Sean Miller

[U.P. Zona Fan]

Teams that occasionally use a zone: Michigan, Kansas, Duke.

And then there’s Syracuse who only uses a zone.

I get the whole “do what we do” thing, but it’s hard to sit idly by, year after year, and watch teams have success in the tourney with zone defense while AZ approaches 20 years without a FF.

Well, we did have a packline team in the final four too.

For CatFan1Mil, so far there are recorded statements discussing paying players, spreadsheets detailing how players got paid and emails discussing paying players. You have a public statement from the FBI that 150k is a going rate. Numerous FBI probe players missed games, a season for Brian Bowen. What level of proof would you consider sufficient?

Well first of all the amount of "systemic" needs to be greatly downgraded...Miller said that THE ONE TIME SOMEONE OFFERED MONEY...

Think about THAT...here's a coach at a major basketball school saying that in his experience "play-for-money" has only happened to him once...

Now here's where your bias will manifest, you either believe Miller and believe he is telling the truth or you believe a different narrative based on hearsay and innuendo...

To be clear I have never maintained that the problem does not exist, what I have proposed is that it is NOT systemic and NOT everyone does it, as a matter of fact i am suggesting it is the outlier and happens very rarely.

There are semi-reliable people who claim bigfoot is real, hell Les Stroud has now devoted his career to finding bigfoot and there is more than one series on television devoted to this mystery, but so far the evidence is pretty much in the same category for me as the basketball pay-for-players evidence, it is all speculation until a guilty plea is entered in by a judge and so far both bigfoot and the national college basketball scene has yet to hear the judges gavel decalre that either widespread corruption in buying players or bigfoot is real.

And may I add that there is the likelihood that the one time Miller was approached about money for a player, it was not legit and potentially an attempt to bring him down in the FBI investigation. So that would make it zero real times and one attempt at entrapment.

Also if any one wants to pay me a bazillion dollars and follow me on my quest for the loch Ness monster I will go to Scotland for a couple of years.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Teams that occasionally use a zone: Michigan, Kansas, Duke.

And then there’s Syracuse who only uses a zone.

I get the whole “do what we do” thing, but it’s hard to sit idly by, year after year, and watch teams have success in the tourney with zone defense while AZ approaches 20 years without a FF.

Well, we did have a packline team in the final four too.

For CatFan1Mil, so far there are recorded statements discussing paying players, spreadsheets detailing how players got paid and emails discussing paying players. You have a public statement from the FBI that 150k is a going rate. Numerous FBI probe players missed games, a season for Brian Bowen. What level of proof would you consider sufficient?

Well first of all the amount of "systemic" needs to be greatly downgraded...Miller said that THE ONE TIME SOMEONE OFFERED MONEY...

Think about THAT...here's a coach at a major basketball school saying that in his experience "play-for-money" has only happened to him once...

Now here's where your bias will manifest, you either believe Miller and believe he is telling the truth or you believe a different narrative based on hearsay and innuendo...

To be clear I have never maintained that the problem does not exist, what I have proposed is that it is NOT systemic and NOT everyone does it, as a matter of fact i am suggesting it is the outlier and happens very rarely.

There are semi-reliable people who claim bigfoot is real, hell Les Stroud has now devoted his career to finding bigfoot and there is more than one series on television devoted to this mystery, but so far the evidence is pretty much in the same category for me as the basketball pay-for-players evidence, it is all speculation until a guilty plea is entered in by a judge and so far both bigfoot and the national college basketball scene has yet to hear the judges gavel decalre that either widespread corruption in buying players or bigfoot is real.

You thought Miller was going to go off on how many Arizona players got paid?

Seriously, read the FBI taps, emails and spreadsheets. Here is how it emerges. The program(s) build deniability because the money comes from outside sources like ASM or a shoe company.

The entire reason for middlemen is so that you have someone to take the fall if it goes bad.

[CatFanOneMil]

Teams that occasionally use a zone: Michigan, Kansas, Duke.

And then there’s Syracuse who only uses a zone.

I get the whole “do what we do” thing, but it’s hard to sit idly by, year after year, and watch teams have success in the tourney with zone defense while AZ approaches 20 years without a FF.

Well, we did have a packline team in the final four too.

For CatFan1Mil, so far there are recorded statements discussing paying players, spreadsheets detailing how players got paid and emails discussing paying players. You have a public statement from the FBI that 150k is a going rate. Numerous FBI probe players missed games, a season for Brian Bowen. What level of proof would you consider sufficient?

Well first of all the amount of "systemic" needs to be greatly downgraded...Miller said that THE ONE TIME SOMEONE OFFERED MONEY...

Think about THAT...here's a coach at a major basketball school saying that in his experience "play-for-money" has only happened to him once...

Now here's where your bias will manifest, you either believe Miller and believe he is telling the truth or you believe a different narrative based on hearsay and innuendo...

To be clear I have never maintained that the problem does not exist, what I have proposed is that it is NOT systemic and NOT everyone does it, as a matter of fact i am suggesting it is the outlier and happens very rarely.

There are semi-reliable people who claim bigfoot is real, hell Les Stroud has now devoted his career to finding bigfoot and there is more than one series on television devoted to this mystery, but so far the evidence is pretty much in the same category for me as the basketball pay-for-players evidence, it is all speculation until a guilty plea is entered in by a judge and so far both bigfoot and the national college basketball scene has yet to hear the judges gavel decalre that either widespread corruption in buying players or bigfoot is real.

You thought Miller was going to go off on how many Arizona players got paid?

Seriously, read the FBI taps, emails and spreadsheets. Here is how it emerges. The program(s) build deniability because the money comes from outside sources like ASM or a shoe company.

The entire reason for middlemen is so that you have someone to take the fall if it goes bad.

ORRRRRR...there isn't a systemic problem...either reading of the information available is reasonable...EXCEPT one reading requires some massive assumptions based on a cultural myth that has yet to find actual proof...

IF the problem is as systemic (EVERYONE PAYS FOR PLAYERS, EVEN MARK FEW AND SISTER JEAN) as the public is pretending, then where are all the middlemen confessing or being charged?

We still only have a handful out of 341 programs...

SYSTEMIC means it is a virus corrupting the entire system.

So far we have 10 guys arrested and only 4 assistant coaches...and even the Chris Dawkins yahoo list that names names is not actual receipts its a hand written ledger by a guy who is known for cheating and fraudulently using other peoples credit cards...

So AT BEST we might have evidence of 4 "middlemen"...still way below systemic in any data crunching scheme...and if you believe ANY of the head coaches we have ZERO middlemen...

I have to look at this under the lens of fair reading...do I believe Miller or don't I?

For me to accuse him of lying I would need to believe that he is dirty and throwing Book under the bus and that Book would have turned on him (same applies for other assistant coaches) which means SOME of the four assistant coaches would be turning a cooperating with the feds...

So far not one of the assistant coaches has "turned" and is cooperating...

Systemic would have given me more evidence...as it stands the narrative suggests that yes the shoe companies/agents offer illegal money and SOME are dumb enough to take it...but the idea that we bought Ayton for 100k and his family outsmarted the FBI and hid the money in spite of being interviewed by both the feds and the UA and the NCAA not finding a thing is still in the realm of bigfoot...there is not any credible evidence in spite of professional investigators looking for it.

[Spaceman Spiff]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

[EVCat]

There's also two completely different systems in play here.

The "Agent pays player to go to certain school, gets clients in return" is not the traditional pay to play model.

Boosters getting the money to players with hands out, either directly in the old days with a "bag man", or through runners/AAU reps is the more traditional model. And anyone who wants money is getting money if the boosters at a school want him bad enough and are approached.

The Andy Miller/Christian Dawkins gambit is a way, but not the only or traditional way. Coaches do not, normally, get involved with this. They stay arms-length. This particular gambit is a little more corrosive because the execution requires trusted advisors to steer players. A player getting paid with money that is out of some rich guy's pocket is just a player getting paid. This deal involves bribery, and is far more corrosive to the player/coach model, and is blatantly exploitative and usurping of the market. That would be why the FBI would care about this. You have state officials accepting bribes to push players to certain financial advisors and agents that will be potentially handling millions of dollars for the duped client. That is SO much different than getting some money to play college ball for moms and so you have a nice ride.

I think agents should be allowed to sign clients in college basketball. But it cannot be through confidential steering. So Player A kind of knows the game when Andy Miller places him at School X...but then you have other players at School X being pushed by coaches that were paid to use their position as mentors to his financial team and agency. That is fucked up and worthy of being nipped in the bud.

[prh]

“Jay Wright was the guy who couldn’t win the big ones, and now he might win 2 titles in 3 years”

I still think he is a good career trajectory comp for Miller. Now Sean just need the tweaks and ensuing success

[Beachcat97]

“Jay Wright was the guy who couldn’t win the big ones, and now he might win 2 titles in 3 years”

I still think he is a good career trajectory comp for Miller. Now just need the tweaks and ensuing success

Wright may be in a better spot than anyone right now. He's young, has shown he doesn't need 5-stars to reach the FF, has done an outstanding job bringing in guys that fit his system, and is seemingly liked by everyone. He just needs to stay the course. He'd make a mistake by now turning his attention to the one-and-done crowd, imo.

[CatFanOneMil]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

"Payments to players isn't illegal" Then what the fuck are we talking about it for?

20 programs having players repay under $250...? If I recall Pinder had to do a compliance video because of some violation of NCAA rules, if you are suggesting all these players were paid to play then you have to include Pinder in that group and seriously??? IIRC not one of the players who repaid the $ ever suggested they were paid to play, these were all benefits that exceeded NCAA rules and yet did not keep any of the players from being ineligible once the offending $ baseline was restored.

As far as Dawkins and Jacksons mom, again there is denial and we don't really have any evidence except the Dawkins stuff, emails and otherwise whom I do not regard as credible at this point...Dawkins has plenty of motive to lie, much like whoever leaked the inaccurate Sean Miller report.

[Spaceman Spiff]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

"Payments to players isn't illegal" Then what the fuck are we talking about it for?

20 programs having players repay under $250...? If I recall Pinder had to do a compliance video because of some violation of NCAA rules, if you are suggesting all these players were paid to play then you have to include Pinder in that group and seriously??? IIRC not one of the players who repaid the $ ever suggested they were paid to play, these were all benefits that exceeded NCAA rules and yet did not keep any of the players from being ineligible once the offending $ baseline was restored.

As far as Dawkins and Jacksons mom, again there is denial and we don't really have any evidence except the Dawkins stuff, emails and otherwise whom I do not regard as credible at this point...Dawkins has plenty of motive to lie, much like whoever leaked the inaccurate Sean Miller report.

The FBI theory is bribery of public officials, i.e., assistant coaches. There's a reason why the FBI has never charged agents directly paying players, even when people admit it.

The players paying to restore eligibility sort of lends corroboration that Dawkins wasn't making it up.

Look, I think we have to agree to disagree, because I see emails, wire statements, spreadsheets and such as evidence. They are evidence. If you don't believe them, I won't force you, but there is corroboration.

[PHXCATS]

“Jay Wright was the guy who couldn’t win the big ones, and now he might win 2 titles in 3 years”

I still think he is a good career trajectory comp for Miller. Now just need the tweaks and ensuing success

This. He is a good coach and can recruit but will be really tested this summer. But adjustments are necessary. If coach K is willing to adjust Miller better or he will and should be shown the door

[Spaceman Spiff]

“Jay Wright was the guy who couldn’t win the big ones, and now he might win 2 titles in 3 years”

I still think he is a good career trajectory comp for Miller. Now just need the tweaks and ensuing success

Wright may be in a better spot than anyone right now. He's young, has shown he doesn't need 5-stars to reach the FF, has done an outstanding job bringing in guys that fit his system, and is seemingly liked by everyone. He just needs to stay the course. He'd make a mistake by now turning his attention to the one-and-done crowd, imo.

Actually, I think Wright has had Nova's recruiting on the upswing and that has helped. Brunson was a big time prosect and has really been a rock for their recent success.

Spellman was also a 5 star, and that's given a really solid base for this year's team. Wright had a couple other highly ranked kids (Hart, Archidiacono, Ochefu were all top 50).

[PHXCATS]

“Jay Wright was the guy who couldn’t win the big ones, and now he might win 2 titles in 3 years”

I still think he is a good career trajectory comp for Miller. Now just need the tweaks and ensuing success

Wright may be in a better spot than anyone right now. He's young, has shown he doesn't need 5-stars to reach the FF, has done an outstanding job bringing in guys that fit his system, and is seemingly liked by everyone. He just needs to stay the course. He'd make a mistake by now turning his attention to the one-and-done crowd, imo.

Actually, I think Wright has had Nova's recruiting on the upswing and that has helped. Brunson was a big time prosect and has really been a rock for their recent success.

Spellman was also a 5 star, and that's given a really solid base for this year's team. Wright had a couple other highly ranked kids (Hart, Archidiacono, Ochefu were all top 50).

Give me a top 25 class for three years who play well together and are a good team vs three top 5 classes in a row any day

[az91]

“Jay Wright was the guy who couldn’t win the big ones, and now he might win 2 titles in 3 years”

I still think he is a good career trajectory comp for Miller. Now just need the tweaks and ensuing success

This. He is a good coach and can recruit but will be really tested this summer. But adjustments are necessary. If coach K is willing to adjust Miller better or he will and should be shown the door

If 2018-19 turns out to be a disaster of a year, is Miller shown the door?

[Newportcat]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

"Payments to players isn't illegal" Then what the fuck are we talking about it for?

20 programs having players repay under $250...? If I recall Pinder had to do a compliance video because of some violation of NCAA rules, if you are suggesting all these players were paid to play then you have to include Pinder in that group and seriously??? IIRC not one of the players who repaid the $ ever suggested they were paid to play, these were all benefits that exceeded NCAA rules and yet did not keep any of the players from being ineligible once the offending $ baseline was restored.

As far as Dawkins and Jacksons mom, again there is denial and we don't really have any evidence except the Dawkins stuff, emails and otherwise whom I do not regard as credible at this point...Dawkins has plenty of motive to lie, much like whoever leaked the inaccurate Sean Miller report.

The FBI theory is bribery of public officials, i.e., assistant coaches. There's a reason why the FBI has never charged agents directly paying players, even when people admit it.

The players paying to restore eligibility sort of lends corroboration that Dawkins wasn't making it up.

Look, I think we have to agree to disagree, because I see emails, wire statements, spreadsheets and such as evidence. They are evidence. If you don't believe them, I won't force you, but there is corroboration.

I would stop wasting your time as it’s like arguing with Kryie Irving on why the Earth is round

You are 1000% right in your assessments here without any room to see otherwise

[PHXCATS]

“Jay Wright was the guy who couldn’t win the big ones, and now he might win 2 titles in 3 years”

I still think he is a good career trajectory comp for Miller. Now just need the tweaks and ensuing success

This. He is a good coach and can recruit but will be really tested this summer. But adjustments are necessary. If coach K is willing to adjust Miller better or he will and should be shown the door

If 2018-19 turns out to be a disaster of a year, is Miller shown the door?

I have no info on this at all, it is just an observation and maybe reading into things too much, but I dont think Heeke and Miller like each other that much.

I would not be surprised if Miller is gone next year if things arent looking up

[Chicat]

“Jay Wright was the guy who couldn’t win the big ones, and now he might win 2 titles in 3 years”

I still think he is a good career trajectory comp for Miller. Now just need the tweaks and ensuing success

This. He is a good coach and can recruit but will be really tested this summer. But adjustments are necessary. If coach K is willing to adjust Miller better or he will and should be shown the door

If 2018-19 turns out to be a disaster of a year, is Miller shown the door?

I have no info on this at all, it is just an observation and maybe reading into things too much, but I dont think Heeke and Miller like each other that much.

I would not be surprised if Miller is gone next year if things arent looking up

I agree.....

You have no info on this at all.

[Newportcat]

“Jay Wright was the guy who couldn’t win the big ones, and now he might win 2 titles in 3 years”

I still think he is a good career trajectory comp for Miller. Now just need the tweaks and ensuing success

This. He is a good coach and can recruit but will be really tested this summer. But adjustments are necessary. If coach K is willing to adjust Miller better or he will and should be shown the door

If 2018-19 turns out to be a disaster of a year, is Miller shown the door?

I have no info on this at all, it is just an observation and maybe reading into things too much, but I dont think Heeke and Miller like each other that much.

I would not be surprised if Miller is gone next year if things arent looking up

I have not heard that Heeke and Miller do not like each other that much and I typically hear these sort of things. Could be completely wrong but have not heard it.

[Spaceman Spiff]

“Jay Wright was the guy who couldn’t win the big ones, and now he might win 2 titles in 3 years”

I still think he is a good career trajectory comp for Miller. Now just need the tweaks and ensuing success

This. He is a good coach and can recruit but will be really tested this summer. But adjustments are necessary. If coach K is willing to adjust Miller better or he will and should be shown the door

If 2018-19 turns out to be a disaster of a year, is Miller shown the door?

I have no info on this at all, it is just an observation and maybe reading into things too much, but I dont think Heeke and Miller like each other that much.

I would not be surprised if Miller is gone next year if things arent looking up

It seems like the opposite from the ESPN situation. If Miller was persona non grata, that's a perfect time to drop him.

[TheCat]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

Are you just an idiot or can't read? You want to show me a charge of bribery of a public offical (do you even know what that means) in any of the FBI charges? What they basically said is these assistants were ripping off public institution that got more that $10K in public money by paying players that would make them ineligible. Hence they have no value to the university. There is no bribery.
You obviously did not read the FBI charges. What is Dawkin's motivation (hint it is in the documents)? Dawkin's was a two bit hustler that ripped off everyone he came in contact with. He was fired for charging his UBER car trips on a clients credit card at his previous job for godsake. If you read the FBI documents he was given 25K for a players father and showed up with $19.5 K. Where did the other $5.5K go.....DO you understand Dawkins motivation now or do you just want to make shit up in your own mind.

Oh and one last thing....show me a sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it....just link away.

[TheCat]

“Jay Wright was the guy who couldn’t win the big ones, and now he might win 2 titles in 3 years”

I still think he is a good career trajectory comp for Miller. Now just need the tweaks and ensuing success

This. He is a good coach and can recruit but will be really tested this summer. But adjustments are necessary. If coach K is willing to adjust Miller better or he will and should be shown the door

If 2018-19 turns out to be a disaster of a year, is Miller shown the door?

I have no info on this at all, it is just an observation and maybe reading into things too much, but I dont think Heeke and Miller like each other that much.

I would not be surprised if Miller is gone next year if things arent looking up

It seems like the opposite from the ESPN situation. If Miller was persona non grata, that's a perfect time to drop him.

It is opposite of ESPN. Someone is telling the truth.

[Spaceman Spiff]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

Are you just an idiot or can't read? You want to show me a charge of bribery of a public offical (do you even know what that means) in any of the FBI charges? What they basically said is these assistants were ripping off public institution that got more that $10K in public money by paying players that would make them ineligible. Hence they have no value to the university. There is no bribery.
You obviously did not read the FBI charges. What is Dawkin's motivation (hint it is in the documents)? Dawkin's was a two bit hustler that ripped off everyone he came in contact with. He was fired for charging his UBER car trips on a clients credit card at his previous job for godsake. If you read the FBI documents he was given 25K for a players father and showed up with $19.5 K. Where did the other $5.5K go.....DO you understand Dawkins motivation now or do you just want to make shit up in your own mind.

Oh and one last thing....show me a sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it....just link away.

Well, I am an idiot.

Read footnote 1 of the FBI complaint. It specifically identifies the ONLY basis for charging coaches as receipt of bribes based on their status as public officials.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/us ... es-college" target="_blank

It is also referenced in this release:

"In the first scheme (the “Coach Bribery Scheme”), athlete advisors – including financial advisors and business managers, among others – allegedly paid bribes to assistant and associate head basketball coaches at NCAA Division I universities, and sometimes directly to student-athletes at those universities, facilitated by the coaches.  In exchange for the bribes, the coaches agreed to pressure and exert influence over student-athletes under their control to retain the services of the bribe-payors once the athletes entered the National Basketball Association (“NBA”)."

Why aren't more coaches getting charged? The theory is they're participating in the steering bribery scheme. The underlying issue of paying players is not causing coaches to go down. That portion of the investigation is referred to as the second scheme in the link above.

[Newportcat]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

Are you just an idiot or can't read? You want to show me a charge of bribery of a public offical (do you even know what that means) in any of the FBI charges? What they basically said is these assistants were ripping off public institution that got more that $10K in public money by paying players that would make them ineligible. Hence they have no value to the university. There is no bribery.
You obviously did not read the FBI charges. What is Dawkin's motivation (hint it is in the documents)? Dawkin's was a two bit hustler that ripped off everyone he came in contact with. He was fired for charging his UBER car trips on a clients credit card at his previous job for godsake. If you read the FBI documents he was given 25K for a players father and showed up with $19.5 K. Where did the other $5.5K go.....DO you understand Dawkins motivation now or do you just want to make shit up in your own mind.

Oh and one last thing....show me a sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it....just link away.

Yeah Spiff please produce that sreadsheet...oh wait because you can't because there is definitely no sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it...what an idiot

Something that really bugs me. If you are going to call someone an Idiot or that they can't read (which since they are posting on a message board is HIGHLY unlikely) please at least get all your spelling right. Just one of my pet peeves in message board life

[Spaceman Spiff]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

Are you just an idiot or can't read? You want to show me a charge of bribery of a public offical (do you even know what that means) in any of the FBI charges? What they basically said is these assistants were ripping off public institution that got more that $10K in public money by paying players that would make them ineligible. Hence they have no value to the university. There is no bribery.
You obviously did not read the FBI charges. What is Dawkin's motivation (hint it is in the documents)? Dawkin's was a two bit hustler that ripped off everyone he came in contact with. He was fired for charging his UBER car trips on a clients credit card at his previous job for godsake. If you read the FBI documents he was given 25K for a players father and showed up with $19.5 K. Where did the other $5.5K go.....DO you understand Dawkins motivation now or do you just want to make shit up in your own mind.

Oh and one last thing....show me a sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it....just link away.

Yeah Spiff please produce that sreadsheet...oh wait because you can't because there is definitely no sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it...what an idiot

Something that really bugs me. If you are going to call someone an Idiot or that they can't read (which since they are posting on a message board is HIGHLY unlikely) please at least get all your spelling right. Just one of my pet peeves in message board life

The possessive of Dawkin bugged me the most.

If he reads the actual complaint vs Evans and Book, the first charge is literally Conspiracy to Commit Bribery and the second involves bribery of a public official. He's just wrong. The PDF Adocs are in my link above if anyone doesn't believe my illiterate butt.

[Newportcat]

This is the image I think an opposing fan would have coming on this message board to see some Arizona fans have gotten to the point where they think there really is no Basketball recruiting scandal and all this is made up like Big Foot

[azgreg]

See this shark?



This thread has jumped it.

[Spaceman Spiff]

See this shark?



This thread has jumped it.

It's the offseason.

[Newportcat]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

Are you just an idiot or can't read? You want to show me a charge of bribery of a public offical (do you even know what that means) in any of the FBI charges? What they basically said is these assistants were ripping off public institution that got more that $10K in public money by paying players that would make them ineligible. Hence they have no value to the university. There is no bribery.
You obviously did not read the FBI charges. What is Dawkin's motivation (hint it is in the documents)? Dawkin's was a two bit hustler that ripped off everyone he came in contact with. He was fired for charging his UBER car trips on a clients credit card at his previous job for godsake. If you read the FBI documents he was given 25K for a players father and showed up with $19.5 K. Where did the other $5.5K go.....DO you understand Dawkins motivation now or do you just want to make shit up in your own mind.

Oh and one last thing....show me a sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it....just link away.

Yeah Spiff please produce that sreadsheet...oh wait because you can't because there is definitely no sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it...what an idiot

Something that really bugs me. If you are going to call someone an Idiot or that they can't read (which since they are posting on a message board is HIGHLY unlikely) please at least get all your spelling right. Just one of my pet peeves in message board life

The possessive of Dawkin bugged me the most.

If he reads the actual complaint vs Evans and Book, the first charge is literally Conspiracy to Commit Bribery and the second involves bribery of a public official. He's just wrong. The PDF Adocs are in my link above if anyone doesn't believe my illiterate butt.

So you were able to read that Dawkins was discussed above....

[Spaceman Spiff]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

Are you just an idiot or can't read? You want to show me a charge of bribery of a public offical (do you even know what that means) in any of the FBI charges? What they basically said is these assistants were ripping off public institution that got more that $10K in public money by paying players that would make them ineligible. Hence they have no value to the university. There is no bribery.
You obviously did not read the FBI charges. What is Dawkin's motivation (hint it is in the documents)? Dawkin's was a two bit hustler that ripped off everyone he came in contact with. He was fired for charging his UBER car trips on a clients credit card at his previous job for godsake. If you read the FBI documents he was given 25K for a players father and showed up with $19.5 K. Where did the other $5.5K go.....DO you understand Dawkins motivation now or do you just want to make shit up in your own mind.

Oh and one last thing....show me a sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it....just link away.

Yeah Spiff please produce that sreadsheet...oh wait because you can't because there is definitely no sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it...what an idiot

Something that really bugs me. If you are going to call someone an Idiot or that they can't read (which since they are posting on a message board is HIGHLY unlikely) please at least get all your spelling right. Just one of my pet peeves in message board life

The possessive of Dawkin bugged me the most.

If he reads the actual complaint vs Evans and Book, the first charge is literally Conspiracy to Commit Bribery and the second involves bribery of a public official. He's just wrong. The PDF Adocs are in my link above if anyone doesn't believe my illiterate butt.

So you were able to read that Dawkins was discussed above....

I had a smarter friend read it to me. To stay safe, I didn't ask him thoughts on the FBI investigation, just in case he realized my idiocy.

[TatetheGreat]

If Miller is totally clean and this is not a systemic issue, why didn't he turn in the agent who offered money for a recruit? I can't believe people are still this naive.

[azcat49]

The way I have always looked at it was that it has been the shoe companies who have corrupted college sports. They never payed kids through the universities but rather tried to influence them to attend the schools they sponsored with the hope that would lead to a post college NBA career and a shoe contract.

It wasn't until these companies got so greedy that they went to a few assistants in the hope these guys with influence could guide the Nike program kid to under,armour or vice versa.

Maybe to say the the whole fish stinks is not spot on buy this has gone on since AAU basketball was formed. I have no doubt Miller and the UofA never paid a kid but I also have no doubt UofA kids got paid

[Spaceman Spiff]

The way I have always looked at it was that it has been the shoe companies who have corrupted college sports. They never payed kids through the universities but rather tried to influence them to attend the schools they sponsored with the hope that would lead to a post college NBA career and a shoe contract.

It wasn't until these companies got so greedy that they went to a few assistants in the hope these guys with influence could guide the Nike program kid to under,armour or vice versa.

Maybe to say the the whole fish stinks is not spot on buy this has gone on since AAU basketball was formed. I have no doubt Miller and the UofA never paid a kid but I also have no doubt UofA kids got paid

I look at it like this. The open market would pay players a decent chunk of change. There's only so much you can constrain the regular market.

I don't see it as corrupting so much as regression to what is normal without the NCAA stepping in for a restriction. There's only so much you can constrain market force.

[Newportcat]

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/04/03/ ... -fortunes/" target="_blank

[azgreg]

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/04/03/ ... -fortunes/

That article is a bit depressing and I can't punch any holes in it.

[pc in NM]

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/04/03/ ... -fortunes/

That article is a bit depressing and I can't punch any holes in it.

But, it does "punch holes" in theories that try to place blame external to the program (shoe companies, agents, TV money, whatever)....

[CalStateTempe]

Over the past month things that made sense, arn’t making much sense anymore.

I wanna go back to pre-feb 23.

There’s my emo post for the week.

[CatHoops]

It's not like wright wouldn't take a 5star kid he just couldn't get many. I expect that to change .hell he's got quinnerly now and I'm sure more will go with the programs success.

[NYCat]

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/04/03/ ... -fortunes/

[UALoco]

Jon Wilner's article says all it needs to. I love the DWill, Aaron Gordon, Stanley Johnson, Lauri, and Deandre as much as the next Arizona fan, but I love going into the FiInal Four more. I also would like to cheer guys who come into their own at Arizona. I would be cool if Sean takes this sabbatical from 5 star talent and build a hard-nosed, scoring machine. Question is, does he have the flexibility to change up his schemes? Doubt it.

[elriop20]

Jon Wilner's article says all it needs to. I love the DWill, Aaron Gordon, Stanley Johnson, Lauri, and Deandre as much as the next Arizona fan, but I love going into the FiInal Four more. I also would like to cheer guys who come into their own at Arizona. I would be cool if Sean takes this sabbatical from 5 star talent and build a hard-nosed, scoring machine. Question is, does he have the flexibility to change up his schemes? Doubt it.

The problem isn't our one and done players, it's our 4 year players like PJC.

[DrWildcat]

Nova is made up of 4 and 5 star players (mostly 4 star) so its not like they don't have talent. The key is that their best players were guards. Guards win in March.

[Beachcat97]

Nova is made up of 4 and 5 star players (mostly 4 star) so its not like they don't have talent. The key is that their best players were guards. Guards win in March.

Not sure this is accurate. Was DiVincenzo even rated coming out of HS?

And Paschal is a transfer from Fordham.

[tucsonsean]

Nova is made up of 4 and 5 star players (mostly 4 star) so its not like they don't have talent. The key is that their best players were guards. Guards win in March.

Not sure this is accurate. Was DiVincenzo even rated coming out of HS?

And Paschal is a transfer from Fordham.

DiV was a four star. https://247sports.com/player/donte-divincenzo-34135" target="_blank

[Hank of sb]

Over the past month things that made sense, arn’t making much sense anymore.

I wanna go back to pre-feb 23.

There’s my emo post for the week.

What made sense a month ago, made sense five months ago, and clearly this thinking makes sense to a growing majority now.

Arizona would be better off without Sean Miller.................for so many reasons, even reasons just concerning plain ol' basketball.

No better reason than having every single adult who played part of the 'Book' scandal gone.

[DrWildcat]

Nova is made up of 4 and 5 star players (mostly 4 star) so its not like they don't have talent. The key is that their best players were guards. Guards win in March.

Not sure this is accurate. Was DiVincenzo even rated coming out of HS?

And Paschal is a transfer from Fordham.

As tucsonsean said DiVincenzo was 4 star. Paschall was a transfer but so was TJ and he was pretty good. Sometimes that happens. The only other guy that logged any minutes and wasn't 4 star or above was Gillespie (3 star). So they had some talented players.

[azgreg]

Nova is made up of 4 and 5 star players (mostly 4 star) so its not like they don't have talent. The key is that their best players were guards. Guards win in March.

Not sure this is accurate. Was DiVincenzo even rated coming out of HS?

And Paschal is a transfer from Fordham.

According to 24/7 DiVincenzo was a 4 star.
https://247sports.com/college/villanova ... ll/Commits" target="_blank

Paschal was a 3 star.
https://247sports.com/college/fordham/S ... ll/Commits" target="_blank

[Spaceman Spiff]

Nova is made up of 4 and 5 star players (mostly 4 star) so its not like they don't have talent. The key is that their best players were guards. Guards win in March.

Not sure this is accurate. Was DiVincenzo even rated coming out of HS?

And Paschal is a transfer from Fordham.

As tucsonsean said DiVincenzo was 4 star. Paschall was a transfer but so was TJ and he was pretty good. Sometimes that happens. The only other guy that logged any minutes and wasn't 4 star or above was Gillespie (3 star). So they had some talented players.

Yeah, Nova has actually pulled some of their strongest recruiting classes lately. Brunson was probably considered the best PG in his class. Some ranking had Briscoe and Thornton above him, but he's obviously substantially outperformed them.

Nova isn't a little engine that could. They're a team with legit talent that has developed very well.

[UALoco]

Nova is made up of 4 and 5 star players (mostly 4 star) so its not like they don't have talent. The key is that their best players were guards. Guards win in March.

Not sure this is accurate. Was DiVincenzo even rated coming out of HS?

And Paschal is a transfer from Fordham.

As tucsonsean said DiVincenzo was 4 star. Paschall was a transfer but so was TJ and he was pretty good. Sometimes that happens. The only other guy that logged any minutes and wasn't 4 star or above was Gillespie (3 star). So they had some talented players.

Yeah, Nova has actually pulled some of their strongest recruiting classes lately. Brunson was probably considered the best PG in his class. Some ranking had Briscoe and Thornton above him, but he's obviously substantially outperformed them.

Nova isn't a little engine that could. They're a team with legit talent that has developed very well.

And Arizona keeps underperforming.

[TheCat]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

Are you just an idiot or can't read? You want to show me a charge of bribery of a public offical (do you even know what that means) in any of the FBI charges? What they basically said is these assistants were ripping off public institution that got more that $10K in public money by paying players that would make them ineligible. Hence they have no value to the university. There is no bribery.
You obviously did not read the FBI charges. What is Dawkin's motivation (hint it is in the documents)? Dawkin's was a two bit hustler that ripped off everyone he came in contact with. He was fired for charging his UBER car trips on a clients credit card at his previous job for godsake. If you read the FBI documents he was given 25K for a players father and showed up with $19.5 K. Where did the other $5.5K go.....DO you understand Dawkins motivation now or do you just want to make shit up in your own mind.

Oh and one last thing....show me a sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it....just link away.

Well, I am an idiot.

Read footnote 1 of the FBI complaint. It specifically identifies the ONLY basis for charging coaches as receipt of bribes based on their status as public officials.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/us ... es-college" target="_blank

It is also referenced in this release:

"In the first scheme (the “Coach Bribery Scheme”), athlete advisors – including financial advisors and business managers, among others – allegedly paid bribes to assistant and associate head basketball coaches at NCAA Division I universities, and sometimes directly to student-athletes at those universities, facilitated by the coaches.  In exchange for the bribes, the coaches agreed to pressure and exert influence over student-athletes under their control to retain the services of the bribe-payors once the athletes entered the National Basketball Association (“NBA”)."

Why aren't more coaches getting charged? The theory is they're participating in the steering bribery scheme. The underlying issue of paying players is not causing coaches to go down. That portion of the investigation is referred to as the second scheme in the link above.

You just proved you did not know how to read the document you linked.

8 U.S. Code § 201 - Bribery of public officials and witnesses
• US Code
• Notes
• Authorities (CFR)
prev | next
(a)For the purpose of this section—
(1)
the term “public official” means Member of Congress, Delegate, or Resident Commissioner, either before or after such official has qualified, or an officer or employee or person acting for or on behalf of the United States, or any department, agency or branch of Government thereof, including the District of Columbia, in any official function, under or by authority of any such department, agency, or branch of Government, or a juror;
(2)
the term “person who has been selected to be a public official” means any person who has been nominated or appointed to be a public official, or has been officially informed that such person will be so nominated or appointed; and
(3)
the term “official act” means any decision or action on any question, matter, cause, suit, proceeding or controversy, which may at any time be pending, or which may by law be brought before any public official, in such official’s official capacity, or in such official’s place of trust or profit.

Maybe you want to tell me Book was secretly a member of congress........
It really ain't that hard. Book is charged (among other things with) Title 18, US Code Section 666 (A) (1) (B) and 666 (a) (2). You can pull it up if you like. I believe that is what you were referring too.

[Beachcat97]

That article comparing Nova to AZ is soul crushing. Makes Miller seem like Gene Keady and Wright seem like Izzo.

[Spaceman Spiff]

A coach who has won multiple national championships was fired over this.

Charged with what? The only legal theory for charges advanced is bribery of public officials (i.e., assistant coaches). Payments to players isn't illegal. That's why no one's charging $43,500 to Dennis Smith Jr. whether it happened or not. You don't see NCAA action because they've delayed investigation until after their committee makes recommendations at minimum.

You're also ignoring that over 20 programs had players repay under $250 benefits to preserve eligibility. This is a single agency. You legitimately think ASM was the only agency doing this?

Then there's direct money from shoe companies like Josh Jackson's mom getting monthly stipends from adidas and UA. That also didn't happen? What exactly is the motive by Dawkkns to make it look like Apples was pulling cash from shoe companies?

Are you just an idiot or can't read? You want to show me a charge of bribery of a public offical (do you even know what that means) in any of the FBI charges? What they basically said is these assistants were ripping off public institution that got more that $10K in public money by paying players that would make them ineligible. Hence they have no value to the university. There is no bribery.
You obviously did not read the FBI charges. What is Dawkin's motivation (hint it is in the documents)? Dawkin's was a two bit hustler that ripped off everyone he came in contact with. He was fired for charging his UBER car trips on a clients credit card at his previous job for godsake. If you read the FBI documents he was given 25K for a players father and showed up with $19.5 K. Where did the other $5.5K go.....DO you understand Dawkins motivation now or do you just want to make shit up in your own mind.

Oh and one last thing....show me a sreadsheet with an Arizona player on it....just link away.

Well, I am an idiot.

Read footnote 1 of the FBI complaint. It specifically identifies the ONLY basis for charging coaches as receipt of bribes based on their status as public officials.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/us ... es-college" target="_blank

It is also referenced in this release:

"In the first scheme (the “Coach Bribery Scheme”), athlete advisors – including financial advisors and business managers, among others – allegedly paid bribes to assistant and associate head basketball coaches at NCAA Division I universities, and sometimes directly to student-athletes at those universities, facilitated by the coaches.  In exchange for the bribes, the coaches agreed to pressure and exert influence over student-athletes under their control to retain the services of the bribe-payors once the athletes entered the National Basketball Association (“NBA”)."

Why aren't more coaches getting charged? The theory is they're participating in the steering bribery scheme. The underlying issue of paying players is not causing coaches to go down. That portion of the investigation is referred to as the second scheme in the link above.

You just proved you did not know how to read the document you linked.

8 U.S. Code § 201 - Bribery of public officials and witnesses
• US Code
• Notes
• Authorities (CFR)
prev | next
(a)For the purpose of this section—
(1)
the term “public official” means Member of Congress, Delegate, or Resident Commissioner, either before or after such official has qualified, or an officer or employee or person acting for or on behalf of the United States, or any department, agency or branch of Government thereof, including the District of Columbia, in any official function, under or by authority of any such department, agency, or branch of Government, or a juror;
(2)
the term “person who has been selected to be a public official” means any person who has been nominated or appointed to be a public official, or has been officially informed that such person will be so nominated or appointed; and
(3)
the term “official act” means any decision or action on any question, matter, cause, suit, proceeding or controversy, which may at any time be pending, or which may by law be brought before any public official, in such official’s official capacity, or in such official’s place of trust or profit.

Maybe you want to tell me Book was secretly a member of congress........
It really ain't that hard. Book is charged (among other things with) Title 18, US Code Section 666 (A) (1) (B) and 666 (a) (2). You can pull it up if you like. I believe that is what you were referring too.

What are you even arguing?

The title of 18 usc 666 is:

18 U.S. Code § 666 - Theft or bribery concerning programs receiving Federal funds

It criminalizes the conduct of a person who:

corruptly gives, offers, or agrees to give anything of value to any person, with intent to influence or reward an agent of an organization or of a State, local or Indian tribal government, or any agency thereof, in connection with any business, transaction, or series of transactions of such organization, government, or agency

Notice the point about bribery "an agent of an organization or of a State?" Book is a state agent and the crime is bribing him. The A1B cite criminalizes soliciting a bribe by a state agent.

Your 8 usc 201 cite is to something wholly inapplicable.

Break down the 666 elements:

Gives--gives money
Anything of value--money
Intent to influence--cause Book to be influenced
An agent of a State--Book