Bribery Scandal - FBI Probe - Book Richardson Involved

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:00 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:3 level 1 sanctions....good luck. I expect us to get hit with 1 level 1 sanction.

Help me with this, Choo. What does a level 1 sanction equate to in an actual penalty? Scholarship reduction? Coach suspension? Postseason ban?

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:04 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:3 level 1 sanctions....good luck. I expect us to get hit with 1 level 1 sanction.
Help me with this, Choo. What does a level 1 sanction equate to in an actual penalty? Scholarship reduction? Coach suspension? Postseason ban?

The matrix.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5l0BoIl0Xv" target="_blank

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:06 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:3 level 1 sanctions....good luck. I expect us to get hit with 1 level 1 sanction.
Help me with this, Choo. What does a level 1 sanction equate to in an actual penalty? Scholarship reduction? Coach suspension? Postseason ban?
The matrix.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5l0BoIl0Xv" target="_blank

That's helpful, Spiff, but no idea how to distinguish between "aggravation," "standard," and "mitigation."

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:07 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:3 level 1 sanctions....good luck. I expect us to get hit with 1 level 1 sanction.
Help me with this, Choo. What does a level 1 sanction equate to in an actual penalty? Scholarship reduction? Coach suspension? Postseason ban?
The matrix.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5l0BoIl0Xv" target="_blank
That's helpful, Spiff, but no idea how to distinguish between "aggravation," "standard," and "mitigation."

Eh, let the NCAA figure out how to give them a slap on the wrist. The whole system is set up to really only punish student athletes anyway.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:14 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:3 level 1 sanctions....good luck. I expect us to get hit with 1 level 1 sanction.
Help me with this, Choo. What does a level 1 sanction equate to in an actual penalty? Scholarship reduction? Coach suspension? Postseason ban?
The matrix.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5l0BoIl0Xv" target="_blank
That's helpful, Spiff, but no idea how to distinguish between "aggravation," "standard," and "mitigation."

Realistic worse case is standard. Kansas is in aggravation territory.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:21 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:3 level 1 sanctions....good luck. I expect us to get hit with 1 level 1 sanction.
Help me with this, Choo. What does a level 1 sanction equate to in an actual penalty? Scholarship reduction? Coach suspension? Postseason ban?
The matrix.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5l0BoIl0Xv" target="_blank
That's helpful, Spiff, but no idea how to distinguish between "aggravation," "standard," and "mitigation."
Realistic worse case is standard. Kansas is in aggravation territory.

Thanks, Choo. It's going to be amusing (and cringe-inducing) when news of AZ's penalty breaks and it's in size 50 font all caps on ESPN's homepage.

PHXCATS · Post by **PHXCATS** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:22 pm

why the fuck do you still go to espn

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:23 pm

PHXCATS wrote:why the fuck do you still go to espn

Bad habit, I know. What's the best alternative?

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:26 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:3 level 1 sanctions....good luck. I expect us to get hit with 1 level 1 sanction.
Help me with this, Choo. What does a level 1 sanction equate to in an actual penalty? Scholarship reduction? Coach suspension? Postseason ban?
The matrix.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5l0BoIl0Xv" target="_blank
That's helpful, Spiff, but no idea how to distinguish between "aggravation," "standard," and "mitigation."

The penalty shows you what realm you're in. Aggravation is stuff that makes the institution look worse. Mitigation is stuff that makes the institution look better.

So, you start weighing the aggravating and mitigating circumstances vs the standard and see where you fall.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:37 pm

tricat wrote:If I'm Self I know my line of defense is that I wanted to make sure Adidas was getting kids into their AAU pipeline so they'd develop an affinity for the brand, and thus the flagship Adidas school would be more appealing to them. It's clearly not what he meant, but I'd try to make the NCAA prove me wrong.

The De Sousa commitment makes that look silly. Self and Townsend said "go get him" and he was on campus in Lawrence without playing a game for an Adidas program.

Also, the NCAA isn't held to standards of proof like in a criminal proceeding. It's essentially a civil case - just need clear and convincing evidence. Directing an Adidas fixer to assist in your recruiting is clear evidence of "lack of institutional control," whether Self knew of the payments or not. If I was supposed to look after the kids and I instead hired an ex-con who put them in danger - I wouldn't have a ton of standing to say I had control of their safety.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:57 pm

The Kansas situation just makes me wonder how much of their recruiting success over the past decade is now cast in suspicion: Wiggins, Oubre, Jackson, Diallo, et al. How many of their elite freshmen were lured by improper means?

And before anyone says "pot calling kettle," I don't know if we could ask the same about other previous elite recruits Book was involved with at AZ. Was it just a couple years where Book went rogue, or was that his way the whole time he was at AZ?

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:10 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:The Kansas situation just makes me wonder how much of their recruiting success over the past decade is now cast in suspicion: Wiggins, Oubre, Jackson, Diallo, et al. How many of their elite freshmen were lured by improper means?

And before anyone says "pot calling kettle," I don't know if we could ask the same about other previous elite recruits Book was involved with at AZ. Was it just a couple years where Book went rogue, or was that his way the whole time he was at AZ?

I just assume that all top level talent has someone in their ear who could be influenced.

midnightx · Post by **midnightx** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:27 pm

One of the blue blood programs gets hit with level one violations and ESPN doesn’t even splash it on the front of its basketball page with a headline and images. Just a sidebar story.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:35 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:The Kansas situation just makes me wonder how much of their recruiting success over the past decade is now cast in suspicion: Wiggins, Oubre, Jackson, Diallo, et al. How many of their elite freshmen were lured by improper means?

And before anyone says "pot calling kettle," I don't know if we could ask the same about other previous elite recruits Book was involved with at AZ. Was it just a couple years where Book went rogue, or was that his way the whole time he was at AZ?

If you want big time recruits, you have to do what it takes to get big time recruits.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:39 pm

midnightx wrote:One of the blue blood programs gets hit with level one violations and ESPN doesn’t even splash it on the front of its basketball page with a headline and images. Just a sidebar story.

Take a screenshot.

Then when Arizona gets its notice from the NCAA, take another one.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:57 pm

midnightx wrote:One of the blue blood programs gets hit with level one violations and ESPN doesn’t even splash it on the front of its basketball page with a headline and images. Just a sidebar story.

Cue PHXCATS with the ESPN-shaming?

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:56 pm

Lots of aggravating and not much mitigating in here.

Bill Self hit with four level 1 violations including lack of institutional control for condoning, participating in, or negligently disregarding violations or wrongful conduct.

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:03 pm

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:06 pm

Head Men’s Basketball Coach Bill Self:

“By the NCAA’s own admission through its public statements early this summer, it’s no secret that there is tremendous pressure on the NCAA to respond to the federal court proceedings involving college basketball. Compelled to reassure member institutions and the general public that it can police its member institutions, the NCAA enforcement staff has responded in an unnecessarily aggressive manner in submitting today’s unsubstantiated Notice of Allegations, and I, as well as the University, will vigorously dispute what has been alleged.

In its haste and attempt to regain control, the enforcement staff has created a false narrative regarding me and our basketball program. The narrative is based on innuendo, half-truths, misimpressions and mischaracterizations. In reality, we all know there is only one version of the truth. The truth is based on verifiable facts, and I am confident the facts we will demonstrate in our case will expose the inaccuracies of the enforcement staff’s narrative.

I have always taken pride in my commitment to rules compliance and led programs that operate with integrity and within the rules, and I am proud of the success that we have achieved at each program along the way. Every student-athlete who has ever played for me and their families know we follow the rules.

These allegations are serious and damaging to the University and to myself, and I hate that KU has to go through this process. With our staff’s full cooperation, these allegations will be addressed within NCAA procedures and with urgency and resolve. I will strenuously defend myself and the program, but I will respect the process and will not speak to the details of the case.”

Have to like Self’s response LOL

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:09 pm

KU's defense right now is that the Adidas team wasn't acting as representatives for the basketball program, which is absurd since this is 6.4.2 of the NCAA constitution:

An institution's "responsibility" for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program shall include responsibility for the acts of individuals when a member of the institution's executive or athletics administration has knowledge or should have knowledge that such an individual:

(a) Has participated in or is a member of an agency or organization, including corporate entities (e.g., apparel and equipment companies), as described in Constitution 6.4.1; (Revised: 1/14/02)
(b) Has made financial contributions to the athletics department or to an athletics booster organization of that institution;
(c) Has been requested by the athletics department staff to assist in the recruitment of prospective student athletes or is assisting in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes;
(d) Has assisted or is assisting in providing benefits to enrolled student-athletes; or
(e) Is otherwise involved in promoting the institution's athletics program.

Emphasis mine.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:12 pm

azcat49 wrote:Head Men’s Basketball Coach Bill Self:

“By the NCAA’s own admission through its public statements early this summer, it’s no secret that there is tremendous pressure on the NCAA to respond to the federal court proceedings involving college basketball. Compelled to reassure member institutions and the general public that it can police its member institutions, the NCAA enforcement staff has responded in an unnecessarily aggressive manner in submitting today’s unsubstantiated Notice of Allegations, and I, as well as the University, will vigorously dispute what has been alleged.

In its haste and attempt to regain control, the enforcement staff has created a false narrative regarding me and our basketball program. The narrative is based on innuendo, half-truths, misimpressions and mischaracterizations. In reality, we all know there is only one version of the truth. The truth is based on verifiable facts, and I am confident the facts we will demonstrate in our case will expose the inaccuracies of the enforcement staff’s narrative.

I have always taken pride in my commitment to rules compliance and led programs that operate with integrity and within the rules, and I am proud of the success that we have achieved at each program along the way. Every student-athlete who has ever played for me and their families know we follow the rules.

These allegations are serious and damaging to the University and to myself, and I hate that KU has to go through this process. With our staff’s full cooperation, these allegations will be addressed within NCAA procedures and with urgency and resolve. I will strenuously defend myself and the program, but I will respect the process and will not speak to the details of the case.”

Have to like Self’s response LOL

Bill Self straight up attacking the NCAA is indicative of how little legal standing he has for his defense right now.

“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell.” ― Carl Sandburg

Self: I'm not guilty, this whole system is guilty! ...good luck with that.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:21 pm

YoDeFoe wrote:Self: I'm not guilty, this whole system is guilty!

“Sir, this is a Denny’s...”

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:40 pm

David Ridpath, president of the Drake Group, a think tank dedicated to protecting academic integrity in college sports, and an associate professor of sports business at Ohio University, said it's too early to tell whether the NCAA can make a dent in cleaning up college basketball corruption.

"[The notice of allegations] is not surprising," Ridpath said. "But it's one thing to allege and another to know what's going to be the end game. I think we saw that in the North Carolina case [involving alleged academic misconduct]. I have my doubts that the membership really truly, truly wants to punish these schools and punish coaches like Bill Self. At the end of the day, whether he knew or didn't know, he should have known or did know. My guess is Bill Self probably knew a lot more than he's letting on.

"If we're going to have these rules, they need to be enforced. Until we see the end game, I don't know how worried Kansas should be about these allegations, because it still has to go through the infractions process. The committee on infractions has shown in the past that it's very reticent to punish some schools. We'll have to wait and see. If they're doing their job, Kansas should be absolutely eviscerated."

That last line should make Enfuego curl up into a ball. It scares me

phxcat23 · Post by **phxcat23** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:56 pm

Not even the top headline in the NCAAM homepage on the sidebar. A Duke headline is above the KU news. Ridiculous

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:30 am

phxcat23 wrote:Not even the top headline in the NCAAM homepage on the sidebar. A Duke headline is above the KU news. Ridiculous

It’s now the front page story on NCAAM, but boy do those writers try to steer attention back to “other schools.”

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:38 am

Beachcat97 wrote:
phxcat23 wrote:Not even the top headline in the NCAAM homepage on the sidebar. A Duke headline is above the KU news. Ridiculous
It’s now the front page story on NCAAM, but boy do those writers try to steer attention back to “other schools.”

Wingo & Golic spent a solid 7-8 minutes on it this morning.

Anyone want to guess which other school and coach got specifically called out?

What was interesting was that the Sean Miller/Arizona call out came right after they mentioned that this is entirely an Adidas scandal. No mention of course that we are a fucking Nike school.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:23 am

I’ll just continue to say: the evidence and circumstances of Kansas and NCST and Louisville are in a completely different league than the evidence against Arizona, USC, and OKST. Auburn is in a middle rung mostly based on two players losing eligibility and Pearl’s history of infractions.

For us: a single assistant coach took bribe money one off season. No player eligibility affected, no impermissible benefits, and no systemic or long term conspiracy by the athletic department.

Kansas adopting the KU “black ops” fixer as a member of their recruiting team for years, with knowledge of impermissible benefits and possible knowledge of payments to players, is so wildly egregious that to let it go unpunished would be the ultimate mockery of the sport.

Kansas fans have deluded themselves that the NCAA can’t punish a blue blood. That they’re too big to fail. That’s seen in Self’s spin on “narrative” and “rush to regain control” - PR words and not a dispute of collected facts. I think they’re going to be gravely mistaken.

midnightx · Post by **midnightx** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:33 am

Chicat wrote:
midnightx wrote:One of the blue blood programs gets hit with level one violations and ESPN doesn’t even splash it on the front of its basketball page with a headline and images. Just a sidebar story.
Take a screenshot.

Then when Arizona gets its notice from the NCAA, take another one.

Exactly. It will be the front page cover story, not the men’s basketball page cover story, but the cover story for the entire website. They probably have the entire thing ready to publish, just waiting for the green light.

midnightx · Post by **midnightx** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:41 am

Chicat wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
phxcat23 wrote:Not even the top headline in the NCAAM homepage on the sidebar. A Duke headline is above the KU news. Ridiculous
It’s now the front page story on NCAAM, but boy do those writers try to steer attention back to “other schools.”
Wingo & Golic spent a solid 7-8 minutes on it this morning.

Anyone want to guess which other school and coach got specifically called out?

What was interesting was that the Sean Miller/Arizona call out came right after they mentioned that this is entirely an Adidas scandal. No mention of course that we are a fucking Nike school.

Just imagine if AZ doesn’t get hit with the same level of notice of allegations as KU, ESPN as a whole won’t know what to do with itself. Vitale will probably be hospitalized.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:50 am

midnightx wrote:
Chicat wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
phxcat23 wrote:Not even the top headline in the NCAAM homepage on the sidebar. A Duke headline is above the KU news. Ridiculous
It’s now the front page story on NCAAM, but boy do those writers try to steer attention back to “other schools.”
Wingo & Golic spent a solid 7-8 minutes on it this morning.

Anyone want to guess which other school and coach got specifically called out?

What was interesting was that the Sean Miller/Arizona call out came right after they mentioned that this is entirely an Adidas scandal. No mention of course that we are a fucking Nike school.
Just imagine if AZ doesn’t get hit with the same level of notice of allegations as KU, ESPN as a whole won’t know what to do with itself. Vitale will probably be hospitalized.

They’ll probably act like we somehow gamed the system and that Sean Miller is not only guilty of paying players, but also bribing and/or coercing NCAA officials.

Fuck ESPiN

CatFanOneMil · Post by **CatFanOneMil** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:53 am

midnightx wrote: Just imagine if AZ doesn’t get hit with the same level of notice of allegations as KU, ESPN as a whole won’t know what to do with itself. Vitale will probably be hospitalized.

Christmas might come early for us Arizona fans...

I can promise you this, when the sanction/s come down it will be a media frenzy attacking the NCAA, they will become the chum in the shark pool that UA and Miller have been and the bingo word of the day will be "travesty"...

UofAlum05 · Post by **UofAlum05** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:57 am

I listened to Aaron Torres' podcast yesterday. He called the National Media out for only going after Arizona and said there is a ton more proof on Bill Self than Sean Miller.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:08 am

YoDeFoe wrote:KU's defense right now is that the Adidas team wasn't acting as representatives for the basketball program, which is absurd since this is 6.4.2 of the NCAA constitution:

An institution's "responsibility" for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program shall include responsibility for the acts of individuals when a member of the institution's executive or athletics administration has knowledge or should have knowledge that such an individual:

(a) Has participated in or is a member of an agency or organization, including corporate entities (e.g., apparel and equipment companies), as described in Constitution 6.4.1; (Revised: 1/14/02)
(b) Has made financial contributions to the athletics department or to an athletics booster organization of that institution;
(c) Has been requested by the athletics department staff to assist in the recruitment of prospective student athletes or is assisting in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes;
(d) Has assisted or is assisting in providing benefits to enrolled student-athletes; or
(e) Is otherwise involved in promoting the institution's athletics program.

Emphasis mine.

Gassnola responded with a text that said, “In my mind, it’s KU, Bill Self. Everyone else fall into line. Too (expletive) bad. That’s what’s right for Adidas basketball. And I know I’m right. The more you win, have lottery picks and you happy. That’s how it should work in my mind.”

Self replied by text, “That’s how ur (sic) works. At UNC and Duke.”

Gassnola answered by saying Kentucky as well. “I promise you I got this. I have never let you down. Except (Deandre). Lol. We will get it right.”

But beyond that, they weren't working together at all.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:37 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
YoDeFoe wrote:KU's defense right now is that the Adidas team wasn't acting as representatives for the basketball program, which is absurd since this is 6.4.2 of the NCAA constitution:

An institution's "responsibility" for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program shall include responsibility for the acts of individuals when a member of the institution's executive or athletics administration has knowledge or should have knowledge that such an individual:

(a) Has participated in or is a member of an agency or organization, including corporate entities (e.g., apparel and equipment companies), as described in Constitution 6.4.1; (Revised: 1/14/02)
(b) Has made financial contributions to the athletics department or to an athletics booster organization of that institution;
(c) Has been requested by the athletics department staff to assist in the recruitment of prospective student athletes or is assisting in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes;
(d) Has assisted or is assisting in providing benefits to enrolled student-athletes; or
(e) Is otherwise involved in promoting the institution's athletics program.

Emphasis mine.
Gassnola responded with a text that said, “In my mind, it’s KU, Bill Self. Everyone else fall into line. Too (expletive) bad. That’s what’s right for Adidas basketball. And I know I’m right. The more you win, have lottery picks and you happy. That’s how it should work in my mind.”

Self replied by text, “That’s how ur (sic) works. At UNC and Duke.”

Gassnola answered by saying Kentucky as well. “I promise you I got this. I have never let you down. Except (Deandre). Lol. We will get it right.”

But beyond that, they weren't working together at all.

The current KU fan base line of defense is 1) "the NCAA made us call Gassnola a booster in order to get De Sousa eligible, they tricked us!" or... 2) "If a shoe rep is a booster then every school is going down."

To which I'd reply: 1) directing anyone to recruit on your behalf makes them a booster/rep of the school (and thereby makes any violations they commit your problem), and 2) point to the other school with texts between a shoe rep and the coaching staff directing recruiting, tying it to the contract renewal, and including impermissible benefits and violations.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:02 am

YoDeFoe wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
YoDeFoe wrote:KU's defense right now is that the Adidas team wasn't acting as representatives for the basketball program, which is absurd since this is 6.4.2 of the NCAA constitution:

An institution's "responsibility" for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program shall include responsibility for the acts of individuals when a member of the institution's executive or athletics administration has knowledge or should have knowledge that such an individual:

(a) Has participated in or is a member of an agency or organization, including corporate entities (e.g., apparel and equipment companies), as described in Constitution 6.4.1; (Revised: 1/14/02)
(b) Has made financial contributions to the athletics department or to an athletics booster organization of that institution;
(c) Has been requested by the athletics department staff to assist in the recruitment of prospective student athletes or is assisting in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes;
(d) Has assisted or is assisting in providing benefits to enrolled student-athletes; or
(e) Is otherwise involved in promoting the institution's athletics program.

Emphasis mine.
Gassnola responded with a text that said, “In my mind, it’s KU, Bill Self. Everyone else fall into line. Too (expletive) bad. That’s what’s right for Adidas basketball. And I know I’m right. The more you win, have lottery picks and you happy. That’s how it should work in my mind.”

Self replied by text, “That’s how ur (sic) works. At UNC and Duke.”

Gassnola answered by saying Kentucky as well. “I promise you I got this. I have never let you down. Except (Deandre). Lol. We will get it right.”

But beyond that, they weren't working together at all.
The current KU fan base line of defense is 1) "the NCAA made us call Gassnola a booster in order to get De Sousa eligible, they tricked us!" or... 2) "If a shoe rep is a booster then every school is going down."

To which I'd reply: 1) directing anyone to recruit on your behalf makes them a booster/rep of the school (and thereby makes any violations they commit your problem), and 2) point to the other school with texts between a shoe rep and the coaching staff directing recruiting, tying it to the contract renewal, and including impermissible benefits and violations.

On #2, KU fans are probably right that everyone's doing it, hence Gassnola and Self talking about how it is with UNC and Duke. Reality dictates not everyone's going down, though. The NCAA either has to legalize it (which they aren't doing) or only punish where the evidence is.

And the evidence is very much against Kansas. It might not be entirely fair, but life isn't fair. We've been dragged through enough mud I'm not crying.

When Gassnola straight up says he's putting KU #1 and tried to deliver Ayton for Kansas, that sort of answers the question about who he was supporting, and the texts answer whether Self knew about it.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:28 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
YoDeFoe wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
YoDeFoe wrote:KU's defense right now is that the Adidas team wasn't acting as representatives for the basketball program, which is absurd since this is 6.4.2 of the NCAA constitution:

An institution's "responsibility" for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program shall include responsibility for the acts of individuals when a member of the institution's executive or athletics administration has knowledge or should have knowledge that such an individual:

(a) Has participated in or is a member of an agency or organization, including corporate entities (e.g., apparel and equipment companies), as described in Constitution 6.4.1; (Revised: 1/14/02)
(b) Has made financial contributions to the athletics department or to an athletics booster organization of that institution;
(c) Has been requested by the athletics department staff to assist in the recruitment of prospective student athletes or is assisting in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes;
(d) Has assisted or is assisting in providing benefits to enrolled student-athletes; or
(e) Is otherwise involved in promoting the institution's athletics program.

Emphasis mine.
Gassnola responded with a text that said, “In my mind, it’s KU, Bill Self. Everyone else fall into line. Too (expletive) bad. That’s what’s right for Adidas basketball. And I know I’m right. The more you win, have lottery picks and you happy. That’s how it should work in my mind.”

Self replied by text, “That’s how ur (sic) works. At UNC and Duke.”

Gassnola answered by saying Kentucky as well. “I promise you I got this. I have never let you down. Except (Deandre). Lol. We will get it right.”

But beyond that, they weren't working together at all.
The current KU fan base line of defense is 1) "the NCAA made us call Gassnola a booster in order to get De Sousa eligible, they tricked us!" or... 2) "If a shoe rep is a booster then every school is going down."

To which I'd reply: 1) directing anyone to recruit on your behalf makes them a booster/rep of the school (and thereby makes any violations they commit your problem), and 2) point to the other school with texts between a shoe rep and the coaching staff directing recruiting, tying it to the contract renewal, and including impermissible benefits and violations.
On #2, KU fans are probably right that everyone's doing it, hence Gassnola and Self talking about how it is with UNC and Duke. Reality dictates not everyone's going down, though. The NCAA either has to legalize it (which they aren't doing) or only punish where the evidence is.

And the evidence is very much against Kansas. It might not be entirely fair, but life isn't fair. We've been dragged through enough mud I'm not crying.

When Gassnola straight up says he's putting KU #1 and tried to deliver Ayton for Kansas, that sort of answers the question about who he was supporting, and the texts answer whether Self knew about it.

And there goes the final defense - "everyone is doing it!" Sure, Kansas, that's probably true - but only you, NC State, and Louisville have the evidence to prove you're doing it.

CatFanOneMil · Post by **CatFanOneMil** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:56 am

So KU has 90 days to protest/respond/file counter complaint...then the NCAA has 45 days to rebut/deny/respond...that puts us somewhere into 2020 (or earlier if they move faster which they will not do)...spring...

Seems to me we will get a lot of nothing going on for a long time, with the exception of "NCAA sanctions cloud hanging over Self and Kansas affecting team"...

Wonder if they will get some recruits decommitting?

Wonder how their recruiting is gonna stack up...

How many wins get vacated?

I wonder if Bill Self will retire because the amount of effort to overcome this hit is probably more than his 59 year old frame cares to hoist?

If/when Self retires (this might be his last season) I expect Kansas "Rock Chalk" to become just a footnote in history...they are not recovering form this anytime soon...

Long may you mourn enfuego, long may you mourn.

midnightx · Post by **midnightx** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:12 am

UofAlum05 wrote:I listened to Aaron Torres' podcast yesterday. He called the National Media out for only going after Arizona and said there is a ton more proof on Bill Self than Sean Miller.

It is no different than most of the media in politics — they have an agenda and rarely deviate from it. Multiple outlets, entities, and writers (can’t call them journalists) targeted AZ for whatever reason and have tailored their ongoing narrative to bring down the program mostly with smoke and mirrors, innuendo, conjectures, and unsubstantiated claims and rumors. Is AZ going to be in the clear? No. But the anti-AZ narrative that has been pushed by many in the sports media for two years has been proven very inaccurate and totally unverifiable up to this point.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:15 am

midnightx wrote:
UofAlum05 wrote:I listened to Aaron Torres' podcast yesterday. He called the National Media out for only going after Arizona and said there is a ton more proof on Bill Self than Sean Miller.
It is no different than most of the media in politics — they have an agenda and rarely deviate from it. Multiple outlets, entities, and writers (can’t call them journalists) targeted AZ for whatever reason and have tailored their ongoing narrative to bring down the program mostly with smoke and mirrors, innuendo, conjectures, and unsubstantiated claims and rumors. Is AZ going to be in the clear? No. But the anti-AZ narrative that has been pushed by many in the sports media for two years has been proven very inaccurate and totally unverifiable up to this point.

Speaking of said agenda. Here's the end of a recent Athletic article on this topic.

"Which coach and/or fan base will sleep uneasiest tonight (i.e., who’s up next)?

Moore: Arizona and Sean Miller. They’re coming for you, brother. And it’s obvious they aren’t messing around. They have out their jump-to-conclusions mat, and that’s troubling for the Wildcats.

Hamilton: “Hi, Arizona, I’m the NCAA. You might remember us from such NOAs as ‘Wolfpack: Code Red’ and ‘The Night Kansas Cried.’ ”

O’Neil: Gimme an A for … Arizona and Auburn! Not sure which will come first, but both have to be on the docket, and neither should feel very good about it.

Davis: From the moment this case was launched, I believed Arizona was in the most jeopardy. Unlike Kansas, Arizona had a coach who was indicted and convicted and who is serving a three-month prison sentence in New York. That school and its fans can’t be feeling good about what’s coming down the pike."

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:31 am

Dana O’Neil: The NCAA is throwing everything it has at Kansas and Bill Self, in an effort to both take a stand and refute the notion that it doesn’t go after the blue bloods.

...or, because there's fucking evidence of systemic wrongdoing led by Bill Self and permeating throughout his staff!

God damn. Sometimes, I don't think it's about having a person agenda with these journalists. I think they're trained to find a story and run with that story. The juciest story here is "NCAA throws book at Self bc they need to assert control" when the reality is "NCAA follows the letter of the law in NOA against KU." Self set the tone for the media narrative and they're all too happy to fill in the blanks instead of using their own fcking brains.

midnightx · Post by **midnightx** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:33 am

ChooChooCat wrote:
midnightx wrote:
UofAlum05 wrote:I listened to Aaron Torres' podcast yesterday. He called the National Media out for only going after Arizona and said there is a ton more proof on Bill Self than Sean Miller.
It is no different than most of the media in politics — they have an agenda and rarely deviate from it. Multiple outlets, entities, and writers (can’t call them journalists) targeted AZ for whatever reason and have tailored their ongoing narrative to bring down the program mostly with smoke and mirrors, innuendo, conjectures, and unsubstantiated claims and rumors. Is AZ going to be in the clear? No. But the anti-AZ narrative that has been pushed by many in the sports media for two years has been proven very inaccurate and totally unverifiable up to this point.
Speaking of said agenda. Here's the end of a recent Athletic article on this topic.

"Which coach and/or fan base will sleep uneasiest tonight (i.e., who’s up next)?

Moore: Arizona and Sean Miller. They’re coming for you, brother. And it’s obvious they aren’t messing around. They have out their jump-to-conclusions mat, and that’s troubling for the Wildcats.

Hamilton: “Hi, Arizona, I’m the NCAA. You might remember us from such NOAs as ‘Wolfpack: Code Red’ and ‘The Night Kansas Cried.’ ”

O’Neil: Gimme an A for … Arizona and Auburn! Not sure which will come first, but both have to be on the docket, and neither should feel very good about it.

Davis: From the moment this case was launched, I believed Arizona was in the most jeopardy. Unlike Kansas, Arizona had a coach who was indicted and convicted and who is serving a three-month prison sentence in New York. That school and its fans can’t be feeling good about what’s coming down the pike."

Yes, Book took a bribe, without the knowledge of the head coach, to steer players to an agent after they were done playing at AZ. It was for his own gain, not to benefit the program. That is not the same as head coaches making deals for players to play for the program (all the alleged players were cleared to play, and there was no smoking gun FBI recording with Miller making a deal for Ayton). If these numbskull writers look at the details, they might actually see the big differences with the Kansas situation. Granted there are other issues with the AZ program and it will likely get hit with something, but not necessarily due to Book’s predicament.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:36 am

YoDeFoe wrote:Dana O’Neil: The NCAA is throwing everything it has at Kansas and Bill Self, in an effort to both take a stand and refute the notion that it doesn’t go after the blue bloods.

...or, because there's fucking evidence of systemic wrongdoing led by Bill Self and permeating throughout his staff!

God damn. Sometimes, I don't think it's about having a person agenda with these journalists. I think they're trained to find a story and run with that story. The juciest story here is "NCAA throws book at Self bc they need to assert control" when the reality is "NCAA follows the letter of the law in NOA against KU." Self set the tone for the media narrative and they're all too happy to fill in the blanks instead of using their own fcking brains.

Truly amazing how utterly fucking worthless sports media has become.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:42 am

YoDeFoe wrote:Dana O’Neil: The NCAA is throwing everything it has at Kansas and Bill Self, in an effort to both take a stand and refute the notion that it doesn’t go after the blue bloods.

...or, because there's fucking evidence of systemic wrongdoing led by Bill Self and permeating throughout his staff!

God damn. Sometimes, I don't think it's about having a person agenda with these journalists. I think they're trained to find a story and run with that story. The juciest story here is "NCAA throws book at Self bc they need to assert control" when the reality is "NCAA follows the letter of the law in NOA against KU." Self set the tone for the media narrative and they're all too happy to fill in the blanks instead of using their own fcking brains.

Those quotes from the Athletic are very telling.

They are predicting Arizona is next on the NCAA hit list because they’ve been telling everyone Arizona is next on the NCAA hit list.

The story is already written in their minds (and possibly literally they’ve already written the Arizona story) and they aren’t going to let facts or what happens dissuade them from what they’ve been telling everyone all along.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:57 am

In essence, the NCAA has not brought any new light in its allegations to either NCST or KU correct. If that is accurate then the charges against AZ will be few and center mostly around supervisory control. Just want to make sure I am following you all accurately

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:57 am

ChooChooCat wrote:
midnightx wrote:
UofAlum05 wrote:I listened to Aaron Torres' podcast yesterday. He called the National Media out for only going after Arizona and said there is a ton more proof on Bill Self than Sean Miller.
It is no different than most of the media in politics — they have an agenda and rarely deviate from it. Multiple outlets, entities, and writers (can’t call them journalists) targeted AZ for whatever reason and have tailored their ongoing narrative to bring down the program mostly with smoke and mirrors, innuendo, conjectures, and unsubstantiated claims and rumors. Is AZ going to be in the clear? No. But the anti-AZ narrative that has been pushed by many in the sports media for two years has been proven very inaccurate and totally unverifiable up to this point.
Speaking of said agenda. Here's the end of a recent Athletic article on this topic.

"Which coach and/or fan base will sleep uneasiest tonight (i.e., who’s up next)?

Moore: Arizona and Sean Miller. They’re coming for you, brother. And it’s obvious they aren’t messing around. They have out their jump-to-conclusions mat, and that’s troubling for the Wildcats.

Hamilton: “Hi, Arizona, I’m the NCAA. You might remember us from such NOAs as ‘Wolfpack: Code Red’ and ‘The Night Kansas Cried.’ ”

O’Neil: Gimme an A for … Arizona and Auburn! Not sure which will come first, but both have to be on the docket, and neither should feel very good about it.

Davis: From the moment this case was launched, I believed Arizona was in the most jeopardy. Unlike Kansas, Arizona had a coach who was indicted and convicted and who is serving a three-month prison sentence in New York. That school and its fans can’t be feeling good about what’s coming down the pike."

The part that offends me the most is the insinuation the NCAA is jumping to conclusions on Kansas given the texts from Self introduced at trial.

We will get a notice, I don't doubt that. It should tell you something that the first two schools up weren't schools with assistants convicted, though. The bribery does not appear to be first up for the NCAA, that would appear to be player payments.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:04 pm

My coworker just asked me if I heard “about Arizona”.

Asked him what was up and he said, “NCAA just announced they are coming down hard on your coach.”

I told him “I think I would have heard something like that. Are you sure they weren’t talking about Kansas?”

“Nope, I’m pretty sure it was John Miller at Arizona...”

Fuck everyone.

CatFanOneMil · Post by **CatFanOneMil** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:05 pm

Our notice will be in the "mitigating" column and these sports anal-ists are going to blow a gasket, but the NCAA has no choice but to deal with facts and evidence...and with Miller there are not really any incriminating facts or evidence at all...

People are going to suggest that Miller/UA paid off the NCAA, they will be livid that our infractions do not rise to the same level, but thats because people are dumb motherfuckers, even the ones with paid sports reporting jobs.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:09 pm

Chicat wrote:My coworker just asked me if I heard “about Arizona”.

Asked him what was up and he said, “NCAA just announced they are coming down hard on your coach.”

I told him “I think I would have heard something like that. Are you sure they weren’t talking about Kansas?”

“Nope, I’m pretty sure it was John Miller at Arizona...”

Fuck everyone.

The Sports media has effectively done their job. Kansas may get shithoused for years to come, but people are still associating Arizona with this story. Good job team, you sure are the purveyors of truth.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:23 pm

Chicat wrote:
YoDeFoe wrote:Dana O’Neil: The NCAA is throwing everything it has at Kansas and Bill Self, in an effort to both take a stand and refute the notion that it doesn’t go after the blue bloods.

...or, because there's fucking evidence of systemic wrongdoing led by Bill Self and permeating throughout his staff!

God damn. Sometimes, I don't think it's about having a person agenda with these journalists. I think they're trained to find a story and run with that story. The juciest story here is "NCAA throws book at Self bc they need to assert control" when the reality is "NCAA follows the letter of the law in NOA against KU." Self set the tone for the media narrative and they're all too happy to fill in the blanks instead of using their own fcking brains.
Those quotes from the Athletic are very telling.

They are predicting Arizona is next on the NCAA hit list because they’ve been telling everyone Arizona is next on the NCAA hit list.

The story is already written in their minds (and possibly literally they’ve already written the Arizona story) and they aren’t going to let facts or what happens dissuade them from what they’ve been telling everyone all along.

Wildly frustrating and completely agree.

Here's Seth Davis: "From the moment this case was launched, I believed Arizona was in the most jeopardy."

WOW SETH. Way to fucking give away the goods on how you decided from the get-go that Arizona was fucked. I mean how lacking in self-awareness can a journalist be to say "I didn't know the facts but I made up my mind and haven't changed it since."

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:25 pm

Fuck it, here's my comment on the Athletic which they won't read or reply to:

Davis: From the moment this case was launched, I believed Arizona was in the most jeopardy.

Telling on yourself. "I didn't know the facts but I presupposed that Arizona was the bad guy." Each of you are a disappointment in not taking deeper consideration to the difference between what is being alleged against NC State and Kansas vs Arizona.

NC State and Kansas: Head coaches and their staffs working hand in hand with shoe reps (who are, by the 6.4.2 bylaw, representatives of the athletic program - especially once brought into help with recruiting) ...to provide impermissible benefits to secure the commitment of recruits. Systemic abuse that occurred over multiple years, violated eligibility, and was never reported on, consulted with via the compliance office, or mitigated.

Arizona: Assistant coach takes bribe money for a single off season.

Despite the media's best efforts, Arizona (along with OK State) is less culpable in this scandal than any other program listed. They're the only programs not found to have caused players to be made ineligible (either through payments from agents, shoe companies, or coaches). There is also little history of NCAA level 1 violations at Arizona, and none for Miller.

Auburn: two ineligible players, history of level 1 violations, history of violations for Pearl, more money taken over a longer period of time.

USC: two ineligible players, lengthy history of level 1 violations, more money taken over a longer period of time.

Even LSU has more damning evidence in Will Wade's discussion of an intermediary getting in the way of his strong ass offer that was titled too far towards taking care of the player's family and did not leave the intermediary "enough of the piece of the pie in the deal."

The constant dragging of Arizona through the mud because that's what you thought "at the moment the case was announced" is journalistic malpractice with actual repercussions for the program and its fans.

Login • Register