Daryl Zero wrote:First game I went to and man, that was awful.
I'm assuming it was post-finals blues.
First game that Laurie didn't look like he could shoot.
Terrible turnovers. Some good and bad defense.
We have no PG; the freshmen play like freshmen (and not the lotto-bound type); Lauri is still adjusting to the college game; Ristic is one of the softest big men I've ever seen; our offense is basically pass it around a few times and then let Kobi or Rawle or Lauri go one on one; and we can't shoot FTs.
It's not the kind of team you look at and say: Pac 12 contender and watch out in March. It's a team you look at and say: we're gonna lose quite a few games once the competition improves (beginning this weekend), and it'll be impressive if Miller can overcome all of this and reach the tourney.
WTF are you talking about? We have a PG when PJC gets back in 2-4 weeks. There's still a lot of basketball between late January and March. The freshmen are freshmen, just like everywhere else in the country, Lauri included. Risitc has always been soft on D. He's also extremely skilled offensively if we can get him the ball. This hasn't changed. Our offense is what it is and that is the 28th most efficient offense in the land despite being down so many players. We shoot freethrows at 74%, which is pretty damned good.
Get over yourself, Alice. You don't need to drag the entire board through your manic-depressive fit after every single game.
'A parent is the one person who is supposed to make their kid think they can do anything. Says they're beautiful even when they're ugly. Thinks they're smart even when they go to Arizona State.' -- Jack Donaghy
Daryl Zero wrote:First game I went to and man, that was awful.
I'm assuming it was post-finals blues.
First game that Laurie didn't look like he could shoot.
Terrible turnovers. Some good and bad defense.
We have no PG; the freshmen play like freshmen (and not the lotto-bound type); Lauri is still adjusting to the college game; Ristic is one of the softest big men I've ever seen; our offense is basically pass it around a few times and then let Kobi or Rawle or Lauri go one on one; and we can't shoot FTs.
It's not the kind of team you look at and say: Pac 12 contender and watch out in March. It's a team you look at and say: we're gonna lose quite a few games once the competition improves (beginning this weekend), and it'll be impressive if Miller can overcome all of this and reach the tourney.
WTF are you talking about? We have a PG when PJC gets back in 2-4 weeks. There's still a lot of basketball between late January and March. The freshmen are freshmen, just like everywhere else in the country, Lauri included. Risitc has always been soft on D. He's also extremely skilled offensively if we can get him the ball. This hasn't changed. Our offense is what it is and that is the 28th most efficient offense in the land despite being down so many players. We shoot freethrows at 74%, which is pretty damned good.
Get over yourself, Alice. You don't need to drag the entire board through your manic-depressive fit after every single game.
KenPom still has preseason ratings built into it. Our offense is borderline top-50 at this point.
Daryl Zero wrote:First game I went to and man, that was awful.
I'm assuming it was post-finals blues.
First game that Laurie didn't look like he could shoot.
Terrible turnovers. Some good and bad defense.
We have no PG; the freshmen play like freshmen (and not the lotto-bound type); Lauri is still adjusting to the college game; Ristic is one of the softest big men I've ever seen; our offense is basically pass it around a few times and then let Kobi or Rawle or Lauri go one on one; and we can't shoot FTs.
It's not the kind of team you look at and say: Pac 12 contender and watch out in March. It's a team you look at and say: we're gonna lose quite a few games once the competition improves (beginning this weekend), and it'll be impressive if Miller can overcome all of this and reach the tourney.
To me it's definitely the kind of team that is fractured and not whole 11 games into the season. This isn't a team you can judge at the moment and say anything definitive about how they will look in March predominantly due to the fact they're missing two key contributors who will return before March.
How much or what do you want to bet BC97 about the over under 7.5 conference losses? You come in here with this so back it up son. I got the under. Step up or shut up.
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We are thin at point. But before Kadeem sat with 2 fouls last night (I would like to have seen us leave him out against a lesser team and go for the kill/move him onto their shoot-only wing on defense), we were up 16 en-route to a 30+ point win pace without really playing that great. Against a decent mid-major team with big game experience.
Yes, with our current situation, depth at point is an issue. And when Kadeem went to the bench, the wheels came off the bus. 10 possessions, no points, 6 turnovers, 9-0 run, their best player, Russell, got on track.
But your point guard doesn't get in foul trouble often. That is not an every game occurrence, or even an every month occurrence. If we avoid having to play Kobi at the point without it being him running some point when Kadeem shifts to the 2 for a bit, but really him being the only point...if we avoid that, we are fine.
But, yeah...with PJC down and Trier out, we are thin. We cannot afford foul trouble at the point. Luckily, there are ways to avoid that, and it is not something you see often...our point picking up a 2nd foul in the first 2/3rd of the 1st half and having to sit an extended time.
So we won by 10 instead of the 17 point spread, after having a mini-meltdown with our last PG out of the game at the same time as our best player had an off night (Markkanen was a step slow all night for whatever reason). Our lowest, worst performance of the year (by far) was brought about by PG foul trouble that won't be so fatal in another 2 to 4 weeks, and with that awful performance, we were still on pace to blow the game out a few different times, were never in danger, wire to wired the game, and won by double digits. When we woke up here and there we went on runs, took the game back out of reach, then slept.
It is a fallacy to apply the level of play/awareness of a sleepy pre-break game vs GCU in a late tip off that never was in danger, and whenever it was within 2 possessions we woke up, the crowd cheered, and we went on a run to make it a double digit lead again to other games on our schedule. 18-22 year old players get tired, get amped, get up for some games, and don't get as excited in some games and coast until they flirt with losing a lead, then step on the gas. That is what we saw all night...not once, no matter how melodramatic someone wants to be, was there a point where that game was in danger at all. And our players played like it.
We learned we need a point guard...either PJC or Kadeem...on the floor. And really nothing else. It was a shit game, which was a hallmark of the break game in the Lute Olson years. A 9pm tip against a blah opponent, the ability to just string together enough to get by whenever it was needed, led to a crappy game that we led from tip to buzzer and won by 10 and led by double digits for a good part of the night. To read anything more into it other than what we know...we are thin and susceptible to foul trouble at the point, and we had a bad game...is to try to read your own narrative into it.
We aren't going to struggle to make the tournament. We are only going to add personnel from here on out unless further injuries happen (and then, of course, if you don't have your team, you might not win), and we are about 20+ spots off the bubble right now, just as close to a 1 seed as a burst bubble. But we have been over all of that already. I would recommend an anti-depressant and a review of message board reactions to every win and loss and lackluster win the last 10 years to see why it is silly to overreact to this one.
I get what you are saying ODogg...but it is bigger than BC97. There is a whole segment of our fanbase that does this shit at every little bump. Sometimes, maybe, a couple of them are just uninformed or need talked down. And a few more probably didn't watch until 11 local.
There is no hope for someone who posts as much as BC97 and reads enough to know better.
I do like this team, the freshman are awesome (maybe not top 10 lottos just yet), but the 1 nagging thing that still gets me is how Miller has so thinly recruited the point guard position. PJC is solid, but only an average level Pac-12 point. Then there is no one. That's just ridiculous for a team that wants to be a top 10 team year in year out. Watching Allen run the point is the worst thing about this team, drives me crazy how bad he is at it. Can't really dribble or pass, he just kind of gets it done and that's it.
By far Miller's recruiting strong suit is power forwards. Decent enough on 2 guards. He just needs to think that in the modern era of 3 ball crazy shooting, you can have a full lineup of 7 footers but with no decent point, and inconsistent 2s, Miller's calling card, your ceiling in March is ALWAYS limited to a certain extent because the guards take nearly all the shots in the final 10 minutes of close NCAA tournament games.
I think being thin right now and managing to eek out victories is a good thing...Kobi playing point while Kedeem sits with fouls and PJC is out is really good for him and reinforces tot he team that it is a "system" not a person that they are incorporating...it kind of prepares them for anything in the future...it's not like we have a REAL back up point guard (like PJC was to TJ)...heck we only have one guy we really just use his initials on (which is the model for UA point guards now)...
I don't know these kind of hits later in the season rather than earlier would be a bit more devastating in my opinion.
PG needed, for sure, but 10 of the turnovers were by Chance, Ristic and Pinder. None of them are freshmen.
Chance is gonna break Miller's hand if he keeps setting screens like he's riding the people mover at the airport. Four turnovers in 14 minutes.
“In Chance’s case, that’s something he’s really got to work on,” Miller said. “He’s making the same mistakes constantly, (on) setting screens, with four turnovers in 14 minutes. Dusan, three turnovers. Keanu, three tunovers. When your post players have 10 turnovers in the game -- they don't really handle the ball a lot on the perimeter -- it’s hard to win.
Nice job by Kobi getting fouled on three straight possessions to push a four-point lead to 10 with six free throws. But he needs to scrap like Allen and Alkins for rebounds.
Kadeem seems to have regressed on offense. No wonder they call him Tony Allen. Nothing wrong with that, especially if Trier returns.
Looked like Kobi's hand was wrapped (kind of like DWill's was when he broke it), so he might have been reluctant to get too involved in rebounding if he was worried about injuring it further or the pain.
Of the 12 coaches, Rush picked the one whose fans have the deepest passion, the longest memories, the greatest lung capacity and … did I mention deep passion?
It happens. Team with a big lead starts trying to eat clock and the other team goes on a run. Team with lead starts getting tight and the trailing team smells blood.
84Cat wrote:How much of a difference does PJC make in a game like this? I would think he would have taken better control of the ball late.
Kadeem was not good today. Between him being off, having two freshmen and zero ballhandling depth, really anyone half competent would help. We have to play all our perimeter guys way more minutes than we want because without PJC and Trier we have no depth.
1. This team with this 7 man lineup turn to a bunch of snowflakes in the face of adversity. Maybe this is just a one game fluke, but boy I hope Zo and/or PJC are much more calming influences when something like that starts to brew.
2. Chance Comanche gives this team nothing except turnovers and fouls.
PennZona20 wrote:Kadeem was phenomenal on D though during our run. I think he had 7 steals today.
Kadeem always plays hard. His D has been a consistent steadying factor. ESPN has him with 5 steals. The 0-6 and 3 to's just hurts, and he is the guy who has to steady us during that run.
This game is a learning experience. It's good when that's a win too.
Great tribute to ASU by Miller having the team wearing the Maroon and Gold uniforms today.
"Arizona got uppercutted out of the 2018 tournament by No. 13 Buffalo, which delivered one of the most overwhelming, lopsided upsets by a double-digit seed in tournament history (89-68). "
enfuego wrote:Great tribute to ASU by Miller having the team wearing the Maroon and Gold uniforms today.
I don't think you know what maroon is. The uniforms are terrible, and that's your troll attempt? Weak.
Close enough. Who approves the uniforms? With gold in ASU's colors, you would think that Arizona would never have it or anything close to it on their uniforms.
"Arizona got uppercutted out of the 2018 tournament by No. 13 Buffalo, which delivered one of the most overwhelming, lopsided upsets by a double-digit seed in tournament history (89-68). "
84Cat wrote:How much of a difference does PJC make in a game like this? I would think he would have taken better control of the ball late.
For starters, we dont blow a 21 point lead w less than five minutes left. Im sure we would have been up more than 21 at that juncture too.
If people want a positive from this game, UCLA has been playing the best basketball in the country right now and only beat A&M by 7 IN ANAHEIM. We had to travel halfway across the country and play an early game in A&M's backyard and made them look like amateurs through 36 minutes with only 7 scholarship players available and our starting pg and an all american on the bench. We got the W, away from McKale against a quality opponent and we learned a lesson about closing games. End of story.
84Cat wrote:How much of a difference does PJC make in a game like this? I would think he would have taken better control of the ball late.
For starters, we dont blow a 21 point lead w less than five minutes left. Im sure we would have been up more than 21 at that juncture too.
If people want a positive from this game, UCLA has been playing the best basketball in the country right now and only beat A&M by 7 IN ANAHEIM. We had to travel halfway across the country and play an early game in A&M's backyard and made them look like amateurs through 36 minutes with only 7 scholarship players available and our starting pg and an all american on the bench. We got the W, away from McKale against a quality opponent and we learned a lesson about closing games. End of story.
This x100
Last 5-7 sucks mainly because people are gonna overlook the fact we were absolutely putting it on them prior
Yeah, the first 36 minutes was some of the smartest BB we have played all season. I was really impressed on all levels. If we were hitting our shots today, we would have been up 30.
84Cat wrote:How much of a difference does PJC make in a game like this? I would think he would have taken better control of the ball late.
For starters, we dont blow a 21 point lead w less than five minutes left. Im sure we would have been up more than 21 at that juncture too.
If people want a positive from this game, UCLA has been playing the best basketball in the country right now and only beat A&M by 7 IN ANAHEIM. We had to travel halfway across the country and play an early game in A&M's backyard and made them look like amateurs through 36 minutes with only 7 scholarship players available and our starting pg and an all american on the bench. We got the W, away from McKale against a quality opponent and we learned a lesson about closing games. End of story.
Nobody should take this game as a negative. The end was brutal, but we are a thin, young team who will hopefully go from 7 to 9 deep shortly. A&M is a good team and we whipped them, then just almost collapsed at the end.
I felt like Dusan responded to a challenging matchup today too. He gave us a lot in an underrated way. For some of the criticism he's faced, today was a good day.
Amazing really how well we played in the first 31 minutes. Kadeem was 0 for the game and Rawli and Kobi were 0-6 from 3.
We only got 27 minutes from the bench with 4 points and 4 rebounds yet we stretched the lead to 21. Guys had to be gassed.
Last edited by azcat49 on Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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You have to build a 22 point lead to lose it and only win by 4. Not sure how the 18 point cut in the lead comes out for some to be more important than the 22 point lead that preceded it.
Doesn't matter what order you score the points in...scoring more is the point. Not happy about the way we played late but was thrilled by how we played for 30 minutes, making plays and stops despite not hitting from outside.
All those times last year we fell down early then frantically came back to almost win the game...they were still losses. This is still a win. And despite us relaxing then tightening up when they made that matter, we still won.
And for each circumstance where we took a big lead and had a team push us, we have a Gonzaga where we nutted up and made it a game, and a Michigan State where we took haymakers and came back to win.
I am not worried about this team's mental toughness at all. I am worried about our depth, our lack of a true point for the time being, and streaky outside shooting.
But I am not worried about the mental makeup. I think we have an astonishing amount of calm and gravity for a team so dependent upon freshmen.
EVCat wrote:And for each circumstance where we took a big lead and had a team push us, we have a Gonzaga where we nutted up and made it a game, and a Michigan State where we took haymakers and came back to win.
I am not worried about this team's mental toughness at all. I am worried about our depth, our lack of a true point for the time being, and streaky outside shooting.
But I am not worried about the mental makeup. I think we have an astonishing amount of calm and gravity for a team so dependent upon freshmen.
Fatigue in the end. Tired legs in the final 4 mins makes a difference shooting, playing good defense. Once AT is back, things should settle down a little.
I'd trade a Pinder about now--and thought so too when we acquired him--for a serviceable juco pass first point guard right now. Sean under-recruited there, and losing Talbot Denny to an ACL didn't help. We could use that point guard, that would help this team get a lot more out of Markannen at the least and run the offense get us in our sets better and run our plays better. We have good bigs and forwards, we're just not getting the most out of them right now. Still a team learning to play together for one, but no point guard damaging the offense heavily.
enfuego wrote:Great tribute to ASU by Miller having the team wearing the Maroon and Gold uniforms today.
I don't think you know what maroon is. The uniforms are terrible, and that's your troll attempt? Weak.
Close enough. Who approves the uniforms? With gold in ASU's colors, you would think that Arizona would never have it or anything close to it on their uniforms.
You missed our thread on the unis this year....no debate with you on that many of them are just hideous! The red ones last night (didn't look Cardinal to me) were bad but not like ASSU as your troll comment in the game thread alluded too.....However if you saw the white with rusty colors unis vs GCU then your comment would have been spot on.
Am I crazy? I think pjc being back and 100% has more affect on our success than Triers return. Pjc returning improves every player on the court and allows Kadeem and Kobi to play in their natural positions. Not to mention the teams ability to feed lauri has dropped off a good deal since Parker went down.
I guess it's a pointless discussion, I would be ecstatic to get either back and even more so to get both
I actually like Kadeem at the point, especially on defense, and I like the three big lineup we've had out there with Lauri at the 3. So for me getting PJC back is about depth. Kadeem and Lauri look flat out spent at the end of games, and I think that has to do with guarding smaller guys for 35 minutes.
As for Trier, we need another shooter desperately. I don't see Rawle shooting from distance like this for the rest of the season and when he goes cold it will allow teams to gamble more on defense, clog passing lanes, deny entry passes, play gimmick defenses on Lauri like a box & 1, and in general make it harder to get high percentage shots. With Trier, we can space the floor and make teams stay honest. You can't sag off our guards to collapse on the lane if Trier is out there roaming and waiting to drop a dagger.
Of the 12 coaches, Rush picked the one whose fans have the deepest passion, the longest memories, the greatest lung capacity and … did I mention deep passion?
Chicat wrote:I actually like Kadeem at the point, especially on defense, and I like the three big lineup we've had out there with Lauri at the 3. So for me getting PJC back is about depth. Kadeem and Lauri look flat out spent at the end of games, and I think that has to do with guarding smaller guys for 35 minutes.
As for Trier, we need another shooter desperately. I don't see Rawle shooting from distance like this for the rest of the season and when he goes cold it will allow teams to gamble more on defense, clog passing lanes, deny entry passes, play gimmick defenses on Lauri like a box & 1, and in general make it harder to get high percentage shots. With Trier, we can space the floor and make teams stay honest. You can't sag off our guards to collapse on the lane if Trier is out there roaming and waiting to drop a dagger.
I agree with all of this. PJC and Allen carry a trade-off of advantages and disadvantages, but both are required at the 1, and Allen guarding the point has been a strength. Allen has looked a lot better against screens this season, and that makes all the difference from what we saw last year. PJC brings polish to the offense against both stretched and set defenses.
Chicat wrote:I actually like Kadeem at the point, especially on defense, and I like the three big lineup we've had out there with Lauri at the 3. So for me getting PJC back is about depth. Kadeem and Lauri look flat out spent at the end of games, and I think that has to do with guarding smaller guys for 35 minutes.
As for Trier, we need another shooter desperately. I don't see Rawle shooting from distance like this for the rest of the season and when he goes cold it will allow teams to gamble more on defense, clog passing lanes, deny entry passes, play gimmick defenses on Lauri like a box & 1, and in general make it harder to get high percentage shots. With Trier, we can space the floor and make teams stay honest. You can't sag off our guards to collapse on the lane if Trier is out there roaming and waiting to drop a dagger.
Right now, we bleed at the end of games because we have no perimeter depth. We have to play Pinder at the 3 just to steal a little rest for Kadeem, Kobi and Rawle. PJC and Trier return and we go from a paper thin perimeter rotation to a good one.
The effects of that should speak across the board. First, we can actually wear other teams down. Pinder can just back up the 4, so Lauri doesn't have to play 35 minutes. Maybe people start shooting threes better because their legs aren't gone after playing the whole game. Plus the base idea that Trier is pretty damn good and PJC is at least a serviceable option and our truest PG.
Frankly, we've lost to two legit top 15 teams despite being down our projected starters at the 1, 2 and 3 for some or all of the year. We've won every other game, including two good neutral site tests. Considering the way this year has gone, we are possibly overachieving. Get PJC and Trier back and we could be coming together for March with a lot of people having gotten some valuable experience.
The biggest thing with PJC and Trier getting 25+ minutes each is opponents who play zone do so to their own detriment. PJC slides into the lane with the dribble and draws defenders allowing Zo to roam and wait for the kick out and open three point shot. Then the more Man we see, the better opportunities Lauri, Dusan, and Chance will get on the interior.
Of the 12 coaches, Rush picked the one whose fans have the deepest passion, the longest memories, the greatest lung capacity and … did I mention deep passion?
