Game 17, vs Oregon State (2017-2018)

[qwertyus]

Put a fork in the season.

Sean Miller has had 9 years to figure out effective offensive sets against a zone. And yet here we are, getting fucking punked by Oregon State. At home. With the best player in CBB.

It's not the sets. It's execution. PJC is actually playing a pretty good game. But this game just shows how limited he is. He can't get in the paint and create. And Trier & Alkins can't or won't penetrate the gaps under control. This zone is nothing special. Look at the wide open misses that Alkins has had. Tons of opportunities. Maddening.

We haven't gotten open looks every time, because it's just screen after screen, and dribble handoffs. Nothing happening. Over and over. It hasn't been a well-coached offensive game, but thankfully, defense has been better.

[TatetheGreat]

Ristic is so soft. Dude is 7' and couldn't throw that one down. FOH

[qwertyus]

Ristic is so soft. Dude is 7' and couldn't throw that one down. FOH

He's a terrible dunker. IDK why.

[Merkin]

Show those cheerleaders again please

And Oregon's will look even better. At least they'll be something good to look at at McKale. It surely isn't the basketball team.

The Oregon cheer squad needs to take the eyes off those awful Duck uniforms.

[RondaeShimmy]

Ristic is so soft. Dude is 7' and couldn't throw that one down. FOH

He's a terrible dunker. IDK why.

2" vertical

[Captain Obvious]

Ristic is so soft. Dude is 7' and couldn't throw that one down. FOH

I was happy when Tarczewski left. I may be happier when Ristic is finally gone. We need aggression; not passivity.

[zonagrad]

Put a fork in the season.

Sean Miller has had 9 years to figure out effective offensive sets against a zone. And yet here we are, getting fucking punked by Oregon State. At home. With the best player in CBB.

It's not the sets. It's execution. PJC is actually playing a pretty good game. But this game just shows how limited he is. He can't get in the paint and create. And Trier & Alkins can't or won't penetrate the gaps under control. This zone is nothing special. Look at the wide open misses that Alkins has had. Tons of opportunities. Maddening.

We haven't gotten open looks every time, because it's just screen after screen, and dribble handoffs. Nothing happening. Over and over. It hasn't been a well-coached offensive game, but thankfully, defense has been better.

We don't get open looks because Trier & Alkins don't penetrate the gaps under control. And PJC can't because it's not in his skill set and he gets too deep and can't finish. Trier & Alkins can easily flash to the middle, catch at the elbow or even closer and then attack the rim or dish to the low post or kick out to an open three. It's all there. The execution is terrible. They don't know how to read a zone.

[qwertyus]

Lol. PJC can't even handle the ball anymore? What good is he?

[Captain Obvious]

Ristic is so soft. Dude is 7' and couldn't throw that one down. FOH

He's a terrible dunker. IDK why.

2" vertical

0" vertical

[Merkin]

"Clean up the tinkle sweat"

[dmjcat]

Ristic is so soft. Dude is 7' and couldn't throw that one down. FOH

He's a terrible dunker. IDK why.

2" vertical

0" vertical

-2" vertical...............he bends his knees

[RondaeShimmy]

Ristic is so soft. Dude is 7' and couldn't throw that one down. FOH

He's a terrible dunker. IDK why.

2" vertical

0" vertical

-2" vertical...............he bends his knees

Math checks out

[Captain Obvious]

Ristic is so soft. Dude is 7' and couldn't throw that one down. FOH

He's a terrible dunker. IDK why.

2" vertical

0" vertical

-2" vertical...............he bends his knees

LMAO! Fantastic reply!

[Merkin]

Ristic is so soft. Dude is 7' and couldn't throw that one down. FOH

I was happy when Tarczewski left. I may be happier when Ristic is finally gone. We need aggression; not passivity.

Zeus had T Rex arms and granite hands, but he really made the other players a lot better. He was always in the right place.

[FreeSpiritCat]

Why do I feel like this is a technical loss?

[Bangkok Wildcat]

A bit chippy....Zo with the 3 and the ‘GTFO’ call

[Bangkok Wildcat]

Why do I feel like this is a technical loss?

Just thankful for the win at this point...ughhh

[prh]

Oregon State talking a lot of junk for being Oregon State

[Captain Obvious]

Ristic is so soft. Dude is 7' and couldn't throw that one down. FOH

I was happy when Tarczewski left. I may be happier when Ristic is finally gone. We need aggression; not passivity.

Zeus had T Rex arms and granite hands, but he really made the other players a lot better. He was always in the right place.

Actually you're right. I should lighten up. I let the two Wisconsin losses obscure all the positives he contributed.

[qwertyus]

Hey, that PJC miss gave Ayton a double double!

[dmjcat]

Gutted out the win..........the return trip to Corvallis is not going to be fun.

The UW game at Seattle is also looking ugly. Boeheims old assistant has the Dogs playing the best zone in the conference, and they are much longer and more athletic than OSU.

[RondaeShimmy]

Another Saturday afternoon next up vs Oregon, at least it's home game.

[Alieberman]

Shameful win.

I'm going to the Oregon game on Saturday... I really hope to see a much better effort

[PieceOfMeat]

62-53 final score for the Cats victory.

like i said earlier, good thing OrSU is shitty lol

[Spaceman Spiff]

Well, that was a pretty ugly win. At least it was a win.

[jsbowl16]

Why was it a bad win? We gave up the least points we did all year and everyone is saying it is a bad win. Is that because we didnt score 90?

This is exactly what Miller was talking about. Win games when our offense is shit.

[ASUHATER!]

Why was it a bad win? We gave up the least points we did all year and everyone is saying it is a bad win. Is that because we didnt score 90?

Because we looked like ass almost the entire game

[jsbowl16]

Why was it a bad win? We gave up the least points we did all year and everyone is saying it is a bad win. Is that because we didnt score 90?

Because we looked like ass almost the entire game

Then I guess everyone in college basketball looks like ass right now.

[qwertyus]

Why was it a bad win? We gave up the least points we did all year and everyone is saying it is a bad win. Is that because we didnt score 90?

Did you watch the game? We let Oregon State have a lead for the entire first half and significant parts of the second. We walked around and took bad shots on the offensive end. We scored 21 goddamn points in one half of basketball! Against Oregon State, AT HOME. This team finally showed some defensive grit, which is good, because otherwise, we were looking at another loss like last week.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Why was it a bad win? We gave up the least points we did all year and everyone is saying it is a bad win. Is that because we didnt score 90?

This is exactly what Miller was talking about. Win games when our offense is shit.

The first half was just bad. Second half, we got some stuff going, but we had 9 to's, got outrebounded and shot under 40% from the field and under 20% from 3 in the 1st half. If we only saw the second half, people wouldn't be so down.

[jsbowl16]

Why was it a bad win? We gave up the least points we did all year and everyone is saying it is a bad win. Is that because we didnt score 90?

Did you watch the game? We let Oregon State have a lead for the entire first half and significant parts of the second. We walked around and took bad shots on the offensive end. We scored 21 goddamn points in one half of basketball! Against Oregon State, AT HOME. This team finally showed some defensive grit, which is good, because otherwise, we were looking at another loss like last week.

Yeah I watched the whole game. Did anyone else watch the defensive end of the floor or do all of you just watch when we cross half court with the ball.

[qwertyus]

Why was it a bad win? We gave up the least points we did all year and everyone is saying it is a bad win. Is that because we didnt score 90?

Did you watch the game? We let Oregon State have a lead for the entire first half and significant parts of the second. We walked around and took bad shots on the offensive end. We scored 21 goddamn points in one half of basketball! Against Oregon State, AT HOME. This team finally showed some defensive grit, which is good, because otherwise, we were looking at another loss like last week.

Yeah I watched the whole game. Did anyone else watch the defensive end of the floor or do all of you just watch when we cross half court with the ball.

"This team finally showed some defensive grit, which is good, because otherwise, we were looking at another loss like last week."

Reading is fundamental. If we are firing on both sides of the ball, we blow this Oregon State team out, which is what we should be doing. Instead, we scrape out a win. Will this team put it together Saturday? Maybe.

[FreeSpiritCat]

Why was it a bad win? We gave up the least points we did all year and everyone is saying it is a bad win. Is that because we didnt score 90?

Did you watch the game? We let Oregon State have a lead for the entire first half and significant parts of the second. We walked around and took bad shots on the offensive end. We scored 21 goddamn points in one half of basketball! Against Oregon State, AT HOME. This team finally showed some defensive grit, which is good, because otherwise, we were looking at another loss like last week.

Yeah I watched the whole game. Did anyone else watch the defensive end of the floor or do all of you just watch when we cross half court with the ball.

"This team finally showed some defensive grit, which is good, because otherwise, we were looking at another loss like last week."

Reading is fundamental. If we are firing on both sides of the ball, we blow this Oregon State team out, which is what we should be doing. Instead, we scrape out a win. Will this team put it together Saturday? Maybe.

It’s not so much about the game Saturday as much as it is the lack of improvement. Either the Cats aren’t developing or other teams are developing quicker. Either way, it is mid January, and this isn’t a good sign. Right now I don’t see the Cats doing any damage in any tourney.

[FreeSpiritCat]

Why was it a bad win? We gave up the least points we did all year and everyone is saying it is a bad win. Is that because we didnt score 90?

Did you watch the game? We let Oregon State have a lead for the entire first half and significant parts of the second. We walked around and took bad shots on the offensive end. We scored 21 goddamn points in one half of basketball! Against Oregon State, AT HOME. This team finally showed some defensive grit, which is good, because otherwise, we were looking at another loss like last week.

Yeah I watched the whole game. Did anyone else watch the defensive end of the floor or do all of you just watch when we cross half court with the ball.

"This team finally showed some defensive grit, which is good, because otherwise, we were looking at another loss like last week."

Reading is fundamental. If we are firing on both sides of the ball, we blow this Oregon State team out, which is what we should be doing. Instead, we scrape out a win. Will this team put it together Saturday? Maybe.

It’s not so much about the game Saturday, or wins and losses, as much as it is the lack of improvement. Either the Cats aren’t developing or other teams are developing quicker. Either way, it is mid January, and this isn’t a good sign. Right now I don’t see the Cats doing any damage in any tourney.

[zonagrad]

I think this was an important game. Guys are learning that defense leads to offense and that can be a great lesson. Offensively our execution against the zone was lacking big time. We came out tight and couldn't get out of our own way. Ayton played just 11 minutes in the first half because of foul trouble. Almost everything that could go wrong (and right for OSU) did. And yet we still got it done. I'm actually glad this was a bit of a grind. We need games like this where shots aren't falling and we need to grind out a win.

Hell, Michigan State barely escaped at home against Rutgers in overtime. We'd be freaking out if that happened. I think OSU is better than Rutgers.

We're learning out identity. PJC's defense on the ball was really good. Maybe OSU's lack of a true point guard probably contributed to that. But it was key to us really giving OSU fits. They couldn't execute their offense at all.

Our shortcomings on offense aren't going to go away. Ayton is special. But as good as he is, we just don't have a guard who can take command. I'm resigned to PJC being what he is. I'd like for him to be able to create more in the paint and generate more offense for himself and finish. But it's just not in his skill set. He actually played a really good game tonight. Alkins was a disaster until the late second half.

I'm also happy our bench got some minutes. Hopefully they'll continue to contribute more and more. We really need their development. Randolph made some foolish plays in the second half. But Lee brought a lot of energy. But I like the energy they bring. Noticeably absent was Barcello.

[Longhorned]

Lost in all the talk about Miller's lack of diversity on defense is that Arizona won that game by extending out of the pack-line, trapping their guards, and creating turnovers.

[qwertyus]

I think this was an important game. Guys are learning that defense leads to offense and that can be a great lesson. Offensively our execution against the zone was lacking big time. We came out tight and couldn't get out of our own way. Ayton played just 11 minutes in the first half because of foul trouble. Almost everything that could go wrong (and right for OSU) did. And yet we still got it done. I'm actually glad this was a bit of a grind. We need games like this where shots aren't falling and we need to grind out a win.

Hell, Michigan State barely escaped at home against Rutgers in overtime. We'd be freaking out if that happened. I think OSU is better than Rutgers.

We're learning out identity. PJC's defense on the ball was really good. Maybe OSU's lack of a true point guard probably contributed to that. But it was key to us really giving OSU fits. They couldn't execute their offense at all.

Our shortcomings on offense aren't going to go away. Ayton is special. But as good as he is, we just don't have a guard who can take command. I'm resigned to PJC being what he is. I'd like for him to be able to create more in the paint and generate more offense for himself and finish. But it's just not in his skill set. He actually played a really good game tonight. Alkins was a disaster until the late second half.

I'm also happy our bench got some minutes. Hopefully they'll continue to contribute more and more. We really need their development. Randolph made some foolish plays in the second half. But Lee brought a lot of energy. But I like the energy they bring. Noticeably absent was Barcello.

On PJC, he had a good game defensively. He was not good on offense. Trier and Ayton found their way by the end, but Rawle, Ristic, and PJC were disappointing to me on the offensive side of the ball.

On D, the team really stepped it up and switched well, only 1 or 2 back cuts that worked. I think that's one of the things we can take away. Almost no open looks, played through foul trouble, and took advantage of refs that allowed physical play.

A note on the refs, anyone notice how the officiating was actually pretty damn good this game? Neither team in the bonus for a long time, both teams allowed to be physical. Am I crazy?

[zonagrad]

I think this was an important game. Guys are learning that defense leads to offense and that can be a great lesson. Offensively our execution against the zone was lacking big time. We came out tight and couldn't get out of our own way. Ayton played just 11 minutes in the first half because of foul trouble. Almost everything that could go wrong (and right for OSU) did. And yet we still got it done. I'm actually glad this was a bit of a grind. We need games like this where shots aren't falling and we need to grind out a win.

Hell, Michigan State barely escaped at home against Rutgers in overtime. We'd be freaking out if that happened. I think OSU is better than Rutgers.

We're learning out identity. PJC's defense on the ball was really good. Maybe OSU's lack of a true point guard probably contributed to that. But it was key to us really giving OSU fits. They couldn't execute their offense at all.

Our shortcomings on offense aren't going to go away. Ayton is special. But as good as he is, we just don't have a guard who can take command. I'm resigned to PJC being what he is. I'd like for him to be able to create more in the paint and generate more offense for himself and finish. But it's just not in his skill set. He actually played a really good game tonight. Alkins was a disaster until the late second half.

I'm also happy our bench got some minutes. Hopefully they'll continue to contribute more and more. We really need their development. Randolph made some foolish plays in the second half. But Lee brought a lot of energy. But I like the energy they bring. Noticeably absent was Barcello.

On PJC, he had a good game defensively. He was not good on offense. Trier and Ayton found their way by the end, but Rawle, Ristic, and PJC were disappointing to me on the offensive side of the ball.

On D, the team really stepped it up and switched well, only 1 or 2 back cuts that worked. I think that's one of the things we can take away. Almost no open looks, played through foul trouble, and took advantage of refs that allowed physical play.

A note on the refs, anyone notice how the officiating was actually pretty damn good this game? Neither team in the bonus for a long time, both teams allowed to be physical. Am I crazy?

An opponent with a good point guard and it might tell a different story. But you play to your strengths or in this case, against your opponent's weaknesses. Offensively we just aren't the type of team that can work the ball on the perimeter and expect to be successful. We need to get out in transition. That's where Trier & Alkins flourish. That's why it's so important to pound the ball inside against a zone defense or attack the gaps in the zone. Randolph or Akot are the perfect size for being the guy who can work the elbow of the key against a zone. They're just inexperienced and probably not strong enough yet. Alkins & Trier can't or won't do it. But it's there for the taking.

Ristic was Ristic. He offers a lot for us on offense when we stagnate. But for everything he gives us, he also gives up position on defense. And he rarely wins the 50/50 balls on the rebounds. Against really athletic & physical opponents he's going to be our undoing. He's just not physically capable of winning those match ups.

[U.P. Zona Fan]

Gonna have to bring more to the Oregon game.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Lost in all the talk about Miller's lack of diversity on defense is that Arizona won that game by extending out of the pack-line, trapping their guards, and creating turnovers.

People whine about Miller being a packline guy all the time and ignore that he frequently adjusts the principles of the packline situationally. He showed it earlier this year in dropping off the hard hedging when we struggled there.

The criticism tends to he people thinking the only way you can adjust on D is to play zone or press. There are tons of tweaks within the basic system and Miller absolutely does that.

[RondaeShimmy]

Lost in all the talk about Miller's lack of diversity on defense is that Arizona won that game by extending out of the pack-line, trapping their guards, and creating turnovers.

People whine about Miller being a packline guy all the time and ignore that he frequently adjusts the principles of the packline situationally. He showed it earlier this year in dropping off the hard hedging when we struggled there.

The criticism tends to he people thinking the only way you can adjust on D is to play zone or press. There are tons of tweaks within the basic system and Miller absolutely does that.

What's wrong with a straight M2M

[Spaceman Spiff]

Lost in all the talk about Miller's lack of diversity on defense is that Arizona won that game by extending out of the pack-line, trapping their guards, and creating turnovers.

People whine about Miller being a packline guy all the time and ignore that he frequently adjusts the principles of the packline situationally. He showed it earlier this year in dropping off the hard hedging when we struggled there.

The criticism tends to he people thinking the only way you can adjust on D is to play zone or press. There are tons of tweaks within the basic system and Miller absolutely does that.

What's wrong with a straight M2M

There is no such thing.

[RondaeShimmy]

Lost in all the talk about Miller's lack of diversity on defense is that Arizona won that game by extending out of the pack-line, trapping their guards, and creating turnovers.

People whine about Miller being a packline guy all the time and ignore that he frequently adjusts the principles of the packline situationally. He showed it earlier this year in dropping off the hard hedging when we struggled there.

The criticism tends to he people thinking the only way you can adjust on D is to play zone or press. There are tons of tweaks within the basic system and Miller absolutely does that.

What's wrong with a straight M2M

There is no such thing.

Would you advocate for Miller to switch to a packline defense if he didn't run it?

[Spaceman Spiff]

To not keep quoting into oblivion, every defense brings positives and negatives. The type of defense selected by a coach matter far less than the effectiveness in teaching it and getting the players executing it.

[RondaeShimmy]

Would you want Miller to switch to it if he didn't run it?

Didn't answer that

[Spaceman Spiff]

Would you want Miller to switch to it if he didn't run it?

Didn't answer that

Thanks for the cross examination. I would want Miller to run the system he felt most comfortable teaching players to execute. For Miller, it's packline, so yes. If it was another coach, my answer would be different.

If I can ask a question in return, why does that question (or the answer) matter?

[RondaeShimmy]

Thanks for the cross examination. I would want Miller to run the system he felt most comfortable teaching players to execute. For Miller, it's packline, so yes. If it was another coach, my answer would be different.

If I can ask a question in return, why does that question (or the answer) matter?

Well the way I see it, the only time I've been sold on it was the two McConnell years.

Having said that, those teams had multiple NBA caliber defenders and one (Zeus) who would've been drafted a decade ago.

Since Miller isn't recruiting for his system (packline) like say a Tony Bennett, Bob Huggins, so brings up a question for me

If Miller needs NBA caliber defenders and players to have good defenses, is it really the packline or the players. Idk too much about the game but a team with TJ, Zeus, Gordon/Johnson, RHJ, NJ would be good defensively no matter what. Kadeem another example from last year.

In other words those teams weren't good defensively BECAUSE of the packline, they were good because they had good defenders imo.

If it's the players not the system, what's the point of the system? It's a middle man

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the cross examination. I would want Miller to run the system he felt most comfortable teaching players to execute. For Miller, it's packline, so yes. If it was another coach, my answer would be different.

If I can ask a question in return, why does that question (or the answer) matter?

Well the way I see it, the only time I've been sold on it was the two McConnell years.

Having said that, those teams had multiple NBA caliber defenders and one (Zeus) who would've been drafted a decade ago.

Since Miller isn't recruiting for his system (packline) like say a Tony Bennett, Bob Huggins, so brings up a question for me

If Miller needs NBA caliber defenders and players to have good defenses, is it really the packline or the players. Idk too much about the game but a team with TJ, Zeus, Gordon/Johnson, RHJ, NJ would be good defensively no matter what. Kadeem another example from last year.

In other words those teams weren't good defensively BECAUSE of the packline, they were good because they had good defenders imo.

If it's the players not the system, what's the point of the system? It's a middle man

Every system relies on good defenders who execute. If you have Scottie Pippens and Gary Payton's on the perimeter and Olajuwon in the lane, the coach can pretty well spend practice time peeing in a bucket and produce good D.

That said, you underrate the developmental process. NJ wasn't a lockdown guy his freshman year. Miller has consistently taught people how to be good defenders and how to execute the system. Even last year, with Dusan and PJC (and their physical limitations) starting alongside Lauri and Trier (decent defenders to ok) we produced a top 30 D. Kadeem and MAYBE Lauri were the only starters with above average defensive physical ability.

You have to have some principles defensively. I don't really understand your argument about the system. No coach just lets people run around and just tells them to guard someone. All college systems have rotation principles, helpside principles, etc.