let's talk '17

[Puerco]

I understand your base objection. I prefer to believe that NCAA sports provides a lot of value to a lot of student athletes, not the least the opportunity for a free education. Should the swimmer be punished because the sport is not a revenue generator? Should football players be given more than gymnasts? I choose to think not.

So I have two answers. The first is in the context of leaving early. The system works much better for non-revenue athletes simply because the big money in pro leagues isn't there. They don't have the same incentive to jump prior to a full ride.

Saying football and basketball equal other sports really just is not true. They're apples and oranges. See the football facilities for Oregon, Bama and Clemson.

My second answer is why I feel that universities should do the same thing for all athletes in terms of scholarships, but allow athletes to earn from non-school sources (i.e., boosters). I am not offended by the idea a player will recognize his or her actual market value. You have the base of access to scholarships, then the market sets the rest. I like that.

I didn't say the sports were the same. I did say the athletes were. And oh my god, did you say you think it'd be okay for booster to pay athletes? We might as well turn Duke into the Yankees. Pay to play is not a good idea for college sports.

I did say that. Right now, boosters buy players extravagant facilities as proxy. Look at Oregon's football facility. Players get tons of free stuff from AAU shoe sponsors, then magically choose Adidas schools.

There's a cottage industry built off the backdoor funneling of benefits to players because it can't happen legitimately. Yes, I think it's fine to distribute the money to players directly instead of routing it through the proxies.

I really do pooh-pooh the arguments about a slanted playing field. Those arguments exist in a world where Alabama and Kentucky don't generate huge booster money that allows for repeat #1 classes. The field is already tilted.

I think you and I have vastly different ideas on what college sports should be.

[rgdeuce]

RG, I agree on Kendrick. Since GKMC, his beat selection is all over the place and his quality is inconsistent. It does give off the feel of a guy trying too hard to be different.

Control is a good example. It's a solid beat, but not a HOFer like Nuthin but a G Thang, Regulators, Gin and Juice, California Love and the other West greats. But he hops on it, gets fired up and delivers possibly the best rap verse of the 2000's. I downloaded only his part bc, even though I respect Big Sean and Jay Electronica's verses, they just pale.

That's all he needs, an album of solid beats that he could elevate into something special. I felt that way about GKMC. TPAB and beyond, they just have a lot of lulls and missteps. Heck, the "It's Alive" beat from the Dre Beats commercial was more compelling than anything on Damn or TPAB.

It makes me sound like an old person, but at least it isn't mumble rap, which I effing hate. Guys like Kendrick and J Cole are great lyrically, but need to cede some beat control.

And until the dominoes with Rawle, Bowen and Johnson start to fall, this is as good a topic as any. I have to take a long drive for work tomorrow. I think I'll bring The Chronic, Doggystyle, Aquemini and other classics it's been a minute since and try to enjoy it a bit.

Kendrick is just hell bent on being a legend and having his name mentioned with Big, Nas, Pac, Jay, Rakim, etc. So rather than just making good music, he's trying to change the game, be unique and separate himself from his peers, and hit it out of the park with critics. You cant go into the studio and say you are going to make another illmatic or the chronic, those come from being in a zone and the perfect blend of several other things. I feel you on the old man thing. I keep up with a few of the newer guys, but most of the time in the car I am listening to something from the 1992 to 1996 range with 1987 to 1991 being the next era with the most burn.

The "try too hard" thing is why I think people putting J Cole on some sort of pedestal is a joke. He is incredibly overrated. He's a quality MC, but he is generic and sounds like a mashup of the greats before him. Like someone took a style from each great, poured them in a test tube and tried to make the perfect MC in a lab. You can basically find a dude who sounds like J Cole in any town in America. Ive heard Cole before a million times, but Ive never heard Kendrick before, if that makes sense. But, this generation so badly wants to have a GOAT. They werent around for Jordan, Nas, Big, Pac, so they naturally try to elevate people like Lebron and Cole.

[Beachcat97]

Jordan Tucker to Duke.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Brandon Randolph at the BIL allstar game:

https://youtu.be/_Hp-FU4gC0k" target="_blank

[ChooChooCat]

Jordan Tucker to Duke.

Dude is gonna get recruited over tomorrow. Dumb decision.

[Beachcat97]

Jordan Tucker to Duke.

Dude is gonna get recruited over tomorrow. Dumb decision.

Well, then he can follow the Chase Jeter path. Transfer out to a program that values him.

[ChooChooCat]

Jordan Tucker to Duke.

Dude is gonna get recruited over tomorrow. Dumb decision.

Well, then he can follow the Chase Jeter path. Transfer out to a program that values him.

Poor dude had numerous programs recruiting him for a long time that valued him. Chose the school who gave him an offer a week before his decision date.

[ChooChooCat]

Duval officially to Duke.

[Beachcat97]

Duke has an amazing '17 class.

[Merkin]

No surprise at all about Duval.

Miller has got to get better at finishing PGs.

[ChooChooCat]

Duke has an amazing '17 class.

It's not better than their '16 class and look how far that class took them.

[Beachcat97]

No surprise at all about Duval.

Miller has got to get better at finishing PGs.

It may take one more recruiting cycle for the Romar effect to set in.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Duval officially to Duke.

I've said this before, but Duke/K's abrupt transition from solid recruiting program into juggernaut who pull whoever they want is interesting. Right around 2010, Duke morphed from a good recruiting program to a one and done talent factory like Kentucky.

[Beachcat97]

Duval officially to Duke.

I've said this before, but Duke/K's abrupt transition from solid recruiting program into juggernaut who pull whoever they want is interesting. Right around 2010, Duke morphed from a good recruiting program to a one and done talent factory like Kentucky.

They've changed with the times, right? Do you think Duke is content to be merely a solid recruiting program while UK and KU and others catch the biggest fish every year? No way. They want to win, even if it means taking one and done guys. You're right, though: they changed their philosophy on this at some point.

[gumby]

Frank Jackson staying League. Wide open for Duval.

[Beachcat97]

Frank Jackson staying League. Wide open for Duval.

Frank Jackson is cray cray.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Duval officially to Duke.

I've said this before, but Duke/K's abrupt transition from solid recruiting program into juggernaut who pull whoever they want is interesting. Right around 2010, Duke morphed from a good recruiting program to a one and done talent factory like Kentucky.

They've changed with the times, right? Do you think Duke is content to be merely a solid recruiting program while UK and KU and others catch the biggest fish every year? No way. They want to win, even if it means taking one and done guys. You're right, though: they changed their philosophy on this at some point.

Yeah, except it was more than a philosophical change. It isn't easy to pull the Kyrie Irvings, Jabari Parkers and Jahlil Okafors. It's how K has slid into pulling those guys in a way that only Kentucky comes close to, that's what blows me away.

[ChooChooCat]

Duval officially to Duke.

I've said this before, but Duke/K's abrupt transition from solid recruiting program into juggernaut who pull whoever they want is interesting. Right around 2010, Duke morphed from a good recruiting program to a one and done talent factory like Kentucky.

And it's worked out for them as often as it's worked out for Kentucky honestly. I mean they consistently have success, but only the perfect groups won it all. I don't think Duke's team is that next year and I am damn certain Kentucky's team next year isn't either.

[Puerco]

Duval officially to Duke.

I've said this before, but Duke/K's abrupt transition from solid recruiting program into juggernaut who pull whoever they want is interesting. Right around 2010, Duke morphed from a good recruiting program to a one and done talent factory like Kentucky.

And it's worked out for them as often as it's worked out for Kentucky honestly. I mean they consistently have success, but only the perfect groups won it all. I don't think Duke's team is that next year and I am damn certain Kentucky's team next year isn't either.

Which is more often than it's worked for other programs, right? Until things change, pulling classes full of one and done talent appears to be the way to go. And if you can keep them around by crying a few times? Hell, that's even better.

[ChooChooCat]

Duval officially to Duke.

I've said this before, but Duke/K's abrupt transition from solid recruiting program into juggernaut who pull whoever they want is interesting. Right around 2010, Duke morphed from a good recruiting program to a one and done talent factory like Kentucky.

And it's worked out for them as often as it's worked out for Kentucky honestly. I mean they consistently have success, but only the perfect groups won it all. I don't think Duke's team is that next year and I am damn certain Kentucky's team next year isn't either.

Which is more often than it's worked for other programs, right? Until things change, pulling classes full of one and done talent appears to be the way to go. And if you can keep them around by crying a few times? Hell, that's even better.

I mean it's worked less than the Villanova, UNC, Louisville, UCONN, etc. model. So far you have 2012 Kentucky and 2015 Duke and that's it. Like I said the perfect group can get it done and that's what UK and Duke had those years. 2018 Duke/Kentucky will be good, but won't be anywhere close.

[dmjcat]

No surprise at all about Duval.

Miller has got to get better at finishing PGs.

Personally I am not so concerned about losing top PG talent to the Dukes/UK's of the world. We are not going to consistently
beat them at recruiting anything.

What I am concerned about is losing the top PG talent on the West Coast (Ball, Hands) to UCLA

[Spaceman Spiff]

Duval officially to Duke.

I've said this before, but Duke/K's abrupt transition from solid recruiting program into juggernaut who pull whoever they want is interesting. Right around 2010, Duke morphed from a good recruiting program to a one and done talent factory like Kentucky.

And it's worked out for them as often as it's worked out for Kentucky honestly. I mean they consistently have success, but only the perfect groups won it all. I don't think Duke's team is that next year and I am damn certain Kentucky's team next year isn't either.

Which is more often than it's worked for other programs, right? Until things change, pulling classes full of one and done talent appears to be the way to go. And if you can keep them around by crying a few times? Hell, that's even better.

I'm not sure there's a definite way to do it. As Choochoo says, there's probably more teams that have won a natty with less of a OAD approach. That isn't necessarily odd, because there are far fewer programs pulling the sort of OAD programs it takes to win it all. Both approaches have positives and negatives.

[EVCat]

Kendrick is just hell bent on being a legend and having his name mentioned with Big, Nas, Pac, Jay, Rakim, etc.

Kendrick had to come and get some of that U2 juice...

(Old guy here...love U2).

[EVCat]

Duval officially to Duke.

I've said this before, but Duke/K's abrupt transition from solid recruiting program into juggernaut who pull whoever they want is interesting. Right around 2010, Duke morphed from a good recruiting program to a one and done talent factory like Kentucky.

And it's worked out for them as often as it's worked out for Kentucky honestly. I mean they consistently have success, but only the perfect groups won it all. I don't think Duke's team is that next year and I am damn certain Kentucky's team next year isn't either.

And it is really hard for it to work out. In the one and done environment, you need everything to work out, and then supplement the years when everyone leaves with scrambled transfers and core 4 year guys.

It's why, again, I don't get all pissy about Miller not making a Final Four. The fact that we have lost so much and been so consistently in the 2nd weekend is impressive. The only year we were clearly Final Four elite was 2014, and the breaks were against us, literally and figuratively (Bash broken bones, Jerrett having left). 2015 was definitely Final Four material, but not just so clearly elite that the Final Four should have just been offered at the beginning of the year like that 2014 year.

I still wonder if we would have lost a game without BASH's injury.

The focus on how others have done it and why haven't we been able to do it is purely Final Four-centric, which I am on the record stating how ridiculous I think that is. The fact is we have been very successful navigating the one and done era. Just because Nova pops up with a title one year, or South Carolina makes a Final Four, doesn't make those methods successful. Because they were one year results. Our coach has shown a consistent ability to navigate the loss of personnel early (sometimes ridiculously so) and keep us competitive and thriving with 2nd weekend tournament results on average. That one little thing hasn't yet gone right. I look at the 2011 team as the example of a team that can just get lucky. If that ball goes down vs UConn, and it was on line, we get a Final Four in year 2 that we probably didn't deserve. As is, we got an Elite Eight that was above ability. But are we going to say Coach Sean Miller's value is judged on that shot not staying down? One shot on line that went halfway down and spun out? Miller is not an elite coach because of a physical force of spin that caused that on line ball to spin out, and if it had stayed, he would be?

That is what pisses me off about this Final Four obsession. So if the ref makes the right fucking call on Nick's drive in 2014, Miller is elite, but isn't because the call was bad?

Nope...

[Spaceman Spiff]

Kendrick is just hell bent on being a legend and having his name mentioned with Big, Nas, Pac, Jay, Rakim, etc.

Kendrick had to come and get some of that U2 juice...

(Old guy here...love U2).

I wasn't a big fan of the collaboration with U2. It left me thinking Kendrick didn't find what he was looking for in U2. Will he still persist?

[EVCat]

I wasn't a big fan of the collaboration with U2. It left me thinking Kendrick didn't find what he was looking for in U2. Will he still persist?

I thought the U2 piece sounded promising tho. They seem to be entering another cycle of providing a quality product right when people thought they were done for. This coming album has taken forever...I hope it doesn't suffer from what so many modern albums suffer from...overproduction/too many producers. It's that idea that individual songs are it and albums no longer matter. But no one can purposely write an album of singles...

And LeBron dunked once with U2 on the arena PA. And LeBron plays basketball. And so does the U of A. But LeBron didn't go to the U of A. I blame Lute for missing on recruiting ...

(aaannd...I keep the post on topic).

[midnightx]

Duval officially to Duke.

I've said this before, but Duke/K's abrupt transition from solid recruiting program into juggernaut who pull whoever they want is interesting. Right around 2010, Duke morphed from a good recruiting program to a one and done talent factory like Kentucky.

They've changed with the times, right? Do you think Duke is content to be merely a solid recruiting program while UK and KU and others catch the biggest fish every year? No way. They want to win, even if it means taking one and done guys. You're right, though: they changed their philosophy on this at some point.

A big difference is that UK and KU are basic state schools and a lot of the one-and-done kids can typically qualify for admission, even without basketball. Duke is a private university, one of the most difficult schools to get into in the world -- few if any of these one-and-done players could ever qualify on their own. That is the biggest joke of all. Not every player Coach K wants should be able to attend Duke based on its admission standards that apply to every other student applicant in the world. Yes, student athletes receive preferential treatment and certain accommodations, but people forget how prestigious Duke is. Does Duval have a 4.0+ GPA and is he in the top 5% nationally with his SAT scores? Yeah, right.

[Beachcat97]

Does Duval have a 4.0+ GPA and is he in the top 5% nationally with his SAT scores? Yeah, right.

Great point. Duke has seemingly relaxed their admissions standards to the point where talent (and presumably a high school diploma?) is/are all that's required.

But this is the path that K chose to take. If there was a time when he held recruits to the same standard as every other Duke applicant, that time has passed.

[PennZona20]

Duval officially to Duke.

I've said this before, but Duke/K's abrupt transition from solid recruiting program into juggernaut who pull whoever they want is interesting. Right around 2010, Duke morphed from a good recruiting program to a one and done talent factory like Kentucky.

And it's worked out for them as often as it's worked out for Kentucky honestly. I mean they consistently have success, but only the perfect groups won it all. I don't think Duke's team is that next year and I am damn certain Kentucky's team next year isn't either.

Which is more often than it's worked for other programs, right? Until things change, pulling classes full of one and done talent appears to be the way to go. And if you can keep them around by crying a few times? Hell, that's even better.

I mean it's worked less than the Villanova, UNC, Louisville, UCONN, etc. model. So far you have 2012 Kentucky and 2015 Duke and that's it. Like I said the perfect group can get it done and that's what UK and Duke had those years. 2018 Duke/Kentucky will be good, but won't be anywhere close.

I hear ya but that discounts some FF runs by UK lately. They back to back TJ years they made FF and title game. They ran into luckbox UConn as the most talented 8 seed in history who put it together in time and the same Sam Dekker and Frank effect we did.

They also went ice cold in elite 8 game v wvu w Wall and Boogie and co and for some reason kept jacking 3s.

Sure they had it backfire every once in awhile w the Nerlens class that went to NIT, but I'm sure Arizona fans would kill for the UK dance success since Cal left Memphis.

[Puerco]

Yeah, the Duke-UK strategy isn't infallible. It's just that two of the top 5 programs have had excellent success recently using it. They're not more successful than the field, but each is more successful than just about anyone else.

EV, you make good points, but the fact remains that Miller has not done what it takes to win a natty. When you fail, it's not just bad luck. There is always something you coulda shoulda done to have avoided the problem. Having a better replacement for Bash is a hypothetical example. Bad call on the last play? Don't let your team be in a position where a single blown call loses the game. Etc. etc. Miller is most certainly elite, but he's not above critique.

[ChooChooCat]

Yeah, the Duke-UK strategy isn't infallible. It's just that two of the top 5 programs have had excellent success recently using it. They're not more successful than the field, but each is more successful than just about anyone else.

EV, you make good points, but the fact remains that Miller has not done what it takes to win a natty. When you fail, it's not just bad luck. There is always something you coulda shoulda done to have avoided the problem. Having a better replacement for Bash is a hypothetical example. Bad call on the last play? Don't let your team be in a position where a single blown call loses the game. Etc. etc. Miller is most certainly elite, but he's not above critique.

To be fair Aaron Gordon was a damn good Bash replacement. The only problem was the guy who filled AG's spot at the 3, while a great player himself, wasn't exactly an offensive weapon. Also to be fair Miller did have Jerrett on his roster as another option to Bash and we know how that ended. Outside of Kentucky I don't think there's another team in the nation that could've had a better replacement for a guy like Bash than we did that season though.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Yeah, the Duke-UK strategy isn't infallible. It's just that two of the top 5 programs have had excellent success recently using it. They're not more successful than the field, but each is more successful than just about anyone else.

EV, you make good points, but the fact remains that Miller has not done what it takes to win a natty. When you fail, it's not just bad luck. There is always something you coulda shoulda done to have avoided the problem. Having a better replacement for Bash is a hypothetical example. Bad call on the last play? Don't let your team be in a position where a single blown call loses the game. Etc. etc. Miller is most certainly elite, but he's not above critique.

To be fair Aaron Gordon was a damn good Bash replacement. The only problem was the guy who filled AG's spot at the 3, while a great player himself, wasn't exactly an offensive weapon. Also to be fair Miller did have Jerrett on his roster as another option to Bash and we know how that ended. Outside of Kentucky I don't think there's another team in the nation that could've had a better replacement for a guy like Bash than we did that season though.

Yeah, I don't really get the argument that Miller should have been better prepared to lose Ashley. There are very few teams that could take the loss of a starter and primary contributor and plug in someone just as good.

We rolled AG, dosed Rondae and York heavier and gave Pitts some minutes. How many teams are doing better than that if they lose a major player?

[ChooChooCat]

Yeah, the Duke-UK strategy isn't infallible. It's just that two of the top 5 programs have had excellent success recently using it. They're not more successful than the field, but each is more successful than just about anyone else.

EV, you make good points, but the fact remains that Miller has not done what it takes to win a natty. When you fail, it's not just bad luck. There is always something you coulda shoulda done to have avoided the problem. Having a better replacement for Bash is a hypothetical example. Bad call on the last play? Don't let your team be in a position where a single blown call loses the game. Etc. etc. Miller is most certainly elite, but he's not above critique.

To be fair Aaron Gordon was a damn good Bash replacement. The only problem was the guy who filled AG's spot at the 3, while a great player himself, wasn't exactly an offensive weapon. Also to be fair Miller did have Jerrett on his roster as another option to Bash and we know how that ended. Outside of Kentucky I don't think there's another team in the nation that could've had a better replacement for a guy like Bash than we did that season though.

Yeah, I don't really get the argument that Miller should have been better prepared to lose Ashley. There are very few teams that could take the loss of a starter and primary contributor and plug in someone just as good.

We rolled AG, dosed Rondae and York heavier and gave Pitts some minutes. How many teams are doing better than that if they lose a major player?

Yeah Arizona still had all the tools to make the Final Four and they certainly almost did. Every one brings up Bash, because between him, AG, and Rondae he was the superior offensive player and if he was healthy we possibly would've scored enough points to win that game. Hell we held them to 64 points in 45 minutes, so defense wasn't the issue, regardless of our inability to be able to stop Kaminsky. If I could blame Miller for roster management at all that season it would be having Gabe York and Elliott Pitts as the back up guards on the team. We needed a better offensive wing on the bench and we just didn't have it.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Yeah, the Duke-UK strategy isn't infallible. It's just that two of the top 5 programs have had excellent success recently using it. They're not more successful than the field, but each is more successful than just about anyone else.

EV, you make good points, but the fact remains that Miller has not done what it takes to win a natty. When you fail, it's not just bad luck. There is always something you coulda shoulda done to have avoided the problem. Having a better replacement for Bash is a hypothetical example. Bad call on the last play? Don't let your team be in a position where a single blown call loses the game. Etc. etc. Miller is most certainly elite, but he's not above critique.

To be fair Aaron Gordon was a damn good Bash replacement. The only problem was the guy who filled AG's spot at the 3, while a great player himself, wasn't exactly an offensive weapon. Also to be fair Miller did have Jerrett on his roster as another option to Bash and we know how that ended. Outside of Kentucky I don't think there's another team in the nation that could've had a better replacement for a guy like Bash than we did that season though.

Yeah, I don't really get the argument that Miller should have been better prepared to lose Ashley. There are very few teams that could take the loss of a starter and primary contributor and plug in someone just as good.

We rolled AG, dosed Rondae and York heavier and gave Pitts some minutes. How many teams are doing better than that if they lose a major player?

Yeah Arizona still had all the tools to make the Final Four and they certainly almost did. Every one brings up Bash, because between him, AG, and Rondae he was the superior offensive player and if he was healthy we possibly would've scored enough points to win that game. Hell we held them to 64 points in 45 minutes, so defense wasn't the issue, regardless of our inability to be able to stop Kaminsky. If I could blame Miller for roster management at all that season it would be having Gabe York and Elliott Pitts as the back up guards on the team. We needed a better offensive wing on the bench and we just didn't have it.

If I had a criticism of Miller that year, it would be that he constricted to a 7 man rotation early in games he didn't have to. I get why he did it (no coach can predict injuries) but playing a more open rotation earlier would have let York and Pitts get more time.

It wouldn't change who they were, but might have better prepared them for the expanded roles they took on later. Again, it's hard for me to fault Miller a ton for this. A lot of coaches believe in rotation cohesion, and he played that season in that way, setting a really clearly defined rotation right out of the gate. There's a defined benefit in letting the Yorks, Pittses and Korchecks get out there a little more in OOC too, though.

Bottom line, though, there's just such a thing as bad luck too. We caught bad luck.

[rgdeuce]

Was texting a buddy throughout that game, saying we are going to be kicking ourselves for not taking advantage of the Wisconsin lulls/stretching our leads out. There were a ton of wasted, empty possessions and blown opportunities in that game. First half we should stretched the lead out in the teens, and Wisky had that second half stretch where they didnt score for like 7 or 8 minutes. In a nutshell, we let them stick around when we should have put them away, which spells doom when a guy like Kaminsky gets going and you have no answer for him in the closing minutes.

Throw Bash into that game and I think we beat them by double digits fairly easily. Zeus killed Kaminsky (we messed up by not make a more concerted effort to take advantage). Throw Bash into the mix and Wisky has to guard Zeus with Kaminsky, Bash with Dekker, and then either guard Gordon with the tallest of their three starting guards (unlikely) or match freshman Nigel Hayes (17 mpg) up with him, which would have thrown off the whole dynamic they were working with at the time. Essentially forcing them to play our game. I doubt we lose a game that whole season if Bash doesn't go down, but instead its just another case of the what-ifs for us.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Was texting a buddy throughout that game, saying we are going to be kicking ourselves for not taking advantage of the Wisconsin lulls/stretching our leads out. There were a ton of wasted, empty possessions and blown opportunities in that game. First half we should stretched the lead out in the teens, and Wisky had that second half stretch where they didnt score for like 7 or 8 minutes. In a nutshell, we let them stick around when we should have put them away, which spells doom when a guy like Kaminsky gets going and you have no answer for him in the closing minutes.

Throw Bash into that game and I think we beat them by double digits fairly easily. Zeus killed Kaminsky (we messed up by not make a more concerted effort to take advantage). Throw Bash into the mix and Wisky has to guard Zeus with Kaminsky, Bash with Dekker, and then either guard Gordon with the tallest of their three starting guards (unlikely) or match freshman Nigel Hayes (17 mpg) up with him, which would have thrown off the whole dynamic they were working with at the time. Essentially forcing them to play our game. I doubt we lose a game that whole season if Bash doesn't go down, but instead its just another case of the what-ifs for us.

With Ashley, we have another defender to throw at Kaminsky too. We used Zeus, AG and even had Rondae a few possessions to try to give a different look. We never would have had to reach like that with Ashley because we would have had our 3 bigs.

Post Ashley injury, the offensive lulls were a continuing issue. It was a symptom of having a lot of Rondae, AG and Zeus lineups where none of the 3 was a perimeter threat. Those lineups killed spacing because the D could sag off all three. I completely agree we had the opportunity to break Wisky in the first half and went cold.

[ChooChooCat]

Post Ashley injury, the offensive lulls were a continuing issue. It was a symptom of having a lot of Rondae, AG and Zeus lineups where none of the 3 was a perimeter threat. Those lineups killed spacing because the D could sag off all three. I completely agree we had the opportunity to break Wisky in the first half and went cold.

Gabe York 0/2 from the field with 1 total point in 29 minutes. TJ and Nick were both obviously off as well, but yeah...

[Spaceman Spiff]

Post Ashley injury, the offensive lulls were a continuing issue. It was a symptom of having a lot of Rondae, AG and Zeus lineups where none of the 3 was a perimeter threat. Those lineups killed spacing because the D could sag off all three. I completely agree we had the opportunity to break Wisky in the first half and went cold.

Gabe York 0/2 from the field with 1 total point in 29 minutes. TJ and Nick were both obviously off as well, but yeah...

Yeah, but people have off games. Stronger offensive teams have advantages that let them push through it. We lacked that after Ashley went down.

When the shots fell (at Colorado) we looked great. When they didn't, we didn't have a lot of natural advantages to fall back on and that streakiness is what killed us.

[EVCat]

Was texting a buddy throughout that game, saying we are going to be kicking ourselves for not taking advantage of the Wisconsin lulls/stretching our leads out. There were a ton of wasted, empty possessions and blown opportunities in that game. First half we should stretched the lead out in the teens, and Wisky had that second half stretch where they didnt score for like 7 or 8 minutes. In a nutshell, we let them stick around when we should have put them away, which spells doom when a guy like Kaminsky gets going and you have no answer for him in the closing minutes.

Throw Bash into that game and I think we beat them by double digits fairly easily. Zeus killed Kaminsky (we messed up by not make a more concerted effort to take advantage). Throw Bash into the mix and Wisky has to guard Zeus with Kaminsky, Bash with Dekker, and then either guard Gordon with the tallest of their three starting guards (unlikely) or match freshman Nigel Hayes (17 mpg) up with him, which would have thrown off the whole dynamic they were working with at the time. Essentially forcing them to play our game. I doubt we lose a game that whole season if Bash doesn't go down, but instead its just another case of the what-ifs for us.

In 2015, the exchange at the end of the first half was HUGE. We fell asleep, lost an easy bucket then gave one up, and our halftime lead was cut by 4...

I felt sick

[CalStateTempe]

What is the next date for the other shoe to drop regarding next years roster?

[84Cat]

What is the next date for the other shoe to drop regarding next years roster?

June 12th - NBA Draft Early Entry Entrant Withdrawal Deadline (5:00 p.m. ET)

[Puerco]

You guys have all very eloquently made my point. All of the issues you mentioned... Those were things that only the head coach could have impacted either through better long term recruiting, different rotations during the season to better develop the bench, or by better in-game management. That's my point in a nutshell. I don't grant Miller any excuses (and to be fair, I'm sure he wouldn't want any). He's a great, elite coach and he's come close to the success we all crave, but he hasn't made it. There are things he needs to take away from those failed efforts, to learn from them to improve his chances of success in the future.

Happily, he seems to be showing lots of evidence that he's willing to tweak the system and even to make larger changes if necessary. Like I said before, I wouldn't exchange Sean Miller for anyone just now, Calipari included. I like where we are as a program, and our future is as bright as anyone's, Duke and Kentucky included.

[Beachcat97]

What is the next date for the other shoe to drop regarding next years roster?

June 12th - NBA Draft Early Entry Entrant Withdrawal Deadline (5:00 p.m. ET)

Yes, but the combine is over, and the lotto is tonight. The picture is getting clearer for a lot of these guys, including Rawle. I'd be fairly surprised if we don't know Rawle's decision by the end of May.

[Spaceman Spiff]

You guys have all very eloquently made my point. All of the issues you mentioned... Those were things that only the head coach could have impacted either through better long term recruiting, different rotations during the season to better develop the bench, or by better in-game management. That's my point in a nutshell. I don't grant Miller any excuses (and to be fair, I'm sure he wouldn't want any). He's a great, elite coach and he's come close to the success we all crave, but he hasn't made it. There are things he needs to take away from those failed efforts, to learn from them to improve his chances of success in the future.

Happily, he seems to be showing lots of evidence that he's willing to tweak the system and even to make larger changes if necessary. Like I said before, I wouldn't exchange Sean Miller for anyone just now, Calipari included. I like where we are as a program, and our future is as bright as anyone's, Duke and Kentucky included.

I am 100% sold on Miller as our coach. I've always thought it speaks heavily that my biggest criticisms of Miller are judgment calls where I would reach a different judgment. Like rotations, developing your bench early is one way, building a constant rotation with defined roles is another. Developing the bench might have worked better in 2014, but it's not like Miller just screwed up by going the other way.

Part of it is that Arizona is new to re-establishing its power. We faded at the end of Lute's run, and 13-14 was the first year we cemented that the program is a powerhouse again. Miller has to coach and build in a different way as a hunted vs a hunter.

This year ranks with Miller's best efforts, if not his best ever. 13-14 was great, but having us in the top 5 after the adversity we fought through, winning the Pac regular season and tourney, it was incredible. At the moment Parker went down, you could have convinced me we were a bubble team.

[Beachcat97]

This year ranks with Miller's best efforts, if not his best ever. 13-14 was great, but having us in the top 5 after the adversity we fought through, winning the Pac regular season and tourney, it was incredible. At the moment Parker went down, you could have convinced me we were a bubble team.

That's exactly how I was feeling, Spiff. Ferguson gone, Smith injured and retiring, Trier ineligible, and then PJC is out...it just didn't seem conceivable that this group could end up doing what they did. 2016-17 was one of Miller's best coaching performances at AZ. I really loved this team. It sucked that Trier couldn't get in there until the midpoint of the season, which may've impacted our chemistry, but it worked out. Reg-season co-champs, Pac tourney champs, S-16...that's pretty damn good considering the adversity. I was expecting a "down year" early on, and if that's what a Sean Miller down year looks like, I'll take it every time.

[CalStateTempe]

What is the next date for the other shoe to drop regarding next years roster?

June 12th - NBA Draft Early Entry Entrant Withdrawal Deadline (5:00 p.m. ET)

God damn..:really stringing this out arnt they.

Thabks 84

[ChooChooCat]

What is the next date for the other shoe to drop regarding next years roster?

June 12th - NBA Draft Early Entry Entrant Withdrawal Deadline (5:00 p.m. ET)

God damn..:really stringing this out arnt they.

Thabks 84

That's the NBA's withdrawal date, but the NCAA's is May 24th, so it's not that torturing. We'll know in a week at the latest.

[CalStateTempe]

Gotch, thanks choo.

[84Cat]

What is the next date for the other shoe to drop regarding next years roster?

June 12th - NBA Draft Early Entry Entrant Withdrawal Deadline (5:00 p.m. ET)

God damn..:really stringing this out arnt they.

Thabks 84

That's the NBA's withdrawal date, but the NCAA's is May 24th, so it's not that torturing. We'll know in a week at the latest.

What is the difference, for Int'l players? So to return to NCAA 5/24. Good to know, thanks Choo!

[ChooChooCat]

What is the next date for the other shoe to drop regarding next years roster?

June 12th - NBA Draft Early Entry Entrant Withdrawal Deadline (5:00 p.m. ET)

God damn..:really stringing this out arnt they.

Thabks 84

That's the NBA's withdrawal date, but the NCAA's is May 24th, so it's not that torturing. We'll know in a week at the latest.

What is the difference, for Int'l players? So to return to NCAA 5/24. Good to know, thanks Choo!

Yep the difference is for the International guys primarily. That's the NCAA's call though, not the NBA's. If Rawle wants to return to school he'll have to announce those intentions by the 24th otherwise bye bye no matter what.