Coach Sumlin

[Merkin]

Sumlin hired one year and 2 days ago: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/n ... 032702001/" target="_blank

[Newportcat]

Again outside of gene stallings with Alabama, no coach who has been fired from previous power 5 job ever won a conference title with another power 5 school.

Meant to ask this before but got busy and forgot: Is this a researched and verified tidbit of information?

It's kind of an amazing thing if true.

Totally true

Now, Coach O might buck it at LSU but I think doubtful. I think Saban and Jimbo will continue to be ahead of LSU in the SEC West

http://www.espn.com/college-football/st ... n-programs

And Coach O somehow went from Ole Miss to LSU which is a 10 times better job.

Remember with Gene Stallings too, he was fired from A&M but they struggled with the Vietnam draft big time when he was there so was not totally fair he was fired.

I think now with Les Miles hired by Kansas and Sumlin with Arizona, there have now been 21 times a previously fired Power 5 coach has been hired at a Power 5 program. We now have three of them. No other program has done it more then once. I guess we are Number 1 in something for football

[Newportcat]

History has shown in college football coaches who got fired 99.9% of the time fail at the next job because they don’t change or adapt.

73.6% of all statistics are made up.

Look, Newport you’re shouting into the abyss. You’re a year too late to affect the coaching hire, and you’re even too late to save your own fandom! If Sumlin somehow was that one percenter, would you even notice?

I think it's fair to debate whether we effed up the Sumlin hire. We all know it won't change anything, but this board is about debate.

Is Sumlin the 1% type who learns and evolves? I don't think Year 1 is promising. He'll get more time to show it, because we have no choice, but that doesn't mean we have to table debating the wisdom of hiring him.

If we demonstrate better coaching, player development or score a better recruiting class, I'm open to him turning it around.

It may be a fair debate, but it’s ultimately a useless one until we are doing another coaching search. Unless you turned a Delorean into a time machine and you’re just now getting around to telling us.

The better debate is what Sumlin needs to do to make Arizona a success.

Depends on your definition of success but to me it would be making a Rose Bowl. Not winning it, but making it. So to me its an awful debate as if Sumlin wanted Arizona to be a success he would quit asap. Facts are Facts. Arizona needs a great coach, who is an excellent recruiter and developer of talent to even be potentially a Top 25 team. It needs everything working together to have a shot. And it needs all of that plus a ton of luck if we are ever going to make a Rose Bowl.

We need to find a diamond in the rough. A needle in the haystack. Sumlin is none of that just like Mackovic wasn't and just like Rich Rod wasn't.

If the goal is to make a Rose Bowl, Sumlin should quit immediately. Because remember the coach who was fired then won a conference title, won at Alabama. If Coach O does it it will be more because he is at LSU not because he is an amazing coach. They paid their DC more then Sumlin got paid from Arizona this year.

[Chicat]

Hang on a tick....

What’s this “WE” stuff??

http://www.beardownwildcats.com/viewtop ... =24&t=5220" target="_blank

You know I love you Newport, but I’ll have this debate with those who haven’t completely given up on the sport altogether.

[Newportcat]

Hey, I was led to believe useless debates were the lifeblood of sports message boards. Were we supposed to be convincing standers to sit and tilt to one side to wipe their butts after a deuce this whole time?

Yes, but not after the dookie had already been flushed down the pipes.

Sumlin needs to coach better, develop better and recruit better. Getting Tate into more read options to force the D to put 8 in the box would be one huge start. I know we'll never be top ten in recruiting, but getting around #25-30 would be big for Sumlin's long term success.

Coach better? Yes

Recruit better? Yes & Yes

Develop better? Let’s give the guy a couple minutes before we start dinging him for not developing players he’s been around .... *checks notes* ...... one season.

Kind of fun to battle Chicat again!

I bring this stuff up for a couple reasons. One, so if Arizona ever makes a coaching hire again for football or any sport, fans recognize how fruitless it is to hire a retread.

Two, I have a fascination with Arizona football fans and the lengths they will go to to be optimistic or justify things. I think back on being an Arizona football fan and I really do not have many good memories since 1999. Vegas Bowl was cool, beating ASU in 2014 was cool though the game the next week sucked, but vast majority of the time I only think of pain and agony. I have a ton of positive memories of Arizona basketball. So when a fan says, screw it, i see the facts but I am going to choose to be optimistic anyways, it candidly fascinates me. Its like debating people who do not believe in Evolution. I just find it interesting when people do not use facts to make decisions. Just do. Getting in these type of debates about Arizona football is candidly the most joy I have ever received from Arizona football!

But Chicat when you say lets give Sumlin time to develop players better, its not like we cant look at his past job to see how he did there....and not good

https://tamu.rivals.com/news/10-reasons ... led-at-a-m" target="_blank

And remember, now he has about half the money to pay and keep assistants so presumably he will not have as good of help

[Newportcat]

Hang on a tick....

What’s this “WE” stuff??

http://www.beardownwildcats.com/viewtop ... =24&t=5220" target="_blank

You know I love you Newport, but I’ll have this debate with those who haven’t completely given up on the sport altogether.

Dodge and Weave, dodge and weave. I hate football because its a dirty sport but I still like debating about it. And does not make anything I said false so lets stay on topic.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hey, I was led to believe useless debates were the lifeblood of sports message boards. Were we supposed to be convincing standers to sit and tilt to one side to wipe their butts after a deuce this whole time?

Yes, but not after the dookie had already been flushed down the pipes.

Sumlin needs to coach better, develop better and recruit better. Getting Tate into more read options to force the D to put 8 in the box would be one huge start. I know we'll never be top ten in recruiting, but getting around #25-30 would be big for Sumlin's long term success.

Coach better? Yes

Recruit better? Yes & Yes

Develop better? Let’s give the guy a couple minutes before we start dinging him for not developing players he’s been around .... *checks notes* ...... one season.

I'd be more positive about player development if Tate hadn't regressed horribly in that one year and I had difficulty picking out someone who progressed. I get that it's a small sample size, but it's also unimpressive.

[BBQ wildcat]

I just hope the UA doesn't extend his contract. Let it run until/unless he can prove:

1. That he can coach. (He hasn't shown that this year.)
2. That he can recruit. ( His first class looks a lot like Rich Rod's classes.)
3 That he can develop players. (He ruined Tate with his / his assistants' coaching)
4. That he can hire competent assistants/position coaches. With the abysmal 4th quarter against ASU, neither his offensive or defensive coaches measure up.
5. That he can man up when he and his coaches lose a game, instead of blaming the players for running shitty stall offense and defense.


So I hope the UA lets his contract run. If he wants it renegotiated, eliminate paying any buyout money. Don't reward a mediocre 6-6 or 7-5 season with an extension.

I am no longer "invested" as long as he is here. I won't waste any of my time (or money) watching until he can prove the above. I expect I will start watching (and hoping) again in 4-5 years, when Sumlin is fired.

[Chicat]

Hey, I was led to believe useless debates were the lifeblood of sports message boards. Were we supposed to be convincing standers to sit and tilt to one side to wipe their butts after a deuce this whole time?

Yes, but not after the dookie had already been flushed down the pipes.

Sumlin needs to coach better, develop better and recruit better. Getting Tate into more read options to force the D to put 8 in the box would be one huge start. I know we'll never be top ten in recruiting, but getting around #25-30 would be big for Sumlin's long term success.

Coach better? Yes

Recruit better? Yes & Yes

Develop better? Let’s give the guy a couple minutes before we start dinging him for not developing players he’s been around .... *checks notes* ...... one season.

Kind of fun to battle Chicat again!

I bring this stuff up for a couple reasons. One, so if Arizona ever makes a coaching hire again for football or any sport, fans recognize how fruitless it is to hire a retread.

Two, I have a fascination with Arizona football fans and the lengths they will go to to be optimistic or justify things. I think back on being an Arizona football fan and I really do not have many good memories since 1999. Vegas Bowl was cool, beating ASU in 2014 was cool though the game the next week sucked, but vast majority of the time I only think of pain and agony. I have a ton of positive memories of Arizona basketball. So when a fan says, screw it, i see the facts but I am going to choose to be optimistic anyways, it candidly fascinates me. Its like debating people who do not believe in Evolution. I just find it interesting when people do not use facts to make decisions. Just do. Getting in these type of debates about Arizona football is candidly the most joy I have ever received from Arizona football!

But Chicat when you say lets give Sumlin time to develop players better, its not like we cant look at his past job to see how he did there....and not good

https://tamu.rivals.com/news/10-reasons ... led-at-a-m" target="_blank

And remember, now he has about half the money to pay and keep assistants so presumably he will not have as good of help

Alright Johnny Optimist (If that was your real name), I hear you loud and clear.

Just one question though......

How does “let’s give him a couple years before burying him beneath the NEZ” get classified as irrationally and delusionally optimistic?



As for Tate’s regression, are we 100% sure not running was a directive from the coaching staff?

In 2016, Trevor Knight ran 100+ times for 600+ yards and 10 TDs for aTm. It makes no sense to me that Mazzone and Sumlin game planned explicitly to have a better athlete run less, unless it was on a game by game basis due to Tate being truly injured, in which case he shouldn’t have been out there at all.

[Sid]

I just wonder what it will be like practicing in air conditioning when it’s hot as Hell outside? Always been used against us in recruiting since these indoor facilities first started popping up. No factual proof Sumlin is looking at leaving for a better opportunity, cannot use that against us either. Never been to a Rose Bowl is all they have now and what they will continue to slander us with. I’m really interested to see what this next class will look like. Texas is a huge fucking state with a proud high school football lineage. We just landed a kid that broke (2) fucking huge records in the state of Texas. Plenty of doubters regarding this kid, but just maybe Grant is the real deal. I’m optimistic and this indoor practice facility looks fucking beautiful, let’s see what happens....

[Newportcat]

Hey, I was led to believe useless debates were the lifeblood of sports message boards. Were we supposed to be convincing standers to sit and tilt to one side to wipe their butts after a deuce this whole time?

Yes, but not after the dookie had already been flushed down the pipes.

Sumlin needs to coach better, develop better and recruit better. Getting Tate into more read options to force the D to put 8 in the box would be one huge start. I know we'll never be top ten in recruiting, but getting around #25-30 would be big for Sumlin's long term success.

Coach better? Yes

Recruit better? Yes & Yes

Develop better? Let’s give the guy a couple minutes before we start dinging him for not developing players he’s been around .... *checks notes* ...... one season.

Kind of fun to battle Chicat again!

I bring this stuff up for a couple reasons. One, so if Arizona ever makes a coaching hire again for football or any sport, fans recognize how fruitless it is to hire a retread.

Two, I have a fascination with Arizona football fans and the lengths they will go to to be optimistic or justify things. I think back on being an Arizona football fan and I really do not have many good memories since 1999. Vegas Bowl was cool, beating ASU in 2014 was cool though the game the next week sucked, but vast majority of the time I only think of pain and agony. I have a ton of positive memories of Arizona basketball. So when a fan says, screw it, i see the facts but I am going to choose to be optimistic anyways, it candidly fascinates me. Its like debating people who do not believe in Evolution. I just find it interesting when people do not use facts to make decisions. Just do. Getting in these type of debates about Arizona football is candidly the most joy I have ever received from Arizona football!

But Chicat when you say lets give Sumlin time to develop players better, its not like we cant look at his past job to see how he did there....and not good

https://tamu.rivals.com/news/10-reasons ... led-at-a-m" target="_blank

And remember, now he has about half the money to pay and keep assistants so presumably he will not have as good of help

Alright Johnny Optimist (If that was your real name), I hear you loud and clear.

Just one question though......

How does “let’s give him a couple years before burying him beneath the NEZ” get classified as irrationally and delusionally optimistic?



As for Tate’s regression, are we 100% sure not running was a directive from the coaching staff?

In 2016, Trevor Knight ran 100+ times for 600+ yards and 10 TDs for aTm. It makes no sense to me that Mazzone and Sumlin game planned explicitly to have a better athlete run less, unless it was on a game by game basis due to Tate being truly injured, in which case he shouldn’t have been out there at all.

Johnny Optimist was me. One I was young and an idiot 15 years ago and did not truly understand how the sausage was made in college athletics. I spend a lot of time trying to figure out how things really work in order to be successful and feel like I have a good handle now on what it takes to be successful in College Football. Tons of data out there to understand these things now. Also, in the first couple of years of Stoops, it was actually easy to be optimistic about Arizona football. He actually recruited Top 25 classes. He was a major name and felt like our players played hard under him. We had Hope. Then it faded and realities set in and the difference between Have and Have Not's in football have been evident to me especially now. Money difference is just so vast between Arizona and any SEC program lets say.

Its delusional and irrational as there are no facts to back up he will be successful which if you are saying lets wait and see you think could happen. There is no precedent in college football. Outside of blind faith, there is nothing concrete to suggest he will be successful. Especially after this past year and everything that has happened since he was hired. Literally everything. We just lost our two best assistants to other jobs. We could not afford to fire a terrible DC. We had the worst loss maybe ever to our hated rival. Every reason A&M fired him in that article basically happened last year.

And keep in mind its Arizona football where literally nothing is handed to you or easy so you can not afford not to be your absolute best.

Look you can be optimistic or take a wait and see approach as there really is no other choice. Just understand, the chances of success are so very very slim.

[Newportcat]

I just wonder what it will be like practicing in air conditioning when it’s hot as Hell outside? Always been used against us in recruiting since these indoor facilities first started popping up. No factual proof Sumlin is looking at leaving for a better opportunity, cannot use that against us either. Never been to a Rose Bowl is all they have now and what they will continue to slander us with. I’m really interested to see what this next class will look like. Texas is a huge fucking state with a proud high school football lineage. We just landed a kid that broke (2) fucking huge records in the state of Texas. Plenty of doubters regarding this kid, but just maybe Grant is the real deal. I’m optimistic and this indoor practice facility looks fucking beautiful, let’s see what happens....

There is a reason Grant went from a Top 100 fringe 5 star player to a Top 500 3 star player. And those reasons are not good and its not because recruiting sites are biased against Arizona.

https://n.rivals.com/news/rival-views--289" target="_blank

He dropped farther then any recruit in the country. Would not hang me hat on him being the real deal.

Indoor facility would have been awesome...like 12-15 years ago. When having great facilities could be a competitive advantage like Oregon used it as. Now everyone has one. Every school in the PAC 12 now has fancy lockers and football facilities. Every program that needs an indoor facility has one except us which will soon change. It will definitely not hurt our program but I struggle to think it will be the miracle we need like I once did. Could definitely be wrong about it as our weather has been used against us for a long time.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hey, I was led to believe useless debates were the lifeblood of sports message boards. Were we supposed to be convincing standers to sit and tilt to one side to wipe their butts after a deuce this whole time?

Yes, but not after the dookie had already been flushed down the pipes.

Sumlin needs to coach better, develop better and recruit better. Getting Tate into more read options to force the D to put 8 in the box would be one huge start. I know we'll never be top ten in recruiting, but getting around #25-30 would be big for Sumlin's long term success.

Coach better? Yes

Recruit better? Yes & Yes

Develop better? Let’s give the guy a couple minutes before we start dinging him for not developing players he’s been around .... *checks notes* ...... one season.

Kind of fun to battle Chicat again!

I bring this stuff up for a couple reasons. One, so if Arizona ever makes a coaching hire again for football or any sport, fans recognize how fruitless it is to hire a retread.

Two, I have a fascination with Arizona football fans and the lengths they will go to to be optimistic or justify things. I think back on being an Arizona football fan and I really do not have many good memories since 1999. Vegas Bowl was cool, beating ASU in 2014 was cool though the game the next week sucked, but vast majority of the time I only think of pain and agony. I have a ton of positive memories of Arizona basketball. So when a fan says, screw it, i see the facts but I am going to choose to be optimistic anyways, it candidly fascinates me. Its like debating people who do not believe in Evolution. I just find it interesting when people do not use facts to make decisions. Just do. Getting in these type of debates about Arizona football is candidly the most joy I have ever received from Arizona football!

But Chicat when you say lets give Sumlin time to develop players better, its not like we cant look at his past job to see how he did there....and not good

https://tamu.rivals.com/news/10-reasons ... led-at-a-m" target="_blank

And remember, now he has about half the money to pay and keep assistants so presumably he will not have as good of help

Alright Johnny Optimist (If that was your real name), I hear you loud and clear.

Just one question though......

How does “let’s give him a couple years before burying him beneath the NEZ” get classified as irrationally and delusionally optimistic?

As for Tate’s regression, are we 100% sure not running was a directive from the coaching staff?

In 2016, Trevor Knight ran 100+ times for 600+ yards and 10 TDs for aTm. It makes no sense to me that Mazzone and Sumlin game planned explicitly to have a better athlete run less, unless it was on a game by game basis due to Tate being truly injured, in which case he shouldn’t have been out there at all.

I don't buy the "might have been Tate not running when he should have" theory. Part of coaching is getting players to do the stuff they're good at. Further, Tate killed it in the read option the year before, and we saw zero read option in the early games.

No use of the system Tate was great in. Best case scenario, a failure in getting the player to execute what he does best. Neither is a great reflection on Sumlin.

[Chicat]

I don't buy the "might have been Tate not running when he should have" theory. Part of coaching is getting players to do the stuff they're good at. Further, Tate killed it in the read option the year before, and we saw zero read option in the early games.

No use of the system Tate was great in. Best case scenario, a failure in getting the player to execute what he does best. Neither is a great reflection on Sumlin.

What if Tate’s camp was explicit that he needed to be showcased as a pocket passer otherwise he’d sit out and prepare himself for the ‘19 NFL Draft leaving Sumlin with RhettRod or Joiner as his starting QB?

I have no inside info that that conversation actually took place, but I am aware of similar demands/ultimatums being made in college sports.

There’s no nagging doubts in your mind this could be the case? You’re 100% certain they watched film of Tate running past everyone and decided he was the reincarnation of Carson Palmer?

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't buy the "might have been Tate not running when he should have" theory. Part of coaching is getting players to do the stuff they're good at. Further, Tate killed it in the read option the year before, and we saw zero read option in the early games.

No use of the system Tate was great in. Best case scenario, a failure in getting the player to execute what he does best. Neither is a great reflection on Sumlin.

What if Tate’s camp was explicit that he needed to be showcased as a pocket passer otherwise he’d sit out and prepare himself for the ‘19 NFL Draft leaving Sumlin with RhettRod or Joiner as his starting QB?

I have no inside info that that conversation actually took place, but I am aware of similar demands/ultimatums being made in college sports.

There’s no nagging doubts in your mind this could be the case? You’re 100% certain they watched film of Tate running past everyone and decided he was the reincarnation of Carson Palmer?

Talking through individual agendas is a huge part of coaching. If this happened, and I'm not aware of any evidence it did, part of the job is how to talk people into their roles.

[Chicat]

I don't buy the "might have been Tate not running when he should have" theory. Part of coaching is getting players to do the stuff they're good at. Further, Tate killed it in the read option the year before, and we saw zero read option in the early games.

No use of the system Tate was great in. Best case scenario, a failure in getting the player to execute what he does best. Neither is a great reflection on Sumlin.

What if Tate’s camp was explicit that he needed to be showcased as a pocket passer otherwise he’d sit out and prepare himself for the ‘19 NFL Draft leaving Sumlin with RhettRod or Joiner as his starting QB?

I have no inside info that that conversation actually took place, but I am aware of similar demands/ultimatums being made in college sports.

There’s no nagging doubts in your mind this could be the case? You’re 100% certain they watched film of Tate running past everyone and decided he was the reincarnation of Carson Palmer?

Talking through individual agendas is a huge part of coaching. If this happened, and I'm not aware of any evidence it did, part of the job is how to talk people into their roles.

I think with all the players transferring in both major college sports, we can surmise that even the most successful and influential coaches struggle with talking young men into their roles.

[DrWildcat]

It feels like more and more that the college kid's "advisor(s)" are more influential than the coaches. Sometimes the coaches only counter is having a guy waiting to take their spot which we didn't have. I don't know if that is truly the case here but it is hard to deny that Tate's mindset changed when it came to being a runner this year. When the questions came about why isn't Tate running more wasn't Sumlin's response something to the effect of "we see the same things you do"? But yeah, they probably didn't want him to run at all and instead directed him to repeatedly run out of bounds for a loss when under pressure. That all put together definitely makes me question what is going on in the background. I guess we will see what happens this coming year.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't buy the "might have been Tate not running when he should have" theory. Part of coaching is getting players to do the stuff they're good at. Further, Tate killed it in the read option the year before, and we saw zero read option in the early games.

No use of the system Tate was great in. Best case scenario, a failure in getting the player to execute what he does best. Neither is a great reflection on Sumlin.

What if Tate’s camp was explicit that he needed to be showcased as a pocket passer otherwise he’d sit out and prepare himself for the ‘19 NFL Draft leaving Sumlin with RhettRod or Joiner as his starting QB?

I have no inside info that that conversation actually took place, but I am aware of similar demands/ultimatums being made in college sports.

There’s no nagging doubts in your mind this could be the case? You’re 100% certain they watched film of Tate running past everyone and decided he was the reincarnation of Carson Palmer?

Talking through individual agendas is a huge part of coaching. If this happened, and I'm not aware of any evidence it did, part of the job is how to talk people into their roles.

I think with all the players transferring in both major college sports, we can surmise that even the most successful and influential coaches struggle with talking young men into their roles.

Successful head coaches get players into those roles or talented guys to replace them. Unsuccessful coaches don't.

It may have been a challenge for Sumlin, but winning at Arizona is challenging. Solving issues like that makes the difference in the success of his tenure. If Tate refused, which again isn't necessarily true, if Sumlin can't navigate those issues, it doesn't make me feel better.

[Newportcat]

Hang on a tick....

What’s this “WE” stuff??

http://www.beardownwildcats.com/viewtop ... =24&t=5220" target="_blank

You know I love you Newport, but I’ll have this debate with those who haven’t completely given up on the sport altogether.

Also what debate? So far I have not heard from one single person making the case for why Sumlin has a chance to be successful. There has really been no debate. I have clearly articulated why I believe it is delusional and unrealistic to think he will be successful (Again, I define success as getting Arizona to a Rose Bowl which is basically winning the PAC 12 once. Not many times but just once which I think especially given how subpar the PAC 12 is right now is not out of the realm of possibilities) based on historical evidence for how fired coaches perform at new schools, based on his track record at Texas A&M, based on his recruiting so far, based on our performance in 2018, and based on the structural issues Arizona has with the lack of revenues which hurt our ability to hire and keep top assistant coaches or have the support staff like our competitors while having little to no tradition or fan support.

To have a debate on this topic I would need someone to step up and take the other side and articulate it. Stating "Well, since we cant fire him and we are stuck with him I am going to hope he does well so case closed" is not a debate. I love to debate, this has not been a debate.

[Chicat]

Hang on a tick....

What’s this “WE” stuff??

http://www.beardownwildcats.com/viewtop ... =24&t=5220" target="_blank

You know I love you Newport, but I’ll have this debate with those who haven’t completely given up on the sport altogether.

Also what debate? So far I have not heard from one single person making the case for why Sumlin has a chance to be successful. There has really been no debate. I have clearly articulated why I believe it is delusional and unrealistic to think he will be successful (Again, I define success as getting Arizona to a Rose Bowl which is basically winning the PAC 12 once. Not many times but just once which I think especially given how subpar the PAC 12 is right now is not out of the realm of possibilities) based on historical evidence for how fired coaches perform at new schools, based on his track record at Texas A&M, based on his recruiting so far, based on our performance in 2018, and based on the structural issues Arizona has with the lack of revenues which hurt our ability to hire and keep top assistant coaches or have the support staff like our competitors while having little to no tradition or fan support.

To have a debate on this topic I would need someone to step up and take the other side and articulate it. Stating "Well, since we cant fire him and we are stuck with him I am going to hope he does well so case closed" is not a debate. I love to debate, this has not been a debate.

Good thing, since I wouldn’t want to waste the time of someone who claims to be done with the sport altogether.

But, on the off chance this is something you’re still interested in, Winger has some thoughts to consider...

Winger posted this at 24/7 Premium and I asked his permission first before posting here:

WingerCat
Sep 13, 9:35 AM

As Aggie fan and the rest of the world tells you that Sumlin can't coach, is soft, doesn't develop players, and the like.

A&M was no good prior to entering the SEC, and that was playing in the lowly Big "12". In the 5 seasons prior to Sumlin's arrival the Aggies has a winning conference record once and finished up ranked in the final AP top 25 once (19th). A&M hadn't been a consistently good program since the 1990s and the 2 coaches prior to Sumlin failed quickly and were fired.

Sumlin's hire coincided with the move to the SEC West. I remind you that that half of the conference includes Alabama, Auburn, and LSU. In addition to Miss, Ole Miss, and Arky. Plus, you have Georgia, Florida, and So Carolina in the East. You want a quick test of how hard it has been to be successful in the SEC West over time? Quick - name me a long term successful coach from the SEC West not named Saban. You're going back to early-oughts-Miles aren't you? And even with Lester, you have to concede that he was castrated rather quickly following the arrival of Saban. Regardless, it ain't a very long list and A&M ain't no LSU Bama or Auburn, let's not delude ourselves like Aggie fan in his uniform and pop gun.

Sumlin was 35-17 at Houston and under his tuteledge Keenum set about a million NCAA passing records. This ain't in a Big 5 conference but he was 12-1 his final season, and through his tenure the Cougars were 4-1 vs teams ranked at the time of the game, and 5-4 vs teams from Big 5 conferences, and he had wins over #5 Okie State and #22 PSU.

As I am sure you know, Sumlin went 11-2 his first season in College Station, his QB won the Heisman, he beat #1 ranked Alabama, and he throttled OU in the Cotton Bowl and ended the season ranked #5.

From then on he went 40-24 and his teams went to a bowl game every season (fwtiw).

You got that, right? Sumlin was 51-26 at A&M.

Not 26-51.

His 6-season record at A&M in the SEC was better than A&M's record in the Big "12" the 6 seasons prior to his arrival (42-35).

Got that as well, right? If not, read it again, and then send it on to that girl you know in College Station who has been beating you up with "I told you so"s.

Further, if you look at his record a little closer you'll see the following. 15 of Sumlin's regular season losses came vs ranked teams. What's more, 8 of those teams were ranked in the Top 10, 5 in the Top 5, and 3 of 'em were ranked #1. Sumlin was under water vs ranked teams at A&M but not terribly so at 13-15. In comparison Rich Rod went 8-17 vs ranked teams at Arizona and was blown out far more often. Sumlin got 5 of his 6 squads ranked in the AP Top 10 at some point in the season though only his first 2 finished up there.

Sumlin is coaching the players Rodriguez signed. He does not run the ZRO nor the 3-3-5 and I have been telling you that Arizona's recruiting has been for shit for years. He has coached 2 games at Arizona - versus teams Rodriguez didn't score 20 points against -- and also lost to -- in 2016 and 2017. If Arizona had opened up with NAU and UTEP, or UTSA and Grambling, or UNLV and Southern Alabama, I bet none of you feel the way you currently do.

But the same Sumlin would still be your head coach.

Don't get me wrong I am furious at not using Tate's legs. I am however not surprised that Tate can't throw, that the defense isn't very good, nor that we laid an egg on the road in a 9 am start time. I expected Sumlin to Manziel-up Tate but that obviously hasn't happened. But I also expected Tate to get hurt and Arizona to crater when he was unavailable to play. These reasons are partly why I told you I liked Arizona under 7.5 wins.

But even more so it was on account of the lack of talent on the roster coupled with the fact that what talent that was here was not recruited to fit and fill Sumlin's systems.

That's a long way of saying, again, that while I certainly understand it, I think the entire free world is over reacting to Arizona's start as it reflects on what kind of coach Sumlin is or will be. I will save you the examples, but I'd suggest waiting to see how Jimbo in fact does at A&M in particular, and not lose sight of Rodriguez and Niu's limitations (fully documented here), before you conclude that Sumlin is an unmotivated dipshit who sits at home in the evening counting his money in a cuddly flamingo colored bathrobe and slippers.

He is and always was my guy. If I could get away with it I'd be wearing an afro-filled Arizona visor 24-7-365, instead of only when I shower. I am wearing Arizona football gear to work for the first time in years. Responding to the heckling with "that's funny, enjoy it for now, because we're coming for you", or something of the like. I love him. Still. Things I note to reflect my bias.

But my bias in no way affects the reality that says none of you know what you have in a head coach yet. And I'd offer that the available evidence says he is the best head coach Arizona has hired in 50 years. Or longer. So until you know and see otherwise; my advice, should you want to hear and choose to accept it, is:

Chill.

[Newportcat]

To be clear, I do not watch the game anymore and will not buy a ticket to another Arizona football game until they are in the Rose Bowl as I know it would be an opportunity to see old friends and meet people on this board like you Chicat. I have diverted my donation dollars to the athletic program to specifically nothing related to Football.

But do enjoy debating the topic as again it interests me more to see people come up with ways to justify things that are completely irrational. I am not religious but love getting into Religious debates.

But getting back on topic which is all I have ever asked for

Winger is just wrong in so many areas. First off that was written in Sept. Not today. I do not know Winger but my guess is he might feel differently now. He is telling everyone to Chill but in hindsight anyone who was concerned about Sumlin after the first two games was basically proven right given how the season played out. We had the worst ever loss to ASU, we finished with a losing record in an awful PAC 12. We did not make a bowl game after making it the year before. We then finished with a slightly better then Rich Rod recruiting class but still nothing special. And lost our top two assistant coaches quickly.

Jimbo looks like a really strong hire for A&M, he took Sumlin's players and almost beat Clemson and finished 2nd in the SEC West. They finished ranked 16th in the country, the first time since 2013 they finished ranked in the Top 25. He brought in a tremendous recruiting class, better then anything Sumlin ever brought in.

He is also completely wrong in saying none of us know what we have in a good coach yet. Sumlin had been a previous head coach, we knew what we got and its not good. He had every available resource at A&M and he could not even get them ranked at the end of the year Top 25, 4 years in a row. Keep in mind this is the most Valuable program in all of College football with $148M in revenues. A&M football generates almost 1/3 more revenue then ALL of U of A athletics and our basketball program generates a ton of revenues.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith ... 18a1816c64" target="_blank

And the available evidence would say he is no where close to the best hire Arizona has made for football. Because available evidence CLEARLY states that fired head coaches never really do well at their next jobs especially when their next jobs are harder then their previous jobs to win at. There is ZERO evidence or precedent to show that Sumlin can be successful. None. No one can name one college coach who was fired, then took an inferior job, and took them to a conference title. Just one conference title. In the history of college football.

Come on Chicat, I expect better from you. Using someone's logic from another site from 5 months ago, that is pretty weak

[Chicat]

I don't buy the "might have been Tate not running when he should have" theory. Part of coaching is getting players to do the stuff they're good at. Further, Tate killed it in the read option the year before, and we saw zero read option in the early games.

No use of the system Tate was great in. Best case scenario, a failure in getting the player to execute what he does best. Neither is a great reflection on Sumlin.

What if Tate’s camp was explicit that he needed to be showcased as a pocket passer otherwise he’d sit out and prepare himself for the ‘19 NFL Draft leaving Sumlin with RhettRod or Joiner as his starting QB?

I have no inside info that that conversation actually took place, but I am aware of similar demands/ultimatums being made in college sports.

There’s no nagging doubts in your mind this could be the case? You’re 100% certain they watched film of Tate running past everyone and decided he was the reincarnation of Carson Palmer?

Talking through individual agendas is a huge part of coaching. If this happened, and I'm not aware of any evidence it did, part of the job is how to talk people into their roles.

I think with all the players transferring in both major college sports, we can surmise that even the most successful and influential coaches struggle with talking young men into their roles.

Successful head coaches get players into those roles or talented guys to replace them. Unsuccessful coaches don't.

It may have been a challenge for Sumlin, but winning at Arizona is challenging. Solving issues like that makes the difference in the success of his tenure. If Tate refused, which again isn't necessarily true, if Sumlin can't navigate those issues, it doesn't make me feel better.

How was he supposed to navigate this hypothetical with the roster we had in place? Seems like an egregious expectation.

[Chicat]

Come on Chicat, I expect better from you. Using someone's logic from another site from 5 months ago, that is pretty weak

Or I just don’t have the time to go back through Sumlin’s career with a fine tooth comb and I find your recitation of the same point tiring and boring. But call it like you see it Newport.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Chi, to address your previous post without quoting into oblivion.

This all rests on a hypothetical where Tate makes a demand for no read option or he doesn't play. If that didn't happen, Sumlin and Mazzone simply screwed the pooch with a terrible systemic fit they imposed.

If your hypo did occur and Tate made that demand, this left a couple options. Sumlin could negotiate to a middle ground. Sumlin could tell Tate to **** off. Sumlin could go run a system that crippled our offense to appease Tate out of fear the backups would be worse.

The best coaches are going to find a way to make the middle ground work. Solving individual agendas with players is not an optional skill in 2018-19, IMO. Being able to get things done in those situations separates coaches. The lack of great backups lessens the ability to tell Tate to leave (if the demand actually happened) but again, negotiating your way out of tough spots is a useful skill I don't see in Sumlin so far.

If that changes over time, hey, the better for us. It circles back to a point I was making, that I just have not seen it so far out of Sumlin.

[Chicat]

Chi, to address your previous post without quoting into oblivion.

This all rests on a hypothetical where Tate makes a demand for no read option or he doesn't play. If that didn't happen, Sumlin and Mazzone simply screwed the pooch with a terrible systemic fit they imposed.

If your hypo did occur and Tate made that demand, this left a couple options. Sumlin could negotiate to a middle ground. Sumlin could tell Tate to **** off. Sumlin could go run a system that crippled our offense to appease Tate out of fear the backups would be worse.

The best coaches are going to find a way to make the middle ground work. Solving individual agendas with players is not an optional skill in 2018-19, IMO. Being able to get things done in those situations separates coaches. The lack of great backups lessens the ability to tell Tate to leave (if the demand actually happened) but again, negotiating your way out of tough spots is a useful skill I don't see in Sumlin so far.

If that changes over time, hey, the better for us. It circles back to a point I was making, that I just have not seen it so far out of Sumlin.

The other scenario not mentioned is that Sumlin and Mazzone tell Tate that once he gets past his second read and nothing is open to go ahead and tuck it and run, but in most situations Tate ignores that directive and forces a bad throw or throws it away.

I’m honestly not sure how you handle that. Saban can navigate that by benching Tagavailoa because he’s got Hurts that’s not only itching to come in, but is really really good. Sumlin on the other hand had . . . ugh.

Obviously this is all speculative. The real story may just be that Sumlin and Mazzone fucked it all up, or that Tate was really injured, but we don’t really know. Which is why I’m reluctant to etch “Pounded a square peg into a round hole” on Sumlin’s tombstone.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Chi, to address your previous post without quoting into oblivion.

This all rests on a hypothetical where Tate makes a demand for no read option or he doesn't play. If that didn't happen, Sumlin and Mazzone simply screwed the pooch with a terrible systemic fit they imposed.

If your hypo did occur and Tate made that demand, this left a couple options. Sumlin could negotiate to a middle ground. Sumlin could tell Tate to **** off. Sumlin could go run a system that crippled our offense to appease Tate out of fear the backups would be worse.

The best coaches are going to find a way to make the middle ground work. Solving individual agendas with players is not an optional skill in 2018-19, IMO. Being able to get things done in those situations separates coaches. The lack of great backups lessens the ability to tell Tate to leave (if the demand actually happened) but again, negotiating your way out of tough spots is a useful skill I don't see in Sumlin so far.

If that changes over time, hey, the better for us. It circles back to a point I was making, that I just have not seen it so far out of Sumlin.

The other scenario not mentioned is that Sumlin and Mazzone tell Tate that once he gets past his second read and nothing is open to go ahead and tuck it and run, but in most situations Tate ignores that directive and forces a bad throw or throws it away.

I’m honestly not sure how you handle that. Saban can navigate that by benching Tagavailoa because he’s got Hurts that’s not only itching to come in, but is really really good. Sumlin on the other hand had . . . ugh.

Obviously this is all speculative. The real story may just be that Sumlin and Mazzone fucked it all up, or that Tate was really injured, but we don’t really know. Which is why I’m reluctant to etch “Pounded a square peg into a round hole” on Sumlin’s tombstone.

My biggest issue was no zone read for the first few games. For a player of Tate's ability in the zone read, it boggled my mind. We didn't hear about the ankle until after Houston, but there wasn't a single zone read vs BYU.

When we started seeing it later on, I was really unhappy. Obviously, we planned for it to some extent, and didn't use it. Zone read is either the QB or RB, so it eliminates the tuck and run aspect of late play decision making where you do need to rely on Tate in the moment.

I don't think you're wrong in the tuck and run scenario, but Tate had 8 attempts, counting sack/pressure situations, vs BYU. Consistently implementing zone read for 25-33% of plays would have pumped that up to at least 15, which is where it should have been even if he's transitioning to a more pocket centric guy.

That's where I think Sumlin/Mazzone either didn't plan correctly or failed to sell Tate (if Tate threw an ultimatum) on giving him 40-50 pure dropback situations balanced out with 20 zone read snaps.

[DrWildcat]

Newport, you keep coming back to the statistics that retreads never do well but then define success at Arizona as a Rose Bowl berth. Well the statistics says that is never going to happen either way. If that is the expectation, you are absolutely not going out on a limb saying Sumlin won't meet that. At the same time, it is also unlikely that any other coach will because statistics. I would just like some consistency from the program as both Stoops and RichRod had us close to the Rose Bowl but they couldn't sustain it.

[Chicat]

Chi, to address your previous post without quoting into oblivion.

This all rests on a hypothetical where Tate makes a demand for no read option or he doesn't play. If that didn't happen, Sumlin and Mazzone simply screwed the pooch with a terrible systemic fit they imposed.

If your hypo did occur and Tate made that demand, this left a couple options. Sumlin could negotiate to a middle ground. Sumlin could tell Tate to **** off. Sumlin could go run a system that crippled our offense to appease Tate out of fear the backups would be worse.

The best coaches are going to find a way to make the middle ground work. Solving individual agendas with players is not an optional skill in 2018-19, IMO. Being able to get things done in those situations separates coaches. The lack of great backups lessens the ability to tell Tate to leave (if the demand actually happened) but again, negotiating your way out of tough spots is a useful skill I don't see in Sumlin so far.

If that changes over time, hey, the better for us. It circles back to a point I was making, that I just have not seen it so far out of Sumlin.

The other scenario not mentioned is that Sumlin and Mazzone tell Tate that once he gets past his second read and nothing is open to go ahead and tuck it and run, but in most situations Tate ignores that directive and forces a bad throw or throws it away.

I’m honestly not sure how you handle that. Saban can navigate that by benching Tagavailoa because he’s got Hurts that’s not only itching to come in, but is really really good. Sumlin on the other hand had . . . ugh.

Obviously this is all speculative. The real story may just be that Sumlin and Mazzone fucked it all up, or that Tate was really injured, but we don’t really know. Which is why I’m reluctant to etch “Pounded a square peg into a round hole” on Sumlin’s tombstone.

My biggest issue was no zone read for the first few games. For a player of Tate's ability in the zone read, it boggled my mind. We didn't hear about the ankle until after Houston, but there wasn't a single zone read vs BYU.

When we started seeing it later on, I was really unhappy. Obviously, we planned for it to some extent, and didn't use it. Zone read is either the QB or RB, so it eliminates the tuck and run aspect of late play decision making where you do need to rely on Tate in the moment.

I don't think you're wrong in the tuck and run scenario, but Tate had 8 attempts, counting sack/pressure situations, vs BYU. Consistently implementing zone read for 25-33% of plays would have pumped that up to at least 15, which is where it should have been even if he's transitioning to a more pocket centric guy.

That's where I think Sumlin/Mazzone either didn't plan correctly or failed to sell Tate (if Tate threw an ultimatum) on giving him 40-50 pure dropback situations balanced out with 20 zone read snaps.

It’s the playcalling in the first few games which has led me to the feeling that Tate or his people mandated no designed runs. Then when it became obvious that not running was fucking up his pro prospects, we started to see more of it.

Either way I agree the play calling is 100% on the coaching staff, but I have to acknowledge there is the possibility they were put in a totally impossible position of agreeing to certain demands or having to live with RhettRod being responsible for the success of their first season.

[Newportcat]

Newport, you keep coming back to the statistics that retreads never do well but then define success at Arizona as a Rose Bowl berth. Well the statistics says that is never going to happen either way. If that is the expectation, you are absolutely not going out on a limb saying Sumlin won't meet that. At the same time, it is also unlikely that any other coach will because statistics. I would just like some consistency from the program as both Stoops and RichRod had us close to the Rose Bowl but they couldn't sustain it.

What statistics state its impossible for Arizona to make a Rose Bowl? Especially given how terrible the PAC 12 is right now and should be for the next 4-6 years given how poor our TV revenues are.

We are the only remaining team from the original Big 10 and PAC 10 to have never made a Rose Bowl. Heck WSU has made two Rose bowls in the past 20 years. Its perfectly possible and reasonable to expect Arizona to make a Rose Bowl especially now a days. Utah almost made it this year and I would not call them that good of a team with any highly talented NFL guys. You know why, they have a very good coach who maximizes their talent and recruits under the radar well and has never been fired.

Consistency is good immediate goal. And again, if you want consistency how does Coach Sumlin provide that. He took over a Bowl Bound team, with 17 returning starters, and we failed to make a bowl in a terrible PAC 12. He was consistently average at A&M with every known advantage a program can have outside of having to play Nick Saban every year.

He was fired for a reason and there is not a single A&M fan who would want him back or a single person out there who looks at their situation and says, lets right a book about how Sumlin was screwed and title it 6 and Out.

[Newportcat]

Come on Chicat, I expect better from you. Using someone's logic from another site from 5 months ago, that is pretty weak

Or I just don’t have the time to go back through Sumlin’s career with a fine tooth comb and I find your recitation of the same point tiring and boring. But call it like you see it Newport.

Now our relationship is officially back!

And again, I will wait here ready to finally see someone make the case for why Sumlin can be successful. I could be dead wrong in my positions too

[azgreg]

[Spaceman Spiff]

Chi, to address your previous post without quoting into oblivion.

This all rests on a hypothetical where Tate makes a demand for no read option or he doesn't play. If that didn't happen, Sumlin and Mazzone simply screwed the pooch with a terrible systemic fit they imposed.

If your hypo did occur and Tate made that demand, this left a couple options. Sumlin could negotiate to a middle ground. Sumlin could tell Tate to **** off. Sumlin could go run a system that crippled our offense to appease Tate out of fear the backups would be worse.

The best coaches are going to find a way to make the middle ground work. Solving individual agendas with players is not an optional skill in 2018-19, IMO. Being able to get things done in those situations separates coaches. The lack of great backups lessens the ability to tell Tate to leave (if the demand actually happened) but again, negotiating your way out of tough spots is a useful skill I don't see in Sumlin so far.

If that changes over time, hey, the better for us. It circles back to a point I was making, that I just have not seen it so far out of Sumlin.

The other scenario not mentioned is that Sumlin and Mazzone tell Tate that once he gets past his second read and nothing is open to go ahead and tuck it and run, but in most situations Tate ignores that directive and forces a bad throw or throws it away.

I’m honestly not sure how you handle that. Saban can navigate that by benching Tagavailoa because he’s got Hurts that’s not only itching to come in, but is really really good. Sumlin on the other hand had . . . ugh.

Obviously this is all speculative. The real story may just be that Sumlin and Mazzone fucked it all up, or that Tate was really injured, but we don’t really know. Which is why I’m reluctant to etch “Pounded a square peg into a round hole” on Sumlin’s tombstone.

My biggest issue was no zone read for the first few games. For a player of Tate's ability in the zone read, it boggled my mind. We didn't hear about the ankle until after Houston, but there wasn't a single zone read vs BYU.

When we started seeing it later on, I was really unhappy. Obviously, we planned for it to some extent, and didn't use it. Zone read is either the QB or RB, so it eliminates the tuck and run aspect of late play decision making where you do need to rely on Tate in the moment.

I don't think you're wrong in the tuck and run scenario, but Tate had 8 attempts, counting sack/pressure situations, vs BYU. Consistently implementing zone read for 25-33% of plays would have pumped that up to at least 15, which is where it should have been even if he's transitioning to a more pocket centric guy.

That's where I think Sumlin/Mazzone either didn't plan correctly or failed to sell Tate (if Tate threw an ultimatum) on giving him 40-50 pure dropback situations balanced out with 20 zone read snaps.

It’s the playcalling in the first few games which has led me to the feeling that Tate or his people mandated no designed runs. Then when it became obvious that not running was fucking up his pro prospects, we started to see more of it.

Either way I agree the play calling is 100% on the coaching staff, but I have to acknowledge there is the possibility they were put in a totally impossible position of agreeing to certain demands or having to live with RhettRod being responsible for the success of their first season.

Ehh, I tend to think it's more likely Sumlin/Mazzone ran the system they implemented in the offseason, then we got embarassed in weeks 1 and 2 and had to rework things on the fly.

There was a lot of backlash after we came out and pooped the bed vs Houston. That's exactly the same time the ankle and restructuring of the offense started happening.

I agree it was a reaction to the trainwreck of a start, but am less sure it was all on Tate vs joint or all on Mazzone/Sumlin.

[zonagrad]

The problem I have with Arizona football is that the schemes don't always coincide with the skill set of the players. You need to play to your strengths and understand that there are going to be bigger and sometimes faster opponents. So you don't install a system and keep a mobile quarterback in the pocket with an undersized running back and mediocre offensive line. And you don't rush 3 defenders an entire game despite getting absolutely no pressure on the opponent's QB.

[Chicat]

Come on Chicat, I expect better from you. Using someone's logic from another site from 5 months ago, that is pretty weak

Or I just don’t have the time to go back through Sumlin’s career with a fine tooth comb and I find your recitation of the same point tiring and boring. But call it like you see it Newport.

Now our relationship is officially back!

And again, I will wait here ready to finally see someone make the case for why Sumlin can be successful. I could be dead wrong in my positions too

My confidence in Sumlin before this past season was based on his tenure at Houston moreso than what happened at aTm, mainly because I think Arizona Football is probably at about Houston’s level if you balance the relative strengths of the recruiting areas against the relative strengths of the conference affiliations.

For one thing, his offenses at Houston were really really good. For another, he had them ranked in the top 25 by the first half of his second season which is something that hadn’t happened in like 20 something years. In fact, they were ranked at least a portion of every year after his first, and had them 12-0 at one point. A third factor was that he brought Houston to such a prominent status that they ended up being able to build an entirely new stadium to accommodate all the increased fan interest.

Take out the entire aTm era for Sumlin and let’s pretend for a second we hired him straight from his tenure at Houston. Wouldn’t that render your entire argument moot? Obviously we can’t do that because aTm happened (for better or worse), but I do wonder if it’s possible that Sumlin can dial it back to the days he was coaching the Cougars in order to turn Arizona around. I hope he can. Is Sumlin the giant-killer he was at Houston or the guy who couldn’t live up to expectations in the SEC?

As for retreads vs. up-and-comers, it sure seems like Sumlin has been both. Can a retread turn back the clock? You say no chance. But you would have said the same about a 16 seed beating a 1 seed in the tourney . . . right up until it happened, right?

[DrWildcat]

Newport, you keep coming back to the statistics that retreads never do well but then define success at Arizona as a Rose Bowl berth. Well the statistics says that is never going to happen either way. If that is the expectation, you are absolutely not going out on a limb saying Sumlin won't meet that. At the same time, it is also unlikely that any other coach will because statistics. I would just like some consistency from the program as both Stoops and RichRod had us close to the Rose Bowl but they couldn't sustain it.

What statistics state its impossible for Arizona to make a Rose Bowl? Especially given how terrible the PAC 12 is right now and should be for the next 4-6 years given how poor our TV revenues are.

We are the only remaining team from the original Big 10 and PAC 10 to have never made a Rose Bowl. Heck WSU has made two Rose bowls in the past 20 years. Its perfectly possible and reasonable to expect Arizona to make a Rose Bowl especially now a days. Utah almost made it this year and I would not call them that good of a team with any highly talented NFL guys. You know why, they have a very good coach who maximizes their talent and recruits under the radar well and has never been fired.

Consistency is good immediate goal but would not call it success. And again, if you want consistency how does Coach Sumlin provide that. He took over a Bowl Bound team, with 17 returning starters, and we failed to make a bowl in a terrible PAC 12. He was consistently average at A&M with every known advantage a program can have outside of having to play Nick Saban every year.

At Arizona it has never been done so with the currently available data the statistics say it won't happen. Kind of like the statistics that say retreads don't have success. Now I believe that Arizona can make the Rose Bowl and thus, I don't love statistics that say because others have failed then this guy will too.

Consistency is what makes a program. Sumlin took over by all accounts a talent poor program (how many draft picks did RR have) and I think they struggled implementing the system with the current roster. Without giving him a chance to recruit his players I just think it is too early to close the book. I'm just of the opinion that the talk of definite failure is too soon but I get that I'm not on the right side of your retread statistics. However, just remember that you're calling for going with the up and comer when the statistics say at Arizona they won't meet your defined level of success either.

[Newportcat]

Nice reply but while Arizona has not made it, there are plenty of examples of programs who have won their conference title when it had not been done before or in a long time.

I think WSU is a great example of that. They have made two rose bowls. We got very close twice under Tomey. It’s possible for sure but will take a great coach.

The stats that say retreads won’t be successful is so unreal if you really think about it.

Again I have never said Sumlin definitely 100% won’t be successful. But again that the chances are so slim especially at a place like Arizona and especially after this past year and especially looking at history.

It’s not a foregone conclusion and I could be totally wrong

Remember, if your looking for consistency and a chance to make a rose bowl, look at the years Smith and Tomey were here. Showed our program can be consistently decent/good with the occasional great year. And remember that both were young up and comers.

Arizona is basically fucked for football so it needs to play the odds and see what has worked for us and other programs at U of A and around the country when making coaching decisions. And hiring retreads is making a bet on absolutely terrible odds

[Chicat]

Again I have never said Sumlin definitely 100% won’t be successful.

True. Instead you keep throwing out 99.9% to hedge your take.

[DrWildcat]

Smith definitely had us going in the right direction from the looks of it (I wasn't alive yet so I don't really know). Tomey definitely had some good years but consistency is what hurt him. By consistency, I'm talking consistent 8+ win seasons. Stoops had us rising and a win over Oregon could of got us to the Rose Bowl. Then the destruction by Nebraska was the end. RichRod had us one game from the Rose Bowl too. If the Rose Bowl wasn't part of the CFP that year I believe we would have been in by default even with the blowout loss to Oregon in the PAC12 championship game.

Anyway, I'm not going to die on the Sumlin train, but I am willing to give him a chance and one year isn't a chance.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Smith definitely had us going in the right direction from the looks of it (I wasn't alive yet so I don't really know). Tomey definitely had some good years but consistency is what hurt him. By consistency, I'm talking consistent 8+ win seasons. Stoops had us rising and a win over Oregon could of got us to the Rose Bowl. Then the destruction by Nebraska was the end. RichRod had us one game from the Rose Bowl too. If the Rose Bowl wasn't part of the CFP that year I believe we would have been in by default even with the blowout loss to Oregon in the PAC12 championship game.

Anyway, I'm not going to die on the Sumlin train, but I am willing to give him a chance and one year isn't a chance.

I don't think we have a choice in his chance. I don't think we can afford to fire him right now.

He'll get a few years regardless of how those years go. As I said, I always hope we do well. I'm just not optimistic.

[PieceOfMeat]

Again outside of gene stallings with Alabama, no coach who has been fired from previous power 5 job ever won a conference title with another power 5 school.

Meant to ask this before but got busy and forgot: Is this a researched and verified tidbit of information?

It's kind of an amazing thing if true.

Totally true

Now, Coach O might buck it at LSU but I think doubtful. I think Saban and Jimbo will continue to be ahead of LSU in the SEC West

http://www.espn.com/college-football/st ... n-programs

And Coach O somehow went from Ole Miss to LSU which is a 10 times better job.

Remember with Gene Stallings too, he was fired from A&M but they struggled with the Vietnam draft big time when he was there so was not totally fair he was fired.

I think now with Les Miles hired by Kansas and Sumlin with Arizona, there have now been 21 times a previously fired Power 5 coach has been hired at a Power 5 program. We now have three of them. No other program has done it more then once. I guess we are Number 1 in something for football

I mean, that's a pretty amazing thing.

Not like college football is a new sport or anything, yet only 1 coach has managed to get fired and then succeed(get a conference champ) from one p5 school to another.

[Newportcat]

Again I have never said Sumlin definitely 100% won’t be successful.

True. Instead you keep throwing out 99.9% to hedge your take.

Ok so maybe 99.75%

Do you think think the chances are higher he takes us a Rose Bowl especially after this year and off-season has played out?

And if you do why?

[Chicat]

Again I have never said Sumlin definitely 100% won’t be successful.

True. Instead you keep throwing out 99.9% to hedge your take.

Ok so maybe 99.75%

Do you think think the chances are higher he takes us a Rose Bowl especially after this year and off-season has played out?

And if you do why?

Higher than what? 1 in 1000 (.1%)?

[Merkin]

Again outside of gene stallings with Alabama, no coach who has been fired from previous power 5 job ever won a conference title with another power 5 school.

Meant to ask this before but got busy and forgot: Is this a researched and verified tidbit of information?

It's kind of an amazing thing if true.

Totally true

Now, Coach O might buck it at LSU but I think doubtful. I think Saban and Jimbo will continue to be ahead of LSU in the SEC West

http://www.espn.com/college-football/st ... n-programs

And Coach O somehow went from Ole Miss to LSU which is a 10 times better job.

Remember with Gene Stallings too, he was fired from A&M but they struggled with the Vietnam draft big time when he was there so was not totally fair he was fired.

I think now with Les Miles hired by Kansas and Sumlin with Arizona, there have now been 21 times a previously fired Power 5 coach has been hired at a Power 5 program. We now have three of them. No other program has done it more then once. I guess we are Number 1 in something for football

I mean, that's a pretty amazing thing.

Not like college football is a new sport or anything, yet only 1 coach has managed to get fired and then succeed(get a conference champ) from one p5 school to another.

Very interesting stats.

Side note, Kansas also hired Fat Charlie who was fired by ND. ND obviously not a Power 5 school but should be included somehow.

[Newportcat]

Finally! But my god is this all so terrible Chicat. I really do expect more from you. See below

My confidence in Sumlin before this past season was based on his tenure at Houston moreso than what happened at aTm, mainly because I think Arizona Football is probably at about Houston’s level if you balance the relative strengths of the recruiting areas against the relative strengths of the conference affiliations. - Houston and Arizona are nothing alike. You should never compare a Power 5 team to a Non Power 5 team. Houston gets to play Rice every year (Screw you Legally Kenny!) and a bunch of other scrub teams with little to no resources. Its like comparing Boise State to Arizona. Not smart. There is a reason ASU dominated the WAC and then came to the PAC 10/12 and have been very average. Its called competing against USC and UCLA every year and not New Mexico and UNLV.

Also Houston is in one of the best recruiting areas in the country, Arizona is not. Its a great non-Power 5 job. Maybe the best after Central Florida. Its why a Power 5 coach just left to coach there. He can dominate. You can not dominate at Arizona in football as you have no competitive advantages over your competition.

For one thing, his offenses at Houston were really really good. For another, he had them ranked in the top 25 by the first half of his second season which is something that hadn’t happened in like 20 something years. In fact, they were ranked at least a portion of every year after his first, and had them 12-0 at one point. A third factor was that he brought Houston to such a prominent status that they ended up being able to build an entirely new stadium to accommodate all the increased fan interest. - Very true and this is why he was hired at A&M

Take out the entire aTm era for Sumlin and let’s pretend for a second we hired him straight from his tenure at Houston. Wouldn’t that render your entire argument moot? Obviously we can’t do that because aTm happened (for better or worse), but I do wonder if it’s possible that Sumlin can dial it back to the days he was coaching the Cougars in order to turn Arizona around. I hope he can. Is Sumlin the giant-killer he was at Houston or the guy who couldn’t live up to expectations in the SEC? - Really, this is your response. Lets forget 6 years of his coaching. Really, come on man. What worked at Houston again will not work at Arizona because HELLO it did not work at Texas A&M. A school that again produces the most revenue in College Football. We are talking about logic and reason and you want me to just forget 6 years of his coaching life.

As for retreads vs. up-and-comers, it sure seems like Sumlin has been both. Can a retread turn back the clock? You say no chance. But you would have said the same about a 16 seed beating a 1 seed in the tourney . . . right up until it happened, right? - Now you are making assumptions about me. This is just such an easy debate. I would have told you a 16 seed would beat a 1 seed eventually based on how College basketball works with top teams having really young teams and more parity. Also you are talking about one game, anything can happen in one game especially in the NCAA tournament.

We are talking about the history of college football where 20 coaches now have been given second chances and not one went to a worse job and ever won a conference title there. And all those guys were up and comers at one point. Could it happen sure, it could but chances are so very slim.

And again, Chicat, I told you to make a case now for Sumlin being successful, not why you thought he would be successful when he was hired.

[Newportcat]

Again I have never said Sumlin definitely 100% won’t be successful.

True. Instead you keep throwing out 99.9% to hedge your take.

Ok so maybe 99.75%

Do you think think the chances are higher he takes us a Rose Bowl especially after this year and off-season has played out?

And if you do why?

Higher than what? 1 in 1000 (.1%)?

Just curious what you think the odds would be. Like if we were betting which as you can imagine I would be more then happy to do with anyone on this.

[Newportcat]

Again outside of gene stallings with Alabama, no coach who has been fired from previous power 5 job ever won a conference title with another power 5 school.

Meant to ask this before but got busy and forgot: Is this a researched and verified tidbit of information?

It's kind of an amazing thing if true.

Totally true

Now, Coach O might buck it at LSU but I think doubtful. I think Saban and Jimbo will continue to be ahead of LSU in the SEC West

http://www.espn.com/college-football/st ... n-programs

And Coach O somehow went from Ole Miss to LSU which is a 10 times better job.

Remember with Gene Stallings too, he was fired from A&M but they struggled with the Vietnam draft big time when he was there so was not totally fair he was fired.

I think now with Les Miles hired by Kansas and Sumlin with Arizona, there have now been 21 times a previously fired Power 5 coach has been hired at a Power 5 program. We now have three of them. No other program has done it more then once. I guess we are Number 1 in something for football

I mean, that's a pretty amazing thing.

Not like college football is a new sport or anything, yet only 1 coach has managed to get fired and then succeed(get a conference champ) from one p5 school to another.

This article is from 2004...nothing has changed since then, only more facts to back up their conclusions...and how did Ron Zook and Tyrone Willingham do after getting re-hired at tougher jobs.....

https://247sports.com/college/ohio-stat ... 104155855/" target="_blank

Conclusions
The only way hiring a coach who has failed elsewhere works historically is to either give them a better situation with more resources or to view them as a short term fix on a long-term problem. While Ron Zook and Tyrone Willingham might indeed deserve another chance given their short tenures and victimization at the hands of overzealous administrators at Florida and Notre Dame, the odds are against future long-term success for either in a new job. Finally, strictly from the perspective of alumni and fans, imagine trying to excite your base of support if you are the athletic director who just hired a DiNardo, Zook, Willingham, etc. What do you say?

"Hey everyone, we found our new coach and believe he can lead us to championships! Pay no attention to his recent ugly termination and that he did not get the job done at a program much better than this one. Ignore the stark reality that he had a much better recruiting base, better facilities, etc. We believe (against all reason) that this man is the right one for State U! I know that other schools went out and hired the best and brightest young assistants. I know others went after top coaching candidates and big names. However, we just didn't see that as necessary. We have our man!"

What they are really saying is:

"While other universities are willing to pay a top echelon coach a fair wage for his field, that is not our style here. Historically we have maintained a place among the most mediocre of programs (or have fallen to the status of a mediocre program), and we think this will continue our stunning tradition of non-excellence. So – we're now going to ask you to please open up your checkbooks and help us pay him."

Actually pretty ironic conclusion

[Newportcat]

Again outside of gene stallings with Alabama, no coach who has been fired from previous power 5 job ever won a conference title with another power 5 school.

Meant to ask this before but got busy and forgot: Is this a researched and verified tidbit of information?

It's kind of an amazing thing if true.

Totally true

Now, Coach O might buck it at LSU but I think doubtful. I think Saban and Jimbo will continue to be ahead of LSU in the SEC West

http://www.espn.com/college-football/st ... n-programs

And Coach O somehow went from Ole Miss to LSU which is a 10 times better job.

Remember with Gene Stallings too, he was fired from A&M but they struggled with the Vietnam draft big time when he was there so was not totally fair he was fired.

I think now with Les Miles hired by Kansas and Sumlin with Arizona, there have now been 21 times a previously fired Power 5 coach has been hired at a Power 5 program. We now have three of them. No other program has done it more then once. I guess we are Number 1 in something for football

I mean, that's a pretty amazing thing.

Not like college football is a new sport or anything, yet only 1 coach has managed to get fired and then succeed(get a conference champ) from one p5 school to another.

Very interesting stats.

Side note, Kansas also hired Fat Charlie who was fired by ND. ND obviously not a Power 5 school but should be included somehow.

Whats interesting when you really dig into it, Rich Rod candidly is one of the best performing coaches who had been previously fired from a Power 5 job. He actually left with an overall winning record. Most like Weis and Mackovic and Willingham have been really awful at their next jobs

[Chicat]

And again, Chicat, I told you to make a case now for Sumlin being successful, not why you thought he would be successful when he was hired.

This is truly funny to me, but I think I’m done being your antidote to boredom.

Maybe someone else will debate you under the very narrow confines you allow about a team and sport you claim not to care about and in a manner you approve of, but that ain’t me homie. If you’re not actually looking to hear opinions and instead just trying to find some personal satisfaction pwning someone on the Internet, maybe just be honest about it.

Just for future reference though, simply labeling statements “sad” is not a debate style unless you’re in middle school and “I know you are but what am I” rules are in effect.

[Newportcat]

And again, Chicat, I told you to make a case now for Sumlin being successful, not why you thought he would be successful when he was hired.

This is truly funny to me, but I think I’m done being your antidote to boredom.

Maybe someone else will debate you under the very narrow confines you allow about a team and sport you claim not to care about and in a manner you approve of, but that ain’t me homie.

Just for future reference though, simply labeling statements “sad” is not a debate style unless you’re in middle school and “I know you are but what am I” rules are in effect.

Got it, so I win!

and I thought you debate points were really poor, unresearched, and clearly show a bias towards Arizona since you went to school there and your fandom causes you have to some blinders. And when did I ever say they were just Sad. I responded to each one of your points with my logic and reason.

Maybe everyone will disagree with me but you have sounded like a Trump Supporter in this debate. i ask a question, you dodge it to answer something else, then state "Lets forget those 6 years for a moment", then still don't ever answer the original question. I respond with logic and reason and you make up lies then try and bring me down using something I have already addressed and then call me a middle schooler. I am frankly surprised you didnt just call me Pocahontas and end it there.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Again I have never said Sumlin definitely 100% won’t be successful.

True. Instead you keep throwing out 99.9% to hedge your take.

Ok so maybe 99.75%

Do you think think the chances are higher he takes us a Rose Bowl especially after this year and off-season has played out?

And if you do why?

Higher than what? 1 in 1000 (.1%)?

So you're telling me there's a chance? YEAH!