Tommy Lloyd

[Beachcat97]

Well done Tommy. You just made me a believer.

Welcome to the bandwagon my friend.

I’m more like in an Uber behind the wagon waiting to see if it busts an axle or one of the mules throws a shoe.

Not sure it's been mentioned yet, but Lloyd is in a great position to make a run at national coach of the year.

Oh my…

Can someone get Beachy a napkin so he can wipe off whatever that is on his chin?

It’s been five games. Maybe hold off on commissioning the statue.

We’ll revisit this, Chi. Your cynicism is disappointing.

[Chicat]

If Coach Tommy wins national coach of the year I’ll give $100 to whatever charity you want.

If he doesn’t, you have to give $50 to the BearDownWildcats fund:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6363

You taking that bet Beachcat?

[dovecanyoncat]

I love this bar.

[DrWildcat]

The one thing that we can compare directly between Miller and Lloyd is style of play. Without a doubt Lloyd's style of play is much more enjoyable to watch. Although, winning is also fun and I will give Miller credit for doing that often.

[FreeSpiritCat]

The one thing that we can compare directly between Miller and Lloyd is style of play. Without a doubt Lloyd's style of play is much more enjoyable to watch. Although, winning is also fun and I will give Miller credit for doing that often.

What I like is pulling Robinson as an assistant from UNC. Murphy is great too because he can relate to young talent. I like Sean Miller, but like Tommy Lloyd too. I believe CTL has a higher ceiling because he makes the game fun. We may have had trouble with recruits this year because of a new coach. But fun sells and Lloyd knows how to coach. I like the idea of him teaching players how to read the game. IMO, that is the best way to coach. Bobby Knight ran a motion offense where he taught his players to read the situation, instead of playing in set play. I also believe that teaching players how to read the situation sets them up to become better players. Wouldn't being cerebral be more desirable to NBA teams?

It is still early to anoint CTL as a basketball God, but I am looking forward to seeing what he will accomplish. I am very optimistic about this hire. Sean Miller is a very good coach that should be hired by someone else. Yet, my heart tells me that CTL is an upgrade. And, as you stated, his team is more enjoyable to watch. I expect McKale to sell out going forward.

[Beachcat97]

If Coach Tommy wins national coach of the year I’ll give $100 to whatever charity you want.

If he doesn’t, you have to give $50 to the BearDownWildcats fund:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6363

You taking that bet Beachcat?

I'm done making bets on message boards, but I'll be sure to bear in mind your position on this question. I'm feeling pretty optimistic about our new coach.

[midnightx]

The one thing that we can compare directly between Miller and Lloyd is style of play. Without a doubt Lloyd's style of play is much more enjoyable to watch. Although, winning is also fun and I will give Miller credit for doing that often.

Agreed. While I was watching the game, I was thinking that I had not enjoyed watching Arizona basketball this much in quite some time. Not because of all the drama over the past few years, but because the style of play was simply fun to watch. It was quick and energetic, not slow and plodding. Yes, it helped that the team was firing on all cylinders and playing a great game against a highly ranked opponent, but regardless, the style of play was a lot of fun to watch.

[Beachcat97]

The one thing that we can compare directly between Miller and Lloyd is style of play. Without a doubt Lloyd's style of play is much more enjoyable to watch. Although, winning is also fun and I will give Miller credit for doing that often.

Agreed. While I was watching the game, I was thinking that I had not enjoyed watching Arizona basketball this much in quite some time. Not because of all the drama over the past few years, but because the style of play was simply fun to watch. It was quick and energetic, not slow and plodding. Yes, it helped that the team was firing on all cylinders and playing a great game against a highly ranked opponent, but regardless, the style of play was a lot of fun to watch.

Really sounds like a lot of us are having the same reaction to this team's first weeks.

Going forward, I'm wondering which will be our x-factors. Aside from just staying healthy, what does Coach Lloyd need to focus on to make this team a legit contender in March? It seems like this roster has enough to be dangerous in a single-elimination format, against almost any team in the country. I actually agree with 97cats who, here or in the other thread, said that bumps in the road are coming, and it's a little silly to expect otherwise. That Illinois game is looking more winnable, but winning at Tennessee will be difficult, as will our road games against all the expected top Pac teams. I haven't seen anyone do this elsewhere yet, so here's my projection for the rest of the season (wins in bold):

vs SAC
vs WASH
@ ORST
vs WYO
@ 14 ILL
vs UNCO
vs CBU
@ 15 TENN
@ 2 UCLA
@ 24 USC
@ ASU
vs COLO
vs UTAH
@ STAN
@ CAL
vs ASU
vs 2 UCLA
vs 24 USC
@ WSU
@ WASH
vs ORST
vs ORE
@ UTAH
@ COLO
vs STAN
vs CAL

I'll admit: it does feel a little crazy to post this projection because it would put us at a staggering 26-5 (16-4), but looking at our remaining OOC games and a watered down Pac 12, we just might be fortunate to have a team this good in this particular year.

Feel free to call this projection completely insane.

[Chicat]

If Coach Tommy wins national coach of the year I’ll give $100 to whatever charity you want.

If he doesn’t, you have to give $50 to the BearDownWildcats fund:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6363

You taking that bet Beachcat?

I'm done making bets on message boards, but I'll be sure to bear in mind your position on this question. I'm feeling pretty optimistic about our new coach.

No one has to leave the board or change their sig. One of us will just have to give money to a good cause.

Your lack of a charitable spirit is disappointing.

[Alieberman]

I’ll take the bet

[Beachcat97]

I’ll take the bet

Thanks, Alieberman.

Chi, there ya go.

[Chicat]

You’re a good man Ari.

[Spaceman Spiff]

The one thing that we can compare directly between Miller and Lloyd is style of play. Without a doubt Lloyd's style of play is much more enjoyable to watch. Although, winning is also fun and I will give Miller credit for doing that often.

What I like is pulling Robinson as an assistant from UNC. Murphy is great too because he can relate to young talent. I like Sean Miller, but like Tommy Lloyd too. I believe CTL has a higher ceiling because he makes the game fun. We may have had trouble with recruits this year because of a new coach. But fun sells and Lloyd knows how to coach. I like the idea of him teaching players how to read the game. IMO, that is the best way to coach. Bobby Knight ran a motion offense where he taught his players to read the situation, instead of playing in set play. I also believe that teaching players how to read the situation sets them up to become better players. Wouldn't being cerebral be more desirable to NBA teams?

It is still early to anoint CTL as a basketball God, but I am looking forward to seeing what he will accomplish. I am very optimistic about this hire. Sean Miller is a very good coach that should be hired by someone else. Yet, my heart tells me that CTL is an upgrade. And, as you stated, his team is more enjoyable to watch. I expect McKale to sell out going forward.

I'm of the mind not to get too high or too low. Lloyd has handled this team very well. He is likely to have moments in the future that are more rocky.

The good times won't last forever, but the sky isn't falling if a bad time occurs. Lloyd's handling of this roster has been great so far. How he continues, obtains his own talent and creates a culture will determine how his tenure evolves.

Some new coaches (Kevin Ollie) look great to start and crater fast. Some look great and evolve into long term solutions (Tony Bennett, etc.). Neither type really happens without some adversity, though. Lloyd won't be undefeated forever, but dealing with the inevitable adversity is what differentiates the good coaches.

[Alieberman]

You’re a good man Ari.

It's a win-win for me!

[97cats]

let me know where to donate - i'd like to donate

PM me the venmo thank you

EDIT: did a little investigating and found the email for Venmo - $75 thicker

happy thanksgiving!

[EastCoastCat]

If Coach Tommy wins national coach of the year I’ll give $100 to whatever charity you want.

If he doesn’t, you have to give $50 to the BearDownWildcats fund:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6363

You taking that bet Beachcat?

I'm done making bets on message boards, but I'll be sure to bear in mind your position on this question. I'm feeling pretty optimistic about our new coach.

No one has to leave the board or change their sig. One of us will just have to give money to a good cause.

Your lack of a charitable spirit is disappointing.

I'm going to donate $50 to our fund just to watch this thread go back and forth...

[Spaceman Spiff]

If Coach Tommy wins national coach of the year I’ll give $100 to whatever charity you want.

If he doesn’t, you have to give $50 to the BearDownWildcats fund:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6363

You taking that bet Beachcat?

I'm done making bets on message boards, but I'll be sure to bear in mind your position on this question. I'm feeling pretty optimistic about our new coach.

No one has to leave the board or change their sig. One of us will just have to give money to a good cause.

Your lack of a charitable spirit is disappointing.

Are people talking OnlyFans or legitimate charity?

[Alieberman]

let me know where to donate - i'd like to donate

PM me the venmo thank you

EDIT: did a little investigating and found the email for Venmo - $75 thicker

happy thanksgiving!

Awesome thanks!

And Happy Thanksgiving to you!

[Chicat]

If Coach Tommy wins national coach of the year I’ll give $100 to whatever charity you want.

If he doesn’t, you have to give $50 to the BearDownWildcats fund:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6363

You taking that bet Beachcat?

I'm done making bets on message boards, but I'll be sure to bear in mind your position on this question. I'm feeling pretty optimistic about our new coach.

No one has to leave the board or change their sig. One of us will just have to give money to a good cause.

Your lack of a charitable spirit is disappointing.

Are people talking OnlyFans or legitimate charity?

It would have been Beachcat’s choice but I don’t think BustyWinter’s OF counts as a legit charity.

[RawleArenas]

I like what's been said about tempering expectations, there's still a lot of basketball yet to be played. I've been critical of Lloyd's recruiting since being hired, but if he's able to pull a Billy Donovan and convince the entire team to return including those with guaranteed NBA stock, I will be thoroughly impressed. I personally think three years in college is good for everyone, unless you're a Durant or Anthony Davis type person.

[Beachcat97]

I like what's been said about tempering expectations, there's still a lot of basketball yet to be played. I've been critical of Lloyd's recruiting since being hired, but if he's able to pull a Billy Donovan and convince the entire team to return including those with guaranteed NBA stock, I will be thoroughly impressed. I personally think three years in college is good for everyone, unless you're a Durant or Anthony Davis type person.

Gonna take a miracle to keep Mathurin in school. Starting to think the same about Koloko.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I like what's been said about tempering expectations, there's still a lot of basketball yet to be played. I've been critical of Lloyd's recruiting since being hired, but if he's able to pull a Billy Donovan and convince the entire team to return including those with guaranteed NBA stock, I will be thoroughly impressed. I personally think three years in college is good for everyone, unless you're a Durant or Anthony Davis type person.

I would not count on Tubelis and Mathurin under any circumstances. Koloko has to be on the first round radar at this point too.

It's why I think Lloyd has to be able to restock talent. The reality is just that trying to wiggle one more year out almost never occurs and can't be a long term part of the plan.

[Beachcat97]

The reality is just that trying to wiggle one more year out almost never occurs and can't be a long term part of the plan.

Unless you’re the 2021-22 UCLA Bruins.

Still can’t believe they got their whole team back. It’s the kind of thing that *never* happens, certainly not to us. We can go through our year to year turnover and find several seasons where having everyone return would’ve meant a preseason top 5 ranking.

[Alieberman]

I don't think we will really know about Tommy's recruiting until sanctions have come and gone... but I see no reason why he won't be able to recruit at a high level.

(AZ is still west coast elite + Tommy style of play + WINNING = Top recruits

[Alieberman]

Back too the topic of comparing Miller / Tommy

The most disappointing year under Miller had to be the Ayton / Trier team that started with the debacle in Atlantis... ending in a 1st round loss to Buffalo. The entire year that team had difficulty or just didn't get the ball in Ayton's hands for easy baskets under the rim.... game after game.

Fast forward to this year where the entire team seems to be fighting over who can set up Koloko with a lob-dunk (maybe even too often)

You can blame/cite personnel and chemistry... but you can't ignore coaching / game planning for the eventual #1 pick in the draft

[Spaceman Spiff]

The reality is just that trying to wiggle one more year out almost never occurs and can't be a long term part of the plan.

Unless you’re the 2021-22 UCLA Bruins.

Still can’t believe they got their whole team back. It’s the kind of thing that *never* happens, certainly not to us. We can go through our year to year turnover and find several seasons where having everyone return would’ve meant a preseason top 5 ranking.

The part I struggle with is that Mathurin, Tubelis and Koloko all have pro bodies and physical traits. Juzang and Jaquez are good, but neither is an explosive athlete like Mathurin is. Tubelis has elite mobility for his size and Koloko's length is elite.

Physical ability is half of what gets you drafted and Koloko, Tubelis and Mathurin all have great tools.

I mean, look at Trier. He stuck around to be a junior like Juzang and Jaquez and it's because he was similar in being a good player whose physical attributes weren't outstanding. With Koloko, Tubelis and Mathurin, when their game matches their physical talent...goodbye.

[RawleArenas]

As I recall, Ayton won just about every award except for the Naismith. Ayton developed here as well in the short time he was here. The problem I have with people bringing up Buffalo is that they never bring up other coaches who have worse exits like Tony Bennett or even Lute when we had Reeves and Stoudamire and lost in the first round.
I've mentioned this briefly in the past, the most consequential recruitment in the Sean Miller era was PJC. PJC was at best a second option and ideally a third option. Very much like Terrell Brown was our third option last year. Every disappointing tourney exit that we had was with him as the pg (2015-18). From what I've heard, PJC's camp was adamant about being recruited over, which hamstrung Miller and hurt his tourney runs. By the time PJC graduated and the FBI situation was in full swing, the dye had already been cast.

It's one of the few criticisms I had about Miller. Managing expectations is a huge part of coaching, but Miller's strengths far outpace any of his weaknesses. It's unfortunate that only the die hards really appreciate him.

[97cats]

I've mentioned this briefly in the past, the most consequential recruitment in the Sean Miller era was PJC. PJC was at best a second option and ideally a third option. Very much like Terrell Brown was our third option last year. Every disappointing tourney exit that we had was with him as the pg (2015-18). From what I've heard, PJC's camp was adamant about being recruited over, which hamstrung Miller and hurt his tourney runs. By the time PJC graduated and the FBI situation was in full swing, the dye had already been cast.

sadly, this is 100% true - and the subsequent curb-stomping by Wichita State was all it took for the downward spiral to begin, and it never stopped

[Spaceman Spiff]

Back too the topic of comparing Miller / Tommy

The most disappointing year under Miller had to be the Ayton / Trier team that started with the debacle in Atlantis... ending in a 1st round loss to Buffalo. The entire year that team had difficulty or just didn't get the ball in Ayton's hands for easy baskets under the rim.... game after game.

Fast forward to this year where the entire team seems to be fighting over who can set up Koloko with a lob-dunk (maybe even too often)

You can blame/cite personnel and chemistry... but you can't ignore coaching / game planning for the eventual #1 pick in the draft

I have to disagree. 17-18 was a great offensive team, #12 in the nation in points per possession.

We lost that year, particularly to Buffalo, on D. The combo of Ristic and Ayton struggled very much with smaller, quicker teams. Buffalo picked us apart. We were #15 in adjO, good enough for national champ level, but #83 in adjD.

Side note, no one mentions D, but frankly that's more impressive to me this year than offense. We're top 30 offensively, but top 5 in defensive points per possession, giving up a tiny 0.745 PPP.

I think Koloko, Tubelis, Mathurin and Terry always had the tools. Last year, they didn't look ready for the speed at the college level. This year they do and you see what elite length and athleticism can do.

[PHXCATS]

Seeing how Lloyd interacts with the staff and players during the game was great to see. A huge difference from Miller (not saying anyone is right or wrong)

His comments after the Michigan game was LEGENDARY

[Beachcat97]

Back too the topic of comparing Miller / Tommy

The most disappointing year under Miller had to be the Ayton / Trier team that started with the debacle in Atlantis... ending in a 1st round loss to Buffalo. The entire year that team had difficulty or just didn't get the ball in Ayton's hands for easy baskets under the rim.... game after game.

Fast forward to this year where the entire team seems to be fighting over who can set up Koloko with a lob-dunk (maybe even too often)

You can blame/cite personnel and chemistry... but you can't ignore coaching / game planning for the eventual #1 pick in the draft

I have to disagree. 17-18 was a great offensive team, #12 in the nation in points per possession.

We lost that year, particularly to Buffalo, on D. The combo of Ristic and Ayton struggled very much with smaller, quicker teams. Buffalo picked us apart. We were #15 in adjO, good enough for national champ level, but #83 in adjD.

Side note, no one mentions D, but frankly that's more impressive to me this year than offense. We're top 30 offensively, but top 5 in defensive points per possession, giving up a tiny 0.745 PPP.

I think Koloko, Tubelis, Mathurin and Terry always had the tools. Last year, they didn't look ready for the speed at the college level. This year they do and you see what elite length and athleticism can do.

Call me crazy, but I still think the 2019-20 team is up there with the most disappointing. Maybe not *the* most disappointing, but it's in the running. We had the best freshmen class in the Pac, along with a decent returning core. Either that team was vastly overrated on paper (possible), or the coaching and execution were just all wrong. Finished tied for 5th, ffs. That was supposed to be Miller's redemption year.

[RawleArenas]

Chase Jeter was injured and when he played, was passive as a leader. Max Hazzard was a bit of a headcase (and streaky), BWill was not available due to injury (huge impact player) and Dylan Smith kept dribbling off his foot. All of these things made the season underwhelming, but the biggest reason in my opinion is Terry Armstrong. He's like Dalen Terry with better handles, more athleticism and a high ceiling. Someone on here called him Iggy mixed with Durant.

I loved his game. I was looking at some tape of him fairly recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owfFDq1YGDU

Just the thought of him on that team as a swiss army knife always gives me the tingles. Really bummed that he chose to go overseas. He would have been first team by this year, and the though of him and Mathurin on the wing...my goodness.

Seriously, if BWill was available you could shave about 5 games off the loss column. That's basically the difference.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Chase Jeter was injured and when he played, was passive as a leader. Max Hazzard was a bit of a headcase (and streaky), BWill was not available due to injury (huge impact player) and Dylan Smith kept dribbling off his foot. All of these things made the season underwhelming, but the biggest reason in my opinion is Terry Armstrong. He's like Dalen Terry with better handles, more athleticism and a high ceiling. Someone on here called him Iggy mixed with Durant.

I loved his game. I was looking at some tape of him fairly recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owfFDq1YGDU

Just the thought of him on that team as a swiss army knife always gives me the tingles. Really bummed that he chose to go overseas. He would have been first team by this year, and the though of him and Mathurin on the wing...my goodness.

Seriously, if BWill was available you could shave about 5 games off the loss column. That's basically the difference.

I could not agree more. Losing BWill hurt the 19-20 team more than I ever thought it would.

We smashed a good Illinois team, but then people figured out Nico was the only perimeter player we had who could both make 3's and drive. Dylan and Hazzard could only shoot. Josh Green could only drive. So Nico was the only guy who wound up really putting pressure on a defense.

We lost only 4 games by more than 5 points and one of those was a 6 point loss. BWill being a dual threat to complement Nico could easily have flipped 7 losses and we'd have been 28-4.

[Beachcat97]

Chase Jeter was injured and when he played, was passive as a leader. Max Hazzard was a bit of a headcase (and streaky), BWill was not available due to injury (huge impact player) and Dylan Smith kept dribbling off his foot. All of these things made the season underwhelming, but the biggest reason in my opinion is Terry Armstrong. He's like Dalen Terry with better handles, more athleticism and a high ceiling. Someone on here called him Iggy mixed with Durant.

I loved his game. I was looking at some tape of him fairly recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owfFDq1YGDU

Just the thought of him on that team as a swiss army knife always gives me the tingles. Really bummed that he chose to go overseas. He would have been first team by this year, and the though of him and Mathurin on the wing...my goodness.

Seriously, if BWill was available you could shave about 5 games off the loss column. That's basically the difference.

Wow, completely forgot about Armstrong.

That 2019-20 team was probably overhyped, and yeah, Jeter and Smith didn't really pan out. Zeke was probably better than expected. Nico, not as good. Green, about what we expected.

Anyway, this is not the right thread for this digression.

Coach Lloyd could conceivably go 26-5 (16-4) in his first season, if we get some breaks and stay healthy.

BTFD

[azcat49]

Just got me thinking, what would Mannion look like in this offense? He would be incredible

[BBQ wildcat]

I don't think we will really know about Tommy's recruiting until sanctions have come and gone... but I see no reason why he won't be able to recruit at a high level.

(AZ is still west coast elite + Tommy style of play + WINNING = Top recruits

I have to disagree -- somewhat, with the bolded part, agree with the rest. This years team was almost entirely put together by Miller, while under the threat of sanctions AND with allegations against him, and not only against the school or against departed coaches. IMO, the threat of sanctions will be very much a secondary consideration in recruiting. The primary hurdle for Tommy really is establishing his creds as a head coach. If he continues the season as he has started, he will have those creds.

[Beachcat97]

Just got me thinking, what would Mannion look like in this offense? He would be incredible

Agree to disagree. Overrated player, imo. How's that pro career going?

[Merkin]

Just got me thinking, what would Mannion look like in this offense? He would be incredible

Agree to disagree. Overrated player, imo. How's that pro career going?

Nico has just as many NBA appearances as Mustafa Shakur and Miles Simon combined.

I imagine it would have been more if he didn't get severely ill.

[Beachcat97]

Just got me thinking, what would Mannion look like in this offense? He would be incredible

Agree to disagree. Overrated player, imo. How's that pro career going?

Nico has just as many NBA appearances as Mustafa Shakur and Miles Simon combined.

I imagine it would have been more if he didn't get severely ill.

I didn't know about his illness. That's terrible, and I wish him a speedy recovery.

I was just commenting on his game. In hindsight, his decision process is weird to me. He made it clear he was a OAD player, but this decision seemed driven more by his player ranking and hype than by actual performance. So he left AZ after one year to be the 48th pick in the draft, with no guaranteed contract. He had a cup of coffee with the Warriors and is now back in Italy, where he always seemed destined to end up.

Maybe he was just too green at AZ and will eventually mature into an NBA-level prospect. I just haven't seen it yet.

[Merkin]

How many NBAers go overseas and eventually make it back into the NBA? I really have no idea.

Just read that some go into the G league just to get a better shot, but less pay.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't think we will really know about Tommy's recruiting until sanctions have come and gone... but I see no reason why he won't be able to recruit at a high level.

(AZ is still west coast elite + Tommy style of play + WINNING = Top recruits

I have to disagree -- somewhat, with the bolded part, agree with the rest. This years team was almost entirely put together by Miller, while under the threat of sanctions AND with allegations against him, and not only against the school or against departed coaches. IMO, the threat of sanctions will be very much a secondary consideration in recruiting. The primary hurdle for Tommy really is establishing his creds as a head coach. If he continues the season as he has started, he will have those creds.

Yup. I said something similar to a friend who used to post here. 75 of 80 points vs Michigan were guys Miller recruited under the threat of sanctions. They looked pretty good.

I mean, if he's going to deliver the results Arizona wants, that talent level is a must. National championship teams always have future pros.

[Alieberman]

I don't think we will really know about Tommy's recruiting until sanctions have come and gone... but I see no reason why he won't be able to recruit at a high level.

(AZ is still west coast elite + Tommy style of play + WINNING = Top recruits

I have to disagree -- somewhat, with the bolded part, agree with the rest. This years team was almost entirely put together by Miller, while under the threat of sanctions AND with allegations against him, and not only against the school or against departed coaches. IMO, the threat of sanctions will be very much a secondary consideration in recruiting. The primary hurdle for Tommy really is establishing his creds as a head coach. If he continues the season as he has started, he will have those creds.

Yup. I said something similar to a friend who used to post here. 75 of 80 points vs Michigan were guys Miller recruited under the threat of sanctions. They looked pretty good.

I mean, if he's going to deliver the results Arizona wants, that talent level is a must. National championship teams always have future pros.

But those 80 points would be closer to 60 if Miller was coaching

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't think we will really know about Tommy's recruiting until sanctions have come and gone... but I see no reason why he won't be able to recruit at a high level.

(AZ is still west coast elite + Tommy style of play + WINNING = Top recruits

I have to disagree -- somewhat, with the bolded part, agree with the rest. This years team was almost entirely put together by Miller, while under the threat of sanctions AND with allegations against him, and not only against the school or against departed coaches. IMO, the threat of sanctions will be very much a secondary consideration in recruiting. The primary hurdle for Tommy really is establishing his creds as a head coach. If he continues the season as he has started, he will have those creds.

Yup. I said something similar to a friend who used to post here. 75 of 80 points vs Michigan were guys Miller recruited under the threat of sanctions. They looked pretty good.

I mean, if he's going to deliver the results Arizona wants, that talent level is a must. National championship teams always have future pros.

But those 80 points would be closer to 60 if Miller was coaching

Eh, I don't understand the need to take shots at Miller. First, it's an inherently unproveable argument about a coach who has had a fair amount of success.

Next, I mean, would it be better if Miller was Sumlin and Lloyd was Fisch? Isn't it better Miller left a cupboard stocked with talent and shouldn't we be a little thankful we get a talented team instead of a giant rebuild?

Finally...well, I want to win, not score 80 or 60. You can win scoring 80 or 60. You can't win without talent. A reason I don't talk trash about Miller is there was always talent. Lloyd is an unknown there, but he's certainly done well with the talent he has.

[Alieberman]

I'm not taking shots at Miller... I'm just giving Lloyd credit for what he is doing

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm not taking shots at Miller... I'm just giving Lloyd credit for what he is doing

Fair enough. It is a natural comparison.

If I misinterpreted, no disrespect.

[EastCoastCat]

Points I think we all can agree on:

- The exit of CSM was handled like shit by our AD/Pres and that will always leave a bad taste in our mouths. Having said that, Miller is to blame for hanging on and being loyal to Book. He will have to live with that.

- Miller was a great coach at AZ from a Wins vs. Losses standpoint and for being a witch in recruiting. His only blemish is not reaching a FF but he knocked on that door several times. He also loved and embraced the program and represented it well for the most part (until the allegations).

- CTL has done an excellent job so far with the talent he was given. His overall approach to the game/style of play seems to have buy in from the entire team so he deserves credit. We will see where that leads us but so far it's been fun to watch. He also deserves credit for keeping the key pieces at Arizona (Kerr, Benn, Terry, Zeus, Koloko). Akinjo is debatable but still the core young players stayed put.

- Jury is still out on CTL's recruiting ability to continue to bring in top flight talent. That we must have to be a consistent "top" team in the country. Miller understood that and I'm sure CTL does too. We will see...

[97cats]

excellent post A+

[Spaceman Spiff]

Points I think we all can agree on:

- The exit of CSM was handled like shit by our AD/Pres and that will always leave a bad taste in our mouths. Having said that, Miller is to blame for hanging on and being loyal to Book. He will have to live with that.

- Miller was a great coach at AZ from a Wins vs. Losses standpoint and for being a witch in recruiting. His only blemish is not reaching a FF but he knocked on that door several times. He also loved and embraced the program and represented it well for the most part (until the allegations).

- CTL has done an excellent job so far with the talent he was given. His overall approach to the game/style of play seems to have buy in from the entire team so he deserves credit. We will see where that leads us but so far it's been fun to watch. He also deserves credit for keeping the key pieces at Arizona (Kerr, Benn, Terry, Zeus, Koloko). Akinjo is debatable but still the core young players stayed put.

- Jury is still out on CTL's recruiting ability to continue to bring in top flight talent. That we must have to be a consistent "top" team in the country. Miller understood that and I'm sure CTL does too. We will see...

Good post.

I'd add three other proposals. The problem with Book ultimately wasn't what he did, it's that he did it stupidly and got caught. One of the glaring lessons of the FBI thing is the NCAA had so little control it was lawless and no one expected an outside agency with actual investigative teeth would step in.

I think Miller deserves some credit for exiting without a messy scene that complicated things. I could excuse him for being pissed, but he just walked away with just a respectful goodbye statement, then kept his mouth shut. Part of the reason a good transition occurred is Miller didn't try to pressure his guys to leave or cause drama.

I also think Lloyd handled taking over for Miller very well. He's been publicly respectful and created zero drama with Miller on his side of things. The focus has clearly been on moving forward without enmity and that's been a very positive aspect of Lloyd's tenure. He's handled it like a good leader, willing to give Miller credit without worrying it will detract from his own share.

[EastCoastCat]

You nailed it Spiff...the transition was virtually seamless and drama free.

Both Miller and Lloyd deserve props for allowing Arizona basketball to be bigger than them.

[dovecanyoncat]

I'm hopeful that Lloyd's recruiting trajectory will resemble Miller's. In their assumption of the reins as UofA head coaches their terms of inheritance differed, but both ended up in their first Arizona teams with talent attributable to a prior genesis. The successful management of that inheritance was for Miller, and will be for Lloyd, a key to a reputation that brings in good players.

In comparison, I guess that Lloyd had more years of work under his belt recruiting for Gonzaga than Miller did for Xavier, but I could be full of shit on that. If Tommy can bank a 2021-22 season to equal what Miller did with DWill, then the unknowns about recruiting should be well-resolved.