Any coach who doesn't zone Arizona should be fired

RiseAndFire · Post by **RiseAndFire** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:41 pm

zone is no problem when you get 55% shooting from 3 like tonight, or get Markkanen to resume his 60% clip. it's those times you shoot 30% that RPI300 Oregon State hangs with you and you stub your toe

if the team can shoot 50% or better from distance we'll have jus enough offense to finally get over the hump in March .

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:01 pm

Your zone ranting and raving is not factually based. Arizona has "stubbed" its toe exactly one time in conference and 3 times all year.

Miller hopes teams zone Arizona at this point.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:05 pm

Theres a reason why teams havent been sticking to zones all or most of the past several games. We have looked better against them

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:07 pm

rgdeuce wrote:Theres a reason why teams havent been sticking to zones all or most of the past several games. We have looked better against them

PJC

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:43 am

PJC was around and part of our post-UCLA struggles. I won't deny that our offense is better against the zone when he is quarterbacking it, but he is far from the only reason we have done better very recently and he is not the zone savior because he has been on the floor plenty during times where we have looked like ass against a zone. Our improvement also coincided with Dusan's injury/fewer minutes/Chance's increased role. Trier has been coming into a groove and meshing better with the offense. Ball movement and off-ball movement has improved. These are other things you have to rule out and I don't think you can. There were plenty of points in very recent games where we reverted back to old habits and things fell flat again and those possessions had a lot on common and it wasn't PJC being on the bench at the time.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:03 pm

RiseAndFire wrote:zone is no problem when you get 55% shooting from 3 like tonight, or get Markkanen to resume his 60% clip. it's those times you shoot 30% that RPI300 Oregon State hangs with you and you stub your toe

if the team can shoot 50% or better from distance we'll have jus enough offense to finally get over the hump in March .

So your hypothesis is that making a high percentage of threes makes you look good against a zone and making a low percentage of threes makes you look bad against a zone?

For once, we agree. I would go further and say that making shots is a way to look good against any defense. Man, 2-3, box and one, the claw, the flying V, making the shots is always necessary.

azdoubledown · Post by **azdoubledown** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:43 pm

Olsondogg wrote:Your zone ranting and raving is not factually based. Arizona has "stubbed" its toe exactly one time in conference and 3 times all year.

Miller hopes teams zone Arizona at this point.

well mr actual factual bear, the SOS (35) is not something to brag about really, and we're also 0-3 against the rpi top 10 with one of those having us completely embarrassed on natl TV from start to finish

nobody is ranting and raving , more like pointing out the obvious: every single year we suck against zone probably due to our zonephobic coach

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:47 pm

Uh. Nope

dmjcat · Post by **dmjcat** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:52 pm

azdoubledown wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:Your zone ranting and raving is not factually based. Arizona has "stubbed" its toe exactly one time in conference and 3 times all year.

Miller hopes teams zone Arizona at this point.
well mr actual factual bear, the SOS (35) is not something to brag about really, and we're also 0-3 against the rpi top 10 with one of those having us completely embarrassed on natl TV from start to finish

nobody is ranting and raving , more like pointing out the obvious: every single year we suck against zone probably due to our zonephobic coach

Completely agree. Anyone who hasn't noticed that we have been having a wee bit of problems with the zone is a blithering idiot. During the first game with UCLA the only time they really stymied our offense was when they temporarily went zone on us. Here's hoping that Alford is just stupid enough to repeat his mistake and play man against us..........unfortunately he's probably not that stupid.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:55 pm

I'll ask again. When was the last time the zone was responsible for an Arizona loss?

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:04 pm

Olsondogg wrote:I'll ask again. When was the last time the zone was responsible for an Arizona loss?

There was the situational zone at the close of the Butler game. I'm not sure that counts, though, and I'd have to rewatch that final play to make sure that's what stymied our offense.

Otherwise, a zone is a nice white flag against Arizona. It may condemn you to losing, but It limits possessions by eating up clock if you don't have the personnel to defend the paint m2m, so you could lose by less than you would have otherwise. There's victory in there somewhere.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:05 pm

You know, it's astonishing how easy it is to coach zone offense on the internet.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:12 pm

Longhorned wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:I'll ask again. When was the last time the zone was responsible for an Arizona loss?
There was the situational zone at the close of the Butler game. I'm not sure that counts, though, and I'd have to rewatch that final play to make sure that's what stymied our offense.

Otherwise, a zone is a nice white flag against Arizona. It may condemn you to losing, but It limits possessions by eating up clock if you don't have the personnel to defend the paint m2m, so you could lose by less than you would have otherwise. There's victory in there somewhere.

So it was November 25, 2016. In a game without Trier...where Lauri played only 21 mins before fouling out...and where Az led by 5 with under 3 mins to go...

Is this why the zone is supposed to keep me up sleepless?

Also, zone defense is not what worries me about any team...especially uCla

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:51 am

Olsondogg wrote:I'll ask again. When was the last time the zone was responsible for an Arizona loss?

Uh what?

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... =400915658

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:27 am

Puerco wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:I'll ask again. When was the last time the zone was responsible for an Arizona loss?
Uh what?

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... =400915658

My thoughts exactly. Maybe some people have removed that game from their memory. Ucla had an amazing game offensively against us and we still won because they played a horrible man defense. Oregon also played great offensively but we got blown out because their zone made our offense look average at best.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:34 am

Oregon's zone allowed them to shoot 65% and rain 3 pointers from everywhere?

Incredible!!! So Rise&Fire has been right all this time?!?!?

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:30 am

Chicat wrote:Oregon's zone allowed them to shoot 65% and rain 3 pointers from everywhere?

Incredible!!! So Rise&Fire has been right all this time?!?!?

No Oregons zone D held us to 58 points total and 18 in the first half. I knew the first comment would be about Oregons offense being the only factor in that game which is why I added in the UCLA bit.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:44 am

- We shot 17 threes, which is actually right at our average for the season (16.72 per game).
- We turned the ball over 13 times which is only 1 more than our season average (11.6 per game).

So this vaunted zone didn't force us into more bad long range shots and didn't cause us to turn the ball over much more than usual, so how exactly was it the cause of our loss?

Oregon shot 25 threes and made 16 of them. That had a lot more to do with their win than what defense they ran. If we have so much trouble with the zone, why exactly are we 26-3 when we've seen some version of it in pretty much every game?

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:56 am

Chicat wrote:- We shot 17 threes, which is actually right at our average for the season (16.72 per game).
- We turned the ball over 13 times which is only 1 more than our season average (11.6 per game).

So this vaunted zone didn't force us into more bad long range shots and didn't cause us to turn the ball over much more than usual, so how exactly was it the cause of our loss?

Oregon shot 25 threes and made 16 of them. That had a lot more to do with their win than what defense they ran. If we have so much trouble with the zone, why exactly are we 26-3 when we've seen some version of it in pretty much every game?

You do realize there are also two point shots in a basketball game, right?

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:58 am

jsbowl16 wrote:
Chicat wrote:- We shot 17 threes, which is actually right at our average for the season (16.72 per game).
- We turned the ball over 13 times which is only 1 more than our season average (11.6 per game).

So this vaunted zone didn't force us into more bad long range shots and didn't cause us to turn the ball over much more than usual, so how exactly was it the cause of our loss?

Oregon shot 25 threes and made 16 of them. That had a lot more to do with their win than what defense they ran. If we have so much trouble with the zone, why exactly are we 26-3 when we've seen some version of it in pretty much every game?
You do realize there are also two point shots in a basketball game, right?

Sure, and they are statistically easier to hit than three point shots. So a lot of times teams will employ a zone to cut off passing lanes and force teams to take lower percentage shots from further away.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:00 am

I'm with Chicat, Odogg, and Sean Miller on this one. That barrage of 3's, which started early along with Arizona getting exactly the high percentage shots we wanted but completely failed to finish, all while in a hostile arena, let all the oxygen out of Arizona on both ends of the floor. Arizona commonly gets zoned and commonly overcomes it. I'm open to the idea of Arizona losing that game to Oregon on a usual shooting outing where Arizona is just too confused by the zone down the stretch, but since that didn't happen, and outside that final possession against Butler hasn't happened, I'm not pointing to Oregon as an example of the zone kryptonite.

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:08 am

Even if Oregon shoots their normal percentage from 3 in that game, they still beat us by more than five. Their zone defense gave us fits especially in the first half. The original topic was what Arizona loss to a zone D should be causing sleep loss and it was the loss to Oregon. The worst part is that Oregon is not known as having an amazing zone defense. Yes we are 26-3 and having a great year but other than the win at UCLA, we haven't beaten a team that we could possibly see in the sweet 16/elite 8 all year.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:12 am

We shot 42% against Oregon, and 30% from three. If you don't believe their defense played some part in that result, then I can't help you. They're ranked above us in adjusted defense for a reason.

And I doubt I'm the only one who thinks this way.

Arizona isn’t going to win games where it only takes eight free throws. Even when the game was still early and not totally out of hand, the Wildcats were settling for contested threes instead of attacking the zone. This team has to become more aggressive when faced with the zone. There’s no way that a team that plays a little bit of zone on a regular basis doesn’t play it exclusively against UA from here on out.

Same old song and dance in that category if we’re being honest. It’s even more confusing considering the fact that Arizona has some exceptional slashers on its roster. Why guys like Trier and Kadeem Allen and Kobi Simmons and Rawle Alkins aren’t going straight to the rim is mind-blowing.

http://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball ... man-pac-12

UAEebs86 · Post by **UAEebs86** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:14 am

Oregon would have killed us that game if they played man for the whole 40 minutes.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:16 am

Puerco wrote:We shot 42% against Oregon, and 30% from three. If you don't believe their defense played some part in that result, then I can't help you. They're ranked above us in adjusted defense for a reason.

And I doubt I'm the only one who thinks this way.

Arizona isn’t going to win games where it only takes eight free throws. Even when the game was still early and not totally out of hand, the Wildcats were settling for contested threes instead of attacking the zone. This team has to become more aggressive when faced with the zone. There’s no way that a team that plays a little bit of zone on a regular basis doesn’t play it exclusively against UA from here on out.

Same old song and dance in that category if we’re being honest. It’s even more confusing considering the fact that Arizona has some exceptional slashers on its roster. Why guys like Trier and Kadeem Allen and Kobi Simmons and Rawle Alkins aren’t going straight to the rim is mind-blowing.
http://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball ... man-pac-12

Their zone defense had absolutely nothing to do with them destroying us that game.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:17 am

I think we need to understand whether we're looking for 'zone kryptonite' or looking for an recent example of us losing to a team who zoned us.

If it's the former, then I'm out of the discussion, because anyone will be able to twist an argument to support their desired result. 'Oh, Oregon only beat us because of their offense. Their defense didn't have anything to do with it.' Rubbish.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:18 am

Just like I said. Rubbish.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:20 am

Sometimes shots don't fall. We got good looks early that didn't go in. Then home arena momentum took over and when we did start hitting shots Oregon answered with another three point dagger.

There's a reason we were out of timeouts with 11 minutes to go in the game and it wasn't because Sean wanted to talk about how to beat the zone...

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:21 am

Puerco and all those that think a zone beats Arizona are misguided. It may keep possessions lower, but it hasn't beat Arizona in months and Miller is correct in saying that the team is comfortable playing against it now.

It's utterly comical for someone to say that Oregons defense was why Arizona lost in Eugene. The game was out of hand early after a barrage of threes. Nobody who watched that game thought "if we just were able to penetrate that spectacular defense we will be fine" as another Oregon three ball is launched from the arc

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:22 am

We shoot 47% on the year and 40% from three. It's a pretty obvious fallacy to state that us shooting 43% and 30% 'had absolutely nothing to do' with the result.

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:23 am

Olsondogg wrote:Puerco and all those that think a zone beats Arizona are misguided. It may keep possessions lower, but it hasn't beat Arizona in months and Miller is correct in saying that the team is comfortable playing against it now.

It's utterly comical for someone to say that Oregons defense was why Arizona lost in Eugene. The game was out of hand early after a barrage of threes. Nobody who watched that game thought "if we just were able to penetrate that spectacular defense we will be fine" as another Oregon three ball is launched from the arc

How do you explain us only scoring 18 points in the first half of that game? Was their three point percentage making it difficult for us to score?

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:23 am

Keep looking at a box score or stats. But stay away from the game tape.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:25 am

Olsondogg wrote:Puerco and all those that think a zone beats Arizona are misguided. It may keep possessions lower, but it hasn't beat Arizona in months and Miller is correct in saying that the team is comfortable playing against it now.

It's utterly comical for someone to say that Oregons defense was why Arizona lost in Eugene. The game was out of hand early after a barrage of threes. Nobody who watched that game thought "if we just were able to penetrate that spectacular defense we will be fine" as another Oregon three ball is launched from the arc

I'm saying nothing of the sort. They play poor defense against us and shoot like that, they'd have beaten us in a close game. The reason we got demolished is because they shot the ball like they did AND they played excellent defense, zone or otherwise.

My point is that their defense had a significant impact on the final margin.

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:25 am

Olsondogg wrote:Keep looking at a box score or stats. But stay away from the game tape.

I have watched that game multiple times and their zone defense held us to 18 points in the first half.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:27 am

We match up pretty poorly with Oregon. Unfortunately the only good defensive matchup for Dillon Brooks is sitting on our bench having suffered his third knee injury in three years.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:29 am

jsbowl16 wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:Keep looking at a box score or stats. But stay away from the game tape.
I have watched that game multiple times and their zone defense held us to 18 points in the first half.

ok

All done here

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:32 am

Olsondogg wrote:
jsbowl16 wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:Keep looking at a box score or stats. But stay away from the game tape.
I have watched that game multiple times and their zone defense held us to 18 points in the first half.
ok

All done here

Glad we could answer your question. Let us know if you have any others.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:32 am

How about this...We lost because of the combination of them shooting otherworldly from 3 AND their zone flummoxing us?

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:34 am

We missed 7 shots from inside the lane and made 3 in the first half, so penetrating the zone didn't seem to be the issue.

We also scored 40 points in the second half, going 9 of 12 from inside the lane. I don't remember them switching to man in that period.

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:38 am

ASUHATER! wrote:How about this...We lost because of the combination of them shooting otherworldly from 3 AND their zone flummoxing us?

Agreed. They shot the ball extremely well from three which made the score much uglier than it would have been otherwise but to say that the zone they played had nothing to do with it being a loss is wrong in my opinion.

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:41 am

Chicat wrote:We missed 7 shots from inside the lane and made 3 in the first half, so penetrating the zone didn't seem to be the issue.

We also scored 40 points in the second half, going 9 of 12 from inside the lane. I don't remember them switching to man in that period.

Yeah but Oregon was up by 20 at the half and then went on a big run to start the second half so a lot of those points came later in the half when it was already over.

UAEebs86 · Post by **UAEebs86** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:42 am

jsbowl16 wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:Keep looking at a box score or stats. But stay away from the game tape.
I have watched that game multiple times and their zone defense held us to 18 points in the first half.

With their athletes, do you honestly think it would be any different if they played man-to-man?

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:45 am

UAEebs86 wrote:
jsbowl16 wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:Keep looking at a box score or stats. But stay away from the game tape.
I have watched that game multiple times and their zone defense held us to 18 points in the first half.

With their athletes, do you honestly think it would be any different if they played man-to-man?

Yes I do because our athletes would have been able to dissect the defense. UCLA has good athletes as well but we put up 96 on them last time with them playing man.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:50 am

jsbowl16 wrote:
ASUHATER! wrote:How about this...We lost because of the combination of them shooting otherworldly from 3 AND their zone flummoxing us?
Agreed. They shot the ball extremely well from three which made the score much uglier than it would have been otherwise but to say that the zone they played had nothing to do with it being a loss is wrong in my opinion.

There were a lot of factors in that loss. #1 in my opinion was the inability to contain Brooks and how his dribble drives opened things up on the outside for Dorsey. #2 was the momentum factor from so many threes being hit in a row early and how nuts the crowd got. Their defense is honestly 4th or 5th on my list.

jsbowl16 wrote:
Chicat wrote:We missed 7 shots from inside the lane and made 3 in the first half, so penetrating the zone didn't seem to be the issue.

We also scored 40 points in the second half, going 9 of 12 from inside the lane. I don't remember them switching to man in that period.
Yeah but Oregon was up by 20 at the half and then went on a big run to start the second half so a lot of those points came later in the half when it was already over.

But they were still playing zone though, right? Maybe their effort and enthusiasm waned, but all that proves is that a good zone with a lot of activity is better than a zone where guys are standing around with their arms at their sides. Of course that's true for any defense...

I firmly believe that if they had been strictly running man they still would have won. It was simply not our day, which is why it was so easy for me to move on from a loss that was such an anomaly.

UAEebs86 · Post by **UAEebs86** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:53 am

jsbowl16 wrote:
UAEebs86 wrote:
jsbowl16 wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:Keep looking at a box score or stats. But stay away from the game tape.
I have watched that game multiple times and their zone defense held us to 18 points in the first half.

With their athletes, do you honestly think it would be any different if they played man-to-man?
Yes I do because our athletes would have been able to dissect the defense. UCLA has good athletes as well but we put up 96 on them last time with them playing man.

UCLA is a horrible defensive team. Bad comparison. And Bryce is not a good athlete, nor is Welsh.

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:55 am

UAEebs86 wrote:
jsbowl16 wrote:
UAEebs86 wrote:
jsbowl16 wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:Keep looking at a box score or stats. But stay away from the game tape.
I have watched that game multiple times and their zone defense held us to 18 points in the first half.

With their athletes, do you honestly think it would be any different if they played man-to-man?
Yes I do because our athletes would have been able to dissect the defense. UCLA has good athletes as well but we put up 96 on them last time with them playing man.

UCLA is a horrible defensive team. Bad comparison. And Bryce is not a good athlete, nor is Welsh.

I thought you were basing it strictly on athleticism and not team defense since you mentioned their athletes.

Dana Altman must agree with me since they went out of their normal man to man to zone us.

PieceOfMeat · Post by **PieceOfMeat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:18 pm

CalStateTempe wrote:Bilas "Teams are going to show Arizona zone until they can show they can beat it."

Quote of the fucking season, hell Miller's Tenure.

I guess Bilas is just as dumb as some of us fans.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:19 pm

see my sig.

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:21 pm

PieceOfMeat wrote:
CalStateTempe wrote:Bilas "Teams are going to show Arizona zone until they can show they can beat it."

Quote of the fucking season, hell Miller's Tenure.

I guess Bilas is just as dumb as some of us fans.

Yeah and coaches that get paid millions of dollars per year continue to play zone defense against us. They should come on the board so some of the people here can tell them that zone defense has no effect on us.

UAEebs86 · Post by **UAEebs86** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:22 pm

Game was lost on the offensive glass on the other end of the floor.

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