Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
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Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Background
“Our conference is in the worst condition officiating I’ve ever seen. When people come out and steal basketball games from our young people like that crew did, they deserve to be put in jail and not working basketball games” – Lute Olson, March 6, 1982
Me and Lute, two pees in a pod. Unfortunately neither of us had any statistical base to make the claim, just a gut feeling that what we're watching is far below par.
But then I got really frustrated after the Arizona at Washington game - that was one of the worst reffed games I'd seen. So last week I started looking for stats and found KenPom's referee ratings. He basically rates refs by seeing how often they're reffing the best games in basketball. It's not a perfect system but it makes some sense.
I wanted to see how each conference stacked up so I looked at only conference games. Also, I only included the power six and a single mid major conference for comparison because this isn't my job.
I took KenPom's top 50 refs of each year and accumulated every game they reffed over the last three seasons (season to date to Feb 5th and the previous two years). Then I tallied how many times they refereed each conference - that's the pool. Finally, I tallied the total number of games each conference employed a top 50 ref and produced a percentage of top 50 presence for each conference. That's top ref presence.
It's not an exact measure, not nearly, but could it provide some perspective? See below:
Winners and Losers
Let's start with % share. The ACC and the B1G are the big winners here, each getting about 20% of the pool. The Big XII, Big East, and SEC each clock in the respectable mid-low teens... and then there's the Pac-12. The Pac-12 is in the single digits along with our mid-major for reference conference, the A-10.
Wait... what?
Not that there's anything wrong with the A-10, but as far as I can tell from public resources they make about a third of the revenue as the Pac-12.
Maybe the Pac-12 deserves it - we're the sixth worst conference in basketball, right?
Well let's compare ref rankings against KenPom's conference rankings and see if there are any correlations or curiosities...
The winner here is clearly the B1G, getting the most quality ref presences while performing near the bottom of the conference ranking. On the other hand... the Big XII is getting hosed as the three year best conference in basketball with only the fourth most quality ref presences.
Now I don't know if the KenPom ref rankings are "good" or if there is regional restrictions on refs and how far they travel. Maybe the Big XII aren't getting their due because their arenas aren't near airport hubs (I have no idea if this is true but I do know that Texas Tech is in Lubbock). Maybe the distance between Pac-12 schools and then the further distance between the Pac-12 and other conferences precludes big game refs from working our games. There's a whole basket of stuff that I don't know, and I don't even know how big the basket is.
What I do know is that the Pac-12 has the worst goddamn refs of the power six conferences and Lute Olson is as right as his hair is white.
“Our conference is in the worst condition officiating I’ve ever seen. When people come out and steal basketball games from our young people like that crew did, they deserve to be put in jail and not working basketball games” – Lute Olson, March 6, 1982
Me and Lute, two pees in a pod. Unfortunately neither of us had any statistical base to make the claim, just a gut feeling that what we're watching is far below par.
But then I got really frustrated after the Arizona at Washington game - that was one of the worst reffed games I'd seen. So last week I started looking for stats and found KenPom's referee ratings. He basically rates refs by seeing how often they're reffing the best games in basketball. It's not a perfect system but it makes some sense.
I wanted to see how each conference stacked up so I looked at only conference games. Also, I only included the power six and a single mid major conference for comparison because this isn't my job.
I took KenPom's top 50 refs of each year and accumulated every game they reffed over the last three seasons (season to date to Feb 5th and the previous two years). Then I tallied how many times they refereed each conference - that's the pool. Finally, I tallied the total number of games each conference employed a top 50 ref and produced a percentage of top 50 presence for each conference. That's top ref presence.
It's not an exact measure, not nearly, but could it provide some perspective? See below:
Winners and Losers
Let's start with % share. The ACC and the B1G are the big winners here, each getting about 20% of the pool. The Big XII, Big East, and SEC each clock in the respectable mid-low teens... and then there's the Pac-12. The Pac-12 is in the single digits along with our mid-major for reference conference, the A-10.
Wait... what?
Not that there's anything wrong with the A-10, but as far as I can tell from public resources they make about a third of the revenue as the Pac-12.
Maybe the Pac-12 deserves it - we're the sixth worst conference in basketball, right?
Well let's compare ref rankings against KenPom's conference rankings and see if there are any correlations or curiosities...
The winner here is clearly the B1G, getting the most quality ref presences while performing near the bottom of the conference ranking. On the other hand... the Big XII is getting hosed as the three year best conference in basketball with only the fourth most quality ref presences.
Now I don't know if the KenPom ref rankings are "good" or if there is regional restrictions on refs and how far they travel. Maybe the Big XII aren't getting their due because their arenas aren't near airport hubs (I have no idea if this is true but I do know that Texas Tech is in Lubbock). Maybe the distance between Pac-12 schools and then the further distance between the Pac-12 and other conferences precludes big game refs from working our games. There's a whole basket of stuff that I don't know, and I don't even know how big the basket is.
What I do know is that the Pac-12 has the worst goddamn refs of the power six conferences and Lute Olson is as right as his hair is white.
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
That quote from Lute says March 1982. He was at Iowa then.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.zonagrad wrote:That quote from Lute says March 1982. He was at Iowa then.
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Awesome analysis! Are you able to see the rate at which Arizona received these top 50 refs compared to the rates for other Pac12 schools? I'm even more interested in that.
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
I still can't decide which perversion of officiating was worse: the loss at Washington or the one-point win at home over Utah.
One was more than blatant enough. To follow it up with the other was just so egregious, it was like Larry Scott was saying, "That's right, more of that."
One was more than blatant enough. To follow it up with the other was just so egregious, it was like Larry Scott was saying, "That's right, more of that."
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Nice work
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Damn right. Thanks, Yo. Ayton's uncalled muggings are wearing me down. This independent out of sample test answers my bias' need for confirmation.PHXCATS wrote:Nice work
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
He is getting hit and hacked but he needs to not worry about it and stop complaining go the refs. Let the coaches deal with it. Just play your gamedovecanyoncat wrote:Damn right. Thanks, Yo. Ayton's uncalled muggings are wearing me down. This independent out of sample test answers my bias' need for confirmation.PHXCATS wrote:Nice work
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
YoDeFoe wrote:Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.zonagrad wrote:That quote from Lute says March 1982. He was at Iowa then.
I wonder how Lute felt about Pac 10 officiating when he joined the conference after bashing Big 10 refs. The Pac has had its share of prima donnas: Booker Turner, Dave Libby, Richie Ballesteros to name a few.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
All our guys, let alone the bigs, complain without hesitation, even Dusan is more vociferous of late. Ayton will get past it as he gets past the freshman wall alluded to in other posts. It's just currently the most glaring aspect of Pac-12 ref culture that burdens U of A fans at this point. We know things will change when the Dance begins, but until then it weighs on our team's conference performance and the remaining games that impact our seeding.PHXCATS wrote:He is getting hit and hacked but he needs to not worry about it and stop complaining go the refs. Let the coaches deal with it. Just play your gamedovecanyoncat wrote:Damn right. Thanks, Yo. Ayton's uncalled muggings are wearing me down. This independent out of sample test answers my bias' need for confirmation.PHXCATS wrote:Nice work
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
I love Dusan’s seven foot high finger wag at the refs.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
The metric I'd like to see measured is foul concentration. For my money, the most frustrating part about Pac reffing is the dead spots where you can basically whip out a billy club and beat Ayton with it and not get whistled.
Then, to balance things out, the refs will start blowing the whistle on every possession. Those abrupt shifts in foul calls are the most frustrating part of Pac reffing. As long as the bad calls are even, I can handle some blown calls. The massive shifting of standards is the part that makes me want to throw things at the floor/tv.
Then, to balance things out, the refs will start blowing the whistle on every possession. Those abrupt shifts in foul calls are the most frustrating part of Pac reffing. As long as the bad calls are even, I can handle some blown calls. The massive shifting of standards is the part that makes me want to throw things at the floor/tv.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
YoDeFoe wrote:I love Dusan’s seven foot high finger wag at the refs.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
You a very bad man!!!
Arizona State might have the most surprisingly anemic history in men's basketball of any program that you might think is better than it is.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Relevant bump for cheerleader ejection. Dumbest thing I've ever seen.
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
The one burning question I have about our win over the scum is just how in the Holy Hell did Rat Boy not get a T??
What does he have to do....................Yell "He touched the ball??"
What does he have to do....................Yell "He touched the ball??"
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Spitting. That's what gets you the Tdmjcat wrote:The one burning question I have about our win over the scum is just how in the Holy Hell did Rat Boy not get a T??
What does he have to do....................Yell "He touched the ball??"
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
I was just about to make an entire thread about this.prh wrote:Relevant bump for cheerleader ejection. Dumbest thing I've ever seen.
What in the world could that cheerleader have said to warrant being ejected?
It's long past time to bring this back to the court, let's do it with a small update:
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
It was nice to have a game where the players determined the outcome, not the refs.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Hurley thinks this was a game of strip poker, and he was losing. I thought for a minute he was going to take off his shirt while screaming like a 4 year old. What a mental case. Reminds me of what's-his-face on the current Duke team throwing a tantrum. Next game Hurley may get called for tripping too.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
What's with the Mick Jagger hands on the hips pose?
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
He's trying to get his wee wee on an album cover in suit pants that don't fit right
Arizona State might have the most surprisingly anemic history in men's basketball of any program that you might think is better than it is.
-Norlander.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
from suck to blow
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... throw-line" target="_blank
Ejected for yelling into his megaphone?????
And the curtain of distraction is OK???
My God, PAC12 refs are the biggest joke in college basketball.
Ejected for yelling into his megaphone?????
And the curtain of distraction is OK???
My God, PAC12 refs are the biggest joke in college basketball.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
dmjcat wrote:http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... throw-line
Ejected for yelling into his megaphone?????
And the curtain of distraction is OK???
My God, PAC12 refs are the biggest joke in college basketball.
Yeah but, they don't use a megaphone, they just pump it out of there ass
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
I will credit the refs for not giving Baby Hurley a T. Cause fuck him and how bad he wanted to make it about that.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
You gotta admit it's sort of strange with the constant tirades Hurley was giving the refs throughout the game they picked on a lowly Cheerleader yelling through a megaphone.
Last edited by EastCoastCat on Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
EastCoastCat wrote:You gotta admit it's sort of strange with the constant tirades Hurley was giving the refs throughout the game they picked on a lowly Cheerleader yelling through a megaphone.
He also used no profanity, and the ref said he was yelling players names. Odd.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
I heard he was given a warning. Not a huge deal what he did but it is the rule for Cheerleaders so he has g9 follow or not be on the courtEastCoastCat wrote:You gotta admit it's sort of strange with the constant tirades Hurley was giving the refs throughout the game they picked on a lowly Cheerleader yelling through a megaphone.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
I wonder what Hurley said to get the bench warning. Dusan was the one that called it to the attention of the refs, and pointed out what Hurley was doing. Was wondering if i ws the on;y one to see that
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Instant legend status for the cheerleaderPieceOfMeat wrote:I was just about to make an entire thread about this.prh wrote:Relevant bump for cheerleader ejection. Dumbest thing I've ever seen.
What in the world could that cheerleader have said to warrant being ejected?
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
If he would have said "Fuck ASU" then I would have given him legend status...
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I fly like a hawk, or better yet an eagle--a seagull. I sniff suckers out like a beagle...My ego is off and running and gone, Cause I'm about the best and if you diss than that's wrong
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
I've been on that floor and heard far worse from ASU cheerleaders.dmjcat wrote:http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... throw-line
Ejected for yelling into his megaphone?????
And the curtain of distraction is OK???
My God, PAC12 refs are the biggest joke in college basketball.
But yeah...
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
A Cheerleader got ejected from a game. If you can tell me the last time that has happened then you may have a point, but since i can't recall it ever happening. Legend status...it's even a story on the front page of ESPNEastCoastCat wrote:If he would have said "Fuck ASU" then I would have given him legend status...
Last edited by whatisee on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
30-20 run post-ejection.
He should be on the next intro video with the last "We are Arizona"...
He should be on the next intro video with the last "We are Arizona"...
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Biggest joke for years.dmjcat wrote:http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... throw-line
Ejected for yelling into his megaphone?????
And the curtain of distraction is OK???
My God, PAC12 refs are the biggest joke in college basketball.
longtime pac12 official. I wonder, in this joke-of-a-ref's career, how many cheerleaders he's tossed for saying "not today [player's first name]" during a break in play such as waiting for the player to be given the ball to shoot a free throw.longtime Pac-12 official Randy McCall.
the cheerleader didn't do this during game action, it was during a break in play.
Oh and is anyone surprised at the person siding with the joke-of-a-ref?
yeah, that's totally in character for machina. I bet machina even clapped whole-heartedly when our cheerleader was ejected for, as the official states "He was yelling, using the [megaphone] to call out people by name, which is not acceptable,"PHXCATS wrote: I heard he was given a warning. Not a huge deal what he did but it is the rule for Cheerleaders so he has g9 follow or not be on the court
Good job, machina, pac12 refs always need a lackey.
It's long past time to bring this back to the court, let's do it with a small update:
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
I heard ASU cheerleaders telling Damon specific things about his anatomy and what he liked to do to others with similar anatomy in 1994. Through a megaphone. At the line.PieceOfMeat wrote:
Good job, machina, pac12 refs always need a lackey.
Even I was shocked that time. And I don't shock easy.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Yeah, definitely comparable to : "Not today Remy"EVCat wrote: I heard ASU cheerleaders telling Damon specific things about his anatomy and what he liked to do to others with similar anatomy in 1994. Through a megaphone. At the line.
Even I was shocked that time. And I don't shock easy.
It's long past time to bring this back to the court, let's do it with a small update:
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
It helped UA so it was a good thing and yeah follow the rules if you are on the court. Not hard.PieceOfMeat wrote:Biggest joke for years.dmjcat wrote:http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... throw-line
Ejected for yelling into his megaphone?????
And the curtain of distraction is OK???
My God, PAC12 refs are the biggest joke in college basketball.longtime pac12 official. I wonder, in this joke-of-a-ref's career, how many cheerleaders he's tossed for saying "not today [player's first name]" during a break in play such as waiting for the player to be given the ball to shoot a free throw.longtime Pac-12 official Randy McCall.
the cheerleader didn't do this during game action, it was during a break in play.
Oh and is anyone surprised at the person siding with the joke-of-a-ref?yeah, that's totally in character for machina. I bet machina even clapped whole-heartedly when our cheerleader was ejected for, as the official states "He was yelling, using the [megaphone] to call out people by name, which is not acceptable,"PHXCATS wrote: I heard he was given a warning. Not a huge deal what he did but it is the rule for Cheerleaders so he has g9 follow or not be on the court
Good job, machina, pac12 refs always need a lackey.
Last edited by PHXCATS on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
They should have been ejected at the time clearly.EVCat wrote:I heard ASU cheerleaders telling Damon specific things about his anatomy and what he liked to do to others with similar anatomy in 1994. Through a megaphone. At the line.PieceOfMeat wrote:
Good job, machina, pac12 refs always need a lackey.
Even I was shocked that time. And I don't shock easy.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Seems he was following the rules. What you actually mean with this statement is: "do what those in power tell you to do. not hard".PHXCATS wrote:It helped UA do it was a good thing and yeah follow the rules if you are on the court. Not hard.
Which is totally in line with your character.
PHXCATS wrote:boy
It's long past time to bring this back to the court, let's do it with a small update:
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
The worst part of the college game is the offensive foul calls. As long as referees continue to fall for the acting and flopping, selling the call is still going to be taught and coached.
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
I thought we were in for a good reffed game when they didn't fall for two early Duke flops...Frybry02 wrote:The worst part of the college game is the offensive foul calls. As long as referees continue to fall for the acting and flopping, selling the call is still going to be taught and coached.
Hurley was berating the official who just kept saying "calm down" then explained why Hurley was full of shit.
It seemed to be a good sign. Then an official runs in from Fountain Hills to call a 3rd foul on a charge on PJC, with a befuddled ref standing right there, 3 feet from the scene, and I gave up hope of the elusive "well-officiated game in the PAC".
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
I think it's more about the ref having rabbit ears and the constant little man syndrome Pac refs have in needing to flex on people to make them respect their authority.PHXCATS wrote:I heard he was given a warning. Not a huge deal what he did but it is the rule for Cheerleaders so he has g9 follow or not be on the courtEastCoastCat wrote:You gotta admit it's sort of strange with the constant tirades Hurley was giving the refs throughout the game they picked on a lowly Cheerleader yelling through a megaphone.
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Perhaps. Maybe even very likely. But it still is a rule not to call players out in the megaphone and not to use it during free throws and the guy did both although the comment was not bad. If everyone is speeding and you get pulled over by the police, it sucks but you were speeding so you technically deserve it.Spaceman Spiff wrote:I think it's more about the ref having rabbit ears and the constant little man syndrome Pac refs have in needing to flex on people to make them respect their authority.PHXCATS wrote:I heard he was given a warning. Not a huge deal what he did but it is the rule for Cheerleaders so he has g9 follow or not be on the courtEastCoastCat wrote:You gotta admit it's sort of strange with the constant tirades Hurley was giving the refs throughout the game they picked on a lowly Cheerleader yelling through a megaphone.
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Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Comparing Pac refs to a cop who pulls over one guy going 68 in a 65 despite a line of cars doing the same speed is actually a perfect comparison.PHXCATS wrote:Perhaps. Maybe even very likely. But it still is a rule not to call players out in the megaphone and not to use it during free throws and the guy did both although the comment was not bad. If everyone is speeding and you get pulled over by the police, it sucks but you were speeding so you technically deserve it.Spaceman Spiff wrote:I think it's more about the ref having rabbit ears and the constant little man syndrome Pac refs have in needing to flex on people to make them respect their authority.PHXCATS wrote:I heard he was given a warning. Not a huge deal what he did but it is the rule for Cheerleaders so he has g9 follow or not be on the courtEastCoastCat wrote:You gotta admit it's sort of strange with the constant tirades Hurley was giving the refs throughout the game they picked on a lowly Cheerleader yelling through a megaphone.
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
The offensive foul on Ayton against holder was a travesty. holder went in like a timid little bitch and was Not interested in defending whatsoever. He was going to flop no matter what happened.EVCat wrote:I thought we were in for a good reffed game when they didn't fall for two early Duke flops...Frybry02 wrote:The worst part of the college game is the offensive foul calls. As long as referees continue to fall for the acting and flopping, selling the call is still going to be taught and coached.
Hurley was berating the official who just kept saying "calm down" then explained why Hurley was full of shit.
It seemed to be a good sign. Then an official runs in from Fountain Hills to call a 3rd foul on a charge on PJC, with a befuddled ref standing right there, 3 feet from the scene, and I gave up hope of the elusive "well-officiated game in the PAC".
My favorite is always how PJC seems to bull over everyone.
Re: Refs are Bad are Ours are the Worst
Can we get tonight's refs the rest of the way?