Sean Miller

[PHXCATS]

It's silly to link our eval of a coach to the thing that's least predictive of actual coaching quality.

I completely agree. I think this is part of why I care so much about Pac titles. League titles are an indication of a team/program's success over an entire season. There are a lot of us here who would trade five of Miller's Pac titles for one FF. I wouldn't. I want consistent success over an extended period. I want a coach who puts us in a position to win Pac titles and advance deep in the tourney again and again, as Miller has.

PAC12 titles are overrated. All they mean is we’re the best team in a weak conference. The PAC has basically become a mid-major conference that doesn’t fully prepare us for the toughness needed to win in the NCAA tourney.

Yet the Pac continues to rate among the highest conferences turning out NBA players. Look at the rosters. The Pac is very well represented.

Were the asu team's with Harden really good? They had to be under this logic. They had a future NBA MVP on them so how did they never get to the S16 or win the conference?

[MC1983]

I don’t want Loyola of Chicago basketball history I want consistent success. Years of nothing and than a final four no thanks.

[MC1983]

It's silly to link our eval of a coach to the thing that's least predictive of actual coaching quality.

I completely agree. I think this is part of why I care so much about Pac titles. League titles are an indication of a team/program's success over an entire season. There are a lot of us here who would trade five of Miller's Pac titles for one FF. I wouldn't. I want consistent success over an extended period. I want a coach who puts us in a position to win Pac titles and advance deep in the tourney again and again, as Miller has.

PAC12 titles are overrated. All they mean is we’re the best team in a weak conference. The PAC has basically become a mid-major conference that doesn’t fully prepare us for the toughness needed to win in the NCAA tourney.

Yet the Pac continues to rate among the highest conferences turning out NBA players. Look at the rosters. The Pac is very well represented.

Were the asu team's with Harden really good? They had to be under this logic. They had a future NBA MVP on them so how did they never get to the S16 or win the conference?

It’s ASU that’s all that needs to be said.

[Newportcat]

My biggest fear with Miller is the Dick Tomey syndrome. You have a coach who takes your program to good, very respectable levels but is not perfect and has flaws. Over time those flaws seem to be so glaring that people get bored when they see them and they don't change. So people force change for the sake of change because "He has not taken us to a Rose Bowl"

Not necessarily everyone on this site, but if you read other comments by Arizona fans and from talking with my college buddies, its clear everyone is in this, Final Four or bust mentality over the next 2 seasons. If we do not make a Final Four in 2020 or 2021 I think drum beat by a lot of fans will be VERY LOUD. I am not saying we give Miller a lifetime contract, I am saying a lot of fans do not see the massive downsides to moving on from Miller. They think its easy to find the next Lute. I think its much easier to find the next Ben Lindsey.

Anyone remember that local news broadcast after we lost in the S16 to Xavier where the female reporter is at a local bar discussing the game live and some dude comes up and screams "FUCK SEAN MILLER?" There are tons of those fans out there.

Yes, same fans saying the same thing after Tomey lost to ASU in 2000.

"There is no way we could hire a worse coach then Tomey. We need someone who can bring a better offensive system in place. Its been 13 years and No Rose Bowl. He can not win the big game. Tomey and his defensive first system and long term assistant coaches are too boring. Joe Arizona...screw that. I want someone more flashy who will bring our program into the 21st century...Tomey just does not believe in offense, so frustrating...He hit is peak a couple years back....it could never get worse then this boring ass football...We need something different...WE NEED CHANGE"



Hold my beer

[zonagrad]

It's silly to link our eval of a coach to the thing that's least predictive of actual coaching quality.

I completely agree. I think this is part of why I care so much about Pac titles. League titles are an indication of a team/program's success over an entire season. There are a lot of us here who would trade five of Miller's Pac titles for one FF. I wouldn't. I want consistent success over an extended period. I want a coach who puts us in a position to win Pac titles and advance deep in the tourney again and again, as Miller has.

PAC12 titles are overrated. All they mean is we’re the best team in a weak conference. The PAC has basically become a mid-major conference that doesn’t fully prepare us for the toughness needed to win in the NCAA tourney.

Yet the Pac continues to rate among the highest conferences turning out NBA players. Look at the rosters. The Pac is very well represented.

Were the asu team's with Harden really good? They had to be under this logic. They had a future NBA MVP on them so how did they never get to the S16 or win the conference?

Because they had a shitty coach who consistently under scheduled. And UCLA had a ton of NBA talent on their way to three straight FFs.

So no, the Harden teams weren't really good. They finished 3rd in Harden's sophomore year. What's your point? Stanford had the Lopez twins. UW had Isiah Thomas & Quincy Pondexter (2 NBA'ers).

Maybe if the rest of the conference scheduled tougher in the non-conference we'd see some better results in March.
I give ASU some credit under Hurley for at least making an effort.

[KingG]

I don’t know if it’s poor coaching, weak non conference scheduling or just general lack of toughness. The PAC used to be a much stronger basketball conference from top to bottom. I mean, in 97 we finished fifth in the conference. We were battle tested for the tourney that year. I’m okay with finishing fifth every year if it makes us a better team.

[Captain Obvious]

To be clear, I'd say the bar for next season is as follows:

-Pac champs
-Pac tourney (reach the final game)
-E8 or better

I get that people are going to say it has to be "F4 or better," but I think that's unfair.

Those are conservative yet realistic expectations for Arizona. F4 or better isn't an unfair expectation at all. Miller will be in his 11th or 12th year. His window to break through is fading quickly IMHO. As far as I'm concerned it's time to shit or get off the pot. Fans don't want excuses; they want results.

Those are only "conservative" expectations to a spoiled fan, imo. Pac champs and an E8 or better is a very good season. I agree with those who've said in this thread that winning a single E8 game is not the difference between a great coach and merely a good one. If you can look at Miller's body of work at AZ and feel "let down," you're probably a tad joyless.

Look, we all want a F4. But do I want one so bad that I'd turn on a coach who's produced as much as Miller has? F*** no.

Miller is paid very well to 'produce' and has had a plethora of talented players he's underutilized. I categorize Miller as a very good coach who is a better recruiter at the present. He just has to adjust his coaching style so he can get the most out of the talent he works so hard to recruit. His lack of flexibility will continue to be his undoing unless he evolves and allows his top players to play to their strengths. What I will say is we will never find a harder working coach than Miller and I hope we don't have to. I appreciate his effort and am grateful for the success he has maintained with the program.

[pc in NM]

I don’t know if it’s poor coaching, weak non conference scheduling or just general lack of toughness. The PAC used to be a much stronger basketball conference from top to bottom. I mean, in 97 we finished fifth in the conference. We were battle tested for the tourney that year. I’m okay with finishing fifth every year if it makes us a better team.

If your memory of that ‘96-‘97 season were accurate and complete, you’d remember that that team lost it’s last two games in the Bay Area, and that even more fans then were explicitly calling for Lute’s head on a platter than this discussion would suggest might consider getting rid of Miller.

The life of a sports fan can be repeatedly frustrating. The NCAA tournament ends in disappointment for all but one team every season. And, for competitive teams, that disappointment is as often due to an unfortunate match-up, or an off-night, as anything else.

Disappointment is a bitch. But, converting it to anger or resentment is more often a consequence of combination with entitlement than anything else....

[KingG]

I don’t know if it’s poor coaching, weak non conference scheduling or just general lack of toughness. The PAC used to be a much stronger basketball conference from top to bottom. I mean, in 97 we finished fifth in the conference. We were battle tested for the tourney that year. I’m okay with finishing fifth every year if it makes us a better team.

If your memory of that ‘96-‘97 season were accurate and complete, you’d remember that that team lost it’s last two games in the Bay Area, and that even more fans then were explicitly calling for Lute’s head on a platter than this discussion would suggest might consider getting rid of Miller.

The life of a sports fan can be repeatedly frustrating. The NCAA tournament ends in disappointment for all but one team every season. And, for competitive teams, that disappointment is as often due to an unfortunate match-up, or an off-night, as anything else.

Disappointment is a bitch. But, converting it to anger or resentment is more often a consequence of combination with entitlement than anything else....

Absolutely I recall losing those last two games at cal and ford, and limping into the tourney. But man were we battle tested that season. Four PAC10 teams made it to the sweet sixteen.

[ChooChooCat]

My biggest fear with Miller is the Dick Tomey syndrome. You have a coach who takes your program to good, very respectable levels but is not perfect and has flaws. Over time those flaws seem to be so glaring that people get bored when they see them and they don't change. So people force change for the sake of change because "He has not taken us to a Rose Bowl"

Not necessarily everyone on this site, but if you read other comments by Arizona fans and from talking with my college buddies, its clear everyone is in this, Final Four or bust mentality over the next 2 seasons. If we do not make a Final Four in 2020 or 2021 I think drum beat by a lot of fans will be VERY LOUD. I am not saying we give Miller a lifetime contract, I am saying a lot of fans do not see the massive downsides to moving on from Miller. They think its easy to find the next Lute. I think its much easier to find the next Ben Lindsey.

Anyone remember that local news broadcast after we lost in the S16 to Xavier where the female reporter is at a local bar discussing the game live and some dude comes up and screams "FUCK SEAN MILLER?" There are tons of those fans out there.

Yes, same fans saying the same thing after Tomey lost to ASU in 2000.

"There is no way we could hire a worse coach then Tomey. We need someone who can bring a better offensive system in place. Its been 13 years and No Rose Bowl. He can not win the big game. Tomey and his defensive first system and long term assistant coaches are too boring. Joe Arizona...screw that. I want someone more flashy who will bring our program into the 21st century...Tomey just does not believe in offense, so frustrating...He hit is peak a couple years back....it could never get worse then this boring ass football...We need something different...WE NEED CHANGE"



Hold my beer

Lol well played. Say it with me though, Arizona Basketball is not Arizona Football. Whoever our next coach is may not be even as good as Miller in the end, but Arizona basketball would never hire a retread or an assistant coach to be its head man. At worst it'd be an accomplished coach at a smaller school like Sean Miller.

[Newportcat]

I know, I was being funny. We should be able to hire a good coach like a Chris Beard. I just do not see us getting a home run hire like Mark Few or Billy Donovan. So anyone we hire is going to have more risk then even when we hired Lute Olson. Because I just do not see us hiring a coach that has been a consistent winner, has made a final four, and has strong west coast connections so will carry risk.

The respect I have for Cedric Dempsey is insane for pulling in Lute because he was then and would even be today the perfect hire.

But you are totally right, Arizona basketball is 10000000 times a better job then Arizona football's head coach for too many reasons to write. Many great coaches would answer the phone if we called and probably listen closely. If Arizona football called even good coaches...

[ByJoveByJingle]

Lol well played. Say it with me though, Arizona Basketball is not Arizona Football. Whoever our next coach is may not be even as good as Miller in the end, but Arizona basketball would never hire a retread or an assistant coach to be its head man. At worst it'd be an accomplished coach at a smaller school like Sean Miller.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Lol well played. Say it with me though, Arizona Basketball is not Arizona Football. Whoever our next coach is may not be even as good as Miller in the end, but Arizona basketball would never hire a retread or an assistant coach to be its head man. At worst it'd be an accomplished coach at a smaller school like Sean Miller.

That's exactly who I think of every time I question Sean Miller.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Haha yeah. And he turned us down!! Not to mention what we had to do to secure Miller in the first place.

People will say, yeah but that was then, this is now and we have proved we aren’t a one coach program (despite the fact that we are talking about letting go the guy who proved we aren’t a one coach program). But we also didn’t have the FBI fallout hanging over the program last time, either. Pretty sure those two items cancel each other out. Which puts us back to praying Scheer is hiding in a bush as we try to hire a retread from USC and Iowa State.

[ChooChooCat]

Lol well played. Say it with me though, Arizona Basketball is not Arizona Football. Whoever our next coach is may not be even as good as Miller in the end, but Arizona basketball would never hire a retread or an assistant coach to be its head man. At worst it'd be an accomplished coach at a smaller school like Sean Miller.

1. At the time he wasn't a retread. A retread is a guy who had been fired by his last college job I.E. Rich Rod or Kevin Sumlin.

2. At the time Arizona was debatable in regards to how much overall success you can have there. Was it all because of Lute or is there enough in the program where others can win big? Miller proved it wasn't a one coach program. We're in a different spot now than we were in 2008.

[ByJoveByJingle]

(2) Haha, see post above.

(1) And yes, he was most definitely a retread. While I accept your narrow definition of retread as being a subset of retreadhood, it’s not the only path to retreadiness. Having mild success at a mediocre school then being hired to another mediocre school and having mild success there is another path to being a retread. (Not to mention his career arc post-Arizona spurned offer).

[ChooChooCat]

Haha yeah. And he turned us down!! Not to mention what we had to do to secure Miller in the first place.

People will say, yeah but that was then, this is now and we have proved we aren’t a one coach program (despite the fact that we are talking about letting go the guy who proved we aren’t a one coach program). But we also didn’t have the FBI fallout hanging over the program last time, either. Pretty sure those two items cancel each other out. Which puts us back to praying Scheer is hiding in a bush as we try to hire a retread from USC and Iowa State.

Do they? We have the FBI fallout over our head and we landed the #1 recruiting class in the country. Now of course Miller deserves all the credit in the world for that, but is the FBI that much of a hindrance? Can we say that with a straight face especially with what we know about the case now? Come on.

[ChooChooCat]

(2) Haha, see post above.

(1) And yes, he was most definitely a retread. While I accept your narrow definition of retread as being a subset of retreadhood, it’s not the only path to retreadiness. Having mild success at a mediocre school then being hired to another mediocre school and having mild success there is another path to being a retread. (Not to mention his career arc post-Arizona spurned offer).

Lol Floyd would've been a disastrous hire no question, but he wasn't a retread. Being fired by a NBA team isn't a retread, unless of course you consider Calipari and Pitino retreads. Either way that had every thing to do with Livengood's incompetence more than anything else. Miller should've been the target over him ten fold. The issue Arizona was at in 2008 (one coach program and TOTAL MASSIVE REBUILD) is not the same issue we'd have this year, next year, year after, etc. We will never be a 3 coaches in 3 years program any time soon again.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Do they? We have the FBI fallout over our head and we landed the #1 recruiting class in the country. Now of course Miller deserves all the credit in the world for that, but is the FBI that much of a hindrance? Can we say that with a straight face especially with what we know about the case now? Come on.

It’s not the FBI we are worried about, it’s the NCAA . . . and yeah, I’m worried about it despite landing the (currently) #1 class. Only a fool wouldn’t be worried. And a non-retread from a presumably top program wouldn’t be foolish enough to not take that into consideration.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Let’s see who UCLA ends up with after deploying their vastly superior resources. People are reporting that they are willing to pay $5+ million per year to a new coach.

[Chicat]

Do they? We have the FBI fallout over our head and we landed the #1 recruiting class in the country. Now of course Miller deserves all the credit in the world for that, but is the FBI that much of a hindrance? Can we say that with a straight face especially with what we know about the case now? Come on.

How good was our ‘18 class?

“Hindrance” seems like a nice way to put it.

[Newportcat]

Let’s see who UCLA ends up with after deploying their vastly superior resources. People are reporting that they are willing to pay $5+ million per year to a new coach.

Does UCLA really have vastly superior resources to us now? I kind of think we are about on par resource wise

I mean Miller already makes $4M per year

[ChooChooCat]

Do they? We have the FBI fallout over our head and we landed the #1 recruiting class in the country. Now of course Miller deserves all the credit in the world for that, but is the FBI that much of a hindrance? Can we say that with a straight face especially with what we know about the case now? Come on.

How good was our ‘18 class?

“Hindrance” seems like a nice way to put it.

The point is the damage has been done, we're past it, and it wouldn't affect a potential coaching hire in the slightest.

[ChooChooCat]

Do they? We have the FBI fallout over our head and we landed the #1 recruiting class in the country. Now of course Miller deserves all the credit in the world for that, but is the FBI that much of a hindrance? Can we say that with a straight face especially with what we know about the case now? Come on.

It’s not the FBI we are worried about, it’s the NCAA . . . and yeah, I’m worried about it despite landing the (currently) #1 class. Only a fool wouldn’t be worried. And a non-retread from a presumably top program wouldn’t be foolish enough to not take that into consideration.

Consider me a fool then.

[ChooChooCat]

Let’s see who UCLA ends up with after deploying their vastly superior resources. People are reporting that they are willing to pay $5+ million per year to a new coach.

It's Dan Guerrero making the hire, he's bound to fuck it up even if Billy Donovan fell in his lap.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Let’s see who UCLA ends up with after deploying their vastly superior resources. People are reporting that they are willing to pay $5+ million per year to a new coach.

Does UCLA really have vastly superior resources to us now? I kind of think we are about on par resource wise

I mean Miller already makes $4M per year

Didn’t you say we can’t afford to fire our defensive coordinator?

[ByJoveByJingle]

Do they? We have the FBI fallout over our head and we landed the #1 recruiting class in the country. Now of course Miller deserves all the credit in the world for that, but is the FBI that much of a hindrance? Can we say that with a straight face especially with what we know about the case now? Come on.

How good was our ‘18 class?

“Hindrance” seems like a nice way to put it.

The point is the damage has been done, we're past it, and it wouldn't affect a potential coaching hire in the slightest.

The NCAA hasn’t stepped in yet. I don’t see how you can confidently say we are past the danger.

[PHXCATS]

Do they? We have the FBI fallout over our head and we landed the #1 recruiting class in the country. Now of course Miller deserves all the credit in the world for that, but is the FBI that much of a hindrance? Can we say that with a straight face especially with what we know about the case now? Come on.

It’s not the FBI we are worried about, it’s the NCAA . . . and yeah, I’m worried about it despite landing the (currently) #1 class. Only a fool wouldn’t be worried. And a non-retread from a presumably top program wouldn’t be foolish enough to not take that into consideration.

Consider me a fool then.

Question. How many NCAA violations were revealed from trustworthy sources that involve Arizona?

I am a fool I suppose because I am not worried in the slightest

[Spaceman Spiff]

Do they? We have the FBI fallout over our head and we landed the #1 recruiting class in the country. Now of course Miller deserves all the credit in the world for that, but is the FBI that much of a hindrance? Can we say that with a straight face especially with what we know about the case now? Come on.

How good was our ‘18 class?

“Hindrance” seems like a nice way to put it.

22nd nationally with 3 four stars according to 24/7. For what we dealt with, actually pretty dang good.

[ChooChooCat]

Do they? We have the FBI fallout over our head and we landed the #1 recruiting class in the country. Now of course Miller deserves all the credit in the world for that, but is the FBI that much of a hindrance? Can we say that with a straight face especially with what we know about the case now? Come on.

How good was our ‘18 class?

“Hindrance” seems like a nice way to put it.

The point is the damage has been done, we're past it, and it wouldn't affect a potential coaching hire in the slightest.

The NCAA hasn’t stepped in yet. I don’t see how you can confidently say we are past the danger.

[RawleArenas]

I know, I was being funny. We should be able to hire a good coach like a Chris Beard. I just do not see us getting a home run hire like Mark Few or Billy Donovan. So anyone we hire is going to have more risk then even when we hired Lute Olson. Because I just do not see us hiring a coach that has been a consistent winner, has made a final four, and has strong west coast connections so will carry risk.

The respect I have for Cedric Dempsey is insane for pulling in Lute because he was then and would even be today the perfect hire.

But you are totally right, Arizona basketball is 10000000 times a better job then Arizona football's head coach for too many reasons to write. Many great coaches would answer the phone if we called and probably listen closely. If Arizona football called even good coaches...

I'm in the minority opinion on Mark Few. He's got a nice thing going for him in his conference. From a completely cynical perspective, all he has to do is put together a top 15 class of Euro dudes, have a signature win in non conference, and then steamroll the WCC. Few is 1-3 against ranked opponents this year, and is coasting in the top 10 with what the posters on this site call a 'trash' league.

If Few was in the Big 12 or ACC, his accomplishments would be FAR more impressive if maintained the same record. My gut tells me Gonzaga would be middle of the pack in a strong conference. Also, guys like Musselman and Few run very different programs than we do. Few relies on Euro players and Musselman heavily relies on transfers. Arizona would fundamentally have to change from a program that to adjust to their system of program building. We would not see the likes of Ayton or AG or Stanley. The program would be a raisin bran version of itself, with no guarantees of tournament success.

I believe most Arizona fans don't understand how hard it is to win Pac titles and tourney titles. If Hurley, Enfield or Mike Hopkins won back to back tourney and conference titles, they would be negotiating major contract extensions.

[Newportcat]

Let’s see who UCLA ends up with after deploying their vastly superior resources. People are reporting that they are willing to pay $5+ million per year to a new coach.

Does UCLA really have vastly superior resources to us now? I kind of think we are about on par resource wise

I mean Miller already makes $4M per year

Didn’t you say we can’t afford to fire our defensive coordinator?

Totally different situation. Let’s say Miller left after this year, and billy Donovan said it would take $5M a year to come here, cole and Jeannie Davis would step up and help fund the difference. Or Jeff Stevens would. Or a multitude of other donors. Fuck I would probably write a check towards it.

Because it’s Arizona basketball and we can not afford to lose the revenues our program generates since they are critical to our overall success as an athletic department.

Now Miller isn’t leaving so I think it’s a non issue. But you have proven boosters with Arizona basketball wiling to write checks. Arizona football....no one is writing a check right now related to Sumlin as it’s throwing good money after bad especially after donors just helped fire rich Rod and look what they got for that.

Miller is 6th highest paid coach in the country, money will never be a major issue for us regarding the head basketball coach. We can’t pay duke or Kentucky money but pretty close to everyone else

[ByJoveByJingle]

Fair enough. But the point still stands: there are more top tier programs than top tier coaches. It’s inverse musical chairs . . . where some chairs aren’t going to be lucky enough to be filled (with quality coaches). I personally don’t want to be an empty chair in these times.

[ChooChooCat]

Fair enough. But the point still stands: there are more top tier programs than top tier coaches. It’s inverse musical chairs . . . where some chairs aren’t going to be lucky enough to be filled (with quality coaches). I personally don’t want to be an empty chair in these times.

We wouldn't be an empty chair for christ's sakes.

Look this whole conversation is based on a massive what if that I doubt with every fiber of my being even happens, but more something that could arguably be explored if enough negative things occur within a slotted time period. Sean Miller's team next year will have a successful season, I'm sure of that, how successful who knows, but we won't be ailing like we are this year. In 2020 I'm sure the man will put together another top 5 recruiting class (he already leads for a 5* wing) and it's all for moot. It's just a fun what if convo to have. However, the pussyfooting about how Arizona could never hope to hire someone who would have more success than Sean Miller has had is just blatantly dumb. If you look at the current top 25, Arizona could hire literally a good 2/3 if not more of the coaches of those teams to be its next head coach if it just snapped its fingers at this very moment. To say differently is having your head in the god damn sand. I will concede it wasn't that way in 2008 and we have to thank Sean Miller greatly for our current position of strength on the market place, but it is that way now. Embrace it.

[ByJoveByJingle]

You misunderstand the point. ASU was in the Top 25. Would you recommend hiring Bobby Hurley? As you have pointed out Arizona should be too good to have to hire a coach whose team happens to be in the Top 25 at any given moment. People have made lists of coaches who meet the criteria that Arizona (or UCLA) deserves . . . Breaking news—none of those coaches would come to Arizona anymore than they would go to UCLA. They are already in equal or better situations. This is the fundamental problem. How often do you get a Roy Williams leaving Kansas for Carolina? Almost never. Pitino and Calipari had to try and fail in the NBA to move on to lesser or equal schools.

I agree this isn’t going to be a real problem anytime soon. But clearly some people feel we can hire a better coach who can break down a zone better than Miller and who doesn’t mysteriously stand in the way of his best players from excelling on the court. And really that’s the point that I have a hard time getting past. There are people who truly think we can do better than Miller. Perhaps you are one of them. I don’t know. But I don’t think we can do better. Not because there aren’t better, more proven coaches . . . but because I don’t think we can get one of those coaches to come to Arizona in the absence of some underlying issue that we can’t foresee (e.g. Lute being unhappy in Iowa).

[ChooChooCat]

You misunderstand the point. ASU was in the Top 25. Would you recommend hiring Bobby Hurley? As you have pointed out Arizona should be too good to have to hire a coach whose team happens to be in the Top 25 at any given moment.

I'm not saying Arizona would want any top 25 coach, just merely making the point that there are numerous successful and namely up and coming coaches with similar resumes to Sean Miller at the time we hired him that Arizona could hire today. Hurley ain't in the top 25 any more now is he?

People have made lists of coaches who meet the criteria that Arizona (or UCLA) deserves . . . Breaking news—none of those coaches would come to Arizona anymore than they would go to UCLA. They are already in equal or better situations. This is the fundamental problem. How often do you get a Roy Williams leaving Kansas for Carolina? Almost never. Pitino and Calipari had to try and fail in the NBA to move on to lesser or equal schools.

Who are these said people? Would they have hired Sean Miller in 2008? No? Who cares. No one said Arizona had to or would land a coach in an equal or better situation. It wouldn't even make sense unless a particular coach was an alum or worked at Arizona previously, kinda like oh Roy Williams at UNC. As far as coaches failing in the NBA and coming back to college, you don't think that say if Billy Donovan failed as a NBA coach and Arizona was the best job on the market that we wouldn't land him? Ok.

I agree this isn’t going to be a real problem anytime soon. But clearly some people feel we can hire a better coach who can break down a zone better than Miller and who doesn’t mysteriously stand in the way of his best players from excelling on the court. And really that’s the point that I have a hard time getting past. There are people who truly think we can do better than Miller. Perhaps you are one of them. I don’t know. But I don’t think we can do better. Not because there aren’t better, more proven coaches . . . but because I don’t think we can get one of those coaches to come to Arizona in the absence of some underlying issue that we can’t foresee (e.g. Lute being unhappy in Iowa).

I think like most coaches Sean Miller has his strengths and his flaws and quite frankly both can be overly glaring at times. I'm for a healthy mutually beneficial relationship in regards to my coach and my program. The second one party stops being beneficial to the other is the second that a parting of the ways would make sense, which was the crux of my thought that it could be possible Arizona and Miller could split ways not now, not next year, but in a few years down the line. Now as far as doing better than Miller goes you obviously have a very distinct definition of such, which would be Calipari, Williams, Coach K, etc., and that type of level, which is a ridiculously simplistic way to look at it. You honestly don't think Arizona could get the coach at Texas Tech if it wanted for instance? How about the coach at NC State? Virginia Tech? Marquette? NEVADA? I'm just naming off teams in the top 25 right now, but you see what I'm getting at. Now those coaches by your definition may not be more proven or obviously better (at the moment), but those are all coaches with similar resumes to Sean Miller at the time we hired him and with our resources and brand recognition they'd obviously recruit better than they do now, while still doing all the things they've done coaching wise to have themselves a top 25 team. Would that be better than Miller? Maybe, maybe not, but most assuredly they at the very least would be similar with just maybe the ability of getting us over the hump.

[ByJoveByJingle]

So despite some intransigence and miscommunication, we basically agree: Arizona won’t attract a top tier coach to replace Miller, but it can attract a coach who may or may not be better than Miller. A gamble, in other words. Every coaching change costs something. It costs money. It costs time. It costs flexibility to make future hires. Therefore logic would dictate you only make a move unless you know you have somebody better waiting, or if you are forced to make a move. It’s not the worth the gamble in the hopes that you will find somebody who is better than the 5th fastest coach to 500 career wins.

As a postscript, I didn’t say we couldn’t land a failed NBA coach. But it would have to be a failed NBA coach. No NBA coach in his right mind would leave the NBA for the NCAA. My point was that one of the paths for top tier college coaches to take a step down is via a failed trip to the NBA. And of the former college coaches in the NBA, we’d only want Donovan or Stephens. Stephens ain’t failing, and really, neither is Donovan. So I don’t see them being available anytime soon. Maybe I’ll look back at that statement 3 months from now with him ensconced at UCLA . . . but I seriously doubt it.

[RawleArenas]

Fair enough. But the point still stands: there are more top tier programs than top tier coaches. It’s inverse musical chairs . . . where some chairs aren’t going to be lucky enough to be filled (with quality coaches). I personally don’t want to be an empty chair in these times.

^^^this^^^ is a point rarely made by those wanting a coaching change. Furthermore, being the coach of Arizona basketball is much bigger than just winning tournament games. Miller's pedigree is very hard to match with his background as a top level college guard, his record of success coaching USA basketball and his extensive coaching connections with his brother at Indiana and growing up with Calipari. I can't think of anyone available who could bring those things to the table in addition to putting guys like Kadeem and TJ into the league. There's really no comparison.

[ChooChooCat]

So despite some intransigence and miscommunication, we basically agree: Arizona won’t attract a top tier coach to replace Miller, but it can attract a coach who may or may not be better than Miller. A gamble, in other words. Every coaching change costs something. It costs money. It costs time. It costs flexibility to make future hires. Therefore logic would dictate you only make a move unless you know you have somebody better waiting, or if you are forced to make a move. It’s not the worth the gamble in the hopes that you will find somebody who is better than the 5th fastest coach to 500 career wins.

As a postscript, I didn’t say we couldn’t land a failed NBA coach. But it would have to be a failed NBA coach. No NBA coach in his right mind would leave the NBA for the NCAA. My point was that one of the paths for top tier college coaches to take a step down is via a failed trip to the NBA. And of the former college coaches in the NBA, we’d only want Donovan or Stephens. Stephens ain’t failing, and really, neither is Donovan. So I don’t see them being available anytime soon. Maybe I’ll look back at that statement 3 months from now with him ensconced at UCLA . . . but I seriously doubt it.

Yeah ultimately there's two ways to look at this: 1. Be terrified of change, which considering the climate of college sports is perfectly acceptable, or 2. Be welcoming of change and the positives it could bring.

Either way at this moment there's no need for change. We may have to circle around in another few years on this topic though.

[pc in NM]

So despite some intransigence and miscommunication, we basically agree: Arizona won’t attract a top tier coach to replace Miller, but it can attract a coach who may or may not be better than Miller. A gamble, in other words. Every coaching change costs something. It costs money. It costs time. It costs flexibility to make future hires. Therefore logic would dictate you only make a move unless you know you have somebody better waiting, or if you are forced to make a move. It’s not the worth the gamble in the hopes that you will find somebody who is better than the 5th fastest coach to 500 career wins.

As a postscript, I didn’t say we couldn’t land a failed NBA coach. But it would have to be a failed NBA coach. No NBA coach in his right mind would leave the NBA for the NCAA. My point was that one of the paths for top tier college coaches to take a step down is via a failed trip to the NBA. And of the former college coaches in the NBA, we’d only want Donovan or Stephens. Stephens ain’t failing, and really, neither is Donovan. So I don’t see them being available anytime soon. Maybe I’ll look back at that statement 3 months from now with him ensconced at UCLA . . . but I seriously doubt it.

Yeah ultimately there's two ways to look at this: 1. Be terrified of change, which considering the climate of college sports is perfectly acceptable, or 2. Be welcoming of change and the positives it could bring.

Either way at this moment there's no need for change. We may have to circle around in another few years on this topic though.

"Change", you say....

1. Recruiting - only way to "change" is negative...

2. Overall record - little room for improvement; lots of room to decline

3. Conference record - ditto #2 above

4. Tourney record - relative the the rest of the country, ditto #2 above

5. Final Fours - room for "improvement"....

6. NC's - we've only ever won one, and that with one of Lute's lesser teams. Only a hope, not an "expectation"

[goslingswagg]

Fair enough. But the point still stands: there are more top tier programs than top tier coaches. It’s inverse musical chairs . . . where some chairs aren’t going to be lucky enough to be filled (with quality coaches). I personally don’t want to be an empty chair in these times.

We wouldn't be an empty chair for christ's sakes.

Look this whole conversation is based on a massive what if that I doubt with every fiber of my being even happens, but more something that could arguably be explored if enough negative things occur within a slotted time period. Sean Miller's team next year will have a successful season, I'm sure of that, how successful who knows, but we won't be ailing like we are this year. In 2020 I'm sure the man will put together another top 5 recruiting class (he already leads for a 5* wing) and it's all for moot. It's just a fun what if convo to have. However, the pussyfooting about how Arizona could never hope to hire someone who would have more success than Sean Miller has had is just blatantly dumb. If you look at the current top 25, Arizona could hire literally a good 2/3 if not more of the coaches of those teams to be its next head coach if it just snapped its fingers at this very moment. To say differently is having your head in the god damn sand. I will concede it wasn't that way in 2008 and we have to thank Sean Miller greatly for our current position of strength on the market place, but it is that way now. Embrace it.

Beauchamp or Christopher?

[ChooChooCat]

So despite some intransigence and miscommunication, we basically agree: Arizona won’t attract a top tier coach to replace Miller, but it can attract a coach who may or may not be better than Miller. A gamble, in other words. Every coaching change costs something. It costs money. It costs time. It costs flexibility to make future hires. Therefore logic would dictate you only make a move unless you know you have somebody better waiting, or if you are forced to make a move. It’s not the worth the gamble in the hopes that you will find somebody who is better than the 5th fastest coach to 500 career wins.

As a postscript, I didn’t say we couldn’t land a failed NBA coach. But it would have to be a failed NBA coach. No NBA coach in his right mind would leave the NBA for the NCAA. My point was that one of the paths for top tier college coaches to take a step down is via a failed trip to the NBA. And of the former college coaches in the NBA, we’d only want Donovan or Stephens. Stephens ain’t failing, and really, neither is Donovan. So I don’t see them being available anytime soon. Maybe I’ll look back at that statement 3 months from now with him ensconced at UCLA . . . but I seriously doubt it.

Yeah ultimately there's two ways to look at this: 1. Be terrified of change, which considering the climate of college sports is perfectly acceptable, or 2. Be welcoming of change and the positives it could bring.

Either way at this moment there's no need for change. We may have to circle around in another few years on this topic though.

"Change", you say....

1. Recruiting - only way to "change" is negative...

2. Overall record - little room for improvement; lots of room to decline

3. Conference record - ditto #2 above

4. Tourney record - relative the the rest of the country, ditto #2 above

5. Final Fours - room for "improvement"....

6. NC's - we've only ever won one, and that with one of Lute's lesser teams. Only a hope, not an "expectation"

All excellent points my man, which is why I said being terrified of change is totally acceptable.

[Newportcat]

The point on mark few above is very fair. I look at Gonzaga like Boise state football.

Now Peterson left Boise state and has done a very good job with Washington. But Koetter and Dan Hawkins both didn’t do anything after leaving Boise state.

I tend to believe Mark Few would be an awesome hire for any west coast program but he also has had the luxury of dominating like Boise state football has dominated a smaller weaker conference that have 10% of the resources. No different then say Houston football too which is a great job compared to its competition(had to get a Sumlin dig in)

He is a bit more risky then a Billy Donavan as Billy has proven he can win in a big conference.

But you also could make the argument Mark Few might recruit a helluva lot better at a place like Arizona which would be potentially scary.

But again, I don’t think few is leaving Gonzaga anytime soon if ever.

[ChooChooCat]

Fair enough. But the point still stands: there are more top tier programs than top tier coaches. It’s inverse musical chairs . . . where some chairs aren’t going to be lucky enough to be filled (with quality coaches). I personally don’t want to be an empty chair in these times.

We wouldn't be an empty chair for christ's sakes.

Look this whole conversation is based on a massive what if that I doubt with every fiber of my being even happens, but more something that could arguably be explored if enough negative things occur within a slotted time period. Sean Miller's team next year will have a successful season, I'm sure of that, how successful who knows, but we won't be ailing like we are this year. In 2020 I'm sure the man will put together another top 5 recruiting class (he already leads for a 5* wing) and it's all for moot. It's just a fun what if convo to have. However, the pussyfooting about how Arizona could never hope to hire someone who would have more success than Sean Miller has had is just blatantly dumb. If you look at the current top 25, Arizona could hire literally a good 2/3 if not more of the coaches of those teams to be its next head coach if it just snapped its fingers at this very moment. To say differently is having your head in the god damn sand. I will concede it wasn't that way in 2008 and we have to thank Sean Miller greatly for our current position of strength on the market place, but it is that way now. Embrace it.

Beauchamp or Christopher?

Beauchamp.

I honestly don't have a good read on Christopher, but I always got the sense he was headed for outside of Pac-12 country.

[Newportcat]

What terrifies me is Miller gets us to a Final four and then leaves. I think good chance that happens especially once a marquee east coast job opens up. I just have never gotten the sense he is a Tucson lifer like Lute.

I have confidence we would hire a great coach at the time as we do have a great program with a lot of structural benefits over many programs out there but it would carry risk and I just envision Miller having a great career over the next 20 years.

My gut tells me this is what happens too and all the assholes (like I used to be) who bitch and complain about not making final fours feel so stupid.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Fair enough. But the point still stands: there are more top tier programs than top tier coaches. It’s inverse musical chairs . . . where some chairs aren’t going to be lucky enough to be filled (with quality coaches). I personally don’t want to be an empty chair in these times.

We wouldn't be an empty chair for christ's sakes.

Look this whole conversation is based on a massive what if that I doubt with every fiber of my being even happens, but more something that could arguably be explored if enough negative things occur within a slotted time period. Sean Miller's team next year will have a successful season, I'm sure of that, how successful who knows, but we won't be ailing like we are this year. In 2020 I'm sure the man will put together another top 5 recruiting class (he already leads for a 5* wing) and it's all for moot. It's just a fun what if convo to have. However, the pussyfooting about how Arizona could never hope to hire someone who would have more success than Sean Miller has had is just blatantly dumb. If you look at the current top 25, Arizona could hire literally a good 2/3 if not more of the coaches of those teams to be its next head coach if it just snapped its fingers at this very moment. To say differently is having your head in the god damn sand. I will concede it wasn't that way in 2008 and we have to thank Sean Miller greatly for our current position of strength on the market place, but it is that way now. Embrace it.

I disagree in this hypothetical. The first point I'd make is that simply landing a good coach is no guarantee. A good coach can fail in a situation that's just a bad fit.

Look at Rick Barnes and Texas/Tennessee. He's proven he knows what he's doing, but struggled on his way out of Texas. Same with Ben Howland.

Next, we like to think programs with leverage land good coaches. Look at recent history of high profile programs. UCLA and Alford. Indiana and Archie Miller. Louisville and Chris Mack. I'm not hating on Mack or Miller, but their best case scenario is what Sean Miller did here.

And that's how I see it. Replacing Miller is maybe a 25% chance at a lateral move and a 75% chance of a downgrade.

[ChooChooCat]

Fair enough. But the point still stands: there are more top tier programs than top tier coaches. It’s inverse musical chairs . . . where some chairs aren’t going to be lucky enough to be filled (with quality coaches). I personally don’t want to be an empty chair in these times.

We wouldn't be an empty chair for christ's sakes.

Look this whole conversation is based on a massive what if that I doubt with every fiber of my being even happens, but more something that could arguably be explored if enough negative things occur within a slotted time period. Sean Miller's team next year will have a successful season, I'm sure of that, how successful who knows, but we won't be ailing like we are this year. In 2020 I'm sure the man will put together another top 5 recruiting class (he already leads for a 5* wing) and it's all for moot. It's just a fun what if convo to have. However, the pussyfooting about how Arizona could never hope to hire someone who would have more success than Sean Miller has had is just blatantly dumb. If you look at the current top 25, Arizona could hire literally a good 2/3 if not more of the coaches of those teams to be its next head coach if it just snapped its fingers at this very moment. To say differently is having your head in the god damn sand. I will concede it wasn't that way in 2008 and we have to thank Sean Miller greatly for our current position of strength on the market place, but it is that way now. Embrace it.

I disagree in this hypothetical. The first point I'd make is that simply landing a good coach is no guarantee. A good coach can fail in a situation that's just a bad fit.

Look at Rick Barnes and Texas/Tennessee. He's proven he knows what he's doing, but struggled on his way out of Texas. Same with Ben Howland.

Next, we like to think programs with leverage land good coaches. Look at recent history of high profile programs. UCLA and Alford. Indiana and Archie Miller. Louisville and Chris Mack. I'm not hating on Mack or Miller, but their best case scenario is what Sean Miller did here.

And that's how I see it. Replacing Miller is maybe a 25% chance at a lateral move and a 75% chance of a downgrade.

Funny you mention Barnes and Howland as they were my go to examples of successful coaches where the relationship got sour for one reason or another and both coaches went to a lesser pressure situation and are currently succeeding. The circle of this discussion is now complete!

UCLA/Alford was just awful, I mean Dan Guerrero is extraordinarily bad at this coaching hire thing unless the coach just falls into his lap like Chip Kelly did. Indiana and Louisville did exactly what most big named programs that don't have a successor already pinned do and that's hire successful coaches at smaller schools. I mean what's wrong with Archie in Indiana or Mack in Louisville? When and if Arizona has to replace Sean Miller it'll make a similar hire and those hires do typically work out. Obviously there are exceptions as Tom Crean at Indiana comes to mind, but this is the typical blueprint for the vast majority of big named programs. I mean Kansas got Bill Self from Illinois for christ sakes and he had zero final fours on his resume prior to that hire.

You say 25% lateral, 75% downgrade. I say 75% lateral, 25% chance at a downgrade.

[goslingswagg]

Fair enough. But the point still stands: there are more top tier programs than top tier coaches. It’s inverse musical chairs . . . where some chairs aren’t going to be lucky enough to be filled (with quality coaches). I personally don’t want to be an empty chair in these times.

We wouldn't be an empty chair for christ's sakes.

Look this whole conversation is based on a massive what if that I doubt with every fiber of my being even happens, but more something that could arguably be explored if enough negative things occur within a slotted time period. Sean Miller's team next year will have a successful season, I'm sure of that, how successful who knows, but we won't be ailing like we are this year. In 2020 I'm sure the man will put together another top 5 recruiting class (he already leads for a 5* wing) and it's all for moot. It's just a fun what if convo to have. However, the pussyfooting about how Arizona could never hope to hire someone who would have more success than Sean Miller has had is just blatantly dumb. If you look at the current top 25, Arizona could hire literally a good 2/3 if not more of the coaches of those teams to be its next head coach if it just snapped its fingers at this very moment. To say differently is having your head in the god damn sand. I will concede it wasn't that way in 2008 and we have to thank Sean Miller greatly for our current position of strength on the market place, but it is that way now. Embrace it.

Beauchamp or Christopher?

Beauchamp.

I honestly don't have a good read on Christopher, but I always got the sense he was headed for outside of Pac-12 country.

Thanks brotha. Beauchamp would be awesome, hoping we can reel him in as our first piece to the 2020 class.

[UAEebs86]

God this guy is a fucking moron

[Spaceman Spiff]

God this guy is a fucking moron

For us not on Twitter, what is this dude talking about?