let's talk '18

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:03 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
az91 wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... -cardinals
Does Bowen transfer or go pro? Wasn't he considering Oregon at some point in time?
If he isn't eligible at Louisville, I can't believe another school would think they can address the issue otherwise.

As Kurupt once stated, "you can't make a pro a amateur/housewife." That is a paraphrase, but the incident that imperiled Bowen's eligibility is not one that a transfer to any NCAA school will change.

He's going to be C-Walking his way to the G League it sounds like.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:05 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:As Kurupt once stated, "you can't make a pro a amateur/housewife." That is a paraphrase

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:22 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
az91 wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... -cardinals
Does Bowen transfer or go pro? Wasn't he considering Oregon at some point in time?
If he isn't eligible at Louisville, I can't believe another school would think they can address the issue otherwise.

As Kurupt once stated, "you can't make a pro a amateur/housewife." That is a paraphrase, but the incident that imperiled Bowen's eligibility is not one that a transfer to any NCAA school will change.
He's going to be C-Walking his way to the G League it sounds like.

If I could give points for knowing Kurupt references, I would. You're correct, if Bowen's going to come through with Snoop and crush the buildings in any city, it will be a city overseas or a city with a G league team. There are plenty of organizations that won't care if Pitino gave him 150k.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:59 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
az91 wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... -cardinals
Does Bowen transfer or go pro? Wasn't he considering Oregon at some point in time?
If he isn't eligible at Louisville, I can't believe another school would think they can address the issue otherwise.

As Kurupt once stated, "you can't make a pro a amateur/housewife." That is a paraphrase, but the incident that imperiled Bowen's eligibility is not one that a transfer to any NCAA school will change.
He's going to be C-Walking his way to the G League it sounds like.
If I could give points for knowing Kurupt references, I would. You're correct, if Bowen's going to come through with Snoop and crush the buildings in any city, it will be a city overseas or a city with a G league team. There are plenty of organizations that won't care if Pitino gave him 150k.

I just hope for the kid's sake that whatever city overseas or G league city he ends up in he can still freak it if he wants to and have all the girls pause. Maybe he can meet a nice girl and play house with her. In the end for our sake I'm just beyond glad we got Zo back and he didn't have to ride with us.

dmjcat · Post by **dmjcat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:55 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
dmjcat wrote:
ASUHATER! wrote:How in the world would you assume that is self banning for one year would absolve us from any further punishment from the NCAA? You're wildly assuming that is self imposing would magically cure everything.

Win and Vacate is the motto this year. Just win.
So what if the NCAA whacks us for two years?? All the more reason to self police...............if we wait for the NCAA to act in 2019 (hell they may not get around to acting until 2020 in which case we are really, really screwed) and THEN they whack us for two years our recruiting will be SCREWED for 18, 19 , and 20. By that time Bobby Hurley will be kicking our ass.

Sorry, there is no logical argument for continuing to drag this out further. The faster we get this behind us the better.

And remember.........win and vacate might look like last year. There is no guarantee that we will get past the Elite Eight (or Sweet 16 for that matter). Another Xavier might easily happen.
I don't get this argument. We will be negative recruited until a final NCAA judgment comes down. Self-imposing does not speed up that process, as the NCAA does not accept self-imposed sanctions as the end. So we gain nothing.

Plus, saying we should self-impose a tourney ban essentially rests on very little info. Why is that more appropriate than scholarship restrictions or making Miller sit the first 4-5 games of next year? Beyond the FBI complaint, we don't know what exists, if anything. The FBI complaint facts don't establish we have an eligibility issue this year.

Self-imposing a tourney ban does nothing to help us, is not necessarily appropriate but it is a good knee jerk reaction.

Better read what I originally stated again. If (IIIIIFFFF) our internal investigation shows we have committed violations THEN we should self sanction......with the NCAA's approval. If we wait for the NCAA to get around to finding what our own investigation shows we will just get screwed in recruiting another year. Getting this over as QUICKLY as possible is the only route that makes sense.

IF the investigation shows we have done nothing wrong then we should still be proactive, go the NCAA with the results of the investigation, and try to get it behind us.

dmjcat · Post by **dmjcat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:58 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:
dmjcat wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
dmjcat wrote:even if it means sitting out the 2018 NCAA tourney.
No.

I agree with putting every thing behind us as quick as possible, but you sacrifice next year's tournament and not this year's. Sorry, that's not up for debate, especially with nobody currently on the roster implicated in any thing. We take the hit for Quinerly (who will never play a game for us) next year and then move on.

No.........and it is up for debate.

Following your plan we will end up being screwed for at least 2 full recruiting classes. And by the way, the next two (or three) teams after this years end up being screwed anyway (and they certainly haven't been implicated) , instead of just one year.
No, it's not, and no it wouldn't screw us for two recruiting classes. If all this takes is losing a NCAA tournament next year then that doesn't impact the 2019 class at all seeing as their class would be tourney eligibile from the get go. It may dick the 2018 class further, but that's it.

There is no debate here. We are not banning from this year's tourney, now move on to what other options we have.

Uh, YES it will. If we wait for 2019 for sanctions (again, this assumes that our own investigation shows we screwed the pooch), then we will have screwed up 18 and 19 recruiting.....at the very least. If we proactively get the NCAA to approve 1 year of sanctions in 18 then we only lost that class.......which we pretty much already have. Your argument has no logic.

dmjcat · Post by **dmjcat** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:00 pm

ASUHATER! wrote:How in the world would you assume that is self banning for one year would absolve us from any further punishment from the NCAA? You're wildly assuming that is self imposing would magically cure everything.

Win and Vacate is the motto this year. Just win.

Win and vacate?????????????????

Vacate what??? Our 1st round NCAA game against a 12 seed??? Given how this team is shaping up we have all the more reason to get the sanctions behind us (again (for those that can't read) only if our own investigations shows we committed violations)

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:15 am

dmjcat wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
dmjcat wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:
dmjcat wrote:even if it means sitting out the 2018 NCAA tourney.
No.

I agree with putting every thing behind us as quick as possible, but you sacrifice next year's tournament and not this year's. Sorry, that's not up for debate, especially with nobody currently on the roster implicated in any thing. We take the hit for Quinerly (who will never play a game for us) next year and then move on.

No.........and it is up for debate.

Following your plan we will end up being screwed for at least 2 full recruiting classes. And by the way, the next two (or three) teams after this years end up being screwed anyway (and they certainly haven't been implicated) , instead of just one year.
No, it's not, and no it wouldn't screw us for two recruiting classes. If all this takes is losing a NCAA tournament next year then that doesn't impact the 2019 class at all seeing as their class would be tourney eligibile from the get go. It may dick the 2018 class further, but that's it.

There is no debate here. We are not banning from this year's tourney, now move on to what other options we have.
Uh, YES it will. If we wait for 2019 for sanctions (again, this assumes that our own investigation shows we screwed the pooch), then we will have screwed up 18 and 19 recruiting.....at the very least. If we proactively get the NCAA to approve 1 year of sanctions in 18 then we only lost that class.......which we pretty much already have. Your argument has no logic.

I think you're confused. The 2018 class is the class that will be freshman next year (2018-2019) and the 2019 class will be freshman in 2019-2020. If we sanction ourselves for the tournament in 2018-2019, it wouldn't affect the 2019 class at all, hence why only our 2018 class would be screwed, which it already is without even having any sanctions.

Either way if we have to deal with the type of play we had the last two nights for the rest of the season, fuck it, sacrifice this team to the devil already.

dmjcat · Post by **dmjcat** » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:47 pm

Either way if we have to deal with the type of play we had the last two nights for the rest of the season, fuck it, sacrifice this team to the devil already.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

I am not in the least bit confused........let me clear up YOUR confusion:

If (IF!) the internal UA investigation shows that the Book Richardson crap is all true then we need to self-sanction as quickly as possible and get this mess behind us. If we can get the NCAA to agree to a 2018 (March of next year Choo) post season ban then we will have stemmed the bleeding. We will keep our current two signees and have a fighting chance to sign a few 4 stars in the spring.

Any other solution that drags this mess out only serves to hurt UA basketball in the long run. Your argument that we should "Win and Vacate" is laughable. Sacrificing the UA bball program for short term gains is a terrible idea. And if you haven't noticed over the past couple of days, this team has, in reality, not much of a chance to get the the Final Four this year. If Rawle Alkins (or someone else on this team) did take $$$$ from Book then THIS team deserves to take the punishment, not the next 2-3 years teams.

In the case of the NCAA I would go further. If the internal investigation shows that we are innocent we should still be pro-active and approach the NCAA with the findings. The UA should offer to fund the NCAA's investigation in order to expedite it and clear our name. If the internal investigation shows we are guilty we should still offer to fund the NCAA's own investigation in order to expedite it. We need to kill the cloud of uncertainty over the program as fast as possible.

dmjcat · Post by **dmjcat** » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:18 pm

Brandon Williams looking good

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketbal ... ommit-2018" target="_blank

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:39 am

Just posted on the basketball FB group:

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:59 pm

Shareef hitting the ground hard: http://www.tmz.com/2017/11/28/shareef-o ... ead-video/" target="_blank

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:23 pm

Shareef tweet out that he's okay.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:25 pm

At this point I fully expect our players' heads to fall off, so this was par for the course.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:34 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:At this point I fully expect our players' heads to fall off, so this was par for the course.

We've got no food, we lost every game in the battle 4 atlantis, our players heads are falling off!

midnightx · Post by **midnightx** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:24 pm

Any recruiting updates/rumors? Is AZ still getting black-listed by recruits, or is it starting to ease up a bit? It is still hard watching what could have been a tremendous class slip away.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:02 pm

midnightx wrote:Any recruiting updates/rumors? Is AZ still getting black-listed by recruits, or is it starting to ease up a bit? It is still hard watching what could have been a tremendous class slip away.

Regardless of who else we add, we've got two very good players in our '18 class. Shareef and BW should see a fair amount of minutes next year. I'm going to assume that we're losing Alkins and Trier (and obviously Ayton). Plus we lose PJC, Ristic, and Pinder.

That means our '18 lineup is looking like this:

PG - Barcello, BW, Randolph
SG - Randolph, Akot, Smith
SF - Lee, Akot (O'Neal?)
PF - O'Neal
C - Jeter

Lots of room here to add more players. Not sure of our exact scholarship situation. Gotta get some more big bodies on this team for next year.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:35 am

Dylan Smith as well.

Assuming no transfers... should be plenty of PT with most of the top prospects off the board.

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:23 pm

#160 on 247

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:57 pm

Jefe wrote:#160 on 247

Sounds like he's been high on Arizona for a while.

https://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com ... ecruitment" target="_blank

https://scout.com/college/basketball/re ... -105500509" target="_blank

We could use another big body but he's another big guy who wants to be a guard.

sirhamsalot · Post by **sirhamsalot** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:48 pm

That is Frolings highlight video? Lol...half of the clips are him just catching a pass, turning it over, or making some sorry attempt at playing offense. I don't think I've ever seen a less athletic highlight reel. We missed out on his brother, who looked pretty good on tape, but flamed out at SMU. Pass.

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:33 am

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/recruitin ... argets-fbi" target="_blank

Froling said Arizona sees him as a similar player as Lauri Markkanen

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:51 am

Jefe wrote:https://www.azdesertswarm.com/recruitin ... argets-fbi

Froling said Arizona sees him as a similar player as Lauri Markkanen

Yeah, that was my thought too. Similar in what way exactly?

Let's face it, though: we need to add size for next year. As of now, our only frontcourt players are O'Neal, Lee, Jeter, and Akot.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:20 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:Let's face it, though: we need to add size for next year. As of now, our only frontcourt players are O'Neal, Lee, Jeter, and Akot.

Remaining Top 100 PF/Cs, by rank:

Moses Brown, holds an Arizona offer but Crystal Ball says Maryland or FSU

Emmitt Williams, no Arizona offer, Crystal Ball all over the place but recently charged with sexual assault so probably Oregon.

Jordan Brown, previously an Arizona target but cut us in his seven school short list.

EJ Montgomery, previously an Auburn commit but de-committed due to the FBI investigation, runs with the Atlanta Celtics - Kobe Simmons's old team. Seems like a 0% chance he chooses Arizona who has not offered.

J'Raan Brooks, previously a USC commit but de-committed due to the FBI investigation, no Arizona offer seems likely to head to UW.

Bryan Penn-Johnson, late blooming seven footer with a ten foot standing reach, physical freak, Arizona has been building a relationship with him since his freshman year but he's had pushes by Washington, Utah, St. Mary's, UCLA, Oregon, and even Kentucky inquiries. Plays at Akot's high school... not sure if our relationship with Akot makes our standing better or worse given his lack of PT.

If we're just looking for a body...

Devenir Duruisseau, former UW PF and 2018 grad transfer with 1.5 - 2 yrs of eligibility remaining. Cousin of Lorenzo Romar but never made an impact at UW.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:33 pm

That's very helpful, YDF, thanks.

I have a feeling we're gonna be looking at some immediately-eligible transfers to fill our frontcourt. We've had decent success with transfers, and the pool of remaining '18 freshmen doesn't look very promising.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:38 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:That's very helpful, YDF, thanks.

I have a feeling we're gonna be looking at some immediately-eligible transfers to fill our frontcourt. We've had decent success with transfers, and the pool of remaining '18 freshmen doesn't look very promising.

I've pushed Penn-Johnson before, but Choo has said we aren't really in it. I see him as the one we could possibly add without needing to pull a miracle and still deliver upside, but I'm no insider.

Grad transfers could help. There's still a lot of uncertainty across the board.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:48 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:That's very helpful, YDF, thanks.

I have a feeling we're gonna be looking at some immediately-eligible transfers to fill our frontcourt. We've had decent success with transfers, and the pool of remaining '18 freshmen doesn't look very promising.
I've pushed Penn-Johnson before, but Choo has said we aren't really in it. I see him as the one we could possibly add without needing to pull a miracle and still deliver upside, but I'm no insider.

Grad transfers could help. There's still a lot of uncertainty across the board.

The trouble is... there's not that much uncertainty outside of grad transfers. Not among PFs and Cs in the top 100 anyways - the above is the list. Maybe we dig deeper. Maybe we get one of the above (Penn Johnson is my favorite, y'all know).

Or maybe we play Ira Lee's 6'8" body and 6'10" wingspan at the five behind Jeter and we're just a different kind of team next year. We play Akot and Randolph at the SF spots, O'Neal and Akot and Lee at the PF, and some combo of O'Neal/Lee/Jeter at the five. Maybe we pick up Jarius Hamilton the 6'8" forward to add to the mix and just run a bunch of interchangeable forwards and with two guards.

sirhamsalot · Post by **sirhamsalot** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:55 pm

YoDeFoe wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:That's very helpful, YDF, thanks.

I have a feeling we're gonna be looking at some immediately-eligible transfers to fill our frontcourt. We've had decent success with transfers, and the pool of remaining '18 freshmen doesn't look very promising.
I've pushed Penn-Johnson before, but Choo has said we aren't really in it. I see him as the one we could possibly add without needing to pull a miracle and still deliver upside, but I'm no insider.

Grad transfers could help. There's still a lot of uncertainty across the board.
The trouble is... there's not that much uncertainty outside of grad transfers. Not among PFs and Cs in the top 100 anyways - the above is the list. Maybe we dig deeper. Maybe we get one of the above (Penn Johnson is my favorite, y'all know).

Or maybe we play Ira Lee's 6'8" body and 6'10" wingspan at the five behind Jeter and we're just a different kind of team next year. We play Akot and Randolph at the SF spots, O'Neal and Akot and Lee at the PF, and some combo of O'Neal/Lee/Jeter at the five. Maybe we pick up Jarius Hamilton the 6'8" forward to add to the mix and just run a bunch of interchangeable forwards and with two guards.

Regardless of what happens, we won't be as bad off as we were when we were playing Jesse Perry at the 5.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:14 pm

sirhamsalot wrote:
Regardless of what happens, we won't be as bad off as we were when we were playing Jesse Perry at the 5.

Probably not. But Jeter has yet to prove that he can be an impact player at this level. And as it stands, we're just thin in the frontcourt.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:35 pm

YoDeFoe wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:That's very helpful, YDF, thanks.

I have a feeling we're gonna be looking at some immediately-eligible transfers to fill our frontcourt. We've had decent success with transfers, and the pool of remaining '18 freshmen doesn't look very promising.
I've pushed Penn-Johnson before, but Choo has said we aren't really in it. I see him as the one we could possibly add without needing to pull a miracle and still deliver upside, but I'm no insider.

Grad transfers could help. There's still a lot of uncertainty across the board.
The trouble is... there's not that much uncertainty outside of grad transfers. Not among PFs and Cs in the top 100 anyways - the above is the list. Maybe we dig deeper. Maybe we get one of the above (Penn Johnson is my favorite, y'all know).

Or maybe we play Ira Lee's 6'8" body and 6'10" wingspan at the five behind Jeter and we're just a different kind of team next year. We play Akot and Randolph at the SF spots, O'Neal and Akot and Lee at the PF, and some combo of O'Neal/Lee/Jeter at the five. Maybe we pick up Jarius Hamilton the 6'8" forward to add to the mix and just run a bunch of interchangeable forwards and with two guards.

I like Lee a lot. I think he will be capable of being a starting PF by next year. Maybe not a NC level starting 4, but as a starting PF, I think he can be a starter on a Sweet 16ish level team.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:48 pm

I like Lee too. Great motor. He’s a little raw this year, but he’s a freshman, so no big deal. He’ll be an important player next year.

DiehardDave37 · Post by **DiehardDave37** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:45 am

Let's be realistic. Until the Book FBI thing is settled, we are tarnished and need to take the best we can get, even if he is ranked 150 and wants to be a stretch 4. The effort we put into getting big brother may help us get Samson. How can we not want a player with that name? We need a big or a reasonable imitation of one. I just don't think that we can get a big that we would consider "Arizona good" until this mess is resolved. If we do, then Miller surely is a witch.

az91 · Post by **az91** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:14 am

2018 is shaping up to be a lean year at best.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:16 am

az91 wrote:2018 is shaping up to be a lean year at best.

For most programs, Williams and O'Neal alone doesn't make for a lean year.

CatHoops · Post by **CatHoops** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:09 am

Return Barcello,Randolph, lee and Akot
Pretty solid core group

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:19 am

CatHoops wrote:Return Barcello,Randolph, lee and Akot
Pretty solid core group

Plus Smith. Jeter becomes eligible. Even if we don't add anyone, that is an 8 man rotation of solid contributors, assuming Williams and O'Neal are solid.

For a rebuilding year, it isn't a bad crew. It isn't star studded, but a lot of legit players. It could be a better defensive team than this year off the bat, IMO.

CatFanOneMil · Post by **CatFanOneMil** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:02 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
CatHoops wrote:Return Barcello,Randolph, lee and Akot
Pretty solid core group
Plus Smith. Jeter becomes eligible. Even if we don't add anyone, that is an 8 man rotation of solid contributors, assuming Williams and O'Neal are solid.

For a rebuilding year, it isn't a bad crew. It isn't star studded, but a lot of legit players. It could be a better defensive team than this year off the bat, IMO.

I like a season where we are not focused on star studded recruits(not ignoring what we've got coming in though)...it seems every time we load up with a top 10 class the expectations make it hard to be realistic about where the team actually is versus where the fans and the pollsters say it should be...

Stars tend to cloud the process, which never changes...nor should it.

One of the reasons I appreciate coaches like Mark Few, Jay Wright and Tony Bennet, those guys recruit but also are quite consistent about how the program runs and what is expected...they don't seem to depend as highly on start recruits as much as an established system and they all manage to compete or at least over-perform with less in many cases.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:42 am

CatFanOneMil wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
CatHoops wrote:Return Barcello,Randolph, lee and Akot
Pretty solid core group
Plus Smith. Jeter becomes eligible. Even if we don't add anyone, that is an 8 man rotation of solid contributors, assuming Williams and O'Neal are solid.

For a rebuilding year, it isn't a bad crew. It isn't star studded, but a lot of legit players. It could be a better defensive team than this year off the bat, IMO.

I like a season where we are not focused on star studded recruits(not ignoring what we've got coming in though)...it seems every time we load up with a top 10 class the expectations make it hard to be realistic about where the team actually is versus where the fans and the pollsters say it should be...

Stars tend to cloud the process, which never changes...nor should it.

One of the reasons I appreciate coaches like Mark Few, Jay Wright and Tony Bennet, those guys recruit but also are quite consistent about how the program runs and what is expected...they don't seem to depend as highly on start recruits as much as an established system and they all manage to compete or at least over-perform with less in many cases.

I look at it this way. There's a place for the Aytons, Markannens and Gordons in Arizona basketball. There's also a place for the Solomon Hills, Kadeem Allens and Kevin Parroms.

I'd be happy with underperforming our way to a Final Four with a super talented team. I also love to see multiyear players flower.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:28 am

The part that is frustrating to me here is...what are we really facing? I am sure an internal investigation will uncover whatever we have, but right now we have what?

* A coach accepted money to steer players to an agent and financial advisers after their eligibility, a crime, but not an NCAA violation.

* It is highly unlikely Sean Miller knew of that, as it does not help Arizona, and Book went out of the Nike network to an Adidas rep. That alone should let you know this wasn't a coordinated effort. Miller is not risking his Nike contract for chump change from a 3rd party.

* Rumors on wiretap were that an existing UA player was paid in a way that would be easy to reveal. Yet we have now played every existing player, and it would be awful bold for us to play an ineligible player. Rumors said Alkins...it appears those rumors were off-base. It would be very easy for us to identify the subject of that rumor and withhold pending investigation. Yet we have no one left sitting. Seems to indicate we don't give that rumor a lot of credibility.

* Rumors on wiretap that Book paid Jahvon Quinerly. This is the most interesting to me, how this is handled. Regardless of how we found out, it can be argued that we discovered that an assistant coach paid a recruit and terminated the relationship with both the coach and recruit before the recruit could compromise the program as an ineligible player. Again, unless it can be shown that Miller approved the payment (which is highly unlikely due to the way the money was funded), the NCAA violation here is minor...a real can of worms could be opened if the NCAA set out to heavily sanction programs for learning of a rogue action by an assistant and terminating the scholarship offer and coaches employment before any benefit to the program/games played by the ineligible player. How we found out is, seemingly, immaterial here...whether by internal QA or FBI indictment, the fact is, IF Quinerly was paid by Book, we discovered the payment and separated from all parties before he played for us, so we received no competitive advantage, and you cannot really argue "lack of institutional control" if the institution controlled the situation by terminating everyone associated with it before the player played a second, or even practiced and made teammates better or whatever. Having an definition of "institutional control" that requires mindreading or time travel in order to prevent actions that have not yet happened is absurd. All companies have the potential of employee fraud...how they mitigate the impact and react upon discovery is the name of the compliance game. The NCAA would be creating a "chill effect" that discourages programs from taking action upon discovery of rogue activity if they punish for the attempt at competitive advantage before such an advantage is gained. It would be in member school's best interest to take their chances and not take action to fire the coach and remove the offer to the player if the NCAA punishes for schools discovering such action and acting. The fact is that the NCAA did not inform us of Book's action. It would be different if the NCAA "caught" us and then we said "Oh...OK...we'll fire him and drop the offer." In that case, we could not claim control because the governing body of the sport discovered the wrongdoing. In our case, regardless of how we discovered it, we did not get caught by the NCAA. We acted upon information we received that a violation was occurring independent of NCAA detection, and terminated those involved before we gained any advantage, and without NCAA involvement. The NCAA needs to tread very carefully here; if they heavily sanction a program for discovering potential wrongdoing and eliminating it before eligibility was compromised outside of an NCAA investigation, they are saying programs have to be perfect and are better off taking no action and hoping for the best if they discover wrongdoing.

So, am I missing anything? If there is nothing to suggest we paid a player (at least in any way that is discovered by the FBI or that involves coaching staff) and action was taken to remove the coach who attempted to compromise eligibility by paying a recruit, and the offer to that player was removed before the ineligible player plays, and there is nothing to suggest the staff instructed the coach pay the recruit or knew of the payment...what are we facing? Realistically?

I kind of feel like the NCAA is holding us hostage

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:49 am

Rumors also say the paid player was Kobi Simmons and he is gone

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:51 am

EVcat. I mostly agree with your post.

Quinerly is the closest situation to confirmed wrongdoing. To be a full NCAA violation that impacts JQ's eligibility, you'd need to get to the level of confirming the payment.

With Book, he's gone. This is already a "sanction" of sorts. All of the penalty on Book would be for past actions.

That leaves 2 questions:

1. Is there any misconduct that's unknown at this point?
2. Could the NCAA find Book's conduct attributable to a lack of institutional control?

Those are the questions/answers that will define the remainder of what comes, in my amateur opinion.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:00 pm

azcat49 wrote:Rumors also say the paid player was Kobi Simmons and he is gone

That would be more problematic for the program. As he did play.

CatFanOneMil · Post by **CatFanOneMil** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:01 pm

EVCat wrote:The part that is frustrating to me here is...what are we really facing? I am sure an internal investigation will uncover whatever we have, but right now we have what?

* A coach accepted money to steer players to an agent and financial advisers after their eligibility, a crime, but not an NCAA violation.

* It is highly unlikely Sean Miller knew of that, as it does not help Arizona, and Book went out of the Nike network to an Adidas rep. That alone should let you know this wasn't a coordinated effort. Miller is not risking his Nike contract for chump change from a 3rd party.

* Rumors on wiretap were that an existing UA player was paid in a way that would be easy to reveal. Yet we have now played every existing player, and it would be awful bold for us to play an ineligible player. Rumors said Alkins...it appears those rumors were off-base. It would be very easy for us to identify the subject of that rumor and withhold pending investigation. Yet we have no one left sitting. Seems to indicate we don't give that rumor a lot of credibility.

* Rumors on wiretap that Book paid Jahvon Quinerly. This is the most interesting to me, how this is handled. Regardless of how we found out, it can be argued that we discovered that an assistant coach paid a recruit and terminated the relationship with both the coach and recruit before the recruit could compromise the program as an ineligible player. Again, unless it can be shown that Miller approved the payment (which is highly unlikely due to the way the money was funded), the NCAA violation here is minor...a real can of worms could be opened if the NCAA set out to heavily sanction programs for learning of a rogue action by an assistant and terminating the scholarship offer and coaches employment before any benefit to the program/games played by the ineligible player. How we found out is, seemingly, immaterial here...whether by internal QA or FBI indictment, the fact is, IF Quinerly was paid by Book, we discovered the payment and separated from all parties before he played for us, so we received no competitive advantage, and you cannot really argue "lack of institutional control" if the institution controlled the situation by terminating everyone associated with it before the player played a second, or even practiced and made teammates better or whatever. Having an definition of "institutional control" that requires mindreading or time travel in order to prevent actions that have not yet happened is absurd. All companies have the potential of employee fraud...how they mitigate the impact and react upon discovery is the name of the compliance game. The NCAA would be creating a "chill effect" that discourages programs from taking action upon discovery of rogue activity if they punish for the attempt at competitive advantage before such an advantage is gained. It would be in member school's best interest to take their chances and not take action to fire the coach and remove the offer to the player if the NCAA punishes for schools discovering such action and acting. The fact is that the NCAA did not inform us of Book's action. It would be different if the NCAA "caught" us and then we said "Oh...OK...we'll fire him and drop the offer." In that case, we could not claim control because the governing body of the sport discovered the wrongdoing. In our case, regardless of how we discovered it, we did not get caught by the NCAA. We acted upon information we received that a violation was occurring independent of NCAA detection, and terminated those involved before we gained any advantage, and without NCAA involvement. The NCAA needs to tread very carefully here; if they heavily sanction a program for discovering potential wrongdoing and eliminating it before eligibility was compromised outside of an NCAA investigation, they are saying programs have to be perfect and are better off taking no action and hoping for the best if they discover wrongdoing.

So, am I missing anything? If there is nothing to suggest we paid a player (at least in any way that is discovered by the FBI or that involves coaching staff) and action was taken to remove the coach who attempted to compromise eligibility by paying a recruit, and the offer to that player was removed before the ineligible player plays, and there is nothing to suggest the staff instructed the coach pay the recruit or knew of the payment...what are we facing? Realistically?

I kind of feel like the NCAA is holding us hostage

Very good points EV, but what evidence do we have that the NCAA is holding us hostage?

As far as I can tell, until an investigation is done and an audit of some sort by the ruling body, and THEN some official response by the NCAA, no one is doing anything to anyone else at this point...just a lot of frowning and posturing.

Looking at how the NCAA handled UNC I would suggets that along your line of reasoning we should not really except anything at all once everything comes to the light.

There might be some sort of side-swipe over the whole Chris Rounds/Pinder violation...but again we discovered and self imposed on that before it was made public...

Not to say that the NCAA is incapable of arbitrary bullshit actions, I mean it IS the "Not Capable of Adjucating Aboveboard

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:17 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:EVcat. I mostly agree with your post.

Quinerly is the closest situation to confirmed wrongdoing. To be a full NCAA violation that impacts JQ's eligibility, you'd need to get to the level of confirming the payment.

With Book, he's gone. This is already a "sanction" of sorts. All of the penalty on Book would be for past actions.

That leaves 2 questions:

1. Is there any misconduct that's unknown at this point?
2. Could the NCAA find Book's conduct attributable to a lack of institutional control?

Those are the questions/answers that will define the remainder of what comes, in my amateur opinion.

Yes...the concern of other uncovered wrongdoing is always the Damocles' Sword hanging over us.

The "attributing Book's conduct as a lack of institutional control" part is mostly what I am speaking to...the chill that would put on teams discovering wrongdoing and acting on their own is so counter to the point of policing wrongdoing. There are so many aspects of this that point to a rogue action, the most obvious, and cynical, being there is no fucking way Sean Miller would have even inferred Book go to an Adidas-affiliated source to raise chump change. If the NCAA's definition of "institutional control" is complete compliance by all employees, with the institution having to anticipate wrongdoing before it happens and stop it, then it is an impossible expectation to meet, and, again, would serve to chill any motivation for a program to discover improper actions on staff and act. The only leg to stand on for the NCAA would be Book's "past problems" and the knowledge of those issues owes as much to rumor and legend as it does to any firm discovery, certainly in any documented manner. Otherwise, what you have here is a school that utilized learned information outside of NCAA investigation (FBI) to discover wrongdoing.

To eligibility, Quinerly never played for us, so his lack of amateur status never provided a competitive advantage. You cannot even argue he was a pro illegally helping in practice, because he didn't even make it that far. The situation was sussed before the reason such rules are in place happened.

So, unless #1 provides additional wrongdoing of a substantial nature, we are down to "does the NCAA wish to punish member institutions for taking action to eliminate those involved with impropriety before competitive advantage is gained, with full knowledge that doing so essentially punishes the institution for taking action and revealing the wrongdoing? Our situation is different in how we learned...it was a public reveal outside of our control...but the timeline of the action remains the same as an internal finding. The key piece being action taken before an ineligible player provides benefit to the program. Clearly, discovery of impropriety that involved a gained benefit has to be punished, because there is too much incentive for the school to report to "get out of trouble", to beg forgiveness through contrition after the fact.

But if the aim here is to eliminate competitive advantage through use of compensated players by ruling such players "ineligible" by way of compromised amateur status, how do you punish when a program does not gain such advantage, eliminates the player scholarship and the employment of all associated with the tainted status before advantage is gained, and does so independent of NCAA investigation? Otherwise, we are better off keeping Book and Quinerly and arguing nothing happened.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:44 pm

CatFanOneMil wrote:Very good points EV, but what evidence do we have that the NCAA is holding us hostage?

By waiting to rule and making no statements related to what we are even to be investigated for, if anything. The problem is, what if nothing ever comes to light? Is the NCAA serving a member institution by allowing us to lose future recruits while waiting for something to come to light, considering if nothing comes to light, there is no timeline for "nothing" to happen?

Certainly, the NCAA has every right to change their position if more information is made available that puts us in jeopardy, but there is nothing to stop them from saying "we have no evidence of compromised eligibility at Arizona. We are aware of the rumors regarding assistant coach Emmanual "Book" Richardson; if there was no further impropriety or involvement by existing Arizona staff, and no player participated as a student-athlete with compromised eligibility, there will be no further action taken. The FBI transcripts show wiretap conversations of people not affiliated with the program speaking about rumors of impropriety...those rumors will be investigated. However, as of now, the NCAA has no evidence of impropriety with the Arizona basketball program, athletic department, or staff. That is all we will speak to at this time."

It would go a long way towards not holding us...hostage...while they wait to maybe do something. You cannot prove a negative. So should we continue to be toxic to players over not being able to disprove a negative?

I am aware that is not how the NCAA operates. In this case, however, you have questions of potential violations provided by an outside party, not an NCAA investigation. And there is no clear violation.

The NCAA could let the world know whether we face sanctions on the face of what we do know, and also if Book did provide benefits to someone who never came to campus. But they won't.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:01 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
CatHoops wrote:Return Barcello,Randolph, lee and Akot
Pretty solid core group
Plus Smith. Jeter becomes eligible. Even if we don't add anyone, that is an 8 man rotation of solid contributors, assuming Williams and O'Neal are solid.

For a rebuilding year, it isn't a bad crew. It isn't star studded, but a lot of legit players. It could be a better defensive team than this year off the bat, IMO.

It's a solid group of 8 - I really like all of those guys (well... I'm telling myself I like Jeter). I think we cover all of our bases and we've got enough depth at each position to win games.

But it's definitely thin given I can't remember the last year that we didn't lose a guy for a spell due to injury or issues.

Remember that Miller saw this as a five or six man class. We've got two.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:02 pm

EVCat wrote:
CatFanOneMil wrote:Very good points EV, but what evidence do we have that the NCAA is holding us hostage?

By waiting to rule and making no statements related to what we are even to be investigated for, if anything. The problem is, what if nothing ever comes to light? Is the NCAA serving a member institution by allowing us to lose future recruits while waiting for something to come to light, considering if nothing comes to light, there is no timeline for "nothing" to happen?

Certainly, the NCAA has every right to change their position if more information is made available that puts us in jeopardy, but there is nothing to stop them from saying "we have no evidence of compromised eligibility at Arizona. We are aware of the rumors regarding assistant coach Emmanual "Book" Richardson; if there was no further impropriety or involvement by existing Arizona staff, and no player participated as a student-athlete with compromised eligibility, there will be no further action taken. The FBI transcripts show wiretap conversations of people not affiliated with the program speaking about rumors of impropriety...those rumors will be investigated. However, as of now, the NCAA has no evidence of impropriety with the Arizona basketball program, athletic department, or staff. That is all we will speak to at this time."

It would go a long way towards not holding us...hostage...while they wait to maybe do something. You cannot prove a negative. So should we continue to be toxic to players over not being able to disprove a negative?

I am aware that is not how the NCAA operates. In this case, however, you have questions of potential violations provided by an outside party, not an NCAA investigation. And there is no clear violation.

The NCAA could let the world know whether we face sanctions on the face of what we do know, and also if Book did provide benefits to someone who never came to campus. But they won't.

Agreed EV, this is a punishment in its own right, though the NCAA would certainly disagree with that characterization - making it all the worse for Arizona.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:22 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:
Jefe wrote:https://www.azdesertswarm.com/recruitin ... argets-fbi

Froling said Arizona sees him as a similar player as Lauri Markkanen

Yeah, that was my thought too. Similar in what way exactly?

Let's face it, though: we need to add size for next year. As of now, our only frontcourt players are O'Neal, Lee, Jeter, and Akot.

1. He's not similar to Lauri outside of them both being foreigners and Sam can hit a 3 here and there.
2. He's better than his brother, so that's a plus.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:29 pm

azcat49 wrote:Rumors also say the paid player was Kobi Simmons and he is gone

Real rumors suggest that there's nothing definitive *at this very moment* that any one on this year's team or last year's team was paid in any way shape or form. Doesn't mean they weren't of course, but you need proof. What we have in that regard is an used car salesman's words. The most damning thing for us at the moment is Quinerly because it was Book's very words that brought that one to light. He'll never play at the U of A though so how damning will that be in the long run? The longer this goes on with nothing more dropping the easier this gets for Arizona to run things as normal and selling recruits on that fact. Normal recruiting (as normal as it can get for the moment) will be resuming shortly starting with Froling, a 4 year role player. It will be interesting to see where Arizona goes from here, we've already discussed some names so let's see.

From the way this is tracking though the punishment that we will receive will predominantly stem from the damage that came with losing Nassir Little, Jahvon Quinerly, and Bol Bol.

luteformayor2 · Post by **luteformayor2** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:30 pm

Next year is gonna be fun. We will have a group of ballers, a few 5 stars, mostly in the "power-wing" player mold. Our point guard situation will be better and if Randolph, Akot, and Lee stick around that is a very good lineup. As long as Jeter can play minutes at the 5 we are not bad at all.

I think that lineup will be fun as hell.

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