Bear Down Wildcats

Alieberman wrote:The problem with Nico is not that he's a bad player (far from it) It's that people know he doesn't really care about being at UArizona and probably has a countdown clock in his dorm room counting down the seconds until the NBA draft.

Are you just reading this in his countenance and body language, or is it actually out there that he’s not at all interested in AZ beyond self-promotion?

The two most up to date mock drafts I have seen have Nico, Josh and Zeke have their projected picks listed as 17/21, 20/24 and 23/28 respectively. That would put each of them in the somewhere between $5-8M range over three years on a team that will most likely be competing for championships, not coddling youngsters. While that is a lot of money I would think that each of these guys has much greater potential then the range they are projected at, but maybe I am naive. I have definitely seen the flashes and the flaws that each of these guys possess. I also do not think that money is that big of a driving force for these three guys as they come from successful families.

One thing I found very interesting is that 12 of the 15 highest paid players in the NBA spent multiple years in college. I do not think it is a coincidence and believe that that extra college work not only improves a players stock but helps them hit the ground running when they get to the NBA. I have seen so many guys flame out because they left school early, and while there is no way to tell if they would have succeeded with some extra time in college, I feel more likely than not they would have been more prepared for the jump. First impressions mean a lot in the NBA as do confidence. If you come in not prepared your likely not going to last very long.

Also, as a caveat, I admit I am biased and it is entirely possible my own selfish wants are skewing how I am viewing the entire situation.

Beachcat97 wrote:

Alieberman wrote:The problem with Nico is not that he's a bad player (far from it) It's that people know he doesn't really care about being at UArizona and probably has a countdown clock in his dorm room counting down the seconds until the NBA draft.

Are you just reading this in his countenance and body language, or is it actually out there that he’s not at all interested in AZ beyond self-promotion?

I have zero actual knowledge.

As usual, I am talking out of my ass. It just doesn't seem to bother him when we win or lose. You notice anything different?

Note Channing Frye's recent tweet about the team not caring at about Arizona, along with not having fun playing.

Heck, Jeter was seen at one of the malls wearing a Duke hoodie.

I caught Solo Hill sneaking up to the Tucson mall to gunge fries at Red Robin back when he was trying to drop some pounds.

Alieberman wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:

Alieberman wrote:The problem with Nico is not that he's a bad player (far from it) It's that people know he doesn't really care about being at UArizona and probably has a countdown clock in his dorm room counting down the seconds until the NBA draft.

Are you just reading this in his countenance and body language, or is it actually out there that he’s not at all interested in AZ beyond self-promotion?

I have zero actual knowledge.

As usual, I am talking out of my ass. It just doesn't seem to bother him when we win or lose. You notice anything different?

I don't. I guess I'm just at a loss to explain where this program is at currently. These are young guys, and they're competitive. They want to win. But Miller has to create a competitive, supportive environment where the players can fail without fear. I don't see a lot of that. I see guys getting reamed when they screw up. Guys yanked out of games the second they take the wrong shot or turn the ball over. That's not how to teach basketball, imo. I'm not sure if this is how Miller's always been, or if he's gotten worse. All I know is that his players in years 1-5 seemed much more excited about playing for him than his players over the past 4-5 seasons. Remember his run-ins with Tarc?

gronk4heisman wrote:The two most up to date mock drafts I have seen have Nico, Josh and Zeke have their projected picks listed as 17/21, 20/24 and 23/28 respectively. That would put each of them in the somewhere between $5-8M range over three years on a team that will most likely be competing for championships, not coddling youngsters. While that is a lot of money I would think that each of these guys has much greater potential then the range they are projected at, but maybe I am naive. I have definitely seen the flashes and the flaws that each of these guys possess. I also do not think that money is that big of a driving force for these three guys as they come from successful families.

One thing I found very interesting is that 12 of the 15 highest paid players in the NBA spent multiple years in college. I do not think it is a coincidence and believe that that extra college work not only improves a players stock but helps them hit the ground running when they get to the NBA. I have seen so many guys flame out because they left school early, and while there is no way to tell if they would have succeeded with some extra time in college, I feel more likely than not they would have been more prepared for the jump. First impressions mean a lot in the NBA as do confidence. If you come in not prepared your likely not going to last very long.

Also, as a caveat, I admit I am biased and it is entirely possible my own selfish wants are skewing how I am viewing the entire situation.

Would love to see some stats on the players who aren't sure-fire lottery picks who leave early and how their careers end up compared to guys who stay at least 2 years in college. Kobi Simmons is a perfect example -- and players like him. He's a G-league player who's had a few cups of coffee in the NBA. He'd be a senior this year at Arizona. Same with Alkins. Then you look at Ja Morant and his time at Murray State and wonder how the hell that guy ended up there.

There are times when it's clear a guy is ready to go -- his game is developed and mature and you know he's gonna make an impact at the next level. And nothing has shown me that any of Arizona's three freshmen are close to that level. Nothing.

I agree ZG, all 3 guys need to come back and tighten up their games. I don't see any of them getting major minutes next year in the NBA

Alieberman wrote:The problem with Nico is not that he's a bad player (far from it) It's that people know he doesn't really care about being at UArizona....

I thought we promised each other not to do that.

Chicat wrote:

Alieberman wrote:The problem with Nico is not that he's a bad player (far from it) It's that people know he doesn't really care about being at UArizona....

I thought we promised each other not to do that.

I was wondering the same thing. Can we put that on the list of banned words?

I was trying to be funny.... it's so ridiculous to see it in print.

I will never do it again!

Alieberman wrote:I was trying to be funny.... it's so ridiculous to see it in print.

I will never do it again!

You’re now on Double Secret Probation so you better mind yourself homie.

Chicat wrote:

Alieberman wrote:The problem with Nico is not that he's a bad player (far from it) It's that people know he doesn't really care about being at UArizona....

I thought we promised each other not to do that.

UAndiagree.

UAEebs86 wrote:

Wow - didn't see that coming...

You mean, he's not transferring to Gonzaga?

10-8 in a mediocre conference = ready for prime time

Luckily he speaks Italian.

There is only one thing that tells him he is ready.....the NBA. Would be really interested to see the years in college vs longevity in the NBA analysis. This is following the Lute saying it is not making the NBA it is staying in the NBA that is the goal. Being productive and grabbing that second contract.

UAEebs86 wrote:

Another forgettable player through the turnstile of Arizona pit stop basketball.

From point guard U to pit stop U in a generation.

We love ya, Nico. Good luck.

Just wished he'd have worked longer to make us refer to him as "former Wildcat star" Nico Mannion. You can remove the "star" part. That's his legacy.

And that's the last I ever hope to ever hear about him.

Unless of course he donates enough to build the Lute Olson Arena Sponsored by Nico Mannion.

But RJ he is not.

All three should have announced together instead of drawing this out...

...next up

...Green

MountainCat wrote:All three should have announced together instead of drawing this out...

...next up

...Green

I really don't understand the delay at all. They were all gone first day they set foot on campus. It's not like they were the 3 most beloved freshmen in UA history and wanted to wait for all the accolades for their fellow teammates, since there are none.

This is one of those seasons that will probably be never talked about again. Kind of like the season when Chase Jeter was the star.

Merkin wrote:This is one of those seasons that will probably be never talked about again.

Those seem to be becoming the norm.

SCCats wrote:

Merkin wrote:This is one of those seasons that will probably be never talked about again.

Those seem to be becoming the norm.

Recently that has been true. I liked Kadeem’s senior year team.

SCCats wrote:10-8 in a mediocre conference = ready for prime time

Well, the NBA draft has become like the MLB draft, more of a prospect draft. Nico is a prospect. He certainly is not NBA ready. But to these kids, even if they ride the bench for a year or wind up in the G League, it is one step closer to being a pro. They don't see any value playing college ball.

I guess I just didn't see this lottery-level talent during Nico's time in Tucson. He's very green. He has good athleticism, but his instincts didn't impress me. Yes, there were some good passes, but there were far more ill-advised shots. And a lot of turnovers. I get that he's young, but compared to other OAD point guards recently (Lonzo, Trae, Sexton, Fox, Simmons), Nico just looks much weaker, imo. Maybe this draft pool is just weak AF, and he's going to rise on team's wish lists. We'll see.

Jerryd Bayless was a better freshman PG at AZ.

Beachcat97 wrote:I guess I just didn't see this lottery-level talent during Nico's time in Tucson. He's very green. He has good athleticism, but his instincts didn't impress me. Yes, there were some good passes, but there were far more ill-advised shots. And a lot of turnovers. I get that he's young, but compared to other OAD point guards recently (Lonzo, Trae, Sexton, Fox, Simmons), Nico just looks much weaker, imo. Maybe this draft pool is just weak AF, and he's going to rise on team's wish lists. We'll see.

Jerryd Bayless was a better freshman PG at AZ.

Hard to disagree.

Beachcat97 wrote:I guess I just didn't see this lottery-level talent during Nico's time in Tucson. He's very green. He has good athleticism, but his instincts didn't impress me. Yes, there were some good passes, but there were far more ill-advised shots. And a lot of turnovers. I get that he's young, but compared to other OAD point guards recently (Lonzo, Trae, Sexton, Fox, Simmons), Nico just looks much weaker, imo. Maybe this draft pool is just weak AF, and he's going to rise on team's wish lists. We'll see.

Jerryd Bayless was a better freshman PG at AZ.

Mannion never lived up to expectations; he was over-utilized by an inflexible coach

Bayless also did not meet expectation; but he was under-utilized by an inflexible coach

1 - Bibby
2 - Arenas
3 - D. Stoudamire
4 - Kerr
5 - Terry

6 - Norman
7 - Reeves
8 - Money
9 - McConnell
10 - Bayless

11 - S. Stoudamire
12 - N. Johnson
13 - Gardner
14 - Trier
15 - Lyons

16 - Shakur
17 - Lofton
18 - H. Harris
19 - Fogg
20 - Mannion

21 - Brown
22 - Allen
23 - McMillian
24 - Geary
25 - Othick

26 - Wise
27 - Muehlebach
28 - Jones
29 - York
30 - Cartwright

I would push Russell brown a bit higher on that list of guards. Rappis and Joe Nehls might be better than PJC. Still another great list 97

97cats wrote:1 - Bibby
2 - Arenas
3 - D. Stoudamire
4 - Kerr
5 - Terry

6 - Norman
7 - Reeves
8 - Money
9 - McConnell
10 - Bayless

11 - S. Stoudamire
12 - N. Johnson
13 - Gardner
14 - Trier
15 - Lyons

16 - Shakur
17 - Lofton
18 - H. Harris
19 - Fogg
20 - Mannion

21 - Brown
22 - Allen
23 - McMillian
24 - Geary
25 - Othick

26 - Wise
27 - Muehlebach
28 - Jones
29 - York
30 - Cartwright

Surprised Cartwright made the list.

Great list for sure.

Othick did get a cup in the league but that was more due to Tark wanting him to play for him after Midnight Lute stole him that any NBA ability.

That moment when you get slotted behind Kyle Fogg.

97's list is terrific. But I'd put Damon ahead of Gilbert. Anyone remember Damon's senior year? He was ridiculous. One of the best senior year seasons in school history, imo.

So the last point I'll make about Nico, at the risk of beating this horse truly to death, is that we anticipated that he'd be much, much higher on this list of AZ point guards, even playing just one season. This was the highest rated freshman PG Miller had ever gotten, and he is barely among the top 20 at his position historically.

Not saying Nico was a college bust. But he was sort of a college bust.

Relative to preseason expectations, his performance and buy-in, and most importantly for me, my memories of game in an Arizona Jersey and my interest in his career going forward, nico was a bust.

Dominant
Excellent
Very Good
Good

Average

Poor
Very Poor
Horrible
Retire Now

We can think about how Nico was against his college competition.

Dominant? No.
Excellent? No.
Very Good? Yikes. I don’t think so. Not consistently.
Good against his college competition? Perhaps that’s the zone.

Perhaps everything is different in The League.

Or perhaps it’s still just basketball.

CalStateTempe wrote:Relative to preseason expectations, his performance and buy-in, and most importantly for me, my memories of game in an Arizona Jersey and my interest in his career going forward, nico was a bust.

Nico's freshman year numbers, in fairness, are not terrible: 14ppg, 5apg, 80% FTs. His FG percentages were not great. But these numbers belie his overall impact, imo. He went through some really, really bad shooting slumps over the season, failing to produce in big games. This really put a strain on our offense, as Miller sort of let Nico play through every slump. He shot 2-14 vs. UCLA with 3 TOs back in February. 3-14, 1-7 from 3 vs. USC in late February. 6 turnovers vs. Oregon in the same month. These were all losses. I'm not putting the losses on Nico, but this shows that he did not really improve over the course of the season. If anything, he stagnated or regressed.

I'll chalk it up to immaturity. But I also wonder if his projected ceiling is lower than many think.

Only thing Mannion was good at was pushing the ball and passing into the interior, things prior years PGs have not done since TJ. Maybe that's what the NBA game is, never watch it. People mention Baker's crazy lack of turnovers, but he was the Daniel Dillon of point guards, just pass it around the 3 point line.

Merkin wrote:Only thing Mannion was good at was pushing the ball and passing into the interior, things prior years PGs have not done since TJ. Maybe that's what the NBA game is, never watch it. People mention Baker's crazy lack of turnovers, but he was the Daniel Dillon of point guards, just pass it around the 3 point line.

Baker is a back-up PG at best. His best possible impact for us will be as a reliable 3-point shooter and a solid defender. If we're stuck with Baker at PG for long stretches next year, that's bad.

And yes, that's true about Nico's ability to get up the floor quickly and make a good pass. I think Nico's limitations were much more obvious in the halfcourt. Once he had to run an offense, make good decisions, and defer to others on offense, he ran into trouble.

97cats wrote: 20 - Mannion

Mannion's more talented than the majority of the guys on that list, but no one can argue his impact will be memorable, especially given no tourney magic was given chance to materialize.

eoe wrote:
Mannion's more talented than the majority of the guys on that list, but no one can argue his impact will be memorable, especially given no tourney magic was given chance to materialize.

first, the list is not a most talented list, to which i know you know that.

second, him being robbed of his chance to play in March like so many others keeps him where i believe he is and should be slotted assuming the season ended where and when it did, and in fact he did declare and become a pro ending his career and encapsulating his data footprint for now, college is done.

certainly the needle coulda been moved but we will never know. given what he showed me in his short time, as i look at the other players and their contributions at Arizona, he feels right at 20.

further, its an organizational exercise on my part, of who i feel, considering all the information and data available (including eyeballs) are the top guards at Arizona and how that stacks up against other Arizona guards before them.

for me, tenure is a positive and negative factor along with performance, program impact, on the floor impact, numbers, leadership, wins and loses, NCAA Tournament performance/results, and a bit of NBA professional consideration as well as academic citizenship consideration.

now, im curious, given that its not a 'Most Talented List', please share with me who you believe Nico Mannion is more talented than thats slotted ahead of him on that list

97cats wrote:1 - Bibby
2 - Arenas
3 - D. Stoudamire
4 - Kerr
5 - Terry

6 - Norman
7 - Reeves
8 - Money
9 - McConnell
10 - Bayless

11 - S. Stoudamire
12 - N. Johnson
13 - Gardner
14 - Trier
15 - Lyons

16 - Shakur
17 - Lofton
18 - H. Harris
19 - Fogg
20 - Mannion

21 - Brown
22 - Allen
23 - McMillian
24 - Geary
25 - Othick

26 - Wise
27 - Muehlebach
28 - Jones
29 - York
30 - Cartwright

No Miles Simon?

baycat93 wrote:
No Miles Simon?

i was waiting for this!!

i consider him a #3 - yes he did play some guard and there are others like him that are tweeners. i just left him and a few others (Buchler/Adams/Williams/Dickerson/etc.) out of the guard category all-together for this exercise.

97cats wrote:

baycat93 wrote:
No Miles Simon?

i was waiting for this!!

i consider him a #3 - yes he did play some guard and there are others like him that are tweeners. i just left him and a few others (Buchler/Adams/Williams/Dickerson/etc.) out of the guard category all-together for this exercise.

In the '97 tourney, Simon was really a guard, 97.

And Simon is an excellent example of how players mature and develop in college. By '98, he was leaps and bounds beyond where he was as a freshman. OAD players choose the big paycheck over NCAA glory, and it's hard to blame the ones that are guaranteed first round picks, as Nico will be. Still, it seems like there's a middle ground that's all but vanished: players who stay at least two years and improve their draft status over the course of their college careers. AZ used to have a lot of these guys: Jordan Hill, Channing Frye, Iggy, Solomon Hill, RHJ, Trier, RJ. Not too many of them these days.

And Nico keeps falling on the draft boards.

In this one both Nico/Josh have fallen out of the 1st round

https://t.co/Hd01vSBepK?amp=1" target="_blank

Have they taken agents yet?

azgreg wrote:Have they taken agents yet?

According to this article, yes.

https://bustingbrackets.com/2020/04/23/ ... 21-season/" target="_blank

I hope for both their sakes they don't drop out of the 1st round.

pc in NM wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:I guess I just didn't see this lottery-level talent during Nico's time in Tucson. He's very green. He has good athleticism, but his instincts didn't impress me. Yes, there were some good passes, but there were far more ill-advised shots. And a lot of turnovers. I get that he's young, but compared to other OAD point guards recently (Lonzo, Trae, Sexton, Fox, Simmons), Nico just looks much weaker, imo. Maybe this draft pool is just weak AF, and he's going to rise on team's wish lists. We'll see.

Jerryd Bayless was a better freshman PG at AZ.

Mannion never lived up to expectations; he was over-utilized by an inflexible coach

Bayless also did not meet expectation; but he was under-utilized by an inflexible coach

First, Bayless did not play for Miller.

Seriously though, I felt KO ran Bayless ragged. It looked like KO didn’t feel any of the other guys on team had the intestinal fortitude to win.
I know JB wasn’t happy with KO.
I would have loved to have Bayless any of the last few years.