This One's On Miller

[Hank of sb]

Lavin coached at UCLA 7 years total, made the Elite 8 with Harrick's players and then never again, won the conference that first year and then never again and was fired after a 10-19 season. Miller has lived off his own players and not his predecessor for one and for two the second he has a 10-19 season or something similar then maybe you'd have a leg to stand on, but until then you're merely yelling at the wall.

I hate the Mark Richt comparison too btw. BCS vs NCAA Tournament does not work.

ChooChooCat


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Here's my last two cents for a night celebrating UCLA's loss (one down and one to go--Oregon):

For the last three years UCLA fans have accused Steve Alford of protecting his son by not recruiting a PG (purposely) so his son could play the position. That charge seemed very true to my eye. The UCLA fans screamed for Alford's head. Rightly so, IMO.

Many here and many at the Scout board have suggested Miller can't recruit a PG. Could it be, perhaps, that one reason SM has not recruited a PG (besides the other reasons mentioned) is HE wants to be the PG? Sean wants to be the offensive coordinator from the bench. Sean wants to be the one in charge......on the floor no less! In essence the PG, himself?

We all know Sean was a PG at Pitt.

I can't explain why Sean can recruit a top-5 class every year but never a point!

Something is not adding up.

[ChooChooCat]

Lavin coached at UCLA 7 years total, made the Elite 8 with Harrick's players and then never again, won the conference that first year and then never again and was fired after a 10-19 season. Miller has lived off his own players and not his predecessor for one and for two the second he has a 10-19 season or something similar then maybe you'd have a leg to stand on, but until then you're merely yelling at the wall.

I hate the Mark Richt comparison too btw. BCS vs NCAA Tournament does not work.

ChooChooCat


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Here's my last two cents for a night celebrating UCLA's loss (one down and one to go--Oregon):

For the last three years UCLA fans have accused Steve Alford of protecting his son by not recruiting a PG (purposely) so his son could play the position. That charge seemed very true to my eye. The UCLA fans screamed for Alford's head. Rightly so, IMO.

Many here and many at the Scout board have suggested Miller can't recruit a PG. Could it be, perhaps, that one reason SM has not recruited a PG (besides the other reasons mentioned) is HE wants to be the PG? Sean wants to be the offensive coordinator from the bench. Sean wants to be the one in charge......on the floor no less! In essence the PG, himself?

We all know Sean was a PG at Pitt.

I can't explain why Sean can recruit a top-5 class every year but never a point!

Something is not adding up.

Good lord.

Point Guards Miller has attempted to land at Arizona or did land:

2009: Momo Jones (didn't have much else to choose from at the time)
2010: Ray McCallum (went to Detroit to play for his dad instead), got Jordin Mayes as a combo guard.
2011: Josiah Turner (loved weed more than he did basketball)
2012: Landed T.J. McConnell as the future PG and Mark Lyons as the bandaid PG.
2013: Didn't recruit any, because he had TJ
2014: Parker Jackson-Cartwright, likely would've taken Jordan McLaughlin, but he didn't want to leave LA
2015: I guess you could say Justin Simon as a PG of the future, but that didn't work out
2016: Wanted Jaylen Hands, but couldn't land him because Compton Magic, got Barcello, pushing for Duvall.

Miller has misevaluated both talent (PJC) and personality (Josiah). He's missed on other guys for all kinds of reasons and that's it. I can blame the guy for a lot, wanting to be the PG of his own team is not one of them and is one of the more far fetched out there conspiracy theorist tin foil hat wearing crap I've ever heard to say the least.

[CalStateTempe]

What is the backstory on what went south with the Compton magic and is that relationship irreparable?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Let me just toss this out there. We've made the Sweet 16 five times in seven years under Sean Miller.

Unless my analysis is bad, Lute Olson never made the Sweet 16 five times in seven years while at Arizona.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona ... basketball" target="_blank

Steve Lavin did the EXACT same thing.

Arizona's been to the S-16 a zillion times now. We've won the Pac10/12 more than anybody. Same for the Pac Tourney.

It's time to move on. (It took forever to get rid of Steve Lavin (as well, Georgia's football coach Mark Richt given as another analogy.)

I'm not sure you are making the point you are trying to make.

That loss yesterday looked ENTIRELY the fault of our coach. Indeed, if the coach had been sick, I wonder if Arizona wouldn't have won readily.

The coach, to my eye, was the 'player' (easily) the most in the way of victory.

That's the other "analysis."

Feel free to move on. There are plenty of other college teams to root for.

Mike Kryzyzewski has made 4 of the last 7 Sweet 16's. Bill Self has matched Miller with 5 of 7. Roy Williams, 5 of the last 7. Tom Izzo, 4 of 7. Pitino, 4 of 7. Calipari, 5 of the last 7.

Those are all hall of fame coaches, and I would argue the best 6 non-Miller coaches recently. None have made Sweet 16's more consistently and Miller is outperforming Coach K, Izzo and Pitino.

Quit with the dramatics. We're all unhappy with not making a Final Four, but that is the only possible way you can detract from Miller, and 5 of 7 years in the Sweet 16 after taking over a program in disrepair is tremendous.

[dcZONAfan]

Could it be, perhaps, that one reason SM has not recruited a PG (besides the other reasons mentioned) is HE wants to be the PG? Sean wants to be the offensive coordinator from the bench. Sean wants to be the one in charge......on the floor no less! In essence the PG, himself?

We all know Sean was a PG at Pitt.

I can't explain why Sean can recruit a top-5 class every year but never a point!

Something is not adding up.

This is easily one of the dumbest comments I've ever read on the internet. Impressive, Hank.

[BigSkyCatinMT]

Don't get me wrong, no chance in hell I'd ever say ''Fire Miller''. Would we ever get better? I hope he's here in another 20 years.

That said, there are certain limitations. He wins by 9, loses by 4. Every game is a grind. Outside of Stanford this year, has he ever had a chance to go "scoreboard"? Always gonna get close to a FF< will get a few, I am convinced. End game is always made more interesting than it should. A double digit lead always goes the wrong way. Address that, and we would be talking multiple national championships in a few years.

Team just seems to take the foot off the gas too early and coast to the finish line while being passed. Pay for it against teams like Xavier, and Butler.

[Harvey Specter]

Let me just toss this out there. We've made the Sweet 16 five times in seven years under Sean Miller.

Unless my analysis is bad, Lute Olson never made the Sweet 16 five times in seven years while at Arizona.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona ... basketball" target="_blank

Steve Lavin did the EXACT same thing.

Arizona's been to the S-16 a zillion times now. We've won the Pac10/12 more than anybody. Same for the Pac Tourney.

It's time to move on. (It took forever to get rid of Steve Lavin (as well, Georgia's football coach Mark Richt given as another analogy.)

I'm not sure you are making the point you are trying to make.

That loss yesterday looked ENTIRELY the fault of our coach. Indeed, if the coach had been sick, I wonder if Arizona wouldn't have won readily.

The coach, to my eye, was the 'player' (easily) the most in the way of victory.

That's the other "analysis."

Hey Hank the db from sb...

Why not own up to the fact that you are a lifelong ucla fan who happened to attend UA but were never as big of a fan of your own alma mater. I remember you from the Goazcats days even though others may not... Stop pretending you took some solace in the Bruins' loss. You at least used to admit where your allegiances lied.

The only one who needs to move on is you. Or back - to where you belong on bruinzone.

You equate Sean Miller with Steve Lavin? You are a moron... to a number of levels that you can't count to without the help of a calculator.

[Puerco]

Some quick takes from reading through a long, tiresome thread:
1. Miller can't recruit high level point guards. My take and I stand by it. But it's not for lack of trying and it's not because he wants to direct everything himself. Over his tenure at UA, which PG has he been most satisfied with? Yep, TJMC. The highest level true PG we've had since 1998.
2. Arizona does not measure success by Sweet Sixteen appearances. Any fan who does should be ashamed. That's too a low bar for this program.
3. Miller should be on a short leash. Oh for f_ck's sake. We won 35 games, tied for the regular season P12 championship and won the P12 tourney in a year where one of our top 3 players had to retire, another was ineligible for half the season, and our only player who possesses PG skills was out for six weeks or so. The most ridiculous phrase I've read on the internet in months.
4. PJC is a Division 3 backup. That's the second most ridiculous thing I've read. While he has glaring weaknesses and probably doesn't have the physical tools required to play major minutes at UA, he has contributed a lot to this team. It's not his fault that we need more than he can deliver. That's 100% on Sean Miller.
5. We'll play more zone next year. I hope that's right. I'm starting to subscribe to playing zone defense if for no other reason than letting your guys see it in practice. But as I've said before, I like having more than one tool in my toolbox. The packline was insufficient at times this year, and it would have been nice to have another option. This year Sean showed some signs of growth and flexibility, which impressed me a lot. I hope it continues.

[MrMeow]

Let me just toss this out there. We've made the Sweet 16 five times in seven years under Sean Miller.

Unless my analysis is bad, Lute Olson never made the Sweet 16 five times in seven years while at Arizona.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona ... basketball" target="_blank

Steve Lavin did the EXACT same thing.

Arizona's been to the S-16 a zillion times now. We've won the Pac10/12 more than anybody. Same for the Pac Tourney.

It's time to move on. (It took forever to get rid of Steve Lavin (as well, Georgia's football coach Mark Richt given as another analogy.)

I'm not sure you are making the point you are trying to make.

That loss yesterday looked ENTIRELY the fault of our coach. Indeed, if the coach had been sick, I wonder if Arizona wouldn't have won readily.

The coach, to my eye, was the 'player' (easily) the most in the way of victory.

That's the other "analysis."

Hey Hank the db from sb...

Why not own up to the fact that you are a lifelong ucla fan who happened to attend UA but were never as big of a fan of your own alma mater. I remember you from the Goazcats days even though others may not... Stop pretending you took some solace in the Bruins' loss. You at least used to admit where your allegiances lied.

The only one who needs to move on is you. Or back - to where you belong on bruinzone.

You equate Sean Miller with Steve Lavin? You are a moron... to a number of levels that you can't count to without the help of a calculator.

^^This.

I well remember Hank "wet blanket" of SB from many years back. Always ragging on "his" Cats. Always way off in his analysis to make his negative point. The jigs up, Hank.

[Merkin]

Some quick takes from reading through a long, tiresome thread:
1. Miller can't recruit high level point guards. My take and I stand by it. But it's not for lack of trying and it's not because he wants to direct everything himself. Over his tenure at UA, which PG has he been most satisfied with? Yep, TJMC. The highest level true PG we've had since 1998.
2. Arizona does not measure success by Sweet Sixteen appearances. Any fan who does should be ashamed. That's too a low bar for this program.
3. Miller should be on a short leash. Oh for f_ck's sake. We won 35 games, tied for the regular season P12 championship and won the P12 tourney in a year where one of our top 3 players had to retire, another was ineligible for half the season, and our only player who possesses PG skills was out for six weeks or so. The most ridiculous phrase I've read on the internet in months.
4. PJC is a Division 3 backup. That's the second most ridiculous thing I've read. While he has glaring weaknesses and probably doesn't have the physical tools required to play major minutes at UA, he has contributed a lot to this team. It's not his fault that we need more than he can deliver. That's 100% on Sean Miller.
5. We'll play more zone next year. I hope that's right. I'm starting to subscribe to playing zone defense if for no other reason than letting your guys see it in practice. But as I've said before, I like having more than one tool in my toolbox. The packline was insufficient at times this year, and it would have been nice to have another option. This year Sean showed some signs of growth and flexibility, which impressed me a lot. I hope it continues.

Great stuff P, agree with everything you said.

TJ was a very nice mid-major transfer. Don't think he was even ranked out of high school.

[TheGreatCatsby]

A lot has been said about Miller, of course we'd never fire him, he's a great coach...but I'd like to disagree with all the commentary whenever Miller's coaching status is concerned is that it's always said that Miller took over a program in shambles. KO and Pennell were not complete dumpster fires, and we made the sweet 16 under Pennell. I wouldn't say we were a program in ruins, I mean we did and still led the conference in attendance, great arena, only show in town place, and reputation that Lute had built. It's not like Miller was the only coach on earth who could have gotten hired here and recruited and won well enough to make the tournament every year and save us all.

I like Miller, just wish he'd mix things up more. He gets such elite athletes, wish he'd press a bit more at times (just say 5-10 min. a game), play zone at times especially when our man to man is getting burned to a crisp (like 2nd half Oregon PAC-12 championship game, Xavier game for example), keep with it some even if we suck at it first few games, and recruit better point guards. And be slightly less intense, give the kids slightly shorter practices, and some more downtime. Sean's got a GREAT personality, he just doesn't like to show it much publically or something, there's likely some innocuous personal and psychological reasons for that. But other than that, all good.

[NYCat]

To be fair, Arizona during that stretch had Nic Wise, Bayless, Budinger, Jordan Hill, that's 3/4 NBA players for that span and 1 pretty good college player. Jamelle Horne didn't pan out as a 5*/high 4* recruit.

Bayless, i still think is the best player to play at Arizona since Lute. DWill 2nd. Lauri 3rd. Budinger is probably up there too.

[ChooChooCat]

A lot has been said about Miller, of course we'd never fire him, he's a great coach...but I'd like to disagree with all the commentary whenever Miller's coaching status is concerned is that it's always said that Miller took over a program in shambles. KO and Pennell were not complete dumpster fires, and we made the sweet 16 under Pennell. I wouldn't say we were a program in ruins, I mean we did and still led the conference in attendance, great arena, only show in town place, and reputation that Lute had built. It's not like Miller was the only coach on earth who could have gotten hired here and recruited and won well enough to make the tournament every year and save us all.

This was the roster Sean Miller was inheriting when he took the Arizona job:

Kyle Fogg
Garland Judkins
Brendon Lavender
Alex Jacobson
Zane Johnson (decided to transfer)
Nic Wise (he had to recruit him hard to get him to return)
D.J. Shumpert
Jamelle Horne

Arizona had one recruit at the time and it was a JUCO kid named Tremayne Johnson. The program itself wasn't in shambles, but the roster certainly was. Miller landed 5 fairly well rated guys very late in the process to salvage the roster going into that season. Even with those 5 guys the roster was only good enough to finish 1 game above .500. Thank god for the Tim Floyd mess at USC otherwise who knows how that first season and especially the following season would've ended up.

[TheGreatCatsby]

Yeah, but whoever we would have hired would have had his own portfolio of recruits he would have brought with him or got interested in coming. Except Tim Floyd ha

[Bangkok Wildcat]

I, like many of us, have been extremely distraught and depressed about this inexplicable loss to an under-talented Xavier Team. I've NEVER criticized CSM before and love / still love him.....BUT this loss is DEFINITELY on Miller.

This is my first post since the loss and probably will be my only post for a long time from now......but Miller blew it big time. I hate saying these words but they ring true....he did a great job during the regular year and P-12 Tourney but just choked it big time in this game....WTF??? I can't believe he let an inferior team beat us in the last 3 minutes and it really sucks.

End of rant...BTFD....this loss hurts even more than the Wisconsin losses in '14 and '15 as the stars were aligned for a Gonzaga rematch to get us to the FF but Miller blew it big time.

Take care folks and see y'all down the road as I need a serious timeout to continue to deal with this....CSM is in definite need of some improvement before we can ever hope to reach a FF let alone a NC.....he is obviously not there yet but WILL be someday.....just hope it's sooner rather than later.

I have faith in him but this year's loss vs Xavier has made me come back down to earth quite a bit on his abilities and his current limitations.....having said this I still believe we are damned lucky to have him at the helm.

Peace.

[CatFanOneMil]

I know Miller said it was on him, but honestly how do you go up by 8 points and then turn around and let the opponent hit two uncontested threes? That was not Miller that was guys getting distracted.

Once Xavier hit those threes the entire momentum changed and panic began to set in...lots of pressure and yes the guys should have been more confident against the zone, but that is totally a mental thing in EACH INDIVIDUAL PLAYER...

The zone definitely gave us troubles this year, but I honestly think a lot of that had to do with the late nature of incorporating Trier back into the mix so far into the season...he and Kadeem (and Kobi who strangely disappeared once Trier came back) should have been our zone busters...but that would have required them to WORK TOGETHER by driving and dishing...

As it stood whenever either of those guys got the ball late in the clock it ALWAYS turned into hero ball...a few more weeks incorporating Trier and working out the individual mentalities would have made a huge difference.

While I get why Miller said it was on him I am not convinced that ANY coach could have broken through the personality issues in the short window that he had to do it...

It's a team effort...every game we lost we lost as individuals trying to win and not a team...mixing up the rotation because of injuries and suspensions is simply not conducive to getting all the parts in the right place at the right time with the right attitude..

Some of this is on Miller...but not all...

[RaisingArizona]

My main complaint is blowing through our time outs. If we still had one or two I think the chances that we win go up measurably.

[Slappy]

Miller said the team lacked confidence and that's on "him". How does that happen after so many games, practices etc?

You could see it especially in the final few minutes. Surely there are some management "gurus" on this message board. How do you destroy confidence and how do you build confidence from your team? Freedom builds confidence, tight leash, micromanagement, over management, or whatever you want to call it hurts confidence.

There is no joy when confidence suffers, if there is no joy, then we are not at our best. Coach recognizes, the first step to change and improvement is recognition. I fully expect him to fix this.

Look at Oregon. I figured Oregon or UCLA would make a final 4 run. Oregon had tremendous confidence down the stretch, in the post game interviews the players talked about the "joy" of playing the game. In the huddle they had so much confidence, they were barking orders around. I think Oregon wins it all this year.

I suggest anyone that wants to improve management, listen to a Dr Wayne Dyer Tao Te Ching read on youtube. We live in a world of opposites. Attempting to control, actually yields the opposite result. Giving away control, gives the control and results we seek. Bring in the right players, teach them, then let go, that's it.

[az91]

A lot has been said about Miller, of course we'd never fire him, he's a great coach...but I'd like to disagree with all the commentary whenever Miller's coaching status is concerned is that it's always said that Miller took over a program in shambles. KO and Pennell were not complete dumpster fires, and we made the sweet 16 under Pennell. I wouldn't say we were a program in ruins, I mean we did and still led the conference in attendance, great arena, only show in town place, and reputation that Lute had built. It's not like Miller was the only coach on earth who could have gotten hired here and recruited and won well enough to make the tournament every year and save us all.

This was the roster Sean Miller was inheriting when he took the Arizona job:

Kyle Fogg
Garland Judkins
Brendon Lavender
Alex Jacobson
Zane Johnson (decided to transfer)
Nic Wise (he had to recruit him hard to get him to return)
D.J. Shumpert
Jamelle Horne

Arizona had one recruit at the time and it was a JUCO kid named Tremayne Johnson. The program itself wasn't in shambles, but the roster certainly was. Miller landed 5 fairly well rated guys very late in the process to salvage the roster going into that season. Even with those 5 guys the roster was only good enough to finish 1 game above .500. Thank god for the Tim Floyd mess at USC otherwise who knows how that first season and especially the following season would've ended up.

I am in complete agreement. Of all of Miller's accomplishments since he took the job, his initial recruiting to get those five players and prevent a totally wretched, less than 10-win season ranks up there among the best.

[Spaceman Spiff]

A lot has been said about Miller, of course we'd never fire him, he's a great coach...but I'd like to disagree with all the commentary whenever Miller's coaching status is concerned is that it's always said that Miller took over a program in shambles. KO and Pennell were not complete dumpster fires, and we made the sweet 16 under Pennell. I wouldn't say we were a program in ruins, I mean we did and still led the conference in attendance, great arena, only show in town place, and reputation that Lute had built. It's not like Miller was the only coach on earth who could have gotten hired here and recruited and won well enough to make the tournament every year and save us all.

This was the roster Sean Miller was inheriting when he took the Arizona job:

Kyle Fogg
Garland Judkins
Brendon Lavender
Alex Jacobson
Zane Johnson (decided to transfer)
Nic Wise (he had to recruit him hard to get him to return)
D.J. Shumpert
Jamelle Horne

Arizona had one recruit at the time and it was a JUCO kid named Tremayne Johnson. The program itself wasn't in shambles, but the roster certainly was. Miller landed 5 fairly well rated guys very late in the process to salvage the roster going into that season. Even with those 5 guys the roster was only good enough to finish 1 game above .500. Thank god for the Tim Floyd mess at USC otherwise who knows how that first season and especially the following season would've ended up.

This. The Sweet 16 under Pennell camouflaged that we had 4 Pac 12 level players and no recruits when Miller took over. If Wise had left, it would have been 3.

If not dumpster fire, major rebuilding project is certainly apt. I brought up repeated Sweet 16's because I consider those to be a major indicator of program health. UConn made their NC run, but what since? Miller has taken a program that had very little talent returning and none coming in to one that produces reliable success and good/great recruiting every year.

He's not perfect, but you don't worry about choking in the Sweet 16 when you're starting Wise, Fogg, Judkins, Horne and Jacobson.