Is Graham a better coach than Rich Rod?

[dc4azcats]

DC

First, I am still struggling to follow your logic using past results and coaching staffs, because your theory does not take into account the evolution of the team itself. UA is fielding a very different team than last year, as is Utah. When looking at college football, you have to take into account the fact that these kids are maturing and hypothetically improving from year to year. So again, the results of the last couple of years have no bearing, just like consecutive losses to UCLA and ASU had/have no bearing on this years games.

Second, I think you are not giving the defense and special teams enough value in games. Utah lacks a passing game, I completely agree. But they have an excellent defense, special teams, and running game. Their game is not about putting up a ton of points. They grind their opponents, and place a lot of emphasis on field position. Generally, they have been able to come up with a few key turnovers to turn the tide of the game in their favor, even if late. So all that said, I stand by what I said prior: If RR is able to lead UA to a win over Utah on the road in November, it will be because of excellent game planning and a complete lack of mistakes, i.e. key turnovers. The offensive line will have to play lights out, because when Utah is able to get pressure rushing four, their opponents are usually in trouble.

If you can't tell I place a lot of emphasis on defense.

If the scheme hasn't changed for either team, meaning the coaching staffs are the same, then I trust Arizona to come out on top. In this instance, that the UA coaching staff has the formula if you will, to beat Utah. They've proven it 2 years in a row with 2 completely different talent levels on both sides of the ball with very similar results both times, except you think for some reason TY will be different? If Utah had a passing game then I could and would agree with you but they don't. So I look at our ability to stop the run and specifically at our ability to stop Utah's run game. We've shown that we can with 2 different teams and I would argue that TY's team might be the best yet at stopping Utah because what they do plays to our strength. Ippolito and Scooby are great run blitzers and showed it against Ucla. You can't do that every play vs Ucla or SC because they have guys like Jack that have the speed to beat us to the corner if we blitz and don't get there in time. Second, what Utah does by running between the tackles and only Wilson keeping it and taking it outside plays to what Tevis and Bondo do best which is coming up untouched and making tackles on the outside.

That's all I got and will move on as you obviously see it differently. We will see.

[CalStateTempe]

Yup stupid argument on my part; I thought he was buried around #3 or #4.

[azpenguin]

Yup stupid argument on my part; I thought he was buried around #3 or #4.

No, that's not how a message board works. You don't admit to anything you say possibly being wrong and you defend your original point to absurd lengths. You're not new here, you should know that

[Harvey Specter]

DC

First, I am still struggling to follow your logic using past results and coaching staffs, because your theory does not take into account the evolution of the team itself. UA is fielding a very different team than last year, as is Utah. When looking at college football, you have to take into account the fact that these kids are maturing and hypothetically improving from year to year. So again, the results of the last couple of years have no bearing, just like consecutive losses to UCLA and ASU had/have no bearing on this years games.

Second, I think you are not giving the defense and special teams enough value in games. Utah lacks a passing game, I completely agree. But they have an excellent defense, special teams, and running game. Their game is not about putting up a ton of points. They grind their opponents, and place a lot of emphasis on field position. Generally, they have been able to come up with a few key turnovers to turn the tide of the game in their favor, even if late. So all that said, I stand by what I said prior: If RR is able to lead UA to a win over Utah on the road in November, it will be because of excellent game planning and a complete lack of mistakes, i.e. key turnovers. The offensive line will have to play lights out, because when Utah is able to get pressure rushing four, their opponents are usually in trouble.

If you can't tell I place a lot of emphasis on defense.

If the scheme hasn't changed for either team, meaning the coaching staffs are the same, then I trust Arizona to come out on top. In this instance, that the UA coaching staff has the formula if you will, to beat Utah. They've proven it 2 years in a row with 2 completely different talent levels on both sides of the ball with very similar results both times, except you think for some reason TY will be different? If Utah had a passing game then I could and would agree with you but they don't. So I look at our ability to stop the run and specifically at our ability to stop Utah's run game. We've shown that we can with 2 different teams and I would argue that TY's team might be the best yet at stopping Utah because what they do plays to our strength. Ippolito and Scooby are great run blitzers and showed it against Ucla. You can't do that every play vs Ucla or SC because they have guys like Jack that have the speed to beat us to the corner if we blitz and don't get there in time. Second, what Utah does by running between the tackles and only Wilson keeping it and taking it outside plays to what Tevis and Bondo do best which is coming up untouched and making tackles on the outside.

That's all I got and will move on as you obviously see it differently. We will see.

So if a UA coaching staff has beaten an opponent 2 years in a row, they have the "winning formula" and will win because of it. See Utah.

But if a UA coaching staff has lost to an opponent 2 years in a row, it does not matter because this is a new season and the players are different. See UCLA, ASU.

Tough logic to follow but I hope it works...

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

DC

First, I am still struggling to follow your logic using past results and coaching staffs, because your theory does not take into account the evolution of the team itself. UA is fielding a very different team than last year, as is Utah. When looking at college football, you have to take into account the fact that these kids are maturing and hypothetically improving from year to year. So again, the results of the last couple of years have no bearing, just like consecutive losses to UCLA and ASU had/have no bearing on this years games.

Second, I think you are not giving the defense and special teams enough value in games. Utah lacks a passing game, I completely agree. But they have an excellent defense, special teams, and running game. Their game is not about putting up a ton of points. They grind their opponents, and place a lot of emphasis on field position. Generally, they have been able to come up with a few key turnovers to turn the tide of the game in their favor, even if late. So all that said, I stand by what I said prior: If RR is able to lead UA to a win over Utah on the road in November, it will be because of excellent game planning and a complete lack of mistakes, i.e. key turnovers. The offensive line will have to play lights out, because when Utah is able to get pressure rushing four, their opponents are usually in trouble.

If you can't tell I place a lot of emphasis on defense.

If the scheme hasn't changed for either team, meaning the coaching staffs are the same, then I trust Arizona to come out on top. In this instance, that the UA coaching staff has the formula if you will, to beat Utah. They've proven it 2 years in a row with 2 completely different talent levels on both sides of the ball with very similar results both times, except you think for some reason TY will be different? If Utah had a passing game then I could and would agree with you but they don't. So I look at our ability to stop the run and specifically at our ability to stop Utah's run game. We've shown that we can with 2 different teams and I would argue that TY's team might be the best yet at stopping Utah because what they do plays to our strength. Ippolito and Scooby are great run blitzers and showed it against Ucla. You can't do that every play vs Ucla or SC because they have guys like Jack that have the speed to beat us to the corner if we blitz and don't get there in time. Second, what Utah does by running between the tackles and only Wilson keeping it and taking it outside plays to what Tevis and Bondo do best which is coming up untouched and making tackles on the outside.

That's all I got and will move on as you obviously see it differently. We will see.

So if a UA coaching staff has beaten an opponent 2 years in a row, they have the "winning formula" and will win because of it. See Utah.

But if a UA coaching staff has lost to an opponent 2 years in a row, it does not matter because this is a new season and the players are different. See UCLA, ASU.

Tough logic to follow but I hope it works...

Exactly.

[dc4azcats]

You guys are right. Utah is awesome and it's been nothing but dumb luck that we've beaten them the last 2 years. They will probably rush for 300 yards and we will be lucky to be in the game by halftime.

And Assu? Wow!! Just Wow!!

[catinfl]

Utah has a great defense and has great special teams, but we're going to sell out to stop the run and I have confidence in Arizona doing that. Ippolitto isn't good in pass coverage, but he is great at stopping the run. Scooby will do Scooby and Tevis, Grandon, and Bondurant love to come up and stop the run. I don't see a problem with us stopping them. Moving the ball will be interesting. As long as our receivers and line show up we have one of the best offenses in the conference, but it is an if. I love our matchup with asu a lot better than Utah. We'll know a lot more about the Cracker's team after this weekend.

[azcat49]

Hate to say it but I think that ASSU beats the irish this week. Ands what is with the over/under starting at 57 in our game with CU. We are favored by 15. I would have guessed 65+

[catinfl]

Hate to say it but I think that ASSU beats the irish this week. Ands what is with the over/under starting at 57 in our game with CU. We are favored by 15. I would have guessed 65+

Hundley rushed for 72 yards against them and they haven't faced a guy who could throw and run well like Golson since Hundley and we all know how that game went.. Notre Dame shouldn't have a problem moving the ball

[dc4azcats]

Hate to say it but I think that ASSU beats the irish this week. Ands what is with the over/under starting at 57 in our game with CU. We are favored by 15. I would have guessed 65+

Hundley rushed for 72 yards against them and they haven't faced a guy who could throw and run well like Golson since Hundley and we all know how that game went.. Notre Dame shouldn't have a problem moving the ball

Agree. I think ND rolls them and exposes their D like Ucla did.

[cats101]

ND also has to stop Asu

[catinfl]

ND also has to stop Asu

They've averaged 28 points a game in the conference nothing earth shattering and Kelly hasn't looked too great in recent games.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

ND also has to stop Asu

They've averaged 28 points a game in the conference nothing earth shattering and Kelly hasn't looked too great in recent games.

Their offense has not looked great lately but look at who they played. Stanford and Utah are arguably the two best defenses in the league, and a game at Seattle in 50+ mph winds which basically forced them to play into the Seattle defensive strength: the UW front seven. Though their run game looks better with Kelly healthy, the offense seemed to really move the ball with their backup QB in.

Anyone consider what happens should Notre Dame beat ASU and USC? If Notre Dame sweeps the Pac-12 this year (they already beat Stanford), is it possible they get the nod over the Pac 12 champ, even if that champ is a one loss Oregon?

[cats101]

They've also faced some of the better defenses in conference so far.

[azcat49]

This is just my opinion but I think a 1 loss PAC team and a 1 loss ND team would make the playoff over say a 1 loss B1G school. I think they would join the SEC winner and FSU in the 4 team playoff.

That said, I think ASSU beats the irish this Saturday and comes to AZ stadium 10-1 and on the cusp of getting an opportunity to play Oregon to get in the 4 team play off. Man that would suck for us.

[azgreg]

ND will be the first offense ASSu has faced in a month.
Utah #89
Washington #96
Stanford #73

ND #34

[Merkin]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/c ... /18465123/

Arizona State junior defensive end Demetrius Cherry – suspended for Saturday's victory over Utah – recently was arrested for misdemeanor DUI.

According to Tempe Police, Cherry was arrested at 1:46 a.m. Friday near University Drive and South McAllister Ave. He was released at the location. Cherry's blood-alcohol content is not yet known.

Cherry has been a significant part of ASU's recent defensive reversal. Coach Todd Graham started Cherry at defensive end against Stanford and Washington and praised the junior's contributions.

In seven games, Cherry has 12 tackles, including one for a loss.

At his weekly news conference Monday, Graham said he wasn't sure if Cherry would play in Saturday's contest against Notre Dame. Graham was not immediately available to comment Tuesday.

[gumby]

Graham gets the nod, so far. This can change, but his results are superior. Head to head should end the discussion, but woulda-coulda-shoulda will always fight on. There's zero chance a Wildcat would argue otherwise if we had Graham, they had RichRod and the results were the same.

(Utah making the FG does not equal victory, btw. Hate this argument. Reminds me of when we beat WSU on a controversial Hail Mary in 1999. Coug fans say they would've won the game otherwise. It would've been tied without it. And ASU would've still gotten a possession if Utah makes the FG).

Spin the results all you want, but I'll take scoreboard any day.

[Merkin]

Graham gets the nod, so far. This can change, but his results are superior. Head to head should end the discussion, but woulda-coulda-shoulda will always fight on. There's zero chance a Wildcat would argue otherwise if we had Graham, they had RichRod and the results were the same.

(Utah making the FG does not equal victory, btw. Hate this argument. Reminds me of when we beat WSU on a controversial Hail Mary in 1999. Coug fans say they would've won the game otherwise. It would've been tied without it. And ASU would've still gotten a possession if Utah makes the FG).

Spin the results all you want, but I'll take scoreboard any day.

[gumby]

Apparently, only counts in hoops.

[PieceOfMeat]

Graham gets the nod, so far. This can change, but his results are superior. Head to head should end the discussion, but woulda-coulda-shoulda will always fight on. There's zero chance a Wildcat would argue otherwise if we had Graham, they had RichRod and the results were the same.

(Utah making the FG does not equal victory, btw. Hate this argument. Reminds me of when we beat WSU on a controversial Hail Mary in 1999. Coug fans say they would've won the game otherwise. It would've been tied without it. And ASU would've still gotten a possession if Utah makes the FG).

Spin the results all you want, but I'll take scoreboard any day.

Yeah, pretty much this.

[azcat49]

You can't argue that CTG has done great things but does that make him a better coach? I think RR is a master at his craft offensively and I think CTG excels on defense. I know for aa fact he spends his entire practice with the defense and he lets his OC and staff handle the offense. I would assume RR is the opposite

I also think the difference in results has a lot more on ASSU's very liberal standards on acceptance. I know we have the same requirements in many areas but we all know ASSU allows amost 97% of applications into their undergrad studies. This makes it easier for problem students athletes and JUCO kids that can't get their classes to transfer. RR has alluded to this and says we have to change soem of the ways we recruit to nuild a winner as did Stanford with Harbaugh.

I have no doubt that if the coaches were switched we would be experiencing similar results at both schools. I also think that if the UofA were to relax our entrance requirements for football athletes we would see an immediate uptick in recruiting and ultimately results which might tilt this discussion in another direction

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

You can't argue that CTG has done great things but does that make him a better coach? I think RR is a master at his craft offensively and I think CTG excels on defense. I know for aa fact he spends his entire practice with the defense and he lets his OC and staff handle the offense. I would assume RR is the opposite

I also think the difference in results has a lot more on ASSU's very liberal standards on acceptance. I know we have the same requirements in many areas but we all know ASSU allows amost 97% of applications into their undergrad studies. This makes it easier for problem students athletes and JUCO kids that can't get their classes to transfer. RR has alluded to this and says we have to change soem of the ways we recruit to nuild a winner as did Stanford with Harbaugh.

I have no doubt that if the coaches were switched we would be experiencing similar results at both schools. I also think that if the UofA were to relax our entrance requirements for football athletes we would see an immediate uptick in recruiting and ultimately results which might tilt this discussion in another direction

You are really reaching here. Where are you getting this stuff? Does ASU have a higher acceptance rate in general? Absolutely. But that has absolutely no bearing on student athletes, and particularly the football and basketball recruiting. The advantage you are declaring is simply non-existent. You want to point to an advantage for TG and ASU, consider the location of the schools. Many kids are more drawn to the bigger market.

[ASUHATER!]

Outside of the territorial cup Graham is 23-10. RR is 22-10. About the same amount of big wins. Graham has a bowl loss. They are equal, almost with a RR edge with his offensive prowess in my opinion. But since Graham is 2-0 against us, he gets the nod for now.

[UofAlum05]

This is a dumb thread. I hate Todd Graham probably more than anyone. I hated him during his Tulsa days when ECU used to whoop his whiny a$$ every year. With that being said I think Todd Graham was the right hire at the right time for ASU and RichRod was the right hire at the right time for UofA.

If Todd Graham had taken over a team with the defensive talent (lack there of) that RRod inherited or given Denker at QB his 2nd season then we wouldn't even be having this convo. RRod was able to do more with less than I think any other coach UofA could have hired at the time. ASU has always had talent but was woefully undisciplined. Graham brought in some discipline and cleaned up a few things. Once he did that then that talent found it much easier to win.

As far as recruiting. I think we need to judge that in Season 5 for both coaches.

As far as I am concerned there is nobody else I would want coaching football for UofA right now than Rich Rod. I am sure ASU fans would say the same about Graham.

[gumby]

Agree that RR better on O, and TG better on D.

So once again kicking lets us down.

It's like the opposite of the programs during The Streak. We won with defense and special teams.

[pokinmik]

Yea if talking UA-ASU rivalry Graham has to have the nod right now. As Hater pointed out, our two losses in the T-cup are basically the difference. But coaching in general, career-wise so far? Rich Rod all the way. Two BCS bowls and two top-10 finishes, something Graham doesn't have. Their records are actually quite similar though percentage-wise. Both had some missed opportunities and/or bad situations too.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

Outside of the territorial cup Graham is 23-10. RR is 22-10. About the same amount of big wins. Graham has a bowl loss. They are equal, almost with a RR edge with his offensive prowess in my opinion. But since Graham is 2-0 against us, he gets the nod for now.

Thats one way of looking at it. But given the overall lack of satisfaction on this board with the OOC scheduling, try taking a look at their respective conference records, its not even close.

I honestly think all three of UCLA, UA, and ASU made the right coaching hires for their schools. If you switch any of those three coaches around those three schools, I trully believe you dont see similar results. With CU seemingly improving, USC sure to get its depth back, and Utah starting to put things together, I believe the Pac 12 South will be giving the SEC West a run as best division in college ball in less than 5 years.

[azcat49]

No reaching at all Scummy. That is right form the offices of the UofA football coaches and those around it. Their are many examples of at risk athletes that were thought to be AZ leans where we had to back off because we knew they would not be accepted and their are ven more examples of JUCO kids whose credits could or would not transfer but the mantra of everyone gets in at ASSU worked for them.

Their is a reason Stoops called ASSU a Jr college

[azgreg]

It's my understanding that the acceptance criteria of the 2 schools is identical.

[MountainCat]

It's my understanding that the acceptance criteria of the 2 schools is identical.

The criteria is the same.........but is interpreted differently

[azcat49]

It may be but how does ASSU accept 97% and we accept about 30%. Their are many JUCO credits that have no college to accept them and so on and so on.

You will hear RR talk about how we have to change some things in how we recruit and he isn;t talking about NCAA rules or how his staff sorts and contacts players. He is talking about how we accept kids and get exceptions for some at risk athletes. ASSU gets them all in and we all have known that for years.

Trust me, their is no one ASSU won't recruit in fear they can't get it. Not the same at all at the UofA no matter what Scummy Dick says

[azgreg]

It may be but how does ASSU accept 97% and we accept about 30%. Their are many JUCO credits that have no cloeege to accept them and so on and so on.

You will hear RR talk about how we have to change some things in how we recruit and he isn;t talking about NCAA rules or how his staff sorts and contacts players. He is talking about how we accept kids and get exceptions for some at risk athletes. ASSU gets them all in and we all have known that for years.

Trust me, their is no one ASSU won't recruit in fear they can't get it. Not the same at all at the UofA no matter what Scummy Dick says

Are you talking student acceptance rates or student/athlete?

[cats101]

Outside of the territorial cup Graham is 23-10. RR is 22-10. About the same amount of big wins. Graham has a bowl loss. They are equal, almost with a RR edge with his offensive prowess in my opinion. But since Graham is 2-0 against us, he gets the nod for now.

I don't see how you can just throw those out when they are very important in the grand scheme of things. If they don't lose to Oregon State they could very well win the South again.

They have been better overall. All this "better on d" "better on o" cherry picking is irrelevant. It's like we've forgot defense and special teams still count, especially when offense isn't working. Very easy for an offense to have an "off night" vs the defense. Of course their records are similar. Arizona had played thelittle sisters of the poor in all but 1 non conference game.

[azcat49]

General student body. I actually don't know our acceptance rate but I got the ASSU rate from the people I was talking to about the disparity of who we can bring in and continue to pursue. It is a real issue and something RR wants to get fixed so we have a true level playing field.

[Merkin]

UA 77%
ASU 80%

[azgreg]

UA 77%
ASU 80%

Those are the numbers I saw from US News and World Report.

[azcat49]

Their it is. That 3% so all the 4 star guys you would want Thx Merk

You guys would probably know better on the struggles technically we might havwe in getting kids in. I just know what I was told and it is an issue in the coaches eye's from a recruiting standpoint and ASSU has the advantage on many of the at risk kids and especially at the JUCO ranks

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

No reaching at all Scummy. That is right form the offices of the UofA football coaches and those around it. Their are many examples of at risk athletes that were thought to be AZ leans where we had to back off because we knew they would not be accepted and their are ven more examples of JUCO kids whose credits could or would not transfer but the mantra of everyone gets in at ASSU worked for them.

Their is a reason Stoops called ASSU a Jr college

ASU also has a history of recruiting kids that never qualify. Their defense this year was hedging a lot of their bets on two defensive recruits that never qualified, one a four star defensive lineman, and the other a 3 star defensive end. Outside of Grahams first two classes, ASU regularly struggles to get their recruits on campus. (BTW, if RR faced any substantial academic hurdles in recruiting, he would have walked away from Keenan Walker a long time ago. The kid has a steep uphill battle in pursuing eligibility to say the least.)

IMO the AD would be basically shooting itself in the foot as most of division 1 football schools allow some sort of special admissions for their student athletes. "At California, one of the country's most selective public universities, Golden Bear football players were 43 times more likely to gain special admissions than non-athletes from 2002 to 2004." http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4781264

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

It may be but how does ASSU accept 97% and we accept about 30%. Their are many JUCO credits that have no college to accept them and so on and so on.

You will hear RR talk about how we have to change some things in how we recruit and he isn;t talking about NCAA rules or how his staff sorts and contacts players. He is talking about how we accept kids and get exceptions for some at risk athletes. ASSU gets them all in and we all have known that for years.

Trust me, their is no one ASSU won't recruit in fear they can't get it. Not the same at all at the UofA no matter what Scummy Dick says

Simple, they have like 50 campuses around the state. They have more classrooms than students maybe?

[gumby]

ASU is "all-in" on online learning, too. They run ads here. Might appeal to some recruits who only want to step foot on campus for practice and games.

Just like Johnny Bench, er, Football.

[Daryl Zero]

I'm very happy with RichRod.

[azcat49]

The recruits that ASSU takes a flyer on we know we have no chance at all of getting in. I would bet that every kid we thought we had a chance getting in (especially JUCO) and didn't either got into ASSU OR could have.

Plain and simple it's just easier to do and they dont have to grant exceptions.

I think this whole thread is crazy. Put RR at ASSU and he will look like CTG and visa versa. Both are very solid on there side of the ball

[Merkin]

Some schools allow athletics to run their own admissions. With Cal Poly, as long as the athlete meets the minimum CSU requirements they can get in. They still have to compete in class against non-athletes who were accepted into the normal application cycle.

CP has a 31% acceptance rate.

However, the UC schools are different. Look at Cal (17% acceptance rate) and UCLA (18%). One requires the athletes to go through the normal admissions process, the other allows athletics to admit them.

UC schools fart in Arizona school's general direction.

I'm very happy with RichRod.

Same here.

[gumby]

I'm fine with RichRod, too. Exceeded expectations so far. Not a fan of the scheduling, defensive scheme and kicking. The offense, however, far exceeds that of previous coaches.

Also mindful that it's the rare university that excels at hoops and football at the same time. So it's asking a lot to have both at an elite level.

Hoops: UConn, UA, KU, UNC, UK, Duke, Syracuse.

Football: SEC schools (but not UK). FSU. Oregon.

Michigan State and Ohio State are having nice runs in both sports. Texas and Florida had them in the past, and probably will in the future. But, again, rare.

[Merkin]

Whatever happened to Wolfman Duke? 7-1 baaaaby!

[OSUCat]

I'm very happy with RichRod.

This is correct.

I still would rather have Richard Rodriguez over Graham, no matter what the 3-year winning percentage is.

[catinfl]

Asu finds ways to get football recruits to get qualified. They can take higher risk players when we can't.

[gumby]

Asu finds ways to get football recruits to get qualified. They can take higher risk players when we can't.

Can't or won't? Find this issue confusing.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

Asu finds ways to get football recruits to get qualified. They can take higher risk players when we can't.

Can't or won't? Find this issue confusing.

Neither. He is digging for excuses to use as justification for Graham's success thus far.