Who's staying? Who's going?

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Tue May 02, 2017 4:18 pm

PHXCATS wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
EVCat wrote:This isn't a Miller era thing, though...We landed Josiah, who EVERYONE wanted, Momo was very good, Lyons was a score-first point but was successful, and then we had TJ.

It's only been since TJ left that we have suffered at the point. And it appears that is partially due to fear of Ramon going Ramon. But Miller has not totally missed his entire time here at point. It's more a collision of a couple of factors that have led to our current situation. And many programs would be happy with PJC at point...just not us, not with the talent we have around him.
Momo was a result of a desperate push to pull what we could. Lyons was a result of the Josiah flameout. Josiah was more of a character misread at a time we weren't really that choosy.

It's a semi-viable argument that PJC being the man is the only true miss of Miller's PG recruiting. The others...well, it's easy to argue it is the best we could do in that particular situation.
1) I am a firm believer that the pg spot is not what kept Arizona back the last two years. If it is it is due to the starting pg getting in early foul trouble and not talent.

2)It has been 8 years now under Miller, dont give me the best we could do crap at this stage.

I am pretty sure the actual comment in bold above was the "others...were the best we could do", referring to the years leading up to PJC.

So where the hell is he saying PJC in year 8 is the best we could do?

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Tue May 02, 2017 4:27 pm

I think we're getting a PG next class guys

prh · Post by **prh** » Tue May 02, 2017 4:31 pm

PHXCATS wrote:What is the real issue with PJC? Turnovers? Points? Boards? Assists?

Per 40 Minutes the drop from TJ as a senior vs PJC as a jr is not that great.

TJ per 40 minutes senior year 13.6 Points 8.3 Assists 5 Rebounds 2.9 Steals 2.8 Turnovers 49.8% FG 32.1% 3PG 82.9% FT
PJC per 40 minutes last year (jr year) 9.5 Points 6.6 Assists 4 Rebounds 1.9 Steals 2.1 Turnovers 42.9% FG 42.3% 3PG 70.4 FT

The team shot better from the field in TJ's senior year than the UA team did last year, not that it makes a 1.7 assist difference per game though.

Much more concerned about the defense of Allen leaving than anything else with the pg position.

Are you saying that PJC is just almost like having TJ? That might be the worst take ever on this board.

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Tue May 02, 2017 4:39 pm

Josiah had so much potential. With Lyons and TJ we know he can bring in elite PGs. He just made a major mistake with PJC. Hopefully Romar can pull a rabbit out of the hat before the season tips. At this point, Id rather see Alonzo at the point.

PHXCATS · Post by **PHXCATS** » Tue May 02, 2017 4:41 pm

prh wrote:
PHXCATS wrote:What is the real issue with PJC? Turnovers? Points? Boards? Assists?

Per 40 Minutes the drop from TJ as a senior vs PJC as a jr is not that great.

TJ per 40 minutes senior year 13.6 Points 8.3 Assists 5 Rebounds 2.9 Steals 2.8 Turnovers 49.8% FG 32.1% 3PG 82.9% FT
PJC per 40 minutes last year (jr year) 9.5 Points 6.6 Assists 4 Rebounds 1.9 Steals 2.1 Turnovers 42.9% FG 42.3% 3PG 70.4 FT

The team shot better from the field in TJ's senior year than the UA team did last year, not that it makes a 1.7 assist difference per game though.

Much more concerned about the defense of Allen leaving than anything else with the pg position.
Are you saying that PJC is just almost like having TJ? That might be the worst take ever on this board.

I am asking why people are so upset about PJC. Stats wise there is not a huge drop off. Intangibles? Defense? TJ was a superior player no doubt.

I am hoping for more than "he sucks"

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Tue May 02, 2017 5:24 pm

PHXCATS wrote:
prh wrote:
PHXCATS wrote:What is the real issue with PJC? Turnovers? Points? Boards? Assists?

Per 40 Minutes the drop from TJ as a senior vs PJC as a jr is not that great.

TJ per 40 minutes senior year 13.6 Points 8.3 Assists 5 Rebounds 2.9 Steals 2.8 Turnovers 49.8% FG 32.1% 3PG 82.9% FT
PJC per 40 minutes last year (jr year) 9.5 Points 6.6 Assists 4 Rebounds 1.9 Steals 2.1 Turnovers 42.9% FG 42.3% 3PG 70.4 FT

The team shot better from the field in TJ's senior year than the UA team did last year, not that it makes a 1.7 assist difference per game though.

Much more concerned about the defense of Allen leaving than anything else with the pg position.
Are you saying that PJC is just almost like having TJ? That might be the worst take ever on this board.
I am asking why people are so upset about PJC. Stats wise there is not a huge drop off. Intangibles? Defense? TJ was a superior player no doubt.

I am hoping for more than "he sucks"

Then look at 97's assessment above. You could counter-argue those observations. Nobody here is limiting this to "he sucks", but in characterizing the debate by that simplification, you're positioning your own admission of TJs superiority as the nuanced take in a discussion otherwise filled with over-simplification, while at the same time walking back your favorable comparison of PJC to TJ. We could outline for you again the qualities at issue with PJC, but that would just mask the intention of your rhetoric, which everyone here knows.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue May 02, 2017 5:35 pm

PHXCATS wrote:
prh wrote:
PHXCATS wrote:What is the real issue with PJC? Turnovers? Points? Boards? Assists?

Per 40 Minutes the drop from TJ as a senior vs PJC as a jr is not that great.

TJ per 40 minutes senior year 13.6 Points 8.3 Assists 5 Rebounds 2.9 Steals 2.8 Turnovers 49.8% FG 32.1% 3PG 82.9% FT
PJC per 40 minutes last year (jr year) 9.5 Points 6.6 Assists 4 Rebounds 1.9 Steals 2.1 Turnovers 42.9% FG 42.3% 3PG 70.4 FT

The team shot better from the field in TJ's senior year than the UA team did last year, not that it makes a 1.7 assist difference per game though.

Much more concerned about the defense of Allen leaving than anything else with the pg position.
Are you saying that PJC is just almost like having TJ? That might be the worst take ever on this board.
I am asking why people are so upset about PJC. Stats wise there is not a huge drop off. Intangibles? Defense? TJ was a superior player no doubt.

I am hoping for more than "he sucks"

PJC is a better spot up 3 point shooter than TJ. I would say TJ is better at everything else. Defense is a major, major difference.

That's it. PJC is better in one area and TJ takes everything else, some by yawning margins. TJ is also far more consistent. Part of Parker's issue is you never really know what you're getting.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Tue May 02, 2017 5:42 pm

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Tue May 02, 2017 6:31 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote: PJC is a better spot up 3 point shooter than TJ. I would say TJ is better at everything else. Defense is a major, major difference.

That's it. PJC is better in one area and TJ takes everything else, some by yawning margins. TJ is also far more consistent. Part of Parker's issue is you never really know what you're getting.

PJC is usually the worst defensive guard on the floor. Some midgets do OK and make up for their shortness with quickness, hustle and court awareness, but PJC doesn't have that.

TJ of course was usually the best defensive guard on the floor. Just so much court awareness.

As mentioned above, TJ is a real leader. PJC has no leadership ability.

Likewise with consistency. Remember Sophomore PJC was good at McKale, but awful on the road? We never knew who was going to show up last year, although he did have some good road games.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue May 02, 2017 7:02 pm

Merkin wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote: PJC is a better spot up 3 point shooter than TJ. I would say TJ is better at everything else. Defense is a major, major difference.

That's it. PJC is better in one area and TJ takes everything else, some by yawning margins. TJ is also far more consistent. Part of Parker's issue is you never really know what you're getting.
PJC is usually the worst defensive guard on the floor. Some midgets do OK and make up for their shortness with quickness, hustle and court awareness, but PJC doesn't have that.

TJ of course was usually the best defensive guard on the floor. Just so much court awareness.

As mentioned above, TJ is a real leader. PJC has no leadership ability.

Likewise with consistency. Remember Sophomore PJC was good at McKale, but awful on the road? We never knew who was going to show up last year, although he did have some good road games.

Another huge difference, IMO, is that TJ was much, much stronger with the ball. Parker does not face pressure well. When he is matched with a physical, quick defender, my heart is always in my throat.

Jwsisliving · Post by **Jwsisliving** » Tue May 02, 2017 7:09 pm

Can't you guys enjoy anything? So much over-analysis, criticism, 'I would've done this better', and just generally ragging on players (it's like their good games and good qualities don't count).

Just sucking the joy out of the game.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue May 02, 2017 7:19 pm

One other thing.

I feel bad for PJC. A lot of what 97 says, right or wrong, comes from Arizona's tremendous PG lineage. When 97 talks about what a PG should be, I think of Mike Bibby vs North Carolina. He was a freshman PG in the Final Four facing an excellent backcourt in Cota and Williams and two future NBA allstars, plus a hall of fame coach. Bibby just killed them.

That's what you want from a PG. No fear and dominating a great opponent on the biggest stage. Even if Parker gives us a good year, he will never be in that mold.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue May 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Jwsisliving wrote:Can't you guys enjoy anything? So much over-analysis, criticism, 'I would've done this better', and just generally ragging on players (it's like their good games and good qualities don't count).

Just sucking the joy out of the game.

I thought overanalysis, monday morning quarterbacking and just generally sucking the joy out of the game was why message boards were created. Don't tell me I've been neglecting my family in favor of vicariously living my life through kids who couldn't care less about me under false pretenses?

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Wed May 03, 2017 12:18 pm

97cats wrote:
gumby wrote: Missing the point. Miller should catch the grief then. Not Parker ... over and over and over.
the point, Cartwright is still playing, and Cartwright is still the guy, so while its Miller's fault that hasnt changed, Cartwright will still get critiqued by me, especially when people say that Arizona has one of the five best back-courts in the country going into next year (which is why i originally chimed in yesterday) or state that Arizona is one of the favorites for the final four.

regardless of whos fault, its Miller's BTW, i will say till the day is long that those opinions are not shared by me, and that the glaring hole in Arizona's all around FF caliber roster is at PG.

so just cause its not Parker's fault hes in the position hes in doesnt mean hes beyond critique -- i can tell you when he plays good (which isnt often) hes praised more than anyone.

im fair on this, people dont like the takes/opinions, thats fine.

but as long as hes the guy and plays, Cartwright is certainly not beyond praise or criticism from me just cause its not his fault hes in the position hes in at Arizona.

It's never been my position that a particular player cannot be critiqued. And I'm certainly in no position to make such a demand (and I wouldn't). I agree that PG is a problem.

You will continue to criticize the player more than the coach, though you acknowledge he is 100 percent responsible.

So carry on, my wayward son.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Wed May 03, 2017 12:43 pm

I keep opening this thread with the hope I'll get some info on who is staying and who is going.

Probably about as useful as hoping PJC grows three inches and puts on 20 lbs.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Wed May 03, 2017 1:08 pm

Chicat wrote:I keep opening this thread with the hope I'll get some info on who is staying and who is going.

Probably about as useful as hoping PJC grows three inches and puts on 20 lbs.

I am staying.

BC97 was benched for a while, but he is back.

Machina may be wearing a different jersey/checking in under a different name.

No point guards are coming.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Wed May 03, 2017 2:45 pm

Lol, nice.

HiCat · Post by **HiCat** » Thu May 04, 2017 3:15 am

Sean Miller preparing for life without Rawle Alkins, Chance Comanche — or both

By Bruce Pascoe Arizona Daily Star May 3, 2017 Updated 4 hrs ago

“I think we’ll bring in a class of six,” Miller said, after discussing his four fall signees. “I know some of you are curious over who’s gonna stay and who’s gonna leave. If I knew, I would tell you. I do know those four are coming in. I think that everybody here should be excited about a class of six.”

While Alkins and Comanche go through the predraft process, Miller’s staff hasn’t stopped recruiting – possibly even to fill their spots. Among other recent developments, UA is scheduled to host transfer forwards Cameron Johnson (Pitt) and Chase Jeter (Duke) for a recruiting visit this weekend, while five-star high school wing Brian Bowen is still considering UA.

http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcat ... 3f74e.html" target="_blank

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Thu May 04, 2017 5:41 pm

EVCat wrote:
Chicat wrote:I keep opening this thread with the hope I'll get some info on who is staying and who is going.

Probably about as useful as hoping PJC grows three inches and puts on 20 lbs.
I am staying.

BC97 was benched for a while, but he is back.

Machina may be wearing a different jersey/checking in under a different name.

No point guards are coming.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Thu May 04, 2017 5:42 pm

HiCat wrote:Sean Miller preparing for life without Rawle Alkins, Chance Comanche — or both

By Bruce Pascoe Arizona Daily Star May 3, 2017 Updated 4 hrs ago

“I think we’ll bring in a class of six,” Miller said, after discussing his four fall signees. “I know some of you are curious over who’s gonna stay and who’s gonna leave. If I knew, I would tell you. I do know those four are coming in. I think that everybody here should be excited about a class of six.”

While Alkins and Comanche go through the predraft process, Miller’s staff hasn’t stopped recruiting – possibly even to fill their spots. Among other recent developments, UA is scheduled to host transfer forwards Cameron Johnson (Pitt) and Chase Jeter (Duke) for a recruiting visit this weekend, while five-star high school wing Brian Bowen is still considering UA.

http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcat ... 3f74e.html" target="_blank

Note the part where Miller says Chance and Rawle are staying true to school work, though the reporter did not confirm with Snapchat.

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Fri May 05, 2017 11:52 am

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Fri May 05, 2017 11:55 am

Good luck kid. This was not unexpected.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Fri May 05, 2017 11:58 am

Good luck to Chance.

I would like to say I'm more positive about how this works out, but hey, good luck to him.

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:00 pm

He must really want to do a lot of traveling around Europe

Good luck Chance

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:01 pm

Going to miss seeing CC develop over what I thought would be a 4 year career. Just hate what is happening with college basketball. Good luck CC

97cats · Post by **97cats** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:02 pm

"showcasing my talent"

another person with their head up their ass

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:07 pm

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:08 pm

My thoughts exactly, 97.

Sure, I wish him good luck, he's gonna need it, but I also tend to see this more as an opportunity squandered from both CC and Arizona.

He would've been tremendous for us next year, and subsequently for his pro prospects. Oh well.

HiCat · Post by **HiCat** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:13 pm

Rawle Alkins’ NBA draft decision could impact Cameron Johnson’s future
5 comments
Johnson will be in Tucson on Friday
by Jason Bartel May 5, 2017, 7:30am PDT

“They have a spot with [Rawle] Alkins leaving, if he stays in the draft, obviously,” Johnson told Daniels. “With him leaving they have a spot they need me to fill and there’s a role for me there with the rest of the team there. There’s a spot carved out for me there, that’s their pitch.”

http://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball ... r-kentucky" target="_blank

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:13 pm

LOL, good luck with that CC.

This modern era sucks vis-a-vis roster retention.

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:16 pm

Alieberman wrote:He must really want to do a lot of traveling around Europe

The marginal parts, that is.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:23 pm

Is Turkey Europe now/again?

I know that was a hot debate around 2004.

Maybe Chance has an interest in near east culture and history? Professor Nava was that good of a professor (and a huge backer of basketball player education)

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:24 pm

Wasn't going to play this year, if we land Bol he wasn't going to play next year either. Jeter was possibly also going to take his mins.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:25 pm

I put Chance just about the Grant Jarrett line of CATs I'll be interested in how their doing vs pit stop player afterthoughts.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:27 pm

Really NY? I thought CC demonstrated great development all year and was really looking to capitalize on it with a bigger role and leadership position next year.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:27 pm

Chance left before even being a starter.

I hope we can keep Rawle. He's the more important of the two.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:35 pm

NYCat wrote:Wasn't going to play this year, if we land Bol he wasn't going to play next year either. Jeter was possibly also going to take his mins.

Wasn't going to start sure, but yeah the guy was in for all the back up 5 and maybe some back up 4 minutes that he could handle. Meh.

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:43 pm

Ayton's getting all the backup 5 minutes

psiclist23 · Post by **psiclist23** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:45 pm

These kids must have an unrealistic view of how good players in the NBA really are. Because again, if you can't even break into the starting line-up on your college team, how are you possibly going to make it in the pros? I guess being idolized your entire life instills unrealistic expectations. SMH

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:45 pm

Main Event wrote:Ayton's getting all the backup 5 minutes

Well now he is.

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:49 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:
Main Event wrote:Ayton's getting all the backup 5 minutes
Well now he is.

He was before

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:50 pm

Main Event wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
Main Event wrote:Ayton's getting all the backup 5 minutes
Well now he is.
He was before

He'd get minutes at the 5, but not all of them. Don't be ridiculous.

What Lauri had going last year is what Ayton will have next.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:52 pm

We desperately need another big man for next year now. Paper thin

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:53 pm

ASUHATER! wrote:We desperately need another big man for next year now. Paper thin

We have 4 guys to play the 2 post positions. That's not paper thin. If we get Johnson then he can move over to the 4 in a small lineup too.

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Fri May 05, 2017 12:56 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:
Main Event wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
Main Event wrote:Ayton's getting all the backup 5 minutes
Well now he is.
He was before
He'd get minutes at the 5, but not all of them. Don't be ridiculous.

What Lauri had going last year is what Ayton will have next.

Lauri isn't built like Ayton nor are his strengths at the 5 like Ayton. His minutes were going down. This isn't even including Ira and Pinder who are natural 4's

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Fri May 05, 2017 1:02 pm

Main Event wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
Main Event wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
Main Event wrote:Ayton's getting all the backup 5 minutes
Well now he is.
He was before
He'd get minutes at the 5, but not all of them. Don't be ridiculous.

What Lauri had going last year is what Ayton will have next.
Lauri isn't built like Ayton nor are his strengths at the 5 like Ayton. His minutes were going down. This isn't even including Ira and Pinder who are natural 4's

Pinder would've redshirted had Comanche returned and I know that for a fact.

Comanche would've gotten time, but it's all moot. I do know Miller didn't shed one tear over this decision though.

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Fri May 05, 2017 1:06 pm

He would have gotten time, just less than what he got this year

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Fri May 05, 2017 1:06 pm

psiclist23 wrote:These kids must have an unrealistic view of how good players in the NBA really are. Because again, if you can't even break into the starting line-up on your college team, how are you possibly going to make it in the pros? I guess being idolized your entire life instills unrealistic expectations. SMH

"Man, Chief...that sucks you don't start. You way better. Bro, you lead the team in dunks. You finish, bro. This is bullshit"

"Yeah...I shoulda been starting. Coach doesn't like me. All on me about class and shit. What the fuck?"

"Bro...you should go pro. Can you imagine it? Think about it...girls, money, blockin' LeBron....we...I mean you...should totally do that."

"Yeah...I'd cuff BronBron. That'd be on SportsCenter. Can't get on SportsCenter with this fool never playin me.

"Yup, yup. Bro...I took some law classes online. I can check shit out for you. We...I mean you are gonna be stylin...."

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Fri May 05, 2017 1:13 pm

Main Event wrote:

1. It's "forgo." Forego was a horse.

2. Good luck.

3. Parting Gift

4. Who has next?

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Fri May 05, 2017 1:14 pm

EVCat wrote:
psiclist23 wrote:These kids must have an unrealistic view of how good players in the NBA really are. Because again, if you can't even break into the starting line-up on your college team, how are you possibly going to make it in the pros? I guess being idolized your entire life instills unrealistic expectations. SMH
"Man, Chief...that sucks you don't start. You way better. Bro, you lead the team in dunks. You finish, bro. This is bullshit"

"Yeah...I shoulda been starting. Coach doesn't like me. All on me about class and shit. What the fuck?"

"Bro...you should go pro. Can you imagine it? Think about it...girls, money, blockin' LeBron....we...I mean you...should totally do that."

"Yeah...I'd cuff BronBron. That'd be on SportsCenter. Can't get on SportsCenter with this fool never playin me.

"Yup, yup. Bro...I took some law classes online. I can check shit out for you. We...I mean you are gonna be stylin...."

The Forego Whisperer.

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