Bear Down Wildcats

Getting the T helped.

A road win and a T against these great officials? Sounds like a great day. Id say that got their attention.

jajoyce wrote:Putting Rawle on Travis and Rawle bearing down on defense changed this game. I know it was probably out of necessity with Aytons foul trouble, but going with Rawle instead of Pinder changed the tide. It also gave us 4 outside shooters against their zone and I think we hit three threes in a row at that time.

That and the F*#^ you to the ref.

Going small even if out of necessity was the best strategy, completely changed the game. He still has to work on the press though.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Getting the T helped.

Lute used to do the same thing, very effectively, although Lute never cursed.

I'm waiting for the screen cap turned gif of him pointing at the ref and saying "fuck you" ever so clearly (even without sound)

15-0 vs Stanford

97cats wrote:15-0 vs Stanford

That's insane. Can't remember if Lute ever went on a streak like that in league play.

Had a 30+ streak against Wazzu before the Bennetts. No way Lute was going to do that against Monty.

Gutty win. Blow a double-digit lead, fall behind by double-digits, then dig in and win. That's Miller instilling toughness.

The game changed Once they started to pressure Stanford full court! We need to mix that in more going forward our guys def fed off of that!

Merkin wrote:

I mean, they deserved it.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Merkin wrote:

I mean, they deserved it.

It takes a real idiot to think, “I’m going to call the most ticky-tack bullshit on the best player in college basketball because.... I AM THE LAW.”

That T had been building for a couple weeks. Thanks, Tony, for finally obliging.

A huge issue is that Ayton has been officiated like Shaq used to be. The defense can have 2 or 3 guys hockey checking him before a foul is an option. He's big and strong enough that minimal contact plus a selling job draws an offensive foul whistle.

I get that it's hard to officiate him, but I feel for Ayton when he gets whacked in the face by an Oregon player while dunking, then gets a T for yelling after the dunk. He probably has more uncalled contact than any player in CBB.

Ayton gets hacked every single time, whenever he touches the ball.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:A huge issue is that Ayton has been officiated like Shaq used to be. The defense can have 2 or 3 guys hockey checking him before a foul is an option. He's big and strong enough that minimal contact plus a selling job draws an offensive foul whistle.

I get that it's hard to officiate him, but I feel for Ayton when he gets whacked in the face by an Oregon player while dunking, then gets a T for yelling after the dunk. He probably has more uncalled contact than any player in CBB.

Yet folks like us can easily see this happening. Every other time down the floor, DeAndre's rubbing an eye, checking his nose/mouth for blood, etc.
It's horseshit that dudes who have done this professionally for decades can't - or won't - see it. Miller's made this observation several times publicly in the last few weeks in far more diplomatic terms. It will be interesting to watch how Ayton is officiated the rest of the conference season. Dude is taking a beating and handling it amazingly well.

3goggles wrote:The game changed Once they started to pressure Stanford full court! We need to mix that in more going forward our guys def fed off of that!

And, it was nice to see them "really mean it" this time on the full court. Too often in the past, their "full court press" was half-assed and rarely worked. This time it was evident they have been practicing it and were motivated to really apply it. With how successful it was I'm surprised they ran it for only about 3-4 plays.

It really did make the difference; that plus the overall bearing down/being more aggressive, and Miller's T. I noticed a huge differential in the foul calling before/after the T. You would think the refs would react negatively to the the T and call even more crap on the Cats, but suddenly they started calling all those Stanford fouls even to a point of calling ticky-tack stuff. Quite remarkable.

Nah, no hard feelings. Before games Miller tells them all that, should he want a T, the code phrase is “fuck you.”

Spaceman Spiff wrote:A huge issue is that Ayton has been officiated like Shaq used to be. The defense can have 2 or 3 guys hockey checking him before a foul is an option. He's big and strong enough that minimal contact plus a selling job draws an offensive foul whistle.

I get that it's hard to officiate him, but I feel for Ayton when he gets whacked in the face by an Oregon player while dunking, then gets a T for yelling after the dunk. He probably has more uncalled contact than any player in CBB.

That play where Reid Travis came over as the help defender to trap Deandre on the baseline, but then fell over into DA as Travis was reaching for the ball... resulting in not an offensive foul, but in a traveling violation. I'm not suggesting Deandre didn't travel - it'd be near impossible not to move when a 250lb dude falls hands first into your hips.

Longhorned wrote:the code phrase is “fuck you.”

3goggles wrote:The game changed Once they started to pressure Stanford full court! We need to mix that in more going forward our guys def fed off of that!

with our issues with transition defense, many teams will destroy any press attempt, especially considering PJC is pretty easy to throw over.

I don't mind it used in need situations, but we would be giving up dunks if we pressed as a regular function. We still have enough issues with what to do with screen action (Trier is a junior and that lack of communication, and obvious switch as we did not want PJC taking a 6'7" guy on defense baseline drive, BUGGED me despite the win) and who should be where to do much scrambling after a full court break.

I wouldn’t press more than we have, but every time we’ve done it, it turned the game around.

Longhorned wrote:I wouldn’t press more than we have, but every time we’ve done it, it turned the game around.

The sample is small, and limited to a tiny window.

The whole "more than we have to" is the point...I wouldn't do it more than when it is desperation time, refs let shit go, we don't care about any result but getting the ball...

That is the "we have to". More than that is "more than we have to".

We cannot defend transition normally. It's like saying "the 15 yard in works at the end game when we are down 21 all the time...it should work in a tight game, too". No, different circumstances, different needs for one team vs the other. It works when it works, but that is because we put certain personnel on the floor to do just that with no concern about halfcourt defense, and we are guarding a team that has a lead and is looking to run clock, not attack. In the Outside of thenormal run of play, the team with the ball is going to have different personnel on the floor (looking to get fouled, best FT shooters regardless of position), and be looking to get across half court and get some hand off action/keep the ball up top away from the corners, to run clock until under :12 or so. Trapping a team that isn't regularly staffed, with players meant to attack, against a team that's #1 goal isn't attacking the rim in the possession, and knowing refs let more go in that late game ('05 Illinois not convincing enough), is much different than trapping in a 17-15 game with 12:26 left in the 1st half.

So, given our positional issues and failures in transition, I would call any more than when we are currently doing it "more than we should".

EDITED TO SAY: This should say "Outside the normal run of play", not "In"

deleted

Sean Miller shrugs off Tad Boyle’s remarks about FBI probe

Enfield did not take kindly to Boyle’s comments (USC was also one of the schools implicated in the FBI’s probe of the scandal).

“We are disappointed in Tad Boyle’s comments, and what they imply,” the Trojans head coach said in a statement.

So how will Miller respond to Boyle’s comments?

We will see Thursday when Arizona hosts Colorado, but Miller shrugged off the vitriol Monday during his weekly press conference.

“My focus is just on coaching our team,” said Miller, who was not implicated in the FBI probe. “... We have to be a better team this time around, more ready for the game than we were the last time. And that’s my focus.”

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketbal ... iting-2018" target="_blank

HiCat wrote:Sean Miller shrugs off Tad Boyle’s remarks about FBI probe

Enfield did not take kindly to Boyle’s comments (USC was also one of the schools implicated in the FBI’s probe of the scandal).

“We are disappointed in Tad Boyle’s comments, and what they imply,” the Trojans head coach said in a statement.

So how will Miller respond to Boyle’s comments?

We will see Thursday when Arizona hosts Colorado, but Miller shrugged off the vitriol Monday during his weekly press conference.

“My focus is just on coaching our team,” said Miller, who was not implicated in the FBI probe. “... We have to be a better team this time around, more ready for the game than we were the last time. And that’s my focus.”

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketbal ... iting-2018" target="_blank

Laying a beatdown is the best response.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

HiCat wrote:Sean Miller shrugs off Tad Boyle’s remarks about FBI probe

Enfield did not take kindly to Boyle’s comments (USC was also one of the schools implicated in the FBI’s probe of the scandal).

“We are disappointed in Tad Boyle’s comments, and what they imply,” the Trojans head coach said in a statement.

So how will Miller respond to Boyle’s comments?

We will see Thursday when Arizona hosts Colorado, but Miller shrugged off the vitriol Monday during his weekly press conference.

“My focus is just on coaching our team,” said Miller, who was not implicated in the FBI probe. “... We have to be a better team this time around, more ready for the game than we were the last time. And that’s my focus.”

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketbal ... iting-2018" target="_blank

Laying a beatdown is the best response.

Miller is smart. He doesn't need to say a word. Enfield already fired a salvo. Miller can just go out there and watch his team pound the Buffs by 20 and take the high road. In fact, saying nothing says a lot anyway.

zonagrad wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

HiCat wrote:Sean Miller shrugs off Tad Boyle’s remarks about FBI probe

Enfield did not take kindly to Boyle’s comments (USC was also one of the schools implicated in the FBI’s probe of the scandal).

“We are disappointed in Tad Boyle’s comments, and what they imply,” the Trojans head coach said in a statement.

So how will Miller respond to Boyle’s comments?

We will see Thursday when Arizona hosts Colorado, but Miller shrugged off the vitriol Monday during his weekly press conference.

“My focus is just on coaching our team,” said Miller, who was not implicated in the FBI probe. “... We have to be a better team this time around, more ready for the game than we were the last time. And that’s my focus.”

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketbal ... iting-2018" target="_blank

Laying a beatdown is the best response.

Miller is smart. He doesn't need to say a word. Enfield already fired a salvo. Miller can just go out there and watch his team pound the Buffs by 20 and take the high road. In fact, saying nothing says a lot anyway.

I really hope Miller saves a time out or two for the end like USC did vs CU and Miller did vs UCLA

Miller should tell Tad to go get his shinebox.

Chicat wrote:Miller should tell Tad to go get his shinebox.

That ends with Boyle stomping out Miller?

NYCat wrote:

Chicat wrote:Miller should tell Tad to go get his shinebox.

That ends with Boyle stomping out Miller?

Boyle's version of that is passive aggressive comments at the post game press conference.

I legitimately think Arizona has occupied a large space in his head since the second the Sabatino Chen shot was waved off.

NYCat wrote:

Chicat wrote:Miller should tell Tad to go get his shinebox.

That ends with Boyle stomping out Miller?

My bad, you’re right. I misremembered Pesci saying that.

I think he will let the play do the talking. I doubt he wants this topic in the news any more than it is.we shall see

Miller

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/3742 ... the-buzzer" target="_blank

Only for the second time am I really HUGELY disappointed and losing faith in CSM. Last year’s Xavier loss, and now this debacle, letting an average UCLA team punk us at home in McKale. For all of his coaching / recruiting ability, his inability to recruit a good PG the last 2 years (or let PJC hold us hostage) is ALL on him.

So disappointed with this year so far. What a waste of talent.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but even in the midst of a (so far) disappointing year with a lot of rocky patches, I don't question whether Miller is our guy.

As a comparison point, Duke is just as loaded as we are. They've gone 19-5, and are third in the ACC at 7-4. No one wonders if Coach K is the guy there.

This has not been the most pleasant of years, but I think we lose perspective on how it is at other programs yearly. Struggling years happen. Years with early tourney exits happen. Calipari and Roy Williams have been in the NIT within the last 10 years.

I think we back ourselves into an issue by having a revolving cast of programs to compare ourselves to. Last year it was Oregon. This year it's Purdue. We compare ourselves to a revolving cast of the best and miss the down years of the same programs.

It's why I hate on people who ding Miller for not meeting "the goal of Final Fours." If it isn't for Miller, that isn't the goal. With a lesser coach, we'd be happy with Sweet 16's. Because we have such a good coach, those successes feel like failures.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Maybe I'm in the minority, but even in the midst of a (so far) disappointing year with a lot of rocky patches, I don't question whether Miller is our guy.

As a comparison point, Duke is just as loaded as we are. They've gone 19-5, and are third in the ACC at 7-4. No one wonders if Coach K is the guy there.

This has not been the most pleasant of years, but I think we lose perspective on how it is at other programs yearly. Struggling years happen. Years with early tourney exits happen. Calipari and Roy Williams have been in the NIT within the last 10 years.

I think we back ourselves into an issue by having a revolving cast of programs to compare ourselves to. Last year it was Oregon. This year it's Purdue. We compare ourselves to a revolving cast of the best and miss the down years of the same programs.rm

It's why I hate on people who ding Miller for not meeting "the goal of Final Fours." If it isn't for Miller, that isn't the goal. With a lesser coach, we'd be happy with Sweet 16's. Because we have such a good coach, those successes feel like failures.

^This. Dead-solid-perfect.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Maybe I'm in the minority, but even in the midst of a (so far) disappointing year with a lot of rocky patches, I don't question whether Miller is our guy.

As a comparison point, Duke is just as loaded as we are. They've gone 19-5, and are third in the ACC at 7-4. No one wonders if Coach K is the guy there.

This has not been the most pleasant of years, but I think we lose perspective on how it is at other programs yearly. Struggling years happen. Years with early tourney exits happen. Calipari and Roy Williams have been in the NIT within the last 10 years.

I think we back ourselves into an issue by having a revolving cast of programs to compare ourselves to. Last year it was Oregon. This year it's Purdue. We compare ourselves to a revolving cast of the best and miss the down years of the same programs.

It's why I hate on people who ding Miller for not meeting "the goal of Final Fours." If it isn't for Miller, that isn't the goal. With a lesser coach, we'd be happy with Sweet 16's. Because we have such a good coach, those successes feel like failures.

I'm on board with all of this and have been saying the same thing. I have total faith in Miller. TOTAL. FAITH. He isn't perfect. He's not infallible. Not above criticism. But he has kept us consistently atop the Pac 12. He missed horribly on getting a point guard to replace TJ McConnell. Ironically, Lute had the same problem. Matt Othick was decent and had moments of greatness. But in big games against really athletic teams, he disappeared. He was consistently bad in the NCAA tourney.

My support for Miller is down zero points this season.

The one thing you cannot ignore about Miller is he has NEVER believed the hype about his teams, he calls them bad when they are and still attempts to coach them when they do not listen...

We all have listened to the hype because we are fans and WANT to believe it...

Washington had the #1 pick in the draft last year and couldn't win half of their conference games in spite of him scoring 30...

We have a #1 pick and a handful of ego-centric talent around him and Miller has managed to herd that to the top of the Pac and keep us in the top 25 for a good part of the year...we are not sponsoring an after season tourney here and paying teams to beat us, unlike other teams in the Pac have done...

Patriots didn't win the Superb Owl, and neither did Dallas, it happens, other teams win.

The advantage we have is a coach who will tell us what to expect and at this point he is warning us that tems with high Adj-O can beat us because our defense is atrocious...last night proved him right...

1. An honest coach
2. A good coach
3. Things he cannot control

Pick three.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Maybe I'm in the minority, but even in the midst of a (so far) disappointing year with a lot of rocky patches, I don't question whether Miller is our guy.

As a comparison point, Duke is just as loaded as we are. They've gone 19-5, and are third in the ACC at 7-4. No one wonders if Coach K is the guy there.

This has not been the most pleasant of years, but I think we lose perspective on how it is at other programs yearly. Struggling years happen. Years with early tourney exits happen. Calipari and Roy Williams have been in the NIT within the last 10 years.

I think we back ourselves into an issue by having a revolving cast of programs to compare ourselves to. Last year it was Oregon. This year it's Purdue. We compare ourselves to a revolving cast of the best and miss the down years of the same programs.

It's why I hate on people who ding Miller for not meeting "the goal of Final Fours." If it isn't for Miller, that isn't the goal. With a lesser coach, we'd be happy with Sweet 16's. Because we have such a good coach, those successes feel like failures.

I guess the primary question I have in regards to Sean Miller is at this point do we win games because Sean Miller is able to recruit better talent to Arizona than most other schools or do we win because of his coaching? Is it a mix of the two with most of it having to do with superior talent or does most of it have to do with his superior coaching?

Ultimately Sean Miller has proven that Arizona isn't a one coach program. You can recruit immense talent and win big at Arizona no matter who the coach is even if that coach doesn't have a reputation for great recruiting at their previous stop (Miller at Xavier). Could Arizona be equally or more successful with another coach like Chris Beard (just throwing a name out) or do we honestly think Sean Miller is the only current obtainable coach that could have the success that he's having at Arizona?

Just some things to ponder. Does Sean Miller make Arizona as good as it is or does Arizona's brand make Arizona as good as it is at this point?

ChooChooCat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Maybe I'm in the minority, but even in the midst of a (so far) disappointing year with a lot of rocky patches, I don't question whether Miller is our guy.

As a comparison point, Duke is just as loaded as we are. They've gone 19-5, and are third in the ACC at 7-4. No one wonders if Coach K is the guy there.

This has not been the most pleasant of years, but I think we lose perspective on how it is at other programs yearly. Struggling years happen. Years with early tourney exits happen. Calipari and Roy Williams have been in the NIT within the last 10 years.

I think we back ourselves into an issue by having a revolving cast of programs to compare ourselves to. Last year it was Oregon. This year it's Purdue. We compare ourselves to a revolving cast of the best and miss the down years of the same programs.

It's why I hate on people who ding Miller for not meeting "the goal of Final Fours." If it isn't for Miller, that isn't the goal. With a lesser coach, we'd be happy with Sweet 16's. Because we have such a good coach, those successes feel like failures.

I guess the primary question I have in regards to Sean Miller is at this point do we win games because Sean Miller is able to recruit better talent to Arizona than most other schools or do we win because of his coaching? Is it a mix of the two with most of it having to do with superior talent or does most of it have to do with his superior coaching?

Ultimately Sean Miller has proven that Arizona isn't a one coach program. You can recruit immense talent and win big at Arizona no matter who the coach is even if that coach doesn't have a reputation for great recruiting at their previous stop (Miller at Xavier). Could Arizona be equally or more successful with another coach like Chris Beard (just throwing a name out) or do we honestly think Sean Miller is the only current obtainable coach that could have the success that he's having at Arizona?

Just some things to ponder. Does Sean Miller make Arizona as good as it is or does Arizona's brand make Arizona as good as it is at this point?

Is he even a good defensive coach? He's had better offensive teams more so than defensive save for two years. And oh yeah in those two years he had 2-3 NBA talents paired with other good defenders. It's it's really the players what's the point of running a packline?

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Maybe I'm in the minority, but even in the midst of a (so far) disappointing year with a lot of rocky patches, I don't question whether Miller is our guy.

As a comparison point, Duke is just as loaded as we are. They've gone 19-5, and are third in the ACC at 7-4. No one wonders if Coach K is the guy there.

This has not been the most pleasant of years, but I think we lose perspective on how it is at other programs yearly. Struggling years happen. Years with early tourney exits happen. Calipari and Roy Williams have been in the NIT within the last 10 years.

I think we back ourselves into an issue by having a revolving cast of programs to compare ourselves to. Last year it was Oregon. This year it's Purdue. We compare ourselves to a revolving cast of the best and miss the down years of the same programs.

It's why I hate on people who ding Miller for not meeting "the goal of Final Fours." If it isn't for Miller, that isn't the goal. With a lesser coach, we'd be happy with Sweet 16's. Because we have such a good coach, those successes feel like failures.

Coach K has been successful and has won 5 titles and 12 final fours. 3 times national coach of the year. It is silly to compare Coach K to Miller.

I thought 2012 was a pretty down year by the way. Not sure why you always say Miller has no down years. 2012, I would say 2013 and 2016 were all down. 2017 S16 game was by far a down time.

Miller is a hell of a recruiter. And that is vitally important in college basketball. Maybe the most important thing a college coach must do. But he isnt a perfect coach and I think after seeing this team lose 5 times all to teams that Arizona is far more superior to a talent level, that is is fair to question what is going on with him.

Maybe what we need is some hokeypoke Rich Rod-Esque coach for our basketball team, right?

zonagrad wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote: Maybe I'm in the minority, but even in the midst of a (so far) disappointing year with a lot of rocky patches, I don't question whether Miller is our guy.

It's why I hate on people who ding Miller for not meeting "the goal of Final Fours." If it isn't for Miller, that isn't the goal. With a lesser coach, we'd be happy with Sweet 16's. Because we have such a good coach, those successes feel like failures.

I'm on board with all of this and have been saying the same thing. I have total faith in Miller. TOTAL. FAITH. He isn't perfect. He's not infallible. Not above criticism. But he has kept us consistently atop the Pac 12. He missed horribly on getting a point guard to replace TJ McConnell. Ironically, Lute had the same problem. Matt Othick was decent and had moments of greatness. But in big games against really athletic teams, he disappeared. He was consistently bad in the NCAA tourney.

Shocker, the miller cult members faith is unshaken. I give you guys 2 more years of this and declining recruiting under an FBI cloud then we'll see who has the most faith.

- a "good coach" would actually meet or outperform the expectations occasionally. Miller hasn't beaten a 1/2/3 seed since that one time in 2010.
- its doesn't FEEL like a failure because we have "such a good coach" it IS a failure because we have such good talent on the roster and the offense always stinks and is easily sunk by a zone
- what is hype about Ayton, he's the real deal, they hype is justified, yet Miller still sets records for under-performing (#2 to unranked in 3 days)
- making the final four is always the goal, no matter who the coach is. Oregon, Wichita St. Butler, VCU, Wisconsin (2x), Syracuse, and S.Car have all done it with far less talent than Miller has had.
- being atop the Pac 12 is nothing to crow about usually, this year is no exception.

Please don’t feed the trolls.

ChooChooCat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Maybe I'm in the minority, but even in the midst of a (so far) disappointing year with a lot of rocky patches, I don't question whether Miller is our guy.

As a comparison point, Duke is just as loaded as we are. They've gone 19-5, and are third in the ACC at 7-4. No one wonders if Coach K is the guy there.

This has not been the most pleasant of years, but I think we lose perspective on how it is at other programs yearly. Struggling years happen. Years with early tourney exits happen. Calipari and Roy Williams have been in the NIT within the last 10 years.

I think we back ourselves into an issue by having a revolving cast of programs to compare ourselves to. Last year it was Oregon. This year it's Purdue. We compare ourselves to a revolving cast of the best and miss the down years of the same programs.

It's why I hate on people who ding Miller for not meeting "the goal of Final Fours." If it isn't for Miller, that isn't the goal. With a lesser coach, we'd be happy with Sweet 16's. Because we have such a good coach, those successes feel like failures.

I guess the primary question I have in regards to Sean Miller is at this point do we win games because Sean Miller is able to recruit better talent to Arizona than most other schools or do we win because of his coaching? Is it a mix of the two with most of it having to do with superior talent or does most of it have to do with his superior coaching?

Ultimately Sean Miller has proven that Arizona isn't a one coach program. You can recruit immense talent and win big at Arizona no matter who the coach is even if that coach doesn't have a reputation for great recruiting at their previous stop (Miller at Xavier). Could Arizona be equally or more successful with another coach like Chris Beard (just throwing a name out) or do we honestly think Sean Miller is the only current obtainable coach that could have the success that he's having at Arizona?

Just some things to ponder. Does Sean Miller make Arizona as good as it is or does Arizona's brand make Arizona as good as it is at this point?

I would want to add to your list of questions, do we want to find out if Arizona's brand is as good as you cite?

It backs into a logical conundrum with Miller. He won at Xavier, and you say he wasn't noted as a dominant recruiter. So, he was probably a good coach at Xavier. Now, he's recruited talent and the question is whether he's a recruiter who isn't that great at coaching.

They can't both be true. I would add that Miller has recruited better than Lute when Arizona's brand was at its peak.

RiseAndFire wrote:

zonagrad wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote: Maybe I'm in the minority, but even in the midst of a (so far) disappointing year with a lot of rocky patches, I don't question whether Miller is our guy.

It's why I hate on people who ding Miller for not meeting "the goal of Final Fours." If it isn't for Miller, that isn't the goal. With a lesser coach, we'd be happy with Sweet 16's. Because we have such a good coach, those successes feel like failures.

I'm on board with all of this and have been saying the same thing. I have total faith in Miller. TOTAL. FAITH. He isn't perfect. He's not infallible. Not above criticism. But he has kept us consistently atop the Pac 12. He missed horribly on getting a point guard to replace TJ McConnell. Ironically, Lute had the same problem. Matt Othick was decent and had moments of greatness. But in big games against really athletic teams, he disappeared. He was consistently bad in the NCAA tourney.

Shocker, the miller cult members faith is unshaken. I give you guys 2 more years of this and declining recruiting under an FBI cloud then we'll see who has the most faith.

- a "good coach" would actually meet or outperform the expectations occasionally. Miller hasn't beaten a 1/2/3 seed since that one time in 2010.
- its doesn't FEEL like a failure because we have "such a good coach" it IS a failure because we have such good talent on the roster and the offense always stinks and is easily sunk by a zone
- what is hype about Ayton, he's the real deal, they hype is justified, yet Miller still sets records for under-performing (#2 to unranked in 3 days)
- making the final four is always the goal, no matter who the coach is. Oregon, Wichita St. Butler, VCU, Wisconsin (2x), Syracuse, and S.Car have all done it with far less talent than Miller has had.
- being atop the Pac 12 is nothing to crow about usually, this year is no exception.

For the bolded, I dont believe this to be true. I cannot disagree with your other points except the PAC12 point. Always good to be winning your conference no matter what.

Here is how I see your bolded points by year

2010-Met expectations. Missed the tournament but was expected except for a two weeks stretch when things really clicked for a bit and UA was winning the conference
2011-Far exceeded expectations
2012-Far missed expectations
2013-Was about expectations, maybe slight miss
2014-Exceeded Expectations
2015-Met expectations
2016-Missed expectations
2017-Was about expectations, maybe miss due to the Xavier game

PHXCATS wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Maybe I'm in the minority, but even in the midst of a (so far) disappointing year with a lot of rocky patches, I don't question whether Miller is our guy.

As a comparison point, Duke is just as loaded as we are. They've gone 19-5, and are third in the ACC at 7-4. No one wonders if Coach K is the guy there.

This has not been the most pleasant of years, but I think we lose perspective on how it is at other programs yearly. Struggling years happen. Years with early tourney exits happen. Calipari and Roy Williams have been in the NIT within the last 10 years.

I think we back ourselves into an issue by having a revolving cast of programs to compare ourselves to. Last year it was Oregon. This year it's Purdue. We compare ourselves to a revolving cast of the best and miss the down years of the same programs.

It's why I hate on people who ding Miller for not meeting "the goal of Final Fours." If it isn't for Miller, that isn't the goal. With a lesser coach, we'd be happy with Sweet 16's. Because we have such a good coach, those successes feel like failures.

Coach K has been successful and has won 5 titles and 12 final fours. 3 times national coach of the year. It is silly to compare Coach K to Miller.

I thought 2012 was a pretty down year by the way. Not sure why you always say Miller has no down years. 2012, I would say 2013 and 2016 were all down. 2017 S16 game was by far a down time.

Miller is a hell of a recruiter. And that is vitally important in college basketball. Maybe the most important thing a college coach must do. But he isnt a perfect coach and I think after seeing this team lose 5 times all to teams that Arizona is far more superior to a talent level, that is is fair to question what is going on with him.

I have never advanced that Miller does not have down years. I argue that what we consider down years are not down years for most programs. You're crapping on Miller for only making a Sweet 16 last year. Only 3 other Pac teams have made Sweet 16's even once in the last 5 years. We've been there 4 of 5. I think we actually match or exceed the number of Sweet 16's for the rest of our whole conference during that period.

And yes, it's fair to compare Miller to K. You list K's accolades. He has also had bad seasons and early tourney exits across that career that you ignore. That's the point. Your ilk cites to the success of other programs and ignores their down times.