2017-2018 Arizona Basketball

RondaeShimmy · Post by **RondaeShimmy** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:18 pm

so arizona/miller have some kind of quarterfinals curse right?

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:19 pm

dcZONAfan wrote:
luteformayor2 wrote:PJC is too small and not good enough to lead this team. Run Trier at Point and make this thing happen.

Alas, SM will of course be too stubborn and we will fail to make it past week 2 again.

I fear we are watching history repeat itself. This is embarrassing.
Parker isn't even close to the problem. Has played great this year

Slow white boy freshman PG Beverly scored 20 points and was 3-5 from 3 pt range. Bet that it his best game of the season.

RondaeShimmy · Post by **RondaeShimmy** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:21 pm

Merkin wrote:
dcZONAfan wrote:
luteformayor2 wrote:PJC is too small and not good enough to lead this team. Run Trier at Point and make this thing happen.

Alas, SM will of course be too stubborn and we will fail to make it past week 2 again.

I fear we are watching history repeat itself. This is embarrassing.
Parker isn't even close to the problem. Has played great this year

Slow white boy freshman PG Beverly scored 20 points and was 3-5 from 3 pt range. Bet that it his best game of the season.

is that mostly because arizona (ristic) can't defend the pick and roll/paint

i honestly don't know, probably both

dcZONAfan · Post by **dcZONAfan** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:24 pm

Merkin wrote:
dcZONAfan wrote:
luteformayor2 wrote:PJC is too small and not good enough to lead this team. Run Trier at Point and make this thing happen.

Alas, SM will of course be too stubborn and we will fail to make it past week 2 again.

I fear we are watching history repeat itself. This is embarrassing.
Parker isn't even close to the problem. Has played great this year

Slow white boy freshman PG Beverly scored 20 points and was 3-5 from 3 pt range. Bet that it his best game of the season.

Great, look at the box score and blame that on Parker. It helps me ignore you.

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:26 pm

Why are people blaming PJC? Dude played fine

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:26 pm

Werent we picked by Kenpom to be the last undefeated team? We didnt even make it to Thanksgiving.

dcZONAfan · Post by **dcZONAfan** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:26 pm

Main Event wrote:Why are people blaming PJC? Dude played fine

They dumb, bro

dcZONAfan · Post by **dcZONAfan** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:28 pm

The overreacting to a bad game always cracks me up. Our defense is terrible, no doubt. Who bets it will stay that way all season, especially once Rawle returns in a couple weeks?

84Cat · Post by **84Cat** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:35 pm

dcZONAfan wrote:The overreacting to a bad game always cracks me up. Our defense is terrible, no doubt. Who bets it will stay that way all season, especially once Rawle returns in a couple weeks?

It's disappointing for sure but it is 1 game. We will learn and get better

Gilbertcat · Post by **Gilbertcat** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:41 pm

In person Parker played great. It's like the ball was slippery. They hit 3s and terrible fts did it in

TatetheGreat · Post by **TatetheGreat** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:58 pm

We are extremely beatable if Trier is not shooting lights out. We've seen guys turn it on in March and carry teams all the way and that's what we have to hope for, barring a complete transformation on team defense or emergence of a frosh not named Ayton.

PHXCATS · Post by **PHXCATS** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:05 pm

The offense is 100 percent fine. The D should come along but it was a massive failure tonight.

No more tv this week!

scumdevils86 · Post by **scumdevils86** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:12 pm

When was the last time we had 3 consecutive games not televised on regular t.v. somewhere?

enfuego · Post by **enfuego** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:40 pm

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:54 pm

PHXCATS wrote:The offense is 100 percent fine. The D should come along but it was a massive failure tonight.

No more tv this week!

The offense namely in the second half was far from 100 percent fine. We ran an entire motion offense with zero motion and zero ball movement. The offense was Trier hero ball or throw the ball into Ayton and let him do something. It was Xavier redux and is not going to cut it. This team has many issues to fix if we want to break through.

PHXCATS · Post by **PHXCATS** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:57 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:
PHXCATS wrote:The offense is 100 percent fine. The D should come along but it was a massive failure tonight.

No more tv this week!
The offense namely in the second half was far from 100 percent fine. We ran an entire motion offense with zero motion and zero ball movement. The offense was Trier hero ball or throw the ball into Ayton and let him do something. It was Xavier redux and is not going to cut it. This team has many issues to fix if we want to break through.

What happened in a few hours? Every one was saying final four.

Offense was fine. Period. Defense was a shitshow

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:57 pm

Our bench scored 6 points and our offense is reliant on 2 guys. It's not perfect.

RondaeShimmy · Post by **RondaeShimmy** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:58 pm

dcZONAfan wrote:The overreacting to a bad game always cracks me up. Our defense is terrible, no doubt. Who bets it will stay that way all season, especially once Rawle returns in a couple weeks?

don't remember rawle being particularly good on defense

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:08 pm

ASUHATER! wrote:Our bench scored 6 points and our offense is reliant on 2 guys. It's not perfect.

This.

The offense we saw tonight is not the offense we displayed in our first 3 games. Ball movement matters. We had little to none of it in the 2nd half of a close game. That's a problem and one that looks all too familiar to our last loss prior to this.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:36 pm

The defense was horrible. The new guys (sans Ayton) got their first taste of legit D1 competition. That game was maddening. We will see what this team is made of tomorrow.

zonagrad · Post by **zonagrad** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:56 pm

Freshmen looked overwhelmed. Lee was adequate going up against seasoned veterans. But Akot, Randolph and Barcello were complete non factors. Defensively the blame goes to everyone. I've never seen so many straight line drives to the basket. We didn't rotate and didn't stay in front of the ball handler.

NC State played an exceptional game and gained a lot of early confidence while we were the exact opposite. Better to have a game like this in November rather than March.

Some thoughts: PJC's stat line looks acceptable. But he wasn't disruptive on the defensive end. His defense was "defensive" or reactive. I don't think this is a correctible problem against other talented point guards who are going to attack him. If a freshman playing in only his third game can have his way and get in the paint against him, that doesn't bode well for tougher competition. Can you imagine PJC guarding Duke's point guard?

Despite Arizona's size advantage, we are not that formidable in the paint. Ristic simply doesn't position himself well defensively. It seems so easy for attacking guards to get into him and create contact. Makes me appreciate the Bennett Davison-type player who was a quick leaper and disrupter. Ayton played terrific. Veteran players are going to challenge him and try to out-physical him. He better get used to the banging.

Trier is a great scorer. But the more he dominates the ball, the more our offense stagnates. His dribbling to create shuts down any movement without the ball and thus reduces offensive rebounding opportunities. I saw a lot of perimeter players standing around waiting for Trier to do something. Trier needs to decide to attack immediately off the dribble or get rid of the ball and create ball movement and motion. When he goes cold we looked like garbage.

And I don't know what the hell happened to Akot, Randolph and Smith. They were not focused and looked lost. We know the talent is there and I suppose they should all get a pass as this was their first game against a veteran lineup. But damn, I expected a lot more from them on the defensive end and even creating second chance points.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:40 am

If I see Miller throw out a lineup of PJC, Barcello, Trier, Pinder, and Ayton in crunch time again at any other point of this season I may lose my damn mind.

PHXCATS · Post by **PHXCATS** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:22 am

ChooChooCat wrote:If I see Miller throw out a lineup of PJC, Barcello, Trier, Pinder, and Ayton in crunch time again at any other point of this season I may lose my damn mind.

Fire Miller?

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:49 am

PHXCATS wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:If I see Miller throw out a lineup of PJC, Barcello, Trier, Pinder, and Ayton in crunch time again at any other point of this season I may lose my damn mind.
Fire Miller?

He's got horses for days on this team. Obviously the defense is an issue, with some of these guys (Ristic) there are physical limitations that prevent them from ever playing good quality packline defense, in other guys it's an effort issue and in others it's just getting used to the packline defense or actually playing defense all together. At this point Miller has 11 guys (once Rawle is back) and he needs to cut that down to at least 9. There's some lineup issues that are beyond obvious I.E. Ristic and Ayton starting along side one another just isn't going to work. I know there's loyalty with Ristic for coming back and yada yada yada, but this is Miller's season to not dick around. He needs to win as tomorrow for this program won't be good enough for probably a few years. Another issue is the wing rotation. Akot and Randolph are just more talented than Dylan Smith, let's stop bullshitting and let those kids play more, play through mistakes, and do what they do well. Both are too good offensively (Akot as a playmaker, Randolph as a shooter) for either to sit on the pine for Smith. To sit either of those guys down in favor of Barcello (I love the kid, but he's not there, and quite frankly should only be playing when PJC is on the bench) and especially Pinder just kills your offense and even arguably your defense, especially against a team that only has one real big on its roster.

I don't know if Miller sacrificed this team to the basketball karma god's on purpose yesterday or not, but lord knows his rotations were frustrating and he did nothing and I mean NOTHING to combat what NC State was doing at any point. He stuck with the do what we do the entire game and it wasn't good enough, especially defensively and certainly in actual ball movement offensively. What we saw was last night was Xavier redux, from the awful offense that we ended the game with right down to the awful defense with no Kadeem Allen to at least keep the other team honest.

Well we're only at game 5, lots of room to grow and improve and make sure no aspect of last night happens, but that crunch time lineup needs to never happen again. That was an embarrassment.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:19 am

Per Choo's post about cutting the rotation.

I think the message is simple. Want to play when we cut? Earn it on D. Defense is the condition to make the rotation.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:25 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Per Choo's post about cutting the rotation.

I think the message is simple. Want to play when we cut? Earn it on D. Defense is the condition to make the rotation.

Yes, but also play the damn talent, and play the lineups that will play the best together on both ends on the court I.E. not Ayton and Ristic out there together.

Plain and simple if Arizona wants to win when it matters this needs to be the lineup with the most playing time overall and together:

PJC
Trier
Rawle
Akot
Ayton

We love you Dusan, but god dammit you have a role you're best suited to play and it's not alongside Ayton, but backing him up.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:34 am

ChooChooCat wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:Per Choo's post about cutting the rotation.

I think the message is simple. Want to play when we cut? Earn it on D. Defense is the condition to make the rotation.
Yes, but also play the damn talent, and play the lineups that will play the best together on both ends on the court I.E. not Ayton and Ristic out there together.

Plain and simple if Arizona wants to win when it matters this needs to be the lineup with the most playing time overall and together:

PJC
Trier
Rawle
Akot
Ayton

We love you Dusan, but god dammit you have a role you're best suited to play and it's not alongside Ayton, but backing him up.

I don't necessarily mind making the younger players earn it by learning D. You want to accelerate a kid's learning curve, make it clear the only thing preventing him from getting Dusan or Smith's minutes is his learning defensive rotations.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:35 am

So Ristic as a scoring Sr would get 6 minutes a game. That won't happen

CatFanOneMil · Post by **CatFanOneMil** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:45 am

One thing I've noticed about Millers rotation that actually seems quite counter-intuitive to what he preaches and that is every time a player fouls he pulls them...

Aren't some amount of fouls indicative of learning the flow of the defense in relation to the refs?

He never seems to pull them on offensive fouls...just a foul and you're going to the bench seems to be the general rule...

But this rule (if it is true) is an automatic mental defense prohibition, no player who wants minutes is going to foul and that means shying away from contact or blocks or drives to the basket...

THAT IS WHAT i SAW WITH THE NEW KIDS.

The old guys who do that are just slow.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:56 am

azcat49 wrote:So Ristic as a scoring Sr would get 6 minutes a game. That won't happen

What player under Sean Miller has ever averaged 34mpg?

You can play Ristic and Ayton together in certain spurts, but I would never start off the game or a half with them on the court together. Give Ristic 15mpg or in that region, that's more than enough.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:56 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:Per Choo's post about cutting the rotation.

I think the message is simple. Want to play when we cut? Earn it on D. Defense is the condition to make the rotation.
Yes, but also play the damn talent, and play the lineups that will play the best together on both ends on the court I.E. not Ayton and Ristic out there together.

Plain and simple if Arizona wants to win when it matters this needs to be the lineup with the most playing time overall and together:

PJC
Trier
Rawle
Akot
Ayton

We love you Dusan, but god dammit you have a role you're best suited to play and it's not alongside Ayton, but backing him up.
I don't necessarily mind making the younger players earn it by learning D. You want to accelerate a kid's learning curve, make it clear the only thing preventing him from getting Dusan or Smith's minutes is his learning defensive rotations.

I'm of the opinion you accelerate a kid's learning curve by letting him play and work through mistakes personally.

DiehardDave37 · Post by **DiehardDave37** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:09 am

So who does he start tonight? The older guys did OK considering. The new guys (freshmen and Smith) did not except for Ayton playing in front of friends and family. What does Trier do? He is watching his team lose, puts them on his back in the second half and is accused of "Hero Ball". Ayton was the only new guy to make money in our RAP game. None of the returnees who played lost money. Did the new guys give the coaches false hope that they were catching on to the process?

Dosia · Post by **Dosia** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:08 am

Ristic should only get 5mpg while Ayton is catching his breath.

KaibabKat · Post by **KaibabKat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:22 am

PER's thru 4 games for Arizona players:
36.6 Allonzo Trier
35.3 Deandre Ayton
31.8 Dusan Ristic
18.4 Parker Jackson-Cartwright
17.5 Keanu Pinder
15.5 Alex Barcello
15.1 Tyler Trillo
14.9 Jake DesJardins
13.1 Ira Lee
9.8 Emmanuel Akot
7.6 Dylan Smith
5.1 Brandon Randolph
-18.3 Talbot Denny

RondaeShimmy · Post by **RondaeShimmy** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:32 am

a ball handler, three wings and a post man is how miller teams should be all the time, time to get with the times

long athletic wings thrive in this system

Frybry02 · Post by **Frybry02** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:36 am

RondaeShimmy wrote:a ball handler, three wings and a post man is how miller teams should be all the time, time to get with the times

long athletic wings thrive in this system

I'm sure Miller would love to play long and athletic but no one stepped last night when they had the opportunity.

RondaeShimmy · Post by **RondaeShimmy** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:45 am

Frybry02 wrote:
RondaeShimmy wrote:a ball handler, three wings and a post man is how miller teams should be all the time, time to get with the times

long athletic wings thrive in this system
I'm sure Miller would love to play long and athletic but no one stepped last night when they had the opportunity.

what I said went beyond last night

im saying that miller should adjust his recruiting strategy to tailor to the systems needs. that means stop trying to get two seven footers playing the post together. maybe even stop loading up the roster with five stars instead of going after 3-4 guys, because the packline is hard to master with this amount of roster turnover

2-3 ball handlers on the roster, 2 bigs who are defense oriented and the rest a bunch of 6'5-6-8 long athletes that can play different spots

pjc
trier
alkins
akot
ayton

is the perfect blueprint for this, playing to the teams strengths

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:47 am

RondaeShimmy wrote:a ball handler, three wings and a post man is how miller teams should be all the time, time to get with the times

long athletic wings thrive in this system

PJC
RA
AT
EA/BR
DA

Or

AT
RA
EA
BR
DA

Hard to really know what we have until Rawle is back. He’s going to be getting at least 25mpg by March.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:48 am

Frybry02 wrote:
RondaeShimmy wrote:a ball handler, three wings and a post man is how miller teams should be all the time, time to get with the times

long athletic wings thrive in this system
I'm sure Miller would love to play long and athletic but no one stepped last night when they had the opportunity.

Or weren't given the opportunity at all for whatever reason (Akot).

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:51 am

KaibabKat wrote:PER's thru 4 games for Arizona players:
36.6 Allonzo Trier
35.3 Deandre Ayton
31.8 Dusan Ristic
18.4 Parker Jackson-Cartwright
17.5 Keanu Pinder
15.5 Alex Barcello
15.1 Tyler Trillo
14.9 Jake DesJardins
13.1 Ira Lee
9.8 Emmanuel Akot
7.6 Dylan Smith
5.1 Brandon Randolph
-18.3 Talbot Denny

A 7 footer who finishes well and has had the luxury of sharing the floor with two of the top 5-10 players in the country against weaker competition has a high PER?

Also, defense

RondaeShimmy · Post by **RondaeShimmy** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:57 am

Beachcat97 wrote:
RondaeShimmy wrote:a ball handler, three wings and a post man is how miller teams should be all the time, time to get with the times

long athletic wings thrive in this system
PJC
RA
AT
EA/BR
DA

Or

AT
RA
EA
BR
DA

Hard to really know what we have until Rawle is back. He’s going to be getting at least 25mpg by March.

as long as we dont have the twin towers playing post together, we should be good

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:02 am

This has probably been discussed ad nauseum in other threads, but we could help ourselves by adding a zone defense. Maybe that’s how you get Ristic and Ayton on the floor together.

HiCat · Post by **HiCat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:08 am

ChooChooCat wrote:
ASUHATER! wrote:Our bench scored 6 points and our offense is reliant on 2 guys. It's not perfect.
This.

The offense we saw tonight is not the offense we displayed in our first 3 games. Ball movement matters. We had little to none of it in the 2nd half of a close game. That's a problem and one that looks all too familiar to our last loss prior to this.

Cats: 11% 3 pts 68% ft's 46% fg

https://www.foxsports.com/college-baske ... ?id=100333" target="_blank

Frybry02 · Post by **Frybry02** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:39 am

RondaeShimmy wrote:
Frybry02 wrote:
RondaeShimmy wrote:a ball handler, three wings and a post man is how miller teams should be all the time, time to get with the times

long athletic wings thrive in this system
I'm sure Miller would love to play long and athletic but no one stepped last night when they had the opportunity.
what I said went beyond last night

im saying that miller should adjust his recruiting strategy to tailor to the systems needs. that means stop trying to get two seven footers playing the post together. maybe even stop loading up the roster with five stars instead of going after 3-4 guys, because the packline is hard to master with this amount of roster turnover

2-3 ball handlers on the roster, 2 bigs who are defense oriented and the rest a bunch of 6'5-6-8 long athletes that can play different spots

pjc
trier
alkins
akot
ayton

is the perfect blueprint for this, playing to the teams strengths

I am not a Ristic fan. His limitations drive me absolutely nuts. At the same time, someone on this team needs to beat him out. Until then, Miller seems like a coach that will always default to size. Your lineup is something I would love to see or Lee at 4.

These team is deadly in transition. I hope the players relize it starts with defense.

Wildcats defensive rankings according to kenpom this year and the past 5.

32
29
29
3
1
32

UAEebs86 · Post by **UAEebs86** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:44 am

HiCat wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
ASUHATER! wrote:Our bench scored 6 points and our offense is reliant on 2 guys. It's not perfect.
This.

The offense we saw tonight is not the offense we displayed in our first 3 games. Ball movement matters. We had little to none of it in the 2nd half of a close game. That's a problem and one that looks all too familiar to our last loss prior to this.

Cats: 11% 3 pts 68% ft's 46% fg

https://www.foxsports.com/college-baske ... ?id=100333" target="_blank

Worst 3-pt percentage in the Sean Miller era.

PieceOfMeat · Post by **PieceOfMeat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:51 am

ChooChooCat wrote: I don't know if Miller sacrificed this team to the basketball karma god's on purpose yesterday or not, but lord knows his rotations were frustrating and he did nothing and I mean NOTHING to combat what NC State was doing at any point. He stuck with the do what we do the entire game and it wasn't good enough, especially defensively and certainly in actual ball movement offensively. What we saw was last night was Xavier redux, from the awful offense that we ended the game with right down to the awful defense with no Kadeem Allen to at least keep the other team honest.

It'll be good enough to win a bunch of games this year and reach the elite 8. If we can get beyond that point depends on how well the young guys come along and whether we get someone who can (and will) torch teams from deep when we need it.

I'm less concerned with defense and more concerned with out offense because it was just so horribly stagnant and hey-let's-watch-Trier-just-like-last-year.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:04 pm

Final Four has to be this year with recruits bailing, and the ones that do sign only sign financial aid papers, not a NLI.

SunnyAZ · Post by **SunnyAZ** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:05 pm

Dosia wrote:Ristic should only get 5mpg while Ayton is catching his breath.

at least give him teh ball when he is in too, Dusan only had 5 shots last night and made 4 of them.

Most teams won't have a dude to guard Dusan if he is playing with Ayton, so get him the ball or he is a waste

SunnyAZ · Post by **SunnyAZ** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:18 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:
RondaeShimmy wrote:a ball handler, three wings and a post man is how miller teams should be all the time, time to get with the times

long athletic wings thrive in this system
PJC
RA
AT
EA/BR
DA

Or

AT
RA
EA
BR
DA

Hard to really know what we have until Rawle is back. He’s going to be getting at least 25mpg by March.

I would give Pinder token starter minutes. Still have him play about 12 MPG but is the starter.

PJC
Trier
Rawle
Pinder
Ayton

and run the 2nd unit through Dusan

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:45 pm

Why Pinder over Akot?

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