Red-Blue game 2016

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:19 am

Olsondogg wrote:So based on a Red/blue game, people are stating they have final 4 potential? Or is it because of the rest of the field across the nation? Or is it because AT can be such a dominating factor?

I can't remember reading one thing about Nova's final 4 potential at this time last year...

Sidiki Johnson's legend will always be with us.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:22 am

I watch the red/blue game the same every year. Let's see how the uni's look. This year I barfed at "halftime".

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:27 am

Olsondogg wrote:I watch the red/blue game the same every year. Let's see how the uni's look. This year I barfed at "halftime".

If you ate a blue and red sno cone pregame, your barf might look like our uniforms.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:31 am

When they did a close up of the players, you actually had to think the opposite...meaning "Oh wait, he's on the blue team" cause the jersey showed read at the tops of the shoulder. And vice versa. Gross.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:05 pm

For anyone who needs an example of how you have to keep hype tempered from a Red/Blue game, look no further than Beau Muhlbach. If I recall correctly, he dropped 30 plus points in a Red/Blue game back in the early 2000s. Dude couldn't miss and was all over the place. My dad and I could not believe he was a walk on freshman(?) and swore he was going to be an impact player. He wasn't.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:57 pm

Well, in that case the game should be free! Machina was right!

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:39 pm

So much talent this year, I was impressed with them all. We have 9 guys that deserve playing time. I'll be shocked if Lauri misses a FT this season, what a pure stroke.

They didn't show it on the broadcast but Kobi wound up making that under the legs dunk during layup lines and the place went nuts

Got to talk to J Stew after the game and I ran into Bennett and AJ tailgating on Saturday. Both were awesome guys and had a blast coming back for the weekend

Recruitment Rows:

Simon ceremony after the game. Dad on the left, Mater Dei coach on the right. Miller was schmoozing it up with him:

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:39 am

What stood out for me was the efficiency by most of the players in that game, which is even more impressive when you look at the talent on both squads. Dusan 16 pts on 10 shots (7-10), Trier 16 on 11 (7-11), Alkins 15 on 9 (6-9), PJC 7 assists and 0 turnovers, Lauri 14 on 7, Ray 10 on 5, Kadeem's 14 on 12 isn't great, but there were a couple ill-advised shots he wouldnt take with a full squad on the floor and 6-12 isnt that bad for a guard. Chance was 3 for 5 from the floor. Really, Kobi was the only major contributor who had an inefficient game, but that will probably come with time. Pinder may or may not play a key role off the bench. Regardless of it being a scrimmage, these guys were still doing that in front of a sold-out 14k crowd, early in the season with limited practice. I know Maclean made a comment about the shooting percentages in the first half being impressive all things considered and I agreed with that 100 percent. And it wasn't like the defense was brutal either. The turnovers really weren't that bad either, 8 to 5 and I know two or three of those were attributed to the Smith who has to sit out the year.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:18 am

rgdeuce wrote:For anyone who needs an example of how you have to keep hype tempered from a Red/Blue game, look no further than Beau Muhlbach. If I recall correctly, he dropped 30 plus points in a Red/Blue game back in the early 2000s. Dude couldn't miss and was all over the place. My dad and I could not believe he was a walk on freshman(?) and swore he was going to be an impact player. He wasn't.

Beau could have been an All American. He was held back by coaches with personal issues against him. Beau was a monster...(says the parent of every kid on a team that shows out one game but doesn't play otherwise).

My problem with Red/Blue is...am I watching amazing offense, or bad team defense? Am I watching shutdown team defense, or an offense that will be lucky to throw one in the ocean?

Honestly, I'd rather see the starting 5 + the 6th/7th guy play the rest of the team as a scout team than mix the talent up. Make it Arizona vs an NAU/GCU level team by having our starting 7 go against the deep bench. Then we get to see at least if the our expected contributors can properly tear apart a 200 RPI team.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:35 am

EVCat wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:For anyone who needs an example of how you have to keep hype tempered from a Red/Blue game, look no further than Beau Muhlbach. If I recall correctly, he dropped 30 plus points in a Red/Blue game back in the early 2000s. Dude couldn't miss and was all over the place. My dad and I could not believe he was a walk on freshman(?) and swore he was going to be an impact player. He wasn't.
Beau could have been an All American. He was held back by coaches with personal issues against him. Beau was a monster...(says the parent of every kid on a team that shows out one game but doesn't play otherwise).

My problem with Red/Blue is...am I watching amazing offense, or bad team defense? Am I watching shutdown team defense, or an offense that will be lucky to throw one in the ocean?

Honestly, I'd rather see the starting 5 + the 6th/7th guy play the rest of the team as a scout team than mix the talent up. Make it Arizona vs an NAU/GCU level team by having our starting 7 go against the deep bench. Then we get to see at least if the our expected contributors can properly tear apart a 200 RPI team.

I'd say that you're watching a scrimmage. It's interesting to watch (especially when you're starving for ball and happy to see the season around the corner) but really doesn't tell you a ton. It could be a good predictor, a bad predictor or anywhere in between.

Defensively, it's a scrimmage/event. The preseason games should be a much better gauge of where we're at.

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:01 pm

rgdeuce wrote:I know Maclean made a comment about the shooting percentages in the first half being impressive all things considered and I agreed with that 100 percent.

Did you hear Maclean state that Rawle hadnt lifted a weight before coming to AZ? Can that be true?

KaibabKat · Post by **KaibabKat** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:07 pm

threenumberones · Post by **threenumberones** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:36 pm

Replay online yet? Can't find one.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:58 pm

Jefe wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:I know Maclean made a comment about the shooting percentages in the first half being impressive all things considered and I agreed with that 100 percent.
Did you hear Maclean state that Rawle hadnt lifted a weight before coming to AZ? Can that be true?

Yeah. Rawle has been a highly touted prospect for a while, and S & C programs seem to be harder to implement in HS basketball. AAU takes away from it, and basketball coaches...well, the emphasis just isn't always there like in football.

dcZONAfan · Post by **dcZONAfan** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:28 pm

threenumberones wrote:Replay online yet? Can't find one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nXFSLcgZ8M" target="_blank

threenumberones · Post by **threenumberones** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:42 pm

dcZONAfan wrote:
threenumberones wrote:Replay online yet? Can't find one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nXFSLcgZ8M" target="_blank

Thanks!

dcZONAfan · Post by **dcZONAfan** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:43 pm

Just watched the game and man does it get me excited. Kadeem is going to be so important for this team. He was so aggressive, every dribble had a purpose, and his pull-up jumper is so smooth.

And Rawle going to the hoop, good lord. Our offense has so much potential, and I see us getting back to being really good defensively. Not 14 or 15 good, but so much better than last year

Zero · Post by **Zero** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:56 pm

Jefe wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:I know Maclean made a comment about the shooting percentages in the first half being impressive all things considered and I agreed with that 100 percent.
Did you hear Maclean state that Rawle hadnt lifted a weight before coming to AZ? Can that be true?

Neither had Stanley.

HiCat · Post by **HiCat** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:04 pm

dcZONAfan wrote:Just watched the game and man does it get me excited. Kadeem is going to be so important for this team. He was so aggressive, every dribble had a purpose, and his pull-up jumper is so smooth.

And Rawle going to the hoop, good lord. Our offense has so much potential, and I see us getting back to being really good defensively. Not 14 or 15 good, but so much better than last year

Rawle going to the hoop hard (while taking hits) will be the difference in close games.
I'm betting he'll get the fans jacked up doing it too.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:09 pm

Rawle is going to be very important early on in the season.

threenumberones · Post by **threenumberones** » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:47 pm

dcZONAfan wrote:Just watched the game and man does it get me excited. Kadeem is going to be so important for this team. He was so aggressive, every dribble had a purpose, and his pull-up jumper is so smooth.

And Rawle going to the hoop, good lord. Our offense has so much potential, and I see us getting back to being really good defensively. Not 14 or 15 good, but so much better than last year

Yea, I've never been so excited after a red-blue game. Rawle is legit. Ray showed a remarkably little rust. Chance is going to be a great gap-fill at the 4-5. PJC looks like a completely different player. I could go on and on. Usually I'm trying to discredit the red-blue game as 'not enough practice, they should be out of synch'...this time I'm trying to discredit the success of it. Man it could be a great friggin year..I especially love the fact that we are an underdog in the Pac. It's right where we want to be.

84Cat · Post by **84Cat** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:46 pm

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:43 pm

Jefe wrote:Did you hear Maclean state that Rawle hadnt lifted a weight before coming to AZ? Can that be true?

That is not true, though it's close. He started lifting this past Spring for the first time. Rounds sent him workouts to get going on back when Rawle committed.

More here: http://usatodayhss.com/2016/the-rawle-a ... a-wildcats" target="_blank

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:10 pm

84Cat wrote:

What's up with the closed captioning? I do like referring to Lauri as "flower market." I may steal that.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:41 am

Just watched the full game. Good stuff, but my major worry is what happens if PJC reverts to last year's away game form? Kobe's got a looong way to go, and 'deem isn't going to take us where we want to go as a 1.

qwertyus · Post by **qwertyus** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:04 pm

Puerco wrote:Just watched the full game. Good stuff, but my major worry is what happens if PJC reverts to last year's away game form? Kobe's got a looong way to go, and 'deem isn't going to take us where we want to go as a 1.

PJC was good, but I'm going to reserve judgement until we see him play a few more games. I will say, PJC just needs to play within himself, and we will be a much better team than we were LY. Smith, Markaiinen, Trier, Ristic, Allen, Comanche, etc. There's enough size and scoring ability there, that PJC just needs to be smart and circulate the ball quickly. He doesn't need to do a whole lot, which I think is what happened last year. He tried to do too much. We had Gabe York, Kaleb, Anderson, Freshman Trier, etc. Not a whole lot of guys who get their own shot, or muscle their way into the paint (aside from Anderson, KT was oftentimes stonehands, and DR was pretty mercurial with that hookshot).

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:03 pm

I suspect PJC was poorly evaluated and isn't serviceable in PAC-12 or tourney play.

dmjcat · Post by **dmjcat** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:52 pm

I believe Miller when he says that PJC has improved but I don't believe that an undersized PG will go over well in the PAC12 this year. Some of the individual matchups (Lonzo Ball or Dillon Brooks) vs. PJC would give me nightmares if I were Miller.

I just don't think PJC's defensive liabilities can be covered up in the Pack line.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:02 pm

dmjcat wrote:I believe Miller when he says that PJC has improved but I don't believe that an undersized PG will go over well in the PAC12 this year. Some of the individual matchups (Lonzo Ball or Dillon Brooks) vs. PJC would give me nightmares if I were Miller.

I just don't think PJC's defensive liabilities can be covered up in the Pack line.

Ball and Brooks are top players nationally, and they'll present difficulties for any opponent. Hopefully we've got some weapons of our own to counter with. This is one of the more dynamic offensive teams we've had, so we may be able to match Oregon and UCLA, who are going to score a lot of points. If Trier can play, we should be right in the mix among the top three or four, with a chance to win the league. If Trier is out, it's harder to say. We'd be losing a key offensive player, and our freshman guards would have to step up.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:32 am

I've posted this elsewhere but I'll share it here as well:

2015-16 PJC was a darn good player at McKale but a bit of a dog on the road. In numbers, *on average per game* across all conference games either away or at home:

* Scored twice as many points at home.
* Shot 61% better at home.
* Dished 87% more assists at home.
* Lost 48% fewer turnovers at home.
* Resulting in a 258% better A:TO at home.

He played about 10% more minutes at home, on average - 22min vs 20min.

If we get the "home" PJC that averaged 8pts, 5asts, 1 TO per 22 min... well I sure do like that player. Giving him lead PG minutes of 30min/g, he'd post 10.5pts, 6.3asts, 1.4 TOs, 0.8stls per game, good for a nearly 5:1 assist to turnover ratio.

For reference, TJ posted 8pts, 5.3asts, and 2 TOs in his Jr year and 10pts, 6asts, and 2 TO in his Sr year, both in that same 30min/g.

Defensively, Parker only put up 0.6stl/g over his 22min, so if he kept that up he'd be half the steal machine that TJ was.

But offensively... the skill is there.

Here's hoping he can play like that on the road. And if not, maybe he just sits the away games and plays 30 mins every night at McKale.

---------------

I really enjoyed PJC's poise and confidence out there for the Red Blue, though I saw him get pushed around a bit by Kobi.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:00 am

dmjcat wrote:I believe Miller when he says that PJC has improved but I don't believe that an undersized PG will go over well in the PAC12 this year. Some of the individual matchups (Lonzo Ball or Dillon Brooks) vs. PJC would give me nightmares if I were Miller.

I just don't think PJC's defensive liabilities can be covered up in the Pack line.

Why would PJC be matched up against Dillon Brooks, a power forward.

Lonzo Ball can't shoot or drive to the basket. Fuck him.

Seriously though PJC will need help defending bigger point guards (especially combo guards with a score first mentality) - but that's why we have Kobi. Hopefully he grows into a competitive PG by league play.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:05 pm

YoDeFoe wrote:Lonzo Ball can't shoot or drive to the basket. Fuck him.

Ball impacts the game with his size, passing, and rebounding. He's a tall PG, so that can create match-up challenges for teams with smaller PGs, or just smaller guards more generally.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:23 pm

dmjcat wrote:I believe Miller when he says that PJC has improved but I don't believe that an undersized PG will go over well in the PAC12 this year. Some of the individual matchups (Lonzo Ball or Dillon Brooks) vs. PJC would give me nightmares if I were Miller.

I just don't think PJC's defensive liabilities can be covered up in the Pack line.

Dillon Brooks? In what world would PJC defend Dillon Brooks? One is a point guard and the other is a wing.

Ball is far from an offensive weapon as well, his strength is putting the ball into the hands of his teammates in the perfect spots. It's hard to defend that no matter what size you are. If he wants to shoot over PJC when we go up against them then that's a win for Arizona 10 times out of 10.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:24 pm

YoDeFoe wrote:
dmjcat wrote:I believe Miller when he says that PJC has improved but I don't believe that an undersized PG will go over well in the PAC12 this year. Some of the individual matchups (Lonzo Ball or Dillon Brooks) vs. PJC would give me nightmares if I were Miller.

I just don't think PJC's defensive liabilities can be covered up in the Pack line.
Why would PJC be matched up against Dillon Brooks, a power forward.

Lonzo Ball can't shoot or drive to the basket. Fuck him.

Seriously though PJC will need help defending bigger point guards (especially combo guards with a score first mentality) - but that's why we have Kobi. Hopefully he grows into a competitive PG by league play.

I should've scrolled down before I responded to his post. You nailed it.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:27 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:
dmjcat wrote:I believe Miller when he says that PJC has improved but I don't believe that an undersized PG will go over well in the PAC12 this year. Some of the individual matchups (Lonzo Ball or Dillon Brooks) vs. PJC would give me nightmares if I were Miller.

I just don't think PJC's defensive liabilities can be covered up in the Pack line.
Dillon Brooks? In what world would PJC defend Dillon Brooks? One is a point guard and the other is a wing.

Ball is far from an offensive weapon as well, his strength is putting the ball into the hands of his teammates in the perfect spots. It's hard to defend that no matter what size you are. If he wants to shoot over PJC when we go up against them then that's a win for Arizona 10 times out of 10.

Completely agree on Ball.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:27 pm

YoDeFoe wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
dmjcat wrote:I believe Miller when he says that PJC has improved but I don't believe that an undersized PG will go over well in the PAC12 this year. Some of the individual matchups (Lonzo Ball or Dillon Brooks) vs. PJC would give me nightmares if I were Miller.

I just don't think PJC's defensive liabilities can be covered up in the Pack line.
Dillon Brooks? In what world would PJC defend Dillon Brooks? One is a point guard and the other is a wing.

Ball is far from an offensive weapon as well, his strength is putting the ball into the hands of his teammates in the perfect spots. It's hard to defend that no matter what size you are. If he wants to shoot over PJC when we go up against them then that's a win for Arizona 10 times out of 10.
Completely agree on Ball.

I doubt Ball will be shooting very often for UCLA this year. They didn't recruit him to be a scorer.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:37 pm

We may disagree on this: but you don't have to defend a guard who doesn't shoot. And it's a heck of a lot harder to get assists when you're playing 4 v 5. Remember when opponents would sag on TJ in his first year?

Point being neither PJC nor Kobi nor Kadeem need to be worried about D'ing up Lonzo Ball.

dmjcat · Post by **dmjcat** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:06 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:
dmjcat wrote:I believe Miller when he says that PJC has improved but I don't believe that an undersized PG will go over well in the PAC12 this year. Some of the individual matchups (Lonzo Ball or Dillon Brooks) vs. PJC would give me nightmares if I were Miller.

I just don't think PJC's defensive liabilities can be covered up in the Pack line.
Dillon Brooks? In what world would PJC defend Dillon Brooks? One is a point guard and the other is a wing.

Ball is far from an offensive weapon as well, his strength is putting the ball into the hands of his teammates in the perfect spots. It's hard to defend that no matter what size you are. If he wants to shoot over PJC when we go up against them then that's a win for Arizona 10 times out of 10.

In what world???.............the one we are currently in!!! In case you haven't noticed Altman likes to run a 3 man weave on offense. He loves to get bad matchups and then attack the rim. UO did it quite effectively (attacking PJC on more than one occasion) in last years UA-UO game. I suggest you watch the tape of the game.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:09 pm

YoDeFoe wrote:Point being neither PJC nor Kobi nor Kadeem need to be worried about D'ing up Lonzo Ball.

I'm really not sure what to make of this. Either you haven't watched Ball, or you have and are greatly underestimating the impact he could have. He's legit. Will likely be a lotto pick in '17.

Our guards -- and our defense more generally -- could have our hands full with this guy. He's a freshman, but star freshman guards have been dominating lately (Simmons, T Jones, Russell, Irving, Wall). I don't think I'm the only one expecting Ball to have a notable impact on the Pac this year, particularly on offense.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:09 pm

dmjcat wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
dmjcat wrote:I believe Miller when he says that PJC has improved but I don't believe that an undersized PG will go over well in the PAC12 this year. Some of the individual matchups (Lonzo Ball or Dillon Brooks) vs. PJC would give me nightmares if I were Miller.

I just don't think PJC's defensive liabilities can be covered up in the Pack line.
Dillon Brooks? In what world would PJC defend Dillon Brooks? One is a point guard and the other is a wing.

Ball is far from an offensive weapon as well, his strength is putting the ball into the hands of his teammates in the perfect spots. It's hard to defend that no matter what size you are. If he wants to shoot over PJC when we go up against them then that's a win for Arizona 10 times out of 10.
In what world???.............the one we are currently in!!! In case you haven't noticed Altman likes to run a 3 man weave on offense. He loves to get bad matchups and then attack the rim. UO did it quite effectively (attacking PJC on more than one occasion) in last years UA-UO game. I suggest you watch the tape of the game.

Dillon Brooks would score on any of our PG's so PJC's height isn't much of a factor there. Miller just needs to make sure his D doesn't often switch a PG onto the other team's PF.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:24 am

Beachcat97 wrote:
YoDeFoe wrote:Point being neither PJC nor Kobi nor Kadeem need to be worried about D'ing up Lonzo Ball.
I'm really not sure what to make of this. Either you haven't watched Ball, or you have and are greatly underestimating the impact he could have. He's legit. Will likely be a lotto pick in '17.

Our guards -- and our defense more generally -- could have our hands full with this guy. He's a freshman, but star freshman guards have been dominating lately (Simmons, T Jones, Russell, Irving, Wall). I don't think I'm the only one expecting Ball to have a notable impact on the Pac this year, particularly on offense.

Yeah I've watched Lonzo Ball.

I watched him jack up 7 threes a game in Australia at a less than a 20% FG. Saw him do the same on the Adidas tour the last two years at 30%.

He cannot shoot and he can't help himself but jack up ill advised low efficiency shots. His dad told him that he's the second coming of Magic. He's not.

Yeah I've watched Ball - I hope we all have. Because the problems he has now (revolting shooting form, high volume/low efficiency, early shot clock heat checking from 30ft, flashy passes that sail out of bounds, listless on defense, floats his man into the ball when offball on offense...) it's the same shit he's been knocked on for two years now.

And the effect that he'll have on chemistry at UCLA... I don't think it'll be pretty. Three year starting PG and coach's son now has to move to the two guard spot. Last year's starting SG Holiday (a very good all around player) now goes to the bench. Hamilton and the prior two players will have their minutes reduced. But I'm sure they'll be fine taking their lumps for the golden boy of Chino Hills. Right?

Ball can't shoot, he's never played in a structured offence, and he has never played man to man defense. He crashes the boards and throws fancy passes. He's a beast in transition, he's a liability in a half court set.

He's like a Ricky Rubio / Josh Smith hybrid. Excuse me for not losing sleep over playing this kid.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:53 am

YoDeFoe wrote:Yeah I've watched Lonzo Ball.

I watched him jack up 7 threes a game in Australia at a less than a 20% FG. Saw him do the same on the Adidas tour the last two years at 30%.

He cannot shoot and he can't help himself but jack up ill advised low efficiency shots. His dad told him that he's the second coming of Magic. He's not.

Yeah I've watched Ball - I hope we all have. Because the problems he has now (revolting shooting form, high volume/low efficiency, early shot clock heat checking from 30ft, flashy passes that sail out of bounds, listless on defense, floats his man into the ball when offball on offense...) it's the same shit he's been knocked on for two years now.

And the effect that he'll have on chemistry at UCLA... I don't think it'll be pretty. Three year starting PG and coach's son now has to move to the two guard spot. Last year's starting SG Holiday (a very good all around player) now goes to the bench. Hamilton and the prior two players will have their minutes reduced. But I'm sure they'll be fine taking their lumps for the golden boy of Chino Hills. Right?

Ball can't shoot, he's never played in a structured offence, and he has never played man to man defense. He crashes the boards and throws fancy passes. He's a beast in transition, he's a liability in a half court set.

He's like a Ricky Rubio / Josh Smith hybrid. Excuse me for not losing sleep over playing this kid.

This is by far the least favorable assessment of Ball I've read.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:15 am

Puerco wrote:Just watched the full game. Good stuff, but my major worry is what happens if PJC reverts to last year's away game form? Kobe's got a looong way to go, and 'deem isn't going to take us where we want to go as a 1.

That is what has been in the back of my head too. Sometimes guys eventually push through that with experience/maturity, sometimes guys just never shake it, hopefully it is the latter. That is why I think it is important to make sure Kadeem is staying fresh at the 1, just in case, and Kobi gets heavy burn early at the 1. Otherwise, we are just going to have to eat whatever PJC does on the road.

dmjcat wrote:I believe Miller when he says that PJC has improved but I don't believe that an undersized PG will go over well in the PAC12 this year. Some of the individual matchups (Lonzo Ball or Dillon Brooks) vs. PJC would give me nightmares if I were Miller. I just don't think PJC's defensive liabilities can be covered up in the Pack line.

He's at an extreme disadvantage with the height, but that can be mitigated by several things. He is clearly stronger, the naked eye tells you he looks a shade quicker this year, he has another year of packline and general experience under his belt, it looks like he will have a better defense around him this year for help, etc. It was just one game and he wasn't defending an elite 1, but his defense stood out to me in the red/blue game as improved.

My personal philosophy is, if you are an undersized point, you are better suited to be a pest. The guy that is in the ball handlers pocket. If you can't lock them down or slow them down, make them uncomfortable . I know that goes against Miller's philosophy thought, but Miller showed last years he can now be flexible when needed. Lonzo Ball is going to be a headache for a lot of people, but fortunately the guy isnt a great outside shooter. Give him some space on the perimeter and let him shoot it, if I am playing UCLA I would be more than happy with him shooting 15 plus times. Throw Kadeem at nepotism.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:22 am

I linked to reviews of his saying the same as I just said, beginning in 2015. The kid is a high volume low efficiency shooter and he's wildly undisciplined on both offense and defense. He played for his Dad - who is a kook btw - who taught him "no shot is a bad shot."

More of the same criticism here from Draft Express.

He is not the second coming of Jason Kidd (who didn't shoot the three well but didn't take it often and shot about 2:1 FGA:FTA... while Ball shoots about 5:1). Ball can rebound and pass exceptionally well. He cannot shoot or attack the rim well. Good defenses will slow his pace, force him into a half court, and sag way the hell off of him begging him to shoot the ball. And shoot it he will - because "no shot is a bad shot."

I'll leave it at that.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:30 am

YoDeFoe wrote:I've posted this elsewhere but I'll share it here as well:

2015-16 PJC was a darn good player at McKale but a bit of a dog on the road. In numbers, *on average per game* across all conference games either away or at home:

* Scored twice as many points at home.
* Shot 61% better at home.
* Dished 87% more assists at home.
* Lost 48% fewer turnovers at home.
* Resulting in a 258% better A:TO at home.

He played about 10% more minutes at home, on average - 22min vs 20min.

If we get the "home" PJC that averaged 8pts, 5asts, 1 TO per 22 min... well I sure do like that player. Giving him lead PG minutes of 30min/g, he'd post 10.5pts, 6.3asts, 1.4 TOs, 0.8stls per game, good for a nearly 5:1 assist to turnover ratio.

For reference, TJ posted 8pts, 5.3asts, and 2 TOs in his Jr year and 10pts, 6asts, and 2 TO in his Sr year, both in that same 30min/g.

Defensively, Parker only put up 0.6stl/g over his 22min, so if he kept that up he'd be half the steal machine that TJ was.

But offensively... the skill is there.

Here's hoping he can play like that on the road. And if not, maybe he just sits the away games and plays 30 mins every night at McKale.

.

I posted TJ's and PJC's (freshman) per/40 min. stats before the season last year. They were eerily similar, albeit the numbers were skewed in PJCs favor because TJ was playing more important minutes. He has it in him, it's just the road woes and defense that holds him back. He had some games last year at McKale where he was insane, believe they were January games after that horrible start to the season. Ironically, his advanced defensive statistics last year were actually solid, but sometimes advanced stats dont tell the real story and that is the case here.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:25 am

What separated TJ was his defense. TJ was good on offense, but not so good that if PJC is efficient and distributes, he can't match that.

Defensively, PJC has had issues that TJ never did. TJ was always the guy who spearheaded our attack. PJC, at best, is a guy who fits into a strong defensive team. We need someone else to lead, more than likely our strength on the wing that was lacking last year.

I hope PJC is ready, but after last year, I hesitate.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:26 am

YoDeFoe wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
YoDeFoe wrote:Point being neither PJC nor Kobi nor Kadeem need to be worried about D'ing up Lonzo Ball.
I'm really not sure what to make of this. Either you haven't watched Ball, or you have and are greatly underestimating the impact he could have. He's legit. Will likely be a lotto pick in '17.

Our guards -- and our defense more generally -- could have our hands full with this guy. He's a freshman, but star freshman guards have been dominating lately (Simmons, T Jones, Russell, Irving, Wall). I don't think I'm the only one expecting Ball to have a notable impact on the Pac this year, particularly on offense.
Yeah I've watched Lonzo Ball.

I watched him jack up 7 threes a game in Australia at a less than a 20% FG. Saw him do the same on the Adidas tour the last two years at 30%.

He cannot shoot and he can't help himself but jack up ill advised low efficiency shots. His dad told him that he's the second coming of Magic. He's not.

Yeah I've watched Ball - I hope we all have. Because the problems he has now (revolting shooting form, high volume/low efficiency, early shot clock heat checking from 30ft, flashy passes that sail out of bounds, listless on defense, floats his man into the ball when offball on offense...) it's the same shit he's been knocked on for two years now.

And the effect that he'll have on chemistry at UCLA... I don't think it'll be pretty. Three year starting PG and coach's son now has to move to the two guard spot. Last year's starting SG Holiday (a very good all around player) now goes to the bench. Hamilton and the prior two players will have their minutes reduced. But I'm sure they'll be fine taking their lumps for the golden boy of Chino Hills. Right?

Ball can't shoot, he's never played in a structured offence, and he has never played man to man defense. He crashes the boards and throws fancy passes. He's a beast in transition, he's a liability in a half court set.

He's like a Ricky Rubio / Josh Smith hybrid. Excuse me for not losing sleep over playing this kid.

Sounds like Tony Wroten. Which would be funny except that the guy killed us.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:49 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote:What separated TJ was his defense. TJ was good on offense, but not so good that if PJC is efficient and distributes, he can't match that.

Defensively, PJC has had issues that TJ never did. TJ was always the guy who spearheaded our attack. PJC, at best, is a guy who fits into a strong defensive team. We need someone else to lead, more than likely our strength on the wing that was lacking last year.

I hope PJC is ready, but after last year, I hesitate.

Yep. Defense, heart, intangibles. He had control over the whole offense and made everyone around him better. It is the textbook, "stats aren't everything" example. Plus TJ was a warrior. When the game was on the line, he was the first to throw on war paint and jump in and others followed. If others didnt want to, he would go in by himself. So you dont have that, but at least the numbers show he can be "serviceable" and you just have to account for TJ's strengths from elsewhere, like you said, and deal with what comes when those strengths are from spots other than the point guard position. You and I both have expressed workarounds on the offensive end, and we seemingly have some passing strength from the wings which will help with that. I am fine with that, contingent on the fact that PJC/Kadeem have worked on feeding the low post players. That needs to be stressed and improved this year, I cant stomach 5-6 perimeter passes and then a contested shot late in the shot clock like last year.

I'd prefer working the inside out game early in the shot clock and early in the game if we aren't in transition. Feed Ristic and LM and Chance (in a favorable matchup). Give them the option, double Dusan, or he is going to have double digits before you can blink and/or get your bigs in foul trouble early. If they double, it opens up shots for everyone else, or a breakdown for our slashers to attack. One point I didnt make in this thread earlier, remember last year when I was going HAM on Dusan slowing down the game in the low post and his inability to just catch and go right up with it. He had two of those quick catch and go ups in the scrimmage and made both. Something he has clearly been working on and will make him even more difficult to contain.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:13 am

Having the league's best PG is significant, which is why UW and UCLA should do well this year. When we had TJ, we enjoyed this luxury.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:13 am

Puerco wrote:Sounds like Tony Wroten. Which would be funny except that the guy killed us.

I've got to continue to press: Lonzo Ball does not attack the basket - which is where Tony Wroten and Jason Kidd ate lunch (60% and 50% FTA:FGA for them against 20% for Lonzo). And while Tony Wroten couldn't shoot, he at least knew better than to try - he only attempted 1.6 per game.

Lonzo Ball shot 19% from three, taking shots well past NBA range, and took SEVEN of them a game. That'd be like Gabe York level of three point shooting, but with less than half of the makes.

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