Sean Miller

[dcZONAfan]

To me there is a line to be crossed with yelling, and Miller approached that with Zeus last year. IMO he went too far and was caught on camera. I remember feeling gross watching that, and I didn't feel that same way last night.

Not that Odogg's feeling on something is of importance...

But really, he's not throwing chairs and the tongue lashing is to be expected based on the style of coach he is. He's not smashing clipboards or throwing chairs or grabbing players by the neck.

Could he scale it back? Surely, but as was stated before...this is a sport where emotions run high and can be used as an advantage in some arenas.

No, he crossed that line. Miller's very public, profanity laden, episode with Zeus was nothing short of stupid.

I find it absolutely incredible people defend Zeus in this situation. If I spoke to my dad like that when he was mad at me, jesus. And he's the calmest person in the world. If I spoke to my boss like that...I'd deserve whatever I got. I loved that CSM did that, and respect him even more for it.

[Bangkok Wildcat]

To me there is a line to be crossed with yelling, and Miller approached that with Zeus last year. IMO he went too far and was caught on camera. I remember feeling gross watching that, and I didn't feel that same way last night.

Not that Odogg's feeling on something is of importance...

But really, he's not throwing chairs and the tongue lashing is to be expected based on the style of coach he is. He's not smashing clipboards or throwing chairs or grabbing players by the neck.

Could he scale it back? Surely, but as was stated before...this is a sport where emotions run high and can be used as an advantage in some arenas.

No, he crossed that line. Miller's very public, profanity laden, episode with Zeus was nothing short of stupid.

I find it absolutely incredible people defend Zeus in this situation. If I spoke to my dad like that when he was mad at me, jesus. And he's the calmest person in the world. If I spoke to my boss like that...I'd deserve whatever I got. I loved that CSM did that, and respect him even more for it.

Agree completely DC.....it's called respect and discipline.....Zeus was 100% wrong and CSM was absolutely correct in his response to it! It's obvious to all those who respect authority.....to call out / challlenge your Alpha Male Coach in front of 14k fans and a televised game and NOT expect being chewed out would be delusional IMO.

Que the opening scene of Marine Bootcamp in 'Full Metal Jacket'

[scumdevils86]

always respect authority and your elders in every circumstance! if you are old then you can never be wrong!

[PieceOfMeat]

DZ makes some excellent points in this thread.

[MrMeow]

To me there is a line to be crossed with yelling, and Miller approached that with Zeus last year. IMO he went too far and was caught on camera. I remember feeling gross watching that, and I didn't feel that same way last night.

Not that Odogg's feeling on something is of importance...

But really, he's not throwing chairs and the tongue lashing is to be expected based on the style of coach he is. He's not smashing clipboards or throwing chairs or grabbing players by the neck.

Could he scale it back? Surely, but as was stated before...this is a sport where emotions run high and can be used as an advantage in some arenas.

No, he crossed that line. Miller's very public, profanity laden, episode with Zeus was nothing short of stupid.

I find it absolutely incredible people defend Zeus in this situation. If I spoke to my dad like that when he was mad at me, jesus. And he's the calmest person in the world. If I spoke to my boss like that...I'd deserve whatever I got. I loved that CSM did that, and respect him even more for it.

I have been on both the receiving and (potentially) giving end of those. Here is how it's handled correctly: Never lower yourself to the level of the kid. Shoot the kid a look, let him continue to sit (he knows he's now in deep shit), take it up with him later, privately ... and rationally. How Miller handled it was stupid. He got no better result with Zeus than had he handled it correctly.

[PieceOfMeat]

No, he crossed that line. Miller's very public, profanity laden, episode with Zeus was nothing short of stupid.

I find it absolutely incredible people defend Zeus in this situation. If I spoke to my dad like that when he was mad at me, [/quote]

What did Zeus say exactly?

Also, using the justification of "Y shouldn't talk to X like that when X is mad. Otherwise Y knows what they're gonna get!" sounds a lot like something I've heard before.....

[Spaceman Spiff]

Abuse is a 14-year-old HS freshman nearly taking a bad hop off the face at shortstop in practice and instinctively shying away from the next grounder. That was followed by the varsity assistant coach who was hitting them calling him a pussy and telling him to get back to his position, only to hit repeated grounders over and over again as hard as he could (ex-minor leaguer and 6'6", so they were hard). That kid got blasted four or five times (had bruises for weeks) and with each swing the coach would say something like, "do you need a break? Go home and put on your mommy's panty hose if youre gonna be a pussy." The kid stuck through it til the bucket of balls was empty, probably got 20 balls hit at him like that.

That 14 year old was me. My dad was at that practice. When the abuse was over I walked into the dugout, threw my glove against the wall, and then packed up my shit and left early. I held in the tears until I left the field and was walking toward my dad, then I broke down and cried harder than just about any other time in my life. Told my dad, fuck this shit I quit. He wouldnt let me and that made me cry even harder. He said something like, not only are you not going to quit, you are going to tell him you want another bucket of balls. So thats what I did. And that coach looked at me in disbelief, so he hit me another 20 or so grounders, all at normal speed. Dont know if that was out of shock or respect.

The very next season, that assistant coach got the head coach/manager job at Sahuaro High School. In their last game of the season, they needed a win to get into the regional playoffs to qualify for state. I was a sophomore and as fate would have it, I got the ball on the mound. The whole game all i could hear was him chirping from the dugout to his team, "you going to let this scrawny little kid shut you down? You going to let this pussy sophomore beat you?" I had never faced anything like that in life, I would have killed him if I had a gun, but it just fueled me. I ended up throwing a 2-hitter and ended their season. After the game when we lined up to shake their hands at home plate, he told me I pitched a heck of a game and I told him to suck my dick. He didnt even respond. It wasnt til I got home that night when I fully realized my dad gave me more than just a "don't quit" message. I cant think of many more experiences in my childhood that had more of a profound effect on me.

If anyone here went to Sahuaro High School or followed local sports when this guy played there (late 70s to early 80s), you know exactly who the guy is.

That's a powerful story. Things at that age shape people's outlook a ton.

I played HS ball at a program that went to the state tourney 3 of 4 years and won a state championship once. This was a public HS, so there wound up being a lot of pressure to win in an environment where the players coming in were luck of the draw.

My worst story would be far less than what you posted, but we got cussed out regularly. Being called a dumbass wasn't weird. I remember getting my head slammed off the floor taking a charge in practice and then feeling like the gym was lit up like heaven. I got sick and vomited in the garbage can, and no one said anything. Looking back today, I'm sure I had a concussion and I never took a minute off.

I'm always sort of conflicted about sports. I've torn my body up playing them. A large part of me thinks that sports aren't good for kids, physically or mentally. I have no real doubt that if I was 13 again, I'd continue to play them, though. I have no trouble seeing sports as an unhealthy obsession.

[dcZONAfan]

What did Zeus say exactly?

Also, using the justification of "Y shouldn't talk to X like that when X is mad. Otherwise Y knows what they're gonna get!" sounds a lot like something I've heard before.....

Gimme a break. It's pretty well documented what Zeus said.

What exactly are you getting at with the second part of your post. Are you equating it to domestic abuse or something? A coach yelling at a disrespectful player is akin to domestic violence? If that is where you're going, then jesus that's insanely idiotic.

[Spaceman Spiff]

To me there is a line to be crossed with yelling, and Miller approached that with Zeus last year. IMO he went too far and was caught on camera. I remember feeling gross watching that, and I didn't feel that same way last night.

Not that Odogg's feeling on something is of importance...

But really, he's not throwing chairs and the tongue lashing is to be expected based on the style of coach he is. He's not smashing clipboards or throwing chairs or grabbing players by the neck.

Could he scale it back? Surely, but as was stated before...this is a sport where emotions run high and can be used as an advantage in some arenas.

No, he crossed that line. Miller's very public, profanity laden, episode with Zeus was nothing short of stupid.

I find it absolutely incredible people defend Zeus in this situation. If I spoke to my dad like that when he was mad at me, jesus. And he's the calmest person in the world. If I spoke to my boss like that...I'd deserve whatever I got. I loved that CSM did that, and respect him even more for it.

I agree with this. Miller got upset and Zeus told him to relax.

Name me a life scenario where an authority figure tells you that your performance is unacceptable and your response is to tell him/her to chill out. I just don't see how that does not provoke that person. Some people might fire you. Some might yell and scream. Some might take it calmer, but I don't know how you would not expect immediate, negative consequences.

[dcZONAfan]

To me there is a line to be crossed with yelling, and Miller approached that with Zeus last year. IMO he went too far and was caught on camera. I remember feeling gross watching that, and I didn't feel that same way last night.

Not that Odogg's feeling on something is of importance...

But really, he's not throwing chairs and the tongue lashing is to be expected based on the style of coach he is. He's not smashing clipboards or throwing chairs or grabbing players by the neck.

Could he scale it back? Surely, but as was stated before...this is a sport where emotions run high and can be used as an advantage in some arenas.

No, he crossed that line. Miller's very public, profanity laden, episode with Zeus was nothing short of stupid.

I find it absolutely incredible people defend Zeus in this situation. If I spoke to my dad like that when he was mad at me, jesus. And he's the calmest person in the world. If I spoke to my boss like that...I'd deserve whatever I got. I loved that CSM did that, and respect him even more for it.

I agree with this. Miller got upset and Zeus told him to relax.

Name me a life scenario where an authority figure tells you that your performance is unacceptable and your response is to tell him/her to chill out. I just don't see how that does not provoke that person. Some people might fire you. Some might yell and scream. Some might take it calmer, but I don't know how you would not expect immediate, negative consequences.

Exactly, and this is CSM we are talking about. In case people haven't noticed, he's kind of intense.

[Chicat]

According to Bruins fans he's the human equivalent of caps lock.

[Harvey Specter]

According to Bruins fans he's the human equivalent of caps lock.

SO WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH CAPS LOCK? THOSE MOTHER FUCKERS...

I think Alford is the equivalent of 6-pt text.

[Harvey Specter]

What did Zeus say exactly?

Also, using the justification of "Y shouldn't talk to X like that when X is mad. Otherwise Y knows what they're gonna get!" sounds a lot like something I've heard before.....

Gimme a break. It's pretty well documented what Zeus said.

What exactly are you getting at with the second part of your post. Are you equating it to domestic abuse or something? A coach yelling at a disrespectful player is akin to domestic violence? If that is where you're going, then jesus that's insanely idiotic.

I do not think anyone objects to Miller coming unglued at Zeus... I sure did not. I do think calling him a MotheFucker was crossing the line. I love Miller even more than Lute, but nobody's perfect.

Bottom line, as pissed as he was, I would bet somewhere deep down inside Miller respected Zeus more for it. Bosses I have had who were ballbusters liked the guys best who had the balls to stand up to them on occasion... even if they did not like it at the time and fireworks ensued.

Tough leaders hate pussies who always allow themselves to get steamrolled...

[Spaceman Spiff]

According to Bruins fans he's the human equivalent of caps lock.

Alford is the human equivalent of an ellipses. He implies he'll actually have an impact, but it doesn't really happen. Whatever he's implying, it probably isn't disapproval of one of his players relative to a sexual assault.

[MrMeow]

What did Zeus say exactly?

Also, using the justification of "Y shouldn't talk to X like that when X is mad. Otherwise Y knows what they're gonna get!" sounds a lot like something I've heard before.....

Gimme a break. It's pretty well documented what Zeus said.

What exactly are you getting at with the second part of your post. Are you equating it to domestic abuse or something? A coach yelling at a disrespectful player is akin to domestic violence? If that is where you're going, then jesus that's insanely idiotic.

I do not think anyone objects to Miller coming unglued at Zeus... I sure did not. I do think calling him a MotheFucker was crossing the line. I love Miller even more than Lute, but nobody's perfect.

Bottom line, as pissed as he was, I would bet somewhere deep down inside Miller respected Zeus more for it. Bosses I have had who were ballbusters liked the guys best who had the balls to stand up to them on occasion... even if they did not like it at the time and fireworks ensued.

Tough leaders hate pussies who always allow themselves to get steamrolled...

What you say about tough leaders is true. I have experienced that from both sides too. Miller coming unglued was a big mistake. Losing one's temper almost always is. I suspect Miller knows that too. There is always a better way to handle matters. As you may recall, Larry Scott sent Miller a $25K bill to remind him of that a couple of years ago.

[dcZONAfan]

What did Zeus say exactly?

Also, using the justification of "Y shouldn't talk to X like that when X is mad. Otherwise Y knows what they're gonna get!" sounds a lot like something I've heard before.....

Gimme a break. It's pretty well documented what Zeus said.

What exactly are you getting at with the second part of your post. Are you equating it to domestic abuse or something? A coach yelling at a disrespectful player is akin to domestic violence? If that is where you're going, then jesus that's insanely idiotic.

I do not think anyone objects to Miller coming unglued at Zeus... I sure did not. I do think calling him a MotheFucker was crossing the line. I love Miller even more than Lute, but nobody's perfect.

Bottom line, as pissed as he was, I would bet somewhere deep down inside Miller respected Zeus more for it. Bosses I have had who were ballbusters liked the guys best who had the balls to stand up to them on occasion... even if they did not like it at the time and fireworks ensued.

Tough leaders hate pussies who always allow themselves to get steamrolled...

What you say about tough leaders is true. I have experienced that from both sides too. Miller coming unglued was a big mistake. Losing one's temper almost always is. I suspect Miller knows that too. There is always a better way to handle matters. As you may recall, Larry Scott sent Miller a $25K bill to remind him of that a couple of years ago.

What was the $25k bill for? I honestly don't remember, but if it was for the "He touched the ball" then it was, AGAIN, an entirely justified "loss of temper" as you say.

[MrMeow]

What did Zeus say exactly?

Also, using the justification of "Y shouldn't talk to X like that when X is mad. Otherwise Y knows what they're gonna get!" sounds a lot like something I've heard before.....

Gimme a break. It's pretty well documented what Zeus said.

What exactly are you getting at with the second part of your post. Are you equating it to domestic abuse or something? A coach yelling at a disrespectful player is akin to domestic violence? If that is where you're going, then jesus that's insanely idiotic.

I do not think anyone objects to Miller coming unglued at Zeus... I sure did not. I do think calling him a MotheFucker was crossing the line. I love Miller even more than Lute, but nobody's perfect.

Bottom line, as pissed as he was, I would bet somewhere deep down inside Miller respected Zeus more for it. Bosses I have had who were ballbusters liked the guys best who had the balls to stand up to them on occasion... even if they did not like it at the time and fireworks ensued.

Tough leaders hate pussies who always allow themselves to get steamrolled...

What you say about tough leaders is true. I have experienced that from both sides too. Miller coming unglued was a big mistake. Losing one's temper almost always is. I suspect Miller knows that too. There is always a better way to handle matters. As you may recall, Larry Scott sent Miller a $25K bill to remind him of that a couple of years ago.

What was the $25k bill for? I honestly don't remember, but if it was for the "He touched the ball" then it was, AGAIN, an entirely justified "loss of temper" as you say.

That was part of it, but it went beyond that. He didn't let the matter go with "he touched the ball". He continued to carry the matter way too far in a fit of rage. Got expensive. Fortunately for Miller, Zeus was just a kid who had no leverage.

[Harvey Specter]

What did Zeus say exactly?

Also, using the justification of "Y shouldn't talk to X like that when X is mad. Otherwise Y knows what they're gonna get!" sounds a lot like something I've heard before.....

Gimme a break. It's pretty well documented what Zeus said.

What exactly are you getting at with the second part of your post. Are you equating it to domestic abuse or something? A coach yelling at a disrespectful player is akin to domestic violence? If that is where you're going, then jesus that's insanely idiotic.

I do not think anyone objects to Miller coming unglued at Zeus... I sure did not. I do think calling him a MotheFucker was crossing the line. I love Miller even more than Lute, but nobody's perfect.

Bottom line, as pissed as he was, I would bet somewhere deep down inside Miller respected Zeus more for it. Bosses I have had who were ballbusters liked the guys best who had the balls to stand up to them on occasion... even if they did not like it at the time and fireworks ensued.

Tough leaders hate pussies who always allow themselves to get steamrolled...

What you say about tough leaders is true. I have experienced that from both sides too. Miller coming unglued was a big mistake. Losing one's temper almost always is. I suspect Miller knows that too. There is always a better way to handle matters. As you may recall, Larry Scott sent Miller a $25K bill to remind him of that a couple of years ago.

What was the $25k bill for? I honestly don't remember, but if it was for the "He touched the ball" then it was, AGAIN, an entirely justified "loss of temper" as you say.

And an example of why Miller's players love him... he protects and defends his team with the same fervor that is on display when he comes unglued at them.

There are times when you need someone to be aggressive in your defense, or assertive in "helping you" get things done. Everyone would love a boss who is easy on them and soft on everyone else. It does not work that way... people's DNA is their DNA.

I had a boss once who was a great guy to work for but useless when you needed him to shake the trees and push the envelope to make something happen. As a friend of mine said... "The great thing about X is 'he's easy'... And the awful thing about X is 'he's easy'".

[Harvey Specter]

You do not need to be a fireball to be effective... but most of the really good & effective ones are.

John R. Wooden's come around once in a generation. Maybe.

[PieceOfMeat]

What did Zeus say exactly?

Also, using the justification of "Y shouldn't talk to X like that when X is mad. Otherwise Y knows what they're gonna get!" sounds a lot like something I've heard before.....

Gimme a break. It's pretty well documented what Zeus said.

I do not remember (if I ever knew) exactly what he said. I didn't care to delve into message board searching to find out. I still don't know since you didn't answer the question. Though, am I to assume, it was the "Jeez, relax!" that Chi said above? I thought he was making some type of joke since he mentioned Zeus texting Miller that.

Is that what Zeus said?

[MrMeow]

You do not need to be a fireball to be effective... but most of the really good & effective ones are.

John R. Wooden's come around once in a generation. Maybe.

Twice (or more) in a generation? Lute was not a "fireball". Lute never went off on a player publicly (or privately that I know of). Like Wooden, he had better ways of controlling matters. I saw Lute feign a loss of temper with refs or opposing coaches a few times, but that is not who Lute was ... or is.

[catgrad97]

Oh, Lute definitely had his moments during games. Just never directed it at his own players.

But refs? Jim Calhoun? New Mexico game workers? You betcha.

[BibbysTowelDude]

I saw Lute light Chris Rodgers up for a good 20/25 secomds before. It was pre-game, Rodgers was jerking around (shocking information there) and Lute got pretty damn boisterous, and even wagged the finger in his face like he was Coach K virtue signaling a rambunctious Hokie. The guy might not have done it a ton, and he certainly didn't cuss (which I guess made Lute a god) but this Lute never hurt a fly/player bullshit is funny. Of course Chris Rodgers isn't even Chris Rodgers anymore from the last I heard, so maybe Lute killed his spirit that afternoon, of course CBS didn't catch him doing it so it never happened.

[Harvey Specter]

Lute slammed Frye into the lockers after practice one day and told him to toughen up.

Specifically "Don't be a ham sandwich"!

[Bangkok Wildcat]

You do not need to be a fireball to be effective... but most of the really good & effective ones are.

John R. Wooden's come around once in a generation. Maybe.

Twice (or more) in a generation? Lute was not a "fireball". Lute never went off on a player publicly (or privately that I know of). Like Wooden, he had better ways of controlling matters. I saw Lute feign a loss of temper with refs or opposing coaches a few times, but that is not who Lute was ... or is.

Why are you comparing Lute to Sean? Apples to oranges comparison IMO. Also, a much different time and type of player these days with social media blowing up these young men's egos, etc.

CSM has an intense, passionate coaching style and I appreciate it....as well as many top recruits evidenced by his outstanding recruiting classes every year. Sounds like you want some laid back, 'kumbaya' Coach who is very sensitive to hurting a 7 foot, 240 lb monster player's feelings even when they basically tell him to 'chill' during an intense game and coachable moment in front of 14k fans and a national tv audience....WTF?

...plenty of coaches like that in Tball, and grade school.....I for one love CSM's passion and laser focus during the games. A true leader IMHO.

Can't believe we even have to still discuss this even now.....smh.

[gumby]

Exactly, and this is CSM we are talking about. In case people haven't noticed, he's kind of intense.

This is where you lose me. Suggests that all of the choices reside with the kid. The adult? Can't help himself.

Sounds impulsive, rather than the right thing to do. There are other ways. Always other ways. It' s rarely either/or, and these relationships don't hinge on that one moment.

The reason any of us scream is because we've lost control, not because we're being thoughtfully strategic. "Oh, he'll hate me now, but some day that Disney ending will come."

I do think that sports can be an unhealthy obsession and, perhaps, not the best dispenser of life lessons. It is possible to excel without going through the boot camp of sports. The fact that war and sports are so closely associated is problematic. This isn't life or death.

Healthy is when it's fun. Unhealthy is when you endure because some authority figure will jump your shit or a parent will be disappointed.

[ChooChooCat]

I still don't understand why this is still a topic for discussion at this point. Each coach has their own style. Some are authoritarians and some are not. As long as he's not physically harming these players I don't see the issue, I just don't. I mean specifically in this incident he wasn't in any one player's face, he was intense, he was barking orders and expectations, he's making points. Not one player was looking at him like he was crazy or was giving off the impression they felt abused. Can we move on now?

[gumby]

I still don't understand why this is still a topic for discussion at this point. Each coach has their own style. Some are authoritarians and some are not. As long as he's not physically harming these players I don't see the issue, I just don't. I mean specifically in this incident he wasn't in any one player's face, he was intense, he was barking orders and expectations, he's making points. Not one player was looking at him like he was crazy or was giving off the impression they felt abused. Can we move on now?

Because it just happened. You can always move on. Why must we come with you? We're talking about something. It's a message board.

[ChooChooCat]

I still don't understand why this is still a topic for discussion at this point. Each coach has their own style. Some are authoritarians and some are not. As long as he's not physically harming these players I don't see the issue, I just don't. I mean specifically in this incident he wasn't in any one player's face, he was intense, he was barking orders and expectations, he's making points. Not one player was looking at him like he was crazy or was giving off the impression they felt abused. Can we move on now?

Because it just happened. You can always move on. Why must we come with you? We're talking about something. It's a message board.

Ok, Ok, sorry.

[EVCat]

CSM has an intense, passionate coaching style and I appreciate it....as well as many top recruits evidenced by his outstanding recruiting classes every year. Sounds like you want some laid back, 'kumbaya' Coach who is very sensitive to hurting a 7 foot, 240 lb monster player's feelings even when they basically tell him to 'chill' during an intense game and coachable moment in front of 14k fans and a national tv audience....WTF?

...plenty of coaches like that in Tball, and grade school.....I for one love CSM's passion and laser focus during the games. A true leader IMHO.

Can't believe we even have to still discuss this even now.....smh.

While I agree with your overall premise that there is no issue with CSM, and his relationship with players suggests he knows when to push and pull, I think it is incorrect to assume the only alternative is a "kumbaya" T-ball coach. There are plenty who deal with such transgressions as Zeus' off camera, and with great and glorious fury. That fury may not be in the form of screaming in their face. We had one just before CSM. The John Wooden philosophy is alive in many coaches. And I do believe CSM went too far with Zeus, and I believe CSM agrees. But there is no need to apologize, because Zeus deserved it, by and large. Move on, learn from it...I would think CSM learned from the distraction the reaction caused, whether we agree with it or not, that there are better ways. He is a young coach, still. And I do not mind his fire. But I think it is incorrect to claim the only other path is t-ball ribbon coach.

[rgdeuce]

I find it absolutely incredible people defend Zeus in this situation. If I spoke to my dad like that when he was mad at me, jesus. And he's the calmest person in the world. If I spoke to my boss like that...I'd deserve whatever I got. I loved that CSM did that, and respect him even more for it.

I dont hold it against either of them. In the heat of battle, two alphas butted heads. Miller is the king of the pack and sometimes the king has to put the others in their place and he is 100 percent justified in doing that IMO. Had Miller just done that just based on Zeus' mistakes, I would have a HUGE issue with it. Miller cant show the guys on the bench, the coaching staff, and I would say for the fans as well that he can be walked over. Zeus was probably over it by the end of the night and it is something that probably crossed his mind with all the other memories on senior night and he smiled.

To put the importance in perspective: One of my old HS teammates/buddy is probably a consensus top 3 player in the history of high school baseball here, some consider him the best. Our HS coach was unrealistically tough on all of us, but my buddy walked all over him from the very start of our senior year. I never took that coach seriously again and I'm sure I wasn't the only one. My buddy was an all star at pretty much every minor league level, but what type of attitude do you think he took with him? He butted heads with the manager of the organization he played for (well-known and by the book manager) and it was a wrap. As soon as the organization had an excuse to release him (injury) they did, and no other organization picked him up. He hadn't even hit his late 20s. My buddy never put on a major league uniform and he was much better than the two MLB middle infielders who we played against who have a combined 6 all star games, 4 gold gloves and nearly 400 HRs.

Said buddy and I had a falling out after high school, so things were never the same. Despite this, several years back, we ended up boarding together in the same room during an event for a mutual friend. I think we got 2 hours of sleep that night because he spilled his guts to me about his career. I just listened and let him get it out, it felt like I was the first person who got to hear him open up like that. I won't go into details, but I can guarantee you if Sean Miller was his coach in high school, rather than the coach we had, he would have been a guy who was considered one of the top 5 or 10 players of his time, health permitting.

[MrMeow]

Exactly, and this is CSM we are talking about. In case people haven't noticed, he's kind of intense.

This is where you lose me. Suggests that all of the choices reside with the kid. The adult? Can't help himself.

Sounds impulsive, rather than the right thing to do. There are other ways. Always other ways. It' s rarely either/or, and these relationships don't hinge on that one moment.

The reason any of us scream is because we've lost control, not because we're being thoughtfully strategic. "Oh, he'll hate me now, but some day that Disney ending will come."

I do think that sports can be an unhealthy obsession and, perhaps, not the best dispenser of life lessons. It is possible to excel without going through the boot camp of sports. The fact that war and sports are so closely associated is problematic. This isn't life or death.

Healthy is when it's fun. Unhealthy is when you endure because some authority figure will jump your shit or a parent will be disappointed.

This. Thank you for saying it better than I could have.

Miller seems to have gained a measure of self control since being clipped for $25K by Larry Scott and having embarrassed himself on national t.v. in the Zeus incident. I suspect he regrets both incidents.

[rgdeuce]

I have been on both the receiving and (potentially) giving end of those. Here is how it's handled correctly: Never lower yourself to the level of the kid. Shoot the kid a look, let him continue to sit (he knows he's now in deep shit), take it up with him later, privately ... and rationally. How Miller handled it was stupid. He got no better result with Zeus than had he handled it correctly.

My counter argument to that is, maybe the players, the coaches, and even the fans needed to see that? Arizona basketball is big time and big business. At the end of the day the program is HIS and carries a ton of responsibility. I've been in athletic situations and work situations where this has happened, the work situations obviously minus the "motherfucker." Some situations require a look and a conversation after, some require a 'Kevin, see me in my office after this" and some require a chewing out right then and there. How do we know this wasnt a reoccurring thing, conversations were had, and that was the last straw? Zeus was a senior. He was a leader and an example to every other player on that team. He set a poor example on the court and got yanked. As he went to take his seat he set another poor example. You cant have those Frosh-JRs sitting on the bench thinking any of that is tolerated because guess what they will do.

Let me ask you this? Did you ever see Zeus mouth off to him like that again? I havent seen anyone do that since. Some may not remember this, but from that point on Zeus played with fire through the rest of the season. Remember the Wichita State game, who was the only one who looked fearless and like they did not want their season to end that night?

This. Thank you for saying it better than I could have.

Miller seems to have gained a measure of self control since being clipped for $25K by Larry Scott and having embarrassed himself on national t.v. in the Zeus incident. I suspect he regrets both incidents.

He didn't embarrass himself. Bobby Hurley being ejected was embarrassing. I guarantee you he does not regret the Larry Scott incident or the Zeus incident. Neither got a real apology, nor were they deserved. If there are people who don't see it that way, that is fine. At the end of the day, there is a reason why the best coaches in sports are generally cut from the same cloth, and why there are few Pete Carrolls, Tony Dungys and Phil Jacksons.

[MrMeow]

I have been on both the receiving and (potentially) giving end of those. Here is how it's handled correctly: Never lower yourself to the level of the kid. Shoot the kid a look, let him continue to sit (he knows he's now in deep shit), take it up with him later, privately ... and rationally. How Miller handled it was stupid. He got no better result with Zeus than had he handled it correctly.

My counter argument to that is, maybe the players, the coaches, and even the fans needed to see that? Arizona basketball is big time and big business. At the end of the day the program is HIS and carries a ton of responsibility. I've been in athletic situations and work situations where this has happened, the work situations obviously minus the "motherfucker." Some situations require a look and a conversation after, some require a 'Kevin, see me in my office after this" and some require a chewing out right then and there. How do we know this wasnt a reoccurring thing, conversations were had, and that was the last straw? Zeus was a senior. He was a leader and an example to every other player on that team. He set a poor example on the court and got yanked. As he went to take his seat he set another poor example. You cant have those Frosh-JRs sitting on the bench thinking any of that is tolerated because guess what they will do.

Let me ask you this? Did you ever see Zeus mouth off to him like that again? I havent seen anyone do that since. Some may not remember this, but from that point on Zeus played with fire through the rest of the season. Remember the Wichita State game, who was the only one who looked fearless and like they did not want their season to end that night?

This. Thank you for saying it better than I could have.

Miller seems to have gained a measure of self control since being clipped for $25K by Larry Scott and having embarrassed himself on national t.v. in the Zeus incident. I suspect he regrets both incidents.

He didn't embarrass himself. Bobby Hurley being ejected was embarrassing. I guarantee you he does not regret the Larry Scott incident or the Zeus incident. Neither got a real apology, nor were they deserved. If there are people who don't see it that way, that is fine. At the end of the day, there is a reason why the best coaches in sports are generally cut from the same cloth, and why there are few Pete Carrolls, Tony Dungys and Phil Jacksons.

I agree that there are times for private conversations with the kid, and times for an immediate chewing out, however, having watched both incidents as they happened, I think Miller simply lost control of himself both times. Neither was calculated for the best effect, they were just impulsive. I also don't think you can guarantee anything as to Miller's regret or lack thereof. Perhaps Amy can, but not you. Yes, he has been defiant on both issues, however, his behavior has changed. Heads or tails?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Not every situation needs to be handled privately. Some of the best coaches ever (Phil Jackson springs to mind) have utilized public actions and commentary as tools to get results.

Maybe I'm a neanderthal, but I thought Zeus crossed a line that demanded immediate action. That doesn't mean I don't like Zeus. He was a great part of our program, but that was a mistake. You just can't let that pass, and I think Zeus would probably admit as much.

Miller's choices were to air him out or sit/suspend him, IMO. Doing it in private does nothing except hide what is going on. That isn't actually any better for the player, it just means fans don't have to see it. I see no real use in that.

[azcat49]

If I wanted Mr. Nice I would opt for Herb Sendek. It's CSM program and he is doing one hell of a job. I can't even imagine another coach out there being as well rounded. Big time programs have big time expectations. Keep it up coach and keep doing what you are doing

[rgdeuce]

I agree that there are times for private conversations with the kid, and times for an immediate chewing out, however, having watched both incidents as they happened, I think Miller simply lost control of himself both times. Neither was calculated for the best effect, they were just impulsive. I also don't think you can guarantee anything as to Miller's regret or lack thereof. Perhaps Amy can, but not you. Yes, he has been defiant on both issues, however, his behavior has changed. Heads or tails?

Maybe he did. If so, what is wrong with it? I mean, your kids go out and bust their asses for 40 minutes and the supposed-to-be-neutral commissioner and three hired goons wearing stripes ripped it away from them. That tournament championship meant a LOT to them - if that team had three team goals that was one of them, and all season that was one of the big things they worked hard for. To have knowledge beforehand that they were out for you, to watch one of the more lopsided officiating jobs you will ever see, and then a ridiculous technical to seal it up. It's just one game to the average person, to those kids, some who were in their last year, thats a huge memory and accomplishment that was ripped from their lives. So of course Miller is going to lose his shit, he loves his kids and he will fight for them and all of his future players. It needed to come out and it needed to be loud. If that was me, I would have sent the team with the assistant coaches to the locker room and I would have been hunting for Larry Scott. That dude would have probably been up against a wall as soon as I found him. Now THAT is losing control. I can and will guarantee Miller's lack of regret based on how he handled questions after both incidents, as well as my personal experiences with coaches cut from the same cloth as him. The only regret he may have is someone got footage and audio of the situation on their smart phone and some asshole media-rook leaked it. Even then, I wouldn't be so sure. He may be more conscious of things in the future, but that is not the same as regret leading to change.

People forget that Miller is a blue-collar, east coast guy. I have several friends from the Philadelphia area, they all make Miller look like the pope. Direct, loud, intense, brash, brutally honest, and typically have foul mouths. That's how they are to us, but back there, that's all they are used to.

[Chicat]

I still don't understand why this is still a topic for discussion at this point. Each coach has their own style. Some are authoritarians and some are not. As long as he's not physically harming these players I don't see the issue, I just don't. I mean specifically in this incident he wasn't in any one player's face, he was intense, he was barking orders and expectations, he's making points. Not one player was looking at him like he was crazy or was giving off the impression they felt abused. Can we move on now?

Because it just happened. You can always move on. Why must we come with you? We're talking about something. It's a message board.

It seems like our discussion of CSM's public displays of anger are not in proportion to how often they happen.

[MrMeow]

I agree that there are times for private conversations with the kid, and times for an immediate chewing out, however, having watched both incidents as they happened, I think Miller simply lost control of himself both times. Neither was calculated for the best effect, they were just impulsive. I also don't think you can guarantee anything as to Miller's regret or lack thereof. Perhaps Amy can, but not you. Yes, he has been defiant on both issues, however, his behavior has changed. Heads or tails?

Maybe he did. If so, what is wrong with it? I mean, your kids go out and bust their asses for 40 minutes and the supposed-to-be-neutral commissioner and three hired goons wearing stripes ripped it away from them. That tournament championship meant a LOT to them - if that team had three team goals that was one of them, and all season that was one of the big things they worked hard for. To have knowledge beforehand that they were out for you, to watch one of the more lopsided officiating jobs you will ever see, and then a ridiculous technical to seal it up. It's just one game to the average person, to those kids, some who were in their last year, thats a huge memory and accomplishment that was ripped from their lives. So of course Miller is going to lose his shit, he loves his kids and he will fight for them and all of his future players. It needed to come out and it needed to be loud. If that was me, I would have sent the team with the assistant coaches to the locker room and I would have been hunting for Larry Scott. That dude would have probably been up against a wall as soon as I found him. Now THAT is losing control. I can and will guarantee Miller's lack of regret based on how he handled questions after both incidents, as well as my personal experiences with coaches cut from the same cloth as him. The only regret he may have is someone got footage and audio of the situation on their smart phone and some asshole media-rook leaked it. Even then, I wouldn't be so sure. He may be more conscious of things in the future, but that is not the same as regret leading to change.

People forget that Miller is a blue-collar, east coast guy. I have several friends from the Philadelphia area, they all make Miller look like the pope. Direct, loud, intense, brash, brutally honest, and typically have foul mouths. That's how they are to us, but back there, that's all they are used to.

You do an admirable job of underscoring Gumby's excellent point in that diatribe.

[gumby]

If I wanted Mr. Nice I would opt for Herb Sendek. It's CSM program and he is doing one hell of a job. I can't even imagine another coach out there being as well rounded. Big time programs have big time expectations. Keep it up coach and keep doing what you are doing

He is our motherfucking coach, and I am happy about that. Again, I don't think he's a bad person.

"Mr. Nice" makes it sound like either/or. I do reject that.

[MrMeow]

I still don't understand why this is still a topic for discussion at this point. Each coach has their own style. Some are authoritarians and some are not. As long as he's not physically harming these players I don't see the issue, I just don't. I mean specifically in this incident he wasn't in any one player's face, he was intense, he was barking orders and expectations, he's making points. Not one player was looking at him like he was crazy or was giving off the impression they felt abused. Can we move on now?

Because it just happened. You can always move on. Why must we come with you? We're talking about something. It's a message board.

It seems like our discussion of CSM's public displays of anger are not in proportion to how often they happen.

Good point. Therefore, what could be the reason?

[gumby]

I still don't understand why this is still a topic for discussion at this point. Each coach has their own style. Some are authoritarians and some are not. As long as he's not physically harming these players I don't see the issue, I just don't. I mean specifically in this incident he wasn't in any one player's face, he was intense, he was barking orders and expectations, he's making points. Not one player was looking at him like he was crazy or was giving off the impression they felt abused. Can we move on now?

Because it just happened. You can always move on. Why must we come with you? We're talking about something. It's a message board.

It seems like our discussion of CSM's public displays of anger are not in proportion to how often they happen.

I saw an interesting discussion. Tossed in my thoughts.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I still don't understand why this is still a topic for discussion at this point. Each coach has their own style. Some are authoritarians and some are not. As long as he's not physically harming these players I don't see the issue, I just don't. I mean specifically in this incident he wasn't in any one player's face, he was intense, he was barking orders and expectations, he's making points. Not one player was looking at him like he was crazy or was giving off the impression they felt abused. Can we move on now?

Because it just happened. You can always move on. Why must we come with you? We're talking about something. It's a message board.

It seems like our discussion of CSM's public displays of anger are not in proportion to how often they happen.

I saw an interesting discussion. Tossed in my thoughts.

Coincidentally, that was Kaleb's justification too.

[Chicat]

It seems like our discussion of CSM's public displays of anger are not in proportion to how often they happen.

Good point. Therefore, what could be the reason?

Logical Me: We've been blessed with a very successful team, an engaged and active fanbase, alumni, and student body, and a coach who most consider one of the best young coaches in the game and the best coach to never have reached a Final Four. The team is filled with bright, articulate, fun young men who do nothing to embarrass the university or its fans, and who win at a .750 clip. The team competes for conference titles, regularly goes to the NCAA Tournament, and we have a coach who goes up against the blue bloods of college basketball in recruiting and more often than not wins those battles. So perhaps we're all looking for a chink in the armor since no one is perfect and no scenario is ever 100% positive.

Snarky Me: Because we can't have nice things.

[rgdeuce]

I remember plenty of rumblings right after the Miller/Zeus thing wherein people questioned whether recruits would want to come here again and whether their parents would want them coming her. Not soon after, we signed Kobi, Rawle and T-Ferg; Lauri (a guy who was already in for a culture shock coming from overseas) didn't decommit; and Miller landed the #1 prospect in the land. Reasons being: they all probably watched that video and laughed and said, "Damn coach was pissed", the parents and the players both have seen that before and know it is rather normal, and the players and parents want the very best and want to be/their kid to be pushed (and called a motherfucker if it is needed) and understand that pales in comparison to what they will hear from most NBA coaches, teammates, the fans on road games, and what they will be called online. Life is tough, most athletes would rather be over-prepared than under-prepared and risk coming up short on their dreams. Miller may not be right for every kid, but he is damn sure going to have you ready for the NBA if that is what you want. The culture itself is not right for every kid and parent either, but it certainly isn't going to change when there are millions of dollars on the line. Anything involving that kind of money, whether it is sports or Wall Street, is going to have a whole lot of ruthless and cutthroat behind it. Only the strong (usually) survive. There are exceptions, obviously. Sports are supposed to be fun, but the higher the level you get, you just have to accept that all this is coming with that fun if you keep playing. That will never change as long as athletes are being paid.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I remember plenty of rumblings right after the Miller/Zeus thing wherein people questioned whether recruits would want to come here again and whether their parents would want them coming her. Not soon after, we signed Kobi, Rawle and T-Ferg; Lauri (a guy who was already in for a culture shock coming from overseas) didn't decommit; and Miller landed the #1 prospect in the land. Reasons being: they all probably watched that video and laughed and said, "Damn coach was pissed", the parents and the players both have seen that before and know it is rather normal, and the players and parents want the very best and want to be/their kid to be pushed (and called a motherfucker if it is needed) and understand that pales in comparison to what they will hear from most NBA coaches, teammates, the fans on road games, and what they will be called online. Life is tough, most athletes would rather be over-prepared than under-prepared and risk coming up short on their dreams. Miller may not be right for every kid, but he is damn sure going to have you ready for the NBA if that is what you want. The culture itself is not right for every kid and parent either, but it certainly isn't going to change when there are millions of dollars on the line. Anything involving that kind of money, whether it is sports or Wall Street, is going to have a whole lot of ruthless and cutthroat behind it. Only the strong (usually) survive. There are exceptions, obviously. Sports are supposed to be fun, but the higher the level you get, you just have to accept that all this is coming with that fun if you keep playing. That will never change as long as athletes are being paid.

I would venture that most recruits would realize that what Miller did with Zeus pales to what happens behind closed doors. Just in personal experience, I've seen face to face screaming matches where coach/player have to be physically pried apart and multiple smashed blackboard/whiteboards.

I would go so far as to say 95% of college coaches have had verbal incidents with players that are worse than Miller/Zeus. If you've played fairly high level basketball, you've been called a mfer more than a few times.

[MrMeow]

It seems like our discussion of CSM's public displays of anger are not in proportion to how often they happen.

Good point. Therefore, what could be the reason?

Logical Me: We've been blessed with a very successful team, an engaged and active fanbase, alumni, and student body, and a coach who most consider one of the best young coaches in the game and the best coach to never have reached a Final Four. The team is filled with bright, articulate, fun young men who do nothing to embarrass the university or its fans, and who win at a .750 clip. The team competes for conference titles, regularly goes to the NCAA Tournament, and we have a coach who goes up against the blue bloods of college basketball in recruiting and more often than not wins those battles. So perhaps we're all looking for a chink in the armor since no one is perfect and no scenario is ever 100% positive.

Snarky Me: Because we can't have nice things.

Ha ha. How about because our successful and otherwise admirable coach's occasional boorish behavior is not acceptable to some, while others overlook obvious flaws in deference to winning, thus all the posts?

I suspect if Miller's win/loss record were poor no one would be defending his temper tantrums. Do you see anyone defending RichRod's sideline behavior? Do you see a lot criticism of it? Do you think you would if he were winning a lot?

I like Miller for all the reasons you cite, and I'm glad we have him. I'm just separating one (winning) from the other (boorish behavior), that's all.

Frankly, in the name of UA basketball success, I'm glad Larry Scott levied a significant fine on Miller. This stuff can sometimes take on a life of it's own if not checked. Bob Knight? There is a significant positive difference in Miller's sideline behavior since that fine (Ha, I just happened to think, in that one Miller was Kaleb and Scott was Miller). I also doubt we ever see another Zeus-like incident. I'm sure Miller didn't enjoy the national negative publicity, replete with videos, of that.

[Chicat]

My original point was that this "boorish behavior" is actually exceedingly rare. We've got the Pac-12 tournament when whatever happened largely did so off camera, the Kaleb incident, Sunday, and . . . . .?

If a guy loses his temper publicly 3 times in 7 years, is that really a pattern of behavior we should be concerned about? You bring up Bobby Knight. That guy was a maniac from time to time. He was also a complete dick in front of and to the media. And he choked his players during practice. That's not Sean. Even after the technical during the Pac-12 tourney during the press conference I was pretty shocked at how calmly he discussed what went on even though it was apparent he was seething.

Show me a pattern of "boorish behavior", not a scant few isolated incidents that many people see as not really being all that bad, and I'll grant you that we should discuss it more. How many technical has he received on an Arizona sideline? 2? 3? How many times has he been ejected from a game? Show me why I should be concerned.

[MrMeow]

My original point was that this "boorish behavior" is actually exceedingly rare. We've got the Pac-12 tournament when whatever happened largely did so off camera, the Kaleb incident, Sunday, and . . . . .?

If a guy loses his temper publicly 3 times in 7 years, is that really a pattern of behavior we should be concerned about? You bring up Bobby Knight. That guy was a maniac from time to time. He was also a complete dick in front of and to the media. And he choked his players during practice. That's not Sean. Even after the technical during the Pac-12 tourney during the press conference I was pretty shocked at how calmly he discussed what went on even though it was apparent he was seething.

Show me a pattern of "boorish behavior", not a scant few isolated incidents that many people see as not really being all that bad, and I'll grant you that we should discuss it more. How many technical has he received on an Arizona sideline? 2? 3? How many times has he been ejected from a game? Show me why I should be concerned.

How many times is a pattern?

[Spaceman Spiff]

My original point was that this "boorish behavior" is actually exceedingly rare. We've got the Pac-12 tournament when whatever happened largely did so off camera, the Kaleb incident, Sunday, and . . . . .?

If a guy loses his temper publicly 3 times in 7 years, is that really a pattern of behavior we should be concerned about? You bring up Bobby Knight. That guy was a maniac from time to time. He was also a complete dick in front of and to the media. And he choked his players during practice. That's not Sean. Even after the technical during the Pac-12 tourney during the press conference I was pretty shocked at how calmly he discussed what went on even though it was apparent he was seething.

Show me a pattern of "boorish behavior", not a scant few isolated incidents that many people see as not really being all that bad, and I'll grant you that we should discuss it more. How many technical has he received on an Arizona sideline? 2? 3? How many times has he been ejected from a game? Show me why I should be concerned.

How many times is a pattern?

About three fifty.