · Post by **Bangkok Wildcat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:28 pm

Rgdeuce, love and respect your input Dude..... Keep it coming and BTFD!

Thanks, BW

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:34 pm

rgdeuce wrote:Choo. You watch the games, you watch Miller verbalize things in pressers. The theme of this season for him is guys not doing what they are taught on defense and guys not giving the effort that is expected. This is straight from Millers mouth. You are far too focused on the physical aspects rather than all the others. Plenty of athletic freaks who cant defend. Whats the excuse when u watch us defend lights out in a lot of our 2nd halves this year after getting murdered in the 1st? Is Miller giving these guys athletecism pills at halftime? And dont cite the wear down, we were doing this when we were down several guys to injury, sickness, and personal issues.

You keep saying this, yet fail to cite exactly when we've played lights out defense this year and point out who our opponents were. We've beaten 1-2 (if Gonzaga makes it) NCAA tourney teams all year. We have yet to play lights out defense against any NCAA tourney team this year, which would be due to...YOU GUESSED IT...a lack of athleticism to defend very good players/athletes.

I do agree that knowing where to be, communicating, etc., is very important to playing good defense. It sure as hell is what is biting Ristic and Anderson in the ass amongst others, but once again you need athletes to shut down other good teams. We have not done that this year for the most part, especially outside of McKale.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:51 pm

Lol. Youre clinging to this one thing and ignoring everything else and whats funny, this argument isnt over elite teams we may face in the tournament. We are talking about the present and the ganes before. That was the original context. You said "we dont have the athletes to defend athletically and its been that way all season."

Out of all the teams we have played all year, how many are superior athletically as a whole? And be real, dont compare this years teams to years past and use that to downgrade who we are now. We are still Arizona and we are still bringing in guys who are superior athletically to most of their peers. Oregon for sure. Who else? You gonna say Colorado was? Come on

And please dont use Cal as an example. We lost that game because Jordan Matthews hit like 8 threes and in at least five of them there was no one within 10 feet from him. Had nothing to do with athletecism and they are a more athletic team. Remember the UCLA game? Remember how many uncontested 3s they had because guys were out of position and couldnt deal w the pick and roll? U remember how many layups and dunks they had, nobody in the lane and they could have walked to the hoop? All off pick and roll and guys not knowing where they were on the floor. You cant spot tournament teams or bubble teams 20 some easy points in road games, I dont care how good you are athletically.

And thanks for helping prove my point. This has been an all year thing, you dont give us credit for picking it up in the second half all year against all those other teams because they werent athletic. So when we sucked in the first half, we must have been really bad to let teams with no athleticism run us over or hang with us. Again, these are problems no matter which types of athletes we face.

Harvey Specter · Post by **Harvey Specter** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:00 pm

Newportcat wrote:
Harvey Specter wrote:
Newportcat wrote:
gumby wrote:An elite program is one that makes Final Fours. We haven't been making those. But we're still an elite program, so we better get to the Final Four. Why? So we can be considered an elite program.

I'm getting dizzy.
Yes an Elite program is one that makes final fours. I believe our program CAN be an elite program as it was from 1988 through 2001 but since then we have simply been a good to great program. Nothing special or that will get remembered by the average college basketball fan. When we start making final fours again and hopefully winning a national championship again then we can be back in that same list as Duke, North Carolina, etc.

We are a Great BUT program right now. Arizona is Great BUT they keep losing in the Final Four. Sean Miler is a great coach BUT he still has not made a final four. Arizona is great BUT they have lost 5 elite 8 games since 2003.

I dont want to be a Great BUT program, I want to be Elite PERIOD Elite. We recruit at an elite level, we have facilities at an Elite level, I think our coaching is elite BUT until we make final fours we will not be viewed as an Elite program. And I personally hate that so anything that does not help us get back to being Elite is basically irrelevant to me.

Maybe I am too competitive or much more competitive then the people here. All I know is I have asked all my buddies the question whether they would be excited if we won the PAC 12 title and all of them said they could give two sh*ts and the only thing that matters is how we perform in the tourney.

I get I am debating Diehards which is kind of like me trying to convince crack heads in a crack house that crack isnt good for them. We all want the same thing in the end I just care a lot less about things which do not end the "Arizona is great BUT"
That is what it is Newport... You are just a wolf among sheep, a gladiator surrounded by monks... you competitive animal you!

Give me a break. So you have to be in the top 4 out of 347, or you are a failure? Okay, Eldrick. Who cares if I am number 1 in the Western US at my job... If I am not top 4 on the globe then I deserve to be fired!

You are clearly.an over-achieving MMA street fighter. Women want you... Men fear you... Children want to be like you. Us mere mortals are humbled to be in the presence of your greatness.

By your defeatist definition, the world is filled with losers... and I am quite sure you are probably one of them. But call it competitiveness if you wish.
I never said a season without a Final Four is a failure, I said it was irrelevant. Big difference. Not making the tournament is a Failure. At a program like Arizona making the tournament but not making the Final Four is an unsuccessful season that is irrelevant and should be quickly forgotten. It is not a failure, but it is not a successful season.

Failure is when you go out in college and don't bring home a girl and go to bed alone.
Irrelevant is when you go out in college and bring home a fat or ugly girl and screw her. Failure no because you had Sex, Successful No because the girl was fat or ugly
Success is when you go out in college and bring home a hot chick and screw her.

Harvey I bet you were real good at U of A trying to convince you buddies "Dude, she was not that fat, she was just big boned"

I am definitely a wolf among a bunch of sheep on this message board

Actually that was typically the MO of dudes with bushy porn staches. Why do imagine that you probably have one?

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:25 pm

rgdeuce wrote:
Out of all the teams we have played all year, how many are superior athletically as a whole? And be real, dont compare this years teams to years past and use that to downgrade who we are now. We are still Arizona and we are still bringing in guys who are superior athletically to most of their peers. Oregon for sure. Who else? You gonna say Colorado was? Come on

USC, UCLA (outside of their post guys), Oregon as you mentioned, California (don't care it was Matthews that killed us and your boy York defending him). Look the defensive metrics are out there for who's a good defender on this team. Out of all the guys you named previously only one of them is and it sure ain't Anderson or York or Tolly. If these guys could defend effectively they would already be doing it. They're not great athletes and they don't defend well. It is what it is, so please stop trying to fluff our situation up.

Also I can't name any other superior athletic teams because our schedule has been so bad that we haven't played many. That also doesn't make this team a good defensive one RG.

So far one win against a NCAA tourney team. That same team got rocked by Stanford tonight. Oh boy!

Login • Register