2018-2019 Arizona Basketball

[Newportcat]

It isn't as simple as saying Chase Jeter would have completely wiped out two 20+-point deficits on the road. Other teams' fans may resort to that excuse--and after the blowout, they get laughed at too.

Nor is this just the "off year" because of the talent. Arizona fans are going to say this team is less talented than USC because of ESPN/FBI/other issues beyond anyone's control?

And then try to draw parallels between Miller and Ben Freaking Lindsey--a drunk washout who couldn't win at the HS level after he left Arizona?

Lindsey could recruit for a lifetime and never hope to get the classes Sean Miller gets in any given year. The "off year" excuse doesn't explain the listlessness, lack of hustle or pride evident on the court from these Wildcats, who aren't working hard enough to be viable underdogs against any opponent at this point.

Much less Andy Enfield and the giant of interim coaches, Murry Bartow.

No, something else is going on nobody's talking about. I see a group cowed into submission even before the opening tip--one that shows no fight to come back because the players see nothing to fight for.

No, these two straight losses aren't going to be fansplained away as simply as a talent deficit. This performance has become a mental issue, one that has become the potential downside of A Player's Program: that highly-rated talent gets caught in a downward trend, says "f*ck it, I'll be in the league next season anyway," and just writes their time with Miller off as time served.

It's most certainly a lack of talent issue mixed with a sense of hopelessness. There's 3 guys on this current team that would play for any other Arizona team, one balled his heart out last night, one had to start when he should be nothing more than an energy enforcer type off the bench, and the other was out with an injury. Randolph is every bit as much of a ding dong as 97 says he is, which is why he wouldn't play on any other team. He's a waste of natural talent and hasn't developed an ounce of basketball IQ since high school, so disappointing.

Miller’s recent track record isn’t exactly littered with guys who have developed during their time in Tucson.

How can they develop if they leave so early or way before they should

College coaches at places like Arizona don’t get the luxury of player development anymore

I thought Lauri got better in his time at Arizona as did Deandre. Both those guys have been on record of saying Miller helped make them better. Both should be in the NBA a very long time.

Kadeem got better

TJ got Better

I thought Gabe York got better

I think some people have no clue how difficult coaching college basketball is nowadays. No respect for how difficult it is and how only a couple coaches have really figured it out on a consistent basis.

The structural issues with the game now make the game almost unwatchable until March madness. Not the coaches fault in a lot of ways as they did not create these structural issues.

[Beachcat97]

As others have noted, there is just a staggering lack of talent on this team. BW and CJ are "Arizona good." The others are either works in progress or just not at the level we're used to seeing on our roster. Randolph is a very disappointing player. He was expected to take on a major role this year, and he's shown that he is unreliable. Lee and Luther are very weak at finishing around the rim. I couldn't believe how many times they were close to the basket yesterday and just missed from short range. Yes, Moses Brown changed some of those shots, but not all of them. Smith is what he is: a one-dimensional player who will occasionally hit a three but more often clank shots. It's clear why Coleman didn't make it at Alabama and why he has only really thrived against weaker competition while at Samford. I do like Doutrive, but he's still green. Barcello looks overmatched most of the time.

Anyway, this isn't the team Miller envisioned -- again, as others have noted. Give us Bol, Quinerly, and Little, and this team is dramatically changed. We gain more than enough frontcourt depth to hang with USC and UCLA, and we gain another college-ready guard rather having to rely so much on Randolph and Smith.

So yes, I'm chalking some of this up to the scandal. How else to explain this watered down AZ roster?

But if the anticipated roster for next year materializes -- anchored by NM, JG, BW, and CJ -- we should be right back where we're used to being.

[Spaceman Spiff]

It isn't as simple as saying Chase Jeter would have completely wiped out two 20+-point deficits on the road. Other teams' fans may resort to that excuse--and after the blowout, they get laughed at too.

Nor is this just the "off year" because of the talent. Arizona fans are going to say this team is less talented than USC because of ESPN/FBI/other issues beyond anyone's control?

And then try to draw parallels between Miller and Ben Freaking Lindsey--a drunk washout who couldn't win at the HS level after he left Arizona?

Lindsey could recruit for a lifetime and never hope to get the classes Sean Miller gets in any given year. The "off year" excuse doesn't explain the listlessness, lack of hustle or pride evident on the court from these Wildcats, who aren't working hard enough to be viable underdogs against any opponent at this point.

Much less Andy Enfield and the giant of interim coaches, Murry Bartow.

No, something else is going on nobody's talking about. I see a group cowed into submission even before the opening tip--one that shows no fight to come back because the players see nothing to fight for.

No, these two straight losses aren't going to be fansplained away as simply as a talent deficit. This performance has become a mental issue, one that has become the potential downside of A Player's Program: that highly-rated talent gets caught in a downward trend, says "f*ck it, I'll be in the league next season anyway," and just writes their time with Miller off as time served.

I disagree in large part. It wasn't just Jeter's absence. We shot 33 and 32 percent from the field. I don't see that as a lack of mental commitment. Being soft mentally doesn't make your shots miss.

Missed shots blended with the loss of our best offensive rebounder is a recipe for the other team controlling the action.

Primarily, I'd say a team that doesn't care or is defeated will tend to show it more on D. Our AdjD is 42 and was in the 20's before this weekend. Our AdjO is 139.

Our issues don't tend to show themselves in the areas that most highly correlate to effort and intensity.

[SabinoDrifter]

We are one spot ahead off Penn State in the KenPom ratings and they haven't won a conference game all year.

[catgrad97]

It isn't as simple as saying Chase Jeter would have completely wiped out two 20+-point deficits on the road. Other teams' fans may resort to that excuse--and after the blowout, they get laughed at too.

Nor is this just the "off year" because of the talent. Arizona fans are going to say this team is less talented than USC because of ESPN/FBI/other issues beyond anyone's control?

And then try to draw parallels between Miller and Ben Freaking Lindsey--a drunk washout who couldn't win at the HS level after he left Arizona?

Lindsey could recruit for a lifetime and never hope to get the classes Sean Miller gets in any given year. The "off year" excuse doesn't explain the listlessness, lack of hustle or pride evident on the court from these Wildcats, who aren't working hard enough to be viable underdogs against any opponent at this point.

Much less Andy Enfield and the giant of interim coaches, Murry Bartow.

No, something else is going on nobody's talking about. I see a group cowed into submission even before the opening tip--one that shows no fight to come back because the players see nothing to fight for.

No, these two straight losses aren't going to be fansplained away as simply as a talent deficit. This performance has become a mental issue, one that has become the potential downside of A Player's Program: that highly-rated talent gets caught in a downward trend, says "f*ck it, I'll be in the league next season anyway," and just writes their time with Miller off as time served.

I disagree in large part. It wasn't just Jeter's absence. We shot 33 and 32 percent from the field. I don't see that as a lack of mental commitment. Being soft mentally doesn't make your shots miss.

Tell that to Brandon Randolph. A good-shooting team knows when (and where) to shoot.

Missed shots blended with the loss of our best offensive rebounder is a recipe for the other team controlling the action.

Rebounds are not about height, but hustle. This team isn't getting blown off the glass just for missing Chase Jeter. In the pack line, there is no excuse for being outrebounded on the offensive glass. I see nobody on this team picking up a teammate's slack when out.

Primarily, I'd say a team that doesn't care or is defeated will tend to show it more on D. Our AdjD is 42 and was in the 20's before this weekend. Our AdjO is 139.

Our issues don't tend to show themselves in the areas that most highly correlate to effort and intensity.

We're sliding down the rankings in terms of points allowed after this weekend to 95th, at nearly 68 ppg. Not something Miller is tolerant of even in his most off year.

O is lousy and will continue to be until our existing players exercise better shot selection and are willing to work for it.

Because nobody's going to be bailing this offense out on the boards. Cats are ranked 209th in Division I in overall rebounding--behind both ASU and even Grand Canyon.

Is that not a stat related to effort and intensity? Or do we need to withhold judgment until after the Devils win in McKale for the first time in 24 years Thursday?

[Spaceman Spiff]

It isn't as simple as saying Chase Jeter would have completely wiped out two 20+-point deficits on the road. Other teams' fans may resort to that excuse--and after the blowout, they get laughed at too.

Nor is this just the "off year" because of the talent. Arizona fans are going to say this team is less talented than USC because of ESPN/FBI/other issues beyond anyone's control?

And then try to draw parallels between Miller and Ben Freaking Lindsey--a drunk washout who couldn't win at the HS level after he left Arizona?

Lindsey could recruit for a lifetime and never hope to get the classes Sean Miller gets in any given year. The "off year" excuse doesn't explain the listlessness, lack of hustle or pride evident on the court from these Wildcats, who aren't working hard enough to be viable underdogs against any opponent at this point.

Much less Andy Enfield and the giant of interim coaches, Murry Bartow.

No, something else is going on nobody's talking about. I see a group cowed into submission even before the opening tip--one that shows no fight to come back because the players see nothing to fight for.

No, these two straight losses aren't going to be fansplained away as simply as a talent deficit. This performance has become a mental issue, one that has become the potential downside of A Player's Program: that highly-rated talent gets caught in a downward trend, says "f*ck it, I'll be in the league next season anyway," and just writes their time with Miller off as time served.

I disagree in large part. It wasn't just Jeter's absence. We shot 33 and 32 percent from the field. I don't see that as a lack of mental commitment. Being soft mentally doesn't make your shots miss.

Tell that to Brandon Randolph. A good-shooting team knows when (and where) to shoot.

Missed shots blended with the loss of our best offensive rebounder is a recipe for the other team controlling the action.

Rebounds are not about height, but hustle. This team isn't getting blown off the glass just for missing Chase Jeter. In the pack line, there is no excuse for being outrebounded on the offensive glass. I see nobody on this team picking up a teammate's slack when out.

Primarily, I'd say a team that doesn't care or is defeated will tend to show it more on D. Our AdjD is 42 and was in the 20's before this weekend. Our AdjO is 139.

Our issues don't tend to show themselves in the areas that most highly correlate to effort and intensity.

We're sliding down the rankings in terms of points allowed after this weekend to 95th, at nearly 68 ppg. Not something Miller is tolerant of even in his most off year.

O is lousy and will continue to be until our existing players exercise better shot selection and are willing to work for it.

Because nobody's going to be bailing this offense out on the boards. Cats are ranked 209th in Division I in overall rebounding--behind both ASU and even Grand Canyon.

Is that not a stat related to effort and intensity? Or do we need to withhold judgment until after the Devils win in McKale for the first time in 24 years Thursday?

To answer your first point, there's a difference between poor decisions and poor effort. I would disagree that heat of the moment judgment is attributable to effort. Some people have better basketball IQ than others.

On the offensive boards, having Lee and Luther as our only two rebounding options does hurt. The argument height and athleticism don't matter...why do 6'10 guys outrebound 6'2 guys? Adding Akot, we took an average rebounding team, cut out two members of the post rotation and the argument is about effort?

The effort argument also loses steam for me because we're concurrently playing with a shortened rotation. Again, that puts more pressure on the individual. When you take a diminutive team that already doesn't excel on the glass, remove the best rebounder and slice two guys out of the rotation, you have a recipe for the issues we see. Legs aren't there to rebound or shoot.

Shorthanded teams lose more. There's a difference between excuses and reality. I doubt Miller and the team like taking L's so much that they'll think it's ok to put forth subpar effort because Spaceman Spiff thinks there are reasons why we lose independent of effort.

[RiseAndFire]

I know nothing is ever Miller's fault around here but if Jeter is out again or limited for asu, will Sean do anything different in his game plan, or are we again going to go with the predictable defense that leaves our undersized post totally exposed and drawn out to the perimeter for pick and rolls?

We'll see zone as usual. Are we going to push tempo, focus on forcing turnovers in order to generate more transition offense before the defense is set? Or are we going to do the old weave-and-heave half court sets and pray the shots start falling like they did that one time against Oregon State?

Questions lots of questions! I suspect I'm not going to like the answers, lol

[ByJoveByJingle]

If only we could have you run practices, everything would be just fantastic in Wildcat land.

[Chicat]

the predictable defense that leaves our undersized post totally exposed and drawn out to the perimeter for pick and rolls?

Wasn’t your argument in previous years that with Zeus and Ayton, putting them in hedge situations on the perimeter was bad because they were too big and slow to get back? Now it’s bad because our post players are undersized?

[Spaceman Spiff]

the predictable defense that leaves our undersized post totally exposed and drawn out to the perimeter for pick and rolls?

Wasn’t your argument in previous years that with Zeus and Ayton, putting them in hedge situations on the perimeter was bad because they were too big and slow to get back? Now it’s bad because our post players are undersized?

His argument is whatever we're currently doing is bad.

[ByJoveByJingle]

the predictable defense that leaves our undersized post totally exposed and drawn out to the perimeter for pick and rolls?

Wasn’t your argument in previous years that with Zeus and Ayton, putting them in hedge situations on the perimeter was bad because they were too big and slow to get back? Now it’s bad because our post players are undersized?

His argument is whatever we're currently doing is bad.

Except when we are currently doing well . . . then he is noticeably absent.

[RiseAndFire]

Yes Ayton and Tarc were rendered useless defensively and their talent squandered half the time because Bennett ball had them defending their man out on the perimeter or flopping around like a fish trying to hedge instead of living near the rim. Its not really a tough concept to grasp: Put the big guy next to the rim and make him stay there.

Yes pack line m2m also leaves our undersized post completely exposed. These guys are too small to guard the paint, but thats who we have so you're going to need to give Ira Lee and Luther some help. Ira Lee and Luther are not going to handle Rakocevic or Moses Brown on their own.There's supposed to be help in pack line but its not as versatile as a zone. What does Miller do? He says "hey buddies F you guys, the matchups are the matchups we do pack line here that's it. Thems the breaks - you get no help, no adjustment from me and if/when you fail that's on you and your effort. Also #playersprogram!".

That probably does wonders for the old locker room morale and totally not make guys peace out in the middle of the season like Akot just did, lol

[Chicat]

Thank you for further illustrating the severe limits of your basketball knowledge and the irrationality of your Sean Miller hate.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thank you for further illustrating the severe limits of your basketball knowledge and the irrationality of your Sean Miller hate.

I mean, we suck at rebounding in man and he wants to switch to the D that makes rebounding even worse.

We're not good on offense, not good on the glass, but have been solid on D and he wants to switch the scheme...in our best area.

It's not even good trolling.

[EVCat]

Thank you for further illustrating the severe limits of your basketball knowledge and the irrationality of your Sean Miller hate.

I mean, we suck at rebounding in man and he wants to switch to the D that makes rebounding even worse.

We're not good on offense, not good on the glass, but have been solid on D and he wants to switch the scheme...in our best area.

It's not even good trolling.

This.

It is basketball strategy-incompetent trolling.

We ran zone break offense pretty well vs UCLA. Then got stuffed at the rim. But we had the elbow and the drop to the block often. We just had midgets against the guys meeting Kareem and such.

If we had shot better from outside, it would have been a game. But at this point, without a single post player of any note, defenses are pushing zone to the farthest reaches. Yeah, we can break it, but if you cant' score from 4 feet from the rim, what good is it to be at 4 feet from the rim?

Losing players happens. Literally not having a single player you would call a post player (Lee does not really fit, Luther is a stretch 4 at best) is a recipe for disaster...even in a weaker PAC 12. I'd trade any other player on roster for Jeter. Two, even.

[Longhorned]

I stopped reading his posts last year when he could never answer to what was clearly a lack of understanding about bigs' defensive assignments in a 2-3 zone.

[RiseAndFire]

Thank you for further illustrating the severe limits of your basketball knowledge and the irrationality of your Sean Miller hate.

I mean, we suck at rebounding in man and he wants to switch to the D that makes rebounding even worse.

We're not good on offense, not good on the glass, but have been solid on D and he wants to switch the scheme...in our best area.

Chicat and Spiff are advocates of letting the other team dictate the location of your bigs - usually as far away from the hoop as possible. Solid strategy, if you want to let your 7-foot 1st ever #1 NBA draft pick be completely neutralized every game and get blown out in the first round (again).

If we suck at rebounding already, how much worse can it get? What do you have to lose, seeding in the NIT? We're middle of the pack in the worst P12 ever ffs what difference does it make??

[RiseAndFire]

Also Spiff, good job of weaseling out and not committing to a W/L prediction for conference play a few weeks ago (7 losses or less, a pretty low bar I thought). Wise man, your sig is safe!

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thank you for further illustrating the severe limits of your basketball knowledge and the irrationality of your Sean Miller hate.

I mean, we suck at rebounding in man and he wants to switch to the D that makes rebounding even worse.

We're not good on offense, not good on the glass, but have been solid on D and he wants to switch the scheme...in our best area.

Chicat and Spiff are advocates of letting the other team dictate the location of your bigs - usually as far away from the hoop as possible. Solid strategy, if you want to let your 7-foot 1st ever #1 NBA draft pick be completely neutralized every game and get blown out in the first round (again).

If we suck at rebounding already, how much worse can it get? What do you have to lose, seeding in the NIT? We're middle of the pack in the worst P12 ever ffs what difference does it make??

So Miller's strategic adjustments should be based on a "what difference does it make?" basis?

Entering the weekend, we actually were slightly outrebounding opponents. So, we could have lost a lot.

We were also 25th best nationally in AdjD, so switching to zone could have hurt us a lot in that category too.

Your trolling is the quality of our offense. Inconsistent and generally pretty poor for Arizona basketball.

[PHXCATS]

The defense is working this year except for the last game or two and that has been without Jeter.

I wouldnt mind seeing Miller work in a zone occasionally to protect Jeter from foul trouble but at this point it is what it is for this season.

The much bigger issues facing this team right now are 1)Jeter's health, 2) making a fucking bucket especially layups and open shots, 3) rebounding, 4) missing a ton of front ends of one and ones

[Spaceman Spiff]

I stopped reading his posts last year when he could never answer to what was clearly a lack of understanding about bigs' defensive assignments in a 2-3 zone.

He kept whining about man leaving Dusan and Ayton out of the paint, without realizing a 2-3 would continually keep one out of the paint with baseline corner responsibility.

Baseline corner includes closing out on wings if the top two defenders are pulled out. A scheme where Dusan was consistently trying to close out and check wings would have been the most nonsensical thing ever.

He constantly pumps zone without any idea of actual execution of zone, or of man.

[84Cat]

[Jefe]

Dont remember the last time I skipped watching second halfs of back to back games. Yikes.

Still a successful season if we get 2 ASU wins and make the tournament

[Spaceman Spiff]

Screw the tourney, we have to get to full strength and improve our play.

[cats101]

Dont remember the last time I skipped watching second halfs of back to back games. Yikes.

Still a successful season if we get 2 ASU wins and make the tournament

I actually saw Jeter wasn't playing against UCLA and skipped the game all together. Think that's a first against the Ruins. Checked the score at about halftime and went about my night. Same results if he doesn't play against assu, which sounds likely

[U.P. Zona Fan]

I hope tres tinkle is sleeping ok!

[EastCoastCat]

I don't blame Tinkle (god I laugh when I type his name).

Total accident - nothing malicious.

[PHXCATS]

I don't blame Tinkle (god I laugh when I type his name).

Total accident - nothing malicious.

He rotated the opposite way he should have been to get the rebound. Dirty play

[Chicat]

I don't blame Tinkle (god I laugh when I type his name).

Total accident - nothing malicious.

He rotated the opposite way he should have been to get the rebound. Dirty play

Bullshit

[Longhorned]

I rotated the wrong way from my refrigerator door, and now there's tomato juice on the floor and cottage cheese all over the walls.

[EastCoastCat]

I don't blame Tinkle (god I laugh when I type his name).

Total accident - nothing malicious.

He rotated the opposite way he should have been to get the rebound. Dirty play

It was a normal blockout play that happens all of the time. There is no way Tinkle knew Jeter was airborne and in a very awkward position until it was too late.

[Beachcat97]

I had no idea CJ's injury was this bad. Well, we saw what this team looks like with him out. I'm not really sure we can win many games without him.

Is it November yet?

[ChooChooCat]

I had no idea CJ's injury was this bad. Well, we saw what this team looks like with him out. I'm not really sure we can win many games without him.

Is it November yet?

I wouldn't call his injury bad one bit.

[84Cat]

I had no idea CJ's injury was this bad. Well, we saw what this team looks like with him out. I'm not really sure we can win many games without him.

Is it November yet?

I wouldn't call his injury bad one bit.

Is he done at Arizona?

[ChooChooCat]

I had no idea CJ's injury was this bad. Well, we saw what this team looks like with him out. I'm not really sure we can win many games without him.

Is it November yet?

I wouldn't call his injury bad one bit.

Is he done at Arizona?

We've already seen one colossally stupid decision this year, why not 2? Honestly he's still with the team though as far as I'm aware.

[Merkin]

I imagine CSM is holding Chase out until he is 100% healed. He is needed for the PAC tourney, not some meaningless game like this one.

[ChooChooCat]

I imagine CSM is holding Chase out until he is 100% healed. He is needed for the PAC tourney, not some meaningless game like this one.

Miller isn't holding him out.

[CalStateTempe]

What is the injury? Meniscus? Ankle?

Edit seeing Choos post: ah foo

[cats101]

You know I didn't want to say anything because of the whole Tate injury speculation thing, but since that can of worms seems to be open.....

Before I conclude anything, how often does this type of injury usually last? Google is giving me a range of days.

[Merkin]

What's with all the players quitting on the UA in basketball and football?

[ChooChooCat]

What's with all the players quitting on the UA in basketball and football?

I edited my post above, he hasn't quit on the team, but it's still up in the air. What you have is a situation where a guy who has had back issues just hurt his back again, which has worried his family. I'm not going to say he doesn't have any pain in his back whatsoever, but I do know he's been cleared to play, and the ball is in his court. It could just be a case where the family doesn't want to push it (and for this team who can blame them), but it could reach the point where they decide not to push it at all and just have him go pro. It's all to be determined still.

[Merkin]

Thanks Choo, another Gronk situation apparently.

[84Cat]

I imagine CSM is holding Chase out until he is 100% healed. He is needed for the PAC tourney, not some meaningless game like this one.

Miller isn't holding him out.

Definitely Chase's decision. From yesterdays presser

[Spaceman Spiff]

What's with all the players quitting on the UA in basketball and football?

I edited my post above, he hasn't quit on the team, but it's still up in the air. What you have is a situation where a guy who has had back issues just hurt his back again, which has worried his family. I'm not going to say he doesn't have any pain in his back whatsoever, but I do know he's been cleared, and the ball is in his court. It could just be a case where the family doesn't want to push it (and for this team who can blame them), but it could reach the point where they decide not to push it at all and just have him go pro. It's all to be determined still.

One thing I respect Miller for is he doesn't screw with players futures to squeeze out more wins. Big guys are prone to injuries and whether Chase has a future at AZ or in the pros, pushing him back quickly has risk.

Back and legs are the body parts that take the repetitive use injuries. If we call ourselves a player's program, then push players to risk their health...

[Chicat]

Can’t wait for RiseAndFail to let us know that this is all the fault of Miller’s insistence on using Packline.

[PHXCATS]

I had no idea CJ's injury was this bad. Well, we saw what this team looks like with him out. I'm not really sure we can win many games without him.

Is it November yet?

My God our fans love to talk like losers

[PHXCATS]

I imagine CSM is holding Chase out until he is 100% healed. He is needed for the PAC tourney, not some meaningless game like this one.

When will this talk end?

[Alieberman]

I imagine CSM is holding Chase out until he is 100% healed. He is needed for the PAC tourney, not some meaningless game like this one.

When will this talk end?

Stop talking before you derail another FUCKING thread.

Talk about the team and not about the fans

You are fucking a pathetic 1 trick pony

And BTW Nick Foles says to fuck off

[PHXCATS]

I imagine CSM is holding Chase out until he is 100% healed. He is needed for the PAC tourney, not some meaningless game like this one.

When will this talk end?

Stop talking before you derail another FUCKING thread.

Talk about the team and not about the fans

You are fucking a pathetic 1 trick pony

And BTW Nick Foles says to fuck off

Cool story bro

Win tomorrow and sweep next weekend and it is all good. Cats are back in the field of 68. This is a massive game and hopefully Jeter is going to play

[goslingswagg]

This program is cursed...

Obviously I'm a fan of Arizona basketball, so I know the details of this program more intimately than others, but I can't think of a team that has had worse luck the last 10 years...don't even want to go through an exercise of naming all of the nightmare-ish injuries and events that have happened to us, but it just will never fail to shock me with just how unlucky we are.