Rich Rodriguez vs Todd Graham... By The Numbers

[Harvey Specter]

Serious question for the Rodriguez supporters... Did Todd Graham deserve to get fired?

Graham: Career P12 Record: 31-24 (0.564)
Overall Record: 46-31 (0.600) ...with an OOC schedule that included 7 BCS Conf teams or 1-2 EVERY YEAR
Upper 1/2 Division FInishes: 4
Conference Winning Records: 4
T-Cup Record: 4-2 (0.667)
Bowl Record: 2-2

Rodriguez: Career P12 Record: 24-31 (0.436)
Overall Record: 43-34 (0.558) ...with an OOC schedule that included ONE BCS Conf teams IN ALL 6 YEARS
Upper 1/2 Division FInishes: 2
Conference Winning Records: 2
T-Cup record: 2-4
Bowl Record: 2-2

^^^ Graham has been clearly superior by every objective measure.

If anyone wishes to play the "Graham inherited a much better situation" card, please do not post in this thread because that is unadulterated bullshit.

For me, the answer to that question is an absolute HELL NO! I cannot stand the guy, but if Rich Rodriguez had similar success, I would be ecstatic and support giving an extension. RR is undoubtedly more charismatic, but at least as full of shit... for those who think this should be a popularity contest.

Apparently ASU is not worried about "who they will get to replace him"? When you reward marginal performance, you should expect it to continue. Graham just turned in a 6 year record that many here would suggest is "above our ceiling as a program" and they just fired his ass for it.

Let's give RR his ~$3MM bonus in January and thank him for gracing us with his presence... because clearly ASU's program is on a different level by virtue of their recent performance AND expectations.

PS - Sumlin recruited AZ damn well from College Station. Imagine how he might do in Tempe.

[catgrad97]

What people don't want to ever say in response to Harvey's dead-on factual analysis is this, which is no less true: We are Arizona football, with lower standards for success than our hated rival ASU.

[PHXCATS]

What people don't want to ever say in response to Harvey's dead-on factual analysis is this, which is no less true: We are Arizona football, with lower standards for success than our hated rival ASU.

Or more fiscally responsible. Or we see next year UA will be favored to win the South. Or we were not unethical. Or you don't fire someone for far exceeding expectations.

Say can t say any if those four are true for them.

[scumdevils86]

going 7-5 is never, ever, ever FAR EXCEEDING expectations. that is why the culture of our program is dog shit. people think that winning 7 games is awesome. it isn't. rewarding mediocrity.

[CatMG]

Regarding expectations, I don't see "being expected to completely suck but exceeded expectations to end up mediocre" as a ringing endorsement for a head coach. ESPECIALLY considering the fact that the team was mediocre and not good was completely due to the head coach (e.g. starting Dawkins over Tate, playing not to lose on multiple occasions).

[ASUHATER!]

Regarding expectations, I don't see "being expected to completely suck but exceeded expectations to end up mediocre" a ringing endorsement for a head coach. ESPECIALLY considering the fact that the team was mediocre and not good was completely due to the head coach (e.g. starting Dawkins over Tate, playing not to lose on multiple occasions).

Yet that seems to be perfectly fine with a large portion of our fanbase. Being thoroughly mediocre is all they ever wish and hope for.

[PHXCATS]

Regarding expectations, I don't see "being expected to completely suck but exceeded expectations to end up mediocre" a ringing endorsement for a head coach. ESPECIALLY considering the fact that the team was mediocre and not good was completely due to the head coach (e.g. starting Dawkins over Tate, playing not to lose on multiple occasions).

Tons of asu fans have said this and I agree. asu was picked 5th in the South and is 2nd. U.S. was picked dead last and was likely an injury away and maybe (not blaming refs just pointing out something) a blown call away from 8-4 and 2nd in the South. To me that is far exceeding but whatever you think works for you and that's fine

[PHXCATS]

And I will say this. The best chance to get to 9-3 next year all things considered is with RR next year as head coach.

[ASUHATER!]

And I will say this. The best chance to get to 9-3 next year all things considered is with RR next year as head coach.

No

[3rdand25]

I watched some of Ray Anderson's press conference and have to agree w him on one thing. The PAC 12 south is/has been very weak over the last 4 or 5 years.

This has been a window of opportunity which is not always open. AZ still loses to and struggles with the byus of the world, so getting 2nd or 3rd in the South to a team that lost to sdsu etc is not a great achievement.

[catgrad97]

What people don't want to ever say in response to Harvey's dead-on factual analysis is this, which is no less true: We are Arizona football, with lower standards for success than our hated rival ASU.

Or more fiscally responsible. Or we see next year UA will be favored to win the South. Or we were not unethical. Or you don't fire someone for far exceeding expectations.

Say can t say any if those four are true for them.

None of your conjectures are supported by a single fact. In this thread or anywhere else. I stand by my conclusion. You really need to re-think yours.

[PHXCATS]

What people don't want to ever say in response to Harvey's dead-on factual analysis is this, which is no less true: We are Arizona football, with lower standards for success than our hated rival ASU.

Or more fiscally responsible. Or we see next year UA will be favored to win the South. Or we were not unethical. Or you don't fire someone for far exceeding expectations.

Say can t say any if those four are true for them.

None of your conjectures are supported by a single fact. In this thread or anywhere else. I stand by my conclusion. You really need to re-think yours.

Please tell me how asu as is can afford the buy outs and renovations and salaries for new coaches.

Please tell me how it is ethical to negotiate with Sumlin when Sumlin is employed by A&M and you haven't fired Graham. You honestly think there was not negotiations until this morning.

There have been plenty of spots that say UA will be a South favorite next year. If I show them to you will you apologize?

And you are a hater and blind if you don't think 7 and 5 was better than expectations. Vegas has 5.5 wins as over under. Fact. Media had us dead last in the pac12. Fact. May here said less than 3 wins. Fact.

Apologize please and thank you.

[PHXCATS]

And I will say this. The best chance to get to 9-3 next year all things considered is with RR next year as head coach.

No

Name one coach who UA can actually get with our awful fan base, lack of history, faculties and tradition that would be more likely than RR to get to 9-3 in 2018.

[ASUHATER!]

And I will say this. The best chance to get to 9-3 next year all things considered is with RR next year as head coach.

No

Name one coach who UA can actually get with our awful fan base, lack of history, faculties and tradition that would be more likely than RR to get to 9-3 in 2018.

Almost any out there. RR has proven over and over and over and over and over again he isn't cut out for this job and simply can't do it. After what you've witnessed the last 4 games, assuming he'll take us to 9-3 next year should be enough to have you institutionalized.

[PHXCATS]

And I will say this. The best chance to get to 9-3 next year all things considered is with RR next year as head coach.

No

Name one coach who UA can actually get with our awful fan base, lack of history, faculties and tradition that would be more likely than RR to get to 9-3 in 2018.

Almost any out there. RR has proven over and over and over and over and over again he isn't cut out for this job and simply can't do it. After what you've witnessed the last 4 games, assuming he'll take us to 9-3 next year should be enough to have you institutionalized.

So you can't make one. Figures. You talk and talk but have nothing to actually say.

[prh]

Please for god sakes learn how multi quote

[ASUHATER!]

And I will say this. The best chance to get to 9-3 next year all things considered is with RR next year as head coach.

No

Name one coach who UA can actually get with our awful fan base, lack of history, faculties and tradition that would be more likely than RR to get to 9-3 in 2018.

Almost any out there. RR has proven over and over and over and over and over again he isn't cut out for this job and simply can't do it. After what you've witnessed the last 4 games, assuming he'll take us to 9-3 next year should be enough to have you institutionalized.

So you can't make one. Figures. You talk and talk but have nothing to actually say.

The irony here is so delicious.

[PHXCATS]

Please name one coach

[ASUHATER!]

Please name one coach

Your question doesn't deserve a serious response since you're starting from a preposterous position. The position that we're winning the south and 9 games next year with RR guaranteed. Until you actually act seriously, you don't deserve a response. So rethink your position, take some time off, and come back with a serious question okie dokie?

[whatisee]

I liked the stat that said we have 4 winning records in the PAC12 in the past 17 years and RR has 2 of them

[PHXCATS]

Here you go. After you read it please name one.

UA will be favored in every game next year based on the schedule and current year as things stand now (injuries will play time obviously but as of today) except for USC and Oregon and those are at home. Maybe WSU.

UA better than UCLA, Utah, Colorado, Utah, asu, Oregon State, Cal, BYU, Houston and Southern Utah as things stand now.

So 9-3 is achievable. Others who are paid for their opinions agree.

So please name one coach

[whatisee]

and Sumlin was fired by A&M

[ASUHATER!]

I liked the stat that said we have 4 winning records in the PAC12 in the past 17 years and RR has 2 of them

Well about 10 of those years were some of the worst seasons in school history sooo

[PHXCATS]

So all these big schools are in the mix. Who Hater is gonna get us to 9 wins that UA can get and isn't on this list?

[3goggles]

So all these big schools are in the mix. Who Hater is gonna get us to 9 wins that UA can get and isn't on this list?

Taggart to FSU?

[ASUHATER!]

So all these big schools are in the mix. Who Hater is gonna get us to 9 wins that UA can get and isn't on this list?

Please list your proof, and show your math, as to why you can see the future and know that RR will win 9 games next year here.

[PHXCATS]

So all these big schools are in the mix. Who Hater is gonna get us to 9 wins that UA can get and isn't on this list?

Taggart to FSU?

Did well in Florida before.

Note this list does not include Oregon.

Not the year to compete for coaches.

Still waiting on Hater. I bet he Ps out though and doesn't give a name.

[Merkin]

So all these big schools are in the mix. Who Hater is gonna get us to 9 wins that UA can get and isn't on this list?

Jeff Tedford got Fresno State to 9 wins.

Only losses to Bama, Udub and UNLV.

Not saying Tedford is the man for Arizona, but he put a heckuva lot more QBs and RBs into the NFL than Arizona did when he was at Cal.

If you are a pro-style QB, you are not going to want to play for RichRod. If you value your health, you probably don't want to play for RichRod.

[PHXCATS]

So all these big schools are in the mix. Who Hater is gonna get us to 9 wins that UA can get and isn't on this list?

Please list your proof, and show your math, as to why you can see the future and know that RR will win 9 games next year here.

I already did give the math and basis for a 9 win expectation or fire RR next year. Will be favored in at least 9 games as is right now. Name a coach

[PHXCATS]

So all these big schools are in the mix. Who Hater is gonna get us to 9 wins that UA can get and isn't on this list?

Jeff Tedford got Fresno State to 9 wins.

Only losses to Bama, Udub and UNLV.

Not saying Tedford is the man for Arizona, but he put a heckuva lot more QBs and RBs into the NFL than Arizona did when he was at Cal.

If you are a pro-style QB, you are not going to want to play for RichRod. If you value your health, you probably don't want to play for RichRod.

Don't know if it will work now in the PAC12 but that is an interesting name. Thanks for providing one unlike Hater.

That said next year with the current roster I see RR having a better chance than Tedford to get to 9 in 2018. Better long term play than short term and Tedford is fairly old....

[scumdevils86]

I would very much like to see where the 9 wins are coming from next year when we lose our entire o line and 2 of our top 3 running backs and deal with a injury prone and banged up Tate.

Machina is getting to hedge his bet here and play both sides by saying RRod should be fired if he doesn't get 9 wins next year. Then he thinks he'll look like he supported firing him all along.

We all know 9 wins is extraordinarily unlikely.

[PHXCATS]

Still waiting on a name.

Also for the GUY that follows me around everywhere. PJ Fleck

[PHXCATS]

Still waiting Hater or are you Ping out

[Harvey Specter]

I liked the stat that said we have 4 winning records in the PAC12 in the past 17 years and RR has 2 of them

Mike Stoops has the other 2... Larry Smith had 5 straight, and Dick Tommy 7 overall.

[PieceOfMeat]

I already did give the math and basis for a 9 win expectation or fire RR next year. Will be favored in at least 9 games as is right now. Name a coach

Not to get too involved here, but, you do realize that it isn't "math" to poitn out that you believe we will be favored in those games. It's a prediction you're making based on where you currently see the teams' standing this year. Which is slightly silly given the fact that teams will lose a bunch of players, gain other players, etc. before next year.

But feel free to carry on with this assertion of yours as everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Now. as for this:

Still waiting Hater or are you Ping out

machina. you need to stop.

nobody wants to see multiple posts from you in a row trying to call out another poster.

we get it, you don't like him. put him on ignore and move on.

There is no reason for you to compulsively post again and again trying to call him out. If you feel he is truly "Ping out" (btw, the word pussy can be typed here) then move on with your posting with the knowledge that you're the bigger man. However, all your repetitive posts trying to call him out simply make you look like a petulant child.

[Harvey Specter]

and Sumlin was fired by A&M

Kevin Sumlin went 51-26 at aTm, 25-23 in the SEC, and 3-2 in bowl games - making one every year.

Rich Rodriguez went 15-22 overall, 6-18 in the Big 10 at a time when it was tOSU, occasionally Wiscy, and a bunch or marginal teams. He made 1 bowl game and lost. AT MiCHIGAN.

Way to put Sumlin in his place, though. We won’t settle for damaged goods!

[PHXCATS]

I don't think UA can get Sumlin but if you could you hire him you hit him right this second

[azcat49]

If Rr started Dawkins all year we wouldn't be having this conversation as it would be about who is or should be our next coach.

That in itself is enough evidence but it's a tough spot for our program. New blood doesn't hurt but it might cost and we are in the project phase of refitting the stadium.

Even without a change and it might cost. Attendance is in the toilet and while we should get a bump next year the loss to ASSU will cost some revenue.

[Rick Kane]

To answer the original question, I think ASU was really dumb to fire Todd Graham unless they get Kevin Sumlin. Even then, I think Sumlin would be a marginal hire as if you can not win big at Texas A&M with all the advantages they have, tough to see how that person wins at ASU.

Especially hearing they want to keep both coordinators who Graham hired

Just seems stupid and Michael Crow somehow thinks he has some sort of sleeping giant which he doesn't. ASU like U of A will always be behind UCLA and USC for recruiting in the PAC 12 South. That will always make it a difficult job. ASU is also a bit lost in the Valley with the Cardinals being much more popular nowadays. In the 70's and 80's ASU football was big, not so much anymore.

Like U of A, ASU has a pretty big losing record against UCLA and USC. Unless you hire Nick Saban, that is never changing

[Rick Kane]

Here is a great article on it

https://www.sbnation.com/college-footba ... ches-fired" target="_blank

Call it Dick Tomey territory

ASU should know what they are. They don’t and chances are they will regret firing Todd Graham. Like I still regret firing us firing Dick Tomey

[Merkin]

I think even Tomey knew it was time to go. He really didn't like recruiting and wanted to rest a bit on his laurels, and have players recruit Arizona.

Then with no depth, he stopped tackling drills in practice to save the players from injuries.

Then came the Pigskin Classic. UA tacklers thought they could put a shoulder into the PSU ball carriers and they would go down. And guess what? They didn't.

That was the beginning of the end.

Tomey also had this loyalty to seniors, to play them even if he had underclassmen who was better.

[Harvey Specter]

What people don't want to ever say in response to Harvey's dead-on factual analysis is this, which is no less true: We are Arizona football, with lower standards for success than our hated rival ASU.

Or more fiscally responsible. Or we see next year UA will be favored to win the South. Or we were not unethical. Or you don't fire someone for far exceeding expectations.

Say can t say any if those four are true for them.

That is true... but you also should make decisions based an assessment on the entire body of work... otherwise you incent coaches to have such a shitty year that the bar is lowered for retention (and in actuality I think that is exactly what happened here).

[Spaceman Spiff]

What people don't want to ever say in response to Harvey's dead-on factual analysis is this, which is no less true: We are Arizona football, with lower standards for success than our hated rival ASU.

Or more fiscally responsible. Or we see next year UA will be favored to win the South. Or we were not unethical. Or you don't fire someone for far exceeding expectations.

Say can t say any if those four are true for them.

That is true... but you also should make decisions based an assessment on the entire body of work... otherwise you incent coaches to have such a shitty year that the bar is lowered for retention (and in actuality I think that is exactly what happened here).

In other words, fire RR retroactively for last year.

The answer is simple. Graham's team went in the wrong direction this year. RichRod's went in the right direction. That's why one gets fired and one doesn't.

This thread is reminiscent of R Kelly. If I could turn back the hands of time...with a side order of when a Harvey's fed up.

[Harvey Specter]

What people don't want to ever say in response to Harvey's dead-on factual analysis is this, which is no less true: We are Arizona football, with lower standards for success than our hated rival ASU.

Or more fiscally responsible. Or we see next year UA will be favored to win the South. Or we were not unethical. Or you don't fire someone for far exceeding expectations.

Say can t say any if those four are true for them.

That is true... but you also should make decisions based an assessment on the entire body of work... otherwise you incent coaches to have such a shitty year that the bar is lowered for retention (and in actuality I think that is exactly what happened here).

In other words, fire RR retroactively for last year.

The answer is simple. Graham's team went in the wrong direction this year. RichRod's went in the right direction. That's why one gets fired and one doesn't.

This thread is reminiscent of R Kelly. If I could turn back the hands of time...with a side order of when a Harvey's fed up.

If you are going to be condescending, then it usually helps to be right.

So we moved in the RIGHT direction, but ASU moved in the WRONG one? This season?

In what F***ing planet that you have visited, Spaceman, is that considered coherent logic?

Both teams shit the bed last year and were picked to finish in the bottom of the division. One team did better than the other by every measure (with the exception of overall record, which was a push, but they had a much tougher schedule).

And that team went in the 'Wrong direction", while we went in the "right one".

You can talk about my side of fed up all you want. Easy on the Kool-Aid, Spiff. At least until your tolerance builds up.

And yes, RR deserved to be fired after last season. 4-14 P12 record over 2 seasons years 4-5 into his tenure. Has any other coach ever done that and survived, that deep into their tenure?

I'll be waiting... this ought to be good.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Or more fiscally responsible. Or we see next year UA will be favored to win the South. Or we were not unethical. Or you don't fire someone for far exceeding expectations.

Say can t say any if those four are true for them.

That is true... but you also should make decisions based an assessment on the entire body of work... otherwise you incent coaches to have such a shitty year that the bar is lowered for retention (and in actuality I think that is exactly what happened here).

In other words, fire RR retroactively for last year.

The answer is simple. Graham's team went in the wrong direction this year. RichRod's went in the right direction. That's why one gets fired and one doesn't.

This thread is reminiscent of R Kelly. If I could turn back the hands of time...with a side order of when a Harvey's fed up.

If you are going to be condescending, then it usually helps to be right.

So we moved in the RIGHT direction, but ASU moved in the WRONG one? This season?

In what F***ing planet that you have visited, Spaceman, is that considered coherent logic?

Both teams shit the bed last year and were picked to finish in the bottom of the division. One team did better than the other by every measure (with the exception of overall record, which was a push, but they had a much tougher schedule).

And that team went in the 'Wrong direction", while we went in the "right one".

You can talk about my side of fed up all you want. Easy on the Kool-Aid, Spiff. At least until your tolerance builds up.

And yes, RR deserved to be fired after last season. 4-14 P12 record over 2 seasons years 4-5 into his tenure. Has any other coach ever done that and survived, that deep into their tenure?

I'll be waiting... this ought to be good.

When you enter a season supposed to be bad and perform poorly, that is the wrong direction for the program.

We were supposed to be bad and performed better than expected. That is the right direction for the program. It comes with a side order of not being happy about being supposed to be bad, but it is still the right direction.

Comparison point, if we fired RR and his replacement produced the season we just had, we would say the replacement moved us in the right direction.

We're not at the point of throwing a fiesta, but I wish we could recognize the storm is over now (at least for now).

[PHXCATS]

asu went 5-7 last year and 2-7 in the conference in 2016 and went 7-5 this year and 6-3 in conference. asu was picked 5th in the south by the experts and media. So not sure what you are saying about this Spiff. Either way dont care, this Edwards stuff is pure gold.