Bear Down Wildcats

If anything I just hate every body that's not us 10000000000x more than I did before this mess.

Lol. That’s where I’m at choo.

How naive have I been my whole damn life, damn.

97cats wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Let the payers pay the players, just like it works in the rest of the university and the rest of the world. Some programs have more boosters with deeper pockets, others fewer and less. Some players are more valuable to shoe companies, others less so.

i dont disagree with this at all

Longhorned wrote:And as far as universities go, I'm actually talking about something worse than you guys are saying, and something that has to get fixed somehow.

i would like to learn more about this in terms of what the fix would do and/or some detail or color.

I'll write it up when I get a chance down on the GD board, and with a boring reading warning.

ChooChooCat wrote:If anything I just hate every body that's not us 10000000000x more than I did before this mess.

Fuck the world, don't ask me for shit
Everything you get you gotta work hard for it

97cats wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:
I think there was also a bit of "you shouldn't be here" type of jealousy going on as well. Then again that's what Sean Miller brought.

interesting perspective, thank you

Chicat wrote:
The silence from Sean’s coaching colleagues has been deafening.

Pasternack was behind so much of the inner workings at Arizona in those middle years - 'Crazy" Joe they called him, the man was relentless.

Crazy Joe...no clue why he is wasting his time coaching college basketball. Should be selling junk bonds....

I appreciate the sentiment and agree with most points, but man, your prose is annoying as hell.

terryarms wrote:I appreciate the sentiment and agree with most points, but man, your prose is annoying as hell.

They're not supposed to be prose, they're supposed to be amateurs. That's what this entire thing is about.

97cats wrote:it has been a whirlwind two years for Sean Miller and the Arizona Basketball Family.

bruises have formed, warts have grown, and deep wounds are unhealed.

some, hell most most Arizona faithful will say the program has been unjustly attacked, and wrongfully accused - singled out in a sea of corruption and cheats.

most Arizona faithful are quick blame a rogue crook of an assistant, who used his power, position, and influence to extort the University and its own student athletes.

most Arizona faithful will say the program is being singled out (unfairly) the finite example of a larger wide spread problem, a national epidemic in a sport thats been dirty for 40 plus years.

most Arizona faithful will point to the other schools and say they are no different - they play the same game, break the same rules... why only us?

but most Arizona faithful dont know, that behind the dirty veil that is college basketball, behind the smoke and mirrors, anyone who is anyone in and around the sport for the last SEVUN years has heard the whispers...

from Andy Enfield to Seth Davis, to Bill Self, to Gary Parrish, to John Beilein, to Myron Metcalf, to Ben Howland, to Dan Wetzel, to Bobby Hurley, to Pat Forde, to Tad Boyle, to Mike Krzyzewski, to Bruce Pascoe, to Larry Krystkowiak, to Jay Bilas, to Kevin O'Neil, to Dana O'Neil, to Steve Alford, to Clark Kellogg, to Johhny Dawkins, to Jon Wilner, to BIlly Donovan, to Bob Ley, to Rick Barnes, to Charles Barkley and on and on and on and on...

Arizona has been the one program who is always labeled (justified or not) as the dirtiest of them all - the one program with no limit. the one program with no shame.

at cocktail parties, fundraisers, alumni events, sporting contests, holiday get togethers...behind the curtain its been there. behind the curtain its been a thorn in a many side.

my first hand conversations with many of the aforementioned above have almost always resulted in some sort of comical banter about NIKE and Arizona paying players - it became so common place that it became an accepted joke, or better yet truth.

nobody could or can cheat the way Arizona can, nobody - thats the ugly perception inside the college basketball circle of trust, inside the veil where information is shared, no punches are held, and no apologies are given.

simple as simple, Sean Miller is the gold standard, impossible to compete against, impossible to beat - Coach Miller and his crew were playing with a different set of rules and resources.

when the chance came to pounce, when there was a chink in the armor, many inside this ugly world took the opportunity, the opportunity they said was long overdue, and attacked, believing what was communicated without proof, without so much as a second source.

its had to be.

this is Arizona under Sean Miller.

this is just the way it is.

it wasnt a circumstance of truth be told, but how much would actually be exposed.

there is an ugly underbelly here, fueled with jealousy and angst.

an underbelly that has been waiting to strike at Arizona, Sean Miller, and its program and finally bring to the forefront what everybody already knew.

the agenda is bigger than ESPN.

the agenda is bigger than !YAHOO.

the agenda is wrought in the "i told you so's" and their longstanding disgust with Arizona Basketball.

the label will never leave, cause the label was always there.

i will never forget speaking to Seth Davis in December 2017 at a holiday party in Manhattan Beach and he said to me, and i paraphrase:

"Jon, ive been telling you for years it cant go on forever. you cant cheat with this veracity at this level forever. i told you it would all come crashing down. i told you it would end ugly"

well, Seth - we will see

sorry not sorry

Most blue bloods think Arizona is a nuisance and does not belong at the table. They do not understand or like to see their apple cart that they have owned for years upset. They don't believe that Arizona should recruit at the level they have and Sean does not give a Fu**. Sean works tirelessly to put food on the Az. table and understands that recruiting is the life blood of the program. He out works everyone and if you look at 2020 and where he has been it is truly remarkable. If you doubt any of this look at next years class. Against all odds he and his staff put their heads down, slept in the office if necessary, and just kicked everyone's ass. You are an idiot if think he cheated signing that class with the scrutiny we have been under. We all know the ESPN info did not make sense. Now Dawkins says he never talked about Ayton. Rise up Wildcats.

love that post

97, how did Arizona cheat so much more egregiously than everyone else? Why is there so much more hate as you say for Arizona over other schools that obviously cheat as well. (Duke, UNC, Kentucky, hell Auburn made the Final 4 this year and NO ONE SAID A WORD about Pearl)

I've been trying to dissect this massive media onslaught for Miller, which to me clearly isn't normal but I can't really pinpoint it yet.

Can you provide some more meat on the bones of your comments?

that’s the thing, Arizona isn’t any more guilty or egregious in its behavior than anyone else in how they recruited or the process.

with anything, success breeds jealousy and Arizona’s success on the recruiting front made waves, not justified mind you.

I can only guess the massive uptick raised eyebrows and also triggered animosity to the tune of its rivals and peers, but the real personal reasons i can’t say with conviction that I know.

but as soon as there was a crack in the wall, the pile on came, different and more ferocious than any of the other complicit schools who were essentially caught up in the same practice.

And the pile on hasn’t relented, and the label and agenda is still there, for all the obvious reasons that I’m sure you can recognize.

So what, if any, impact will all of this have on the upcoming season, 97? Are we still good for at least one more year with Miller trying to prove himself? And after that decisions will have to be made. Please just give me this one last chance...

https://www.kgun9.com/sports/local-spor ... -continues" target="_blank

"Sean's our coach and we look forward to continuing to participate and cooperate in all the investigations that are going on," Robert Robbins said in a TV interview. "But Sean's our coach."

Time to ride on our haters, IMO.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:https://www.kgun9.com/sports/local-spor ... -continues

"Sean's our coach and we look forward to continuing to participate and cooperate in all the investigations that are going on," Robert Robbins said in a TV interview. "But Sean's our coach."

Time to ride on our haters, IMO.

So are we going to become the college basketball version of the Detroit Pistons' "bad boys" of college basketball? Everyone hates us so we use it to our advantage.

97cats wrote:that’s the thing, Arizona isn’t any more guilty or egregious in its behavior than anyone else in how they recruited or the process.

with anything, success breeds jealousy and Arizona’s success on the recruiting front made waves, not justified mind you.

I can only guess the massive uptick raised eyebrows and also triggered animosity to the tune of its rivals and peers, but the real personal reasons i can’t say with conviction that I know.

but as soon as there was a crack in the wall, the pile on came, different and more ferocious than any of the other complicit schools who were essentially caught up in the same practice.

And the pile on hasn’t relented, and the label and agenda is still there, for all the obvious reasons that I’m sure you can recognize.

There's one thing I wonder regarding this discussion. With so much attention on college basketball right now regarding paying players and with the FBI being involved for the last two years. Have these well hidden recruiting tactics continued?

Even though this model that has been used by Arizona and other Blue Bloods has worked and been un-penetrable by the people outside the system. I would have to think this threat of the FBI involvement and the huge microscope on our program would dramatically slow down or even completely shut down any behind the scenes dealings with recruits. Yet here we are, having our best class in school history.

Does Miller have such balls to continue to run the same system for the past year under everyone's nose? Or is the reason we have the #1 class in school history because Miller is that good of a recruiter, despite the shady system?

Either way, my one takeaway is that Miller is a fucking beast and I'm happy to have him as our coach.

Catintheheat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:https://www.kgun9.com/sports/local-spor ... -continues

"Sean's our coach and we look forward to continuing to participate and cooperate in all the investigations that are going on," Robert Robbins said in a TV interview. "But Sean's our coach."

Time to ride on our haters, IMO.

So are we going to become the college basketball version of the Detroit Pistons' "bad boys" of college basketball? Everyone hates us so we use it to our advantage.

I see it as comparable to the early 90's UNLV teams. Public perception can be that we're the outlaws. Let's beat Duke by 30, double bird our enemies and roll on.

Love it spiff.

Front of shirts: “A Payers Program”. With the block A
Back of shirts: double birds up. Could even have like a flock of 10 birds, 5 on the right and 5 on the left, with birds number 3 and 8 flying up to the sky. You know for the kids in the audience.

Jefe, make it happen!

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Catintheheat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:https://www.kgun9.com/sports/local-spor ... -continues

"Sean's our coach and we look forward to continuing to participate and cooperate in all the investigations that are going on," Robert Robbins said in a TV interview. "But Sean's our coach."

Time to ride on our haters, IMO.

So are we going to become the college basketball version of the Detroit Pistons' "bad boys" of college basketball? Everyone hates us so we use it to our advantage.

I see it as comparable to the early 90's UNLV teams. Public perception can be that we're the outlaws. Let's beat Duke by 30, double bird our enemies and roll on.

That makes sense. Perhaps we should change our nickname to the "Outlaws:. After all we are Arizona, and home to Tombstone and the wild wild west. If other fans are going to hate us anyway then we should run with it.

Embrace the suck!

Can somebody help me out with this?

The current take by the outraged media is that Dawkins' post-trial comments can be construed to suggest (though not prove) that Miller knew his players are being paid. And that therefore Miller should not be able to survive that suggestion.

Can somebody please explain to me why it would be bad or wrong or cheating for a head coach to know inside his own brain that his players are being paid? I mean bad from anyone's perspective, whether or not you personally agree it's bad.

StickItInTheyFace wrote:

97cats wrote:that’s the thing, Arizona isn’t any more guilty or egregious in its behavior than anyone else in how they recruited or the process.

with anything, success breeds jealousy and Arizona’s success on the recruiting front made waves, not justified mind you.

I can only guess the massive uptick raised eyebrows and also triggered animosity to the tune of its rivals and peers, but the real personal reasons i can’t say with conviction that I know.

but as soon as there was a crack in the wall, the pile on came, different and more ferocious than any of the other complicit schools who were essentially caught up in the same practice.

And the pile on hasn’t relented, and the label and agenda is still there, for all the obvious reasons that I’m sure you can recognize.

There's one thing I wonder regarding this discussion. With so much attention on college basketball right now regarding paying players and with the FBI being involved for the last two years. Have these well hidden recruiting tactics continued?

Even though this model that has been used by Arizona and other Blue Bloods has worked and been un-penetrable by the people outside the system. I would have to think this threat of the FBI involvement and the huge microscope on our program would dramatically slow down or even completely shut down any behind the scenes dealings with recruits. Yet here we are, having our best class in school history.

Does Miller have such balls to continue to run the same system for the past year under everyone's nose? Or is the reason we have the #1 class in school history because Miller is that good of a recruiter, despite the shady system?

Oh these hidden recruiting tactics have continued for sure. From Arizona's POV they can't get involved in obvious over the top "there's shady shit going on here" recruitments like Brian Bowen's, hence why you don't see Arizona involved with a litany of 2020 recruits who are in their own state, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

What made every one's life easy was the undercover FBI agent using money in gambling and in turn ending the entire investigation, which led to the FBI only getting a handful of assistants and a couple of Adidas nobodies.

Regardless the tactics have absolutely continued, but a bit less than as obvious as it was before. Arizona has been very careful though obviously and will continue to be.

Longhorned wrote:Can somebody help me out with this?

The current take by the outraged media is that Dawkins' post-trial comments can be construed to suggest (though not prove) that Miller knew his players are being paid. And that therefore Miller should not be able to survive that suggestion.

Can somebody please explain to me why it would be bad or wrong or cheating for a head coach to know inside his own brain that his players are being paid? I mean bad from anyone's perspective, whether or not you personally agree it's bad.

This story needs a bigger payoff than random assistants and a couple of Adidas nobodies go to jail for short periods of time. This story needs blood. Sean Miller and Arizona have become the focus to satiate that blood thirst. This won't end until either Sean is fired, moves on from Arizona himself, or enough time passes where nobody cares. The media made ridiculous claims when this story started and those claims have all fallen flat on their face. They need blood, they need Sean Miller to go down in a blazing fire. Spin every random tidbit you can to force his demise.

ChooChooCat wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Can somebody help me out with this?

The current take by the outraged media is that Dawkins' post-trial comments can be construed to suggest (though not prove) that Miller knew his players are being paid. And that therefore Miller should not be able to survive that suggestion.

Can somebody please explain to me why it would be bad or wrong or cheating for a head coach to know inside his own brain that his players are being paid? I mean bad from anyone's perspective, whether or not you personally agree it's bad.

This story needs a bigger payoff than random assistants and a couple of Adidas nobodies go to jail for short periods of time. This story needs blood. Sean Miller and Arizona have become the focus to satiate that blood thirst. This won't end until either Sean is fired, moves on from Arizona himself, or enough time passes where nobody cares. The media made ridiculous claims when this story started and those claims have all fallen flat on their face. They need blood, they need Sean Miller to go down in a blazing fire. Spin every random tidbit you can to force his demise.

I get that, but my question is about what justifies the cause of going after blood. Why would a coach's knowledge that his players are being paid be bad or wrong or cheating? How is it worse than, say, enjoying orange sherbert?

Longhorned wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Can somebody help me out with this?

The current take by the outraged media is that Dawkins' post-trial comments can be construed to suggest (though not prove) that Miller knew his players are being paid. And that therefore Miller should not be able to survive that suggestion.

Can somebody please explain to me why it would be bad or wrong or cheating for a head coach to know inside his own brain that his players are being paid? I mean bad from anyone's perspective, whether or not you personally agree it's bad.

This story needs a bigger payoff than random assistants and a couple of Adidas nobodies go to jail for short periods of time. This story needs blood. Sean Miller and Arizona have become the focus to satiate that blood thirst. This won't end until either Sean is fired, moves on from Arizona himself, or enough time passes where nobody cares. The media made ridiculous claims when this story started and those claims have all fallen flat on their face. They need blood, they need Sean Miller to go down in a blazing fire. Spin every random tidbit you can to force his demise.

I get that, but my question is about what justifies the cause of going after blood. Why would a coach's knowledge that his players are being paid be bad or wrong or cheating? How is it worse than, say, enjoying orange sherbert?

Just like my last sentence said, spin every random tidbit you can to force Sean Miller's demise.

Longhorned wrote:I get that, but my question is about what justifies the cause of going after blood. Why would a coach's knowledge that his players are being paid be bad or wrong or cheating? How is it worse than, say, enjoying orange sherbert?

Because they have an anonymous source they rolled with who claimed Miller prefers lime sherbert. Some of them are of Italian descent and are offended he doesn’t take frutti di bosco after dinner.

Longhorned wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Can somebody help me out with this?

The current take by the outraged media is that Dawkins' post-trial comments can be construed to suggest (though not prove) that Miller knew his players are being paid. And that therefore Miller should not be able to survive that suggestion.

Can somebody please explain to me why it would be bad or wrong or cheating for a head coach to know inside his own brain that his players are being paid? I mean bad from anyone's perspective, whether or not you personally agree it's bad.

This story needs a bigger payoff than random assistants and a couple of Adidas nobodies go to jail for short periods of time. This story needs blood. Sean Miller and Arizona have become the focus to satiate that blood thirst. This won't end until either Sean is fired, moves on from Arizona himself, or enough time passes where nobody cares. The media made ridiculous claims when this story started and those claims have all fallen flat on their face. They need blood, they need Sean Miller to go down in a blazing fire. Spin every random tidbit you can to force his demise.

I get that, but my question is about what justifies the cause of going after blood. Why would a coach's knowledge that his players are being paid be bad or wrong or cheating? How is it worse than, say, enjoying orange sherbert?

Different motivations.

Some are really invested in the charade of amateurism. For those, Miller needs to go down to show this is an amateur system and Miller was a rogue actor. It isn't the system that's corrupt, it's the one guy.

Media-wise, a lot of this is about the response to ESPN's report. A LOT of media outlets wanted Miller's head on a platter and said as much after that report. If he's fired, they don't have to admit a mistake or rush to judgment. Even though he wouldn't be fired for the allegation in the ESPN report, that fact can be glossed over easily.

The biggest one is money. The NCAA sells its product for billions. Programs like Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, etc. are crucial to that. Coaches make millions, schools make millions. Having an escape goat means the gravy train goes on for everyone but Arizona.

The comical thing is ESPN published a puff piece on Zion Williamson yesterday. It included his poetry and how he likes hanging out with friends. Zero mention of the direct mention of his family asking for cash, a house and jobs. This comes down in so many ways to the need for a bad guy...and one who won't jeopardize the larger system.

Damn good post Spiff.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Longhorned wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Can somebody help me out with this?

The current take by the outraged media is that Dawkins' post-trial comments can be construed to suggest (though not prove) that Miller knew his players are being paid. And that therefore Miller should not be able to survive that suggestion.

Can somebody please explain to me why it would be bad or wrong or cheating for a head coach to know inside his own brain that his players are being paid? I mean bad from anyone's perspective, whether or not you personally agree it's bad.

This story needs a bigger payoff than random assistants and a couple of Adidas nobodies go to jail for short periods of time. This story needs blood. Sean Miller and Arizona have become the focus to satiate that blood thirst. This won't end until either Sean is fired, moves on from Arizona himself, or enough time passes where nobody cares. The media made ridiculous claims when this story started and those claims have all fallen flat on their face. They need blood, they need Sean Miller to go down in a blazing fire. Spin every random tidbit you can to force his demise.

I get that, but my question is about what justifies the cause of going after blood. Why would a coach's knowledge that his players are being paid be bad or wrong or cheating? How is it worse than, say, enjoying orange sherbert?

Different motivations.

Some are really invested in the charade of amateurism. For those, Miller needs to go down to show this is an amateur system and Miller was a rogue actor. It isn't the system that's corrupt, it's the one guy.

Media-wise, a lot of this is about the response to ESPN's report. A LOT of media outlets wanted Miller's head on a platter and said as much after that report. If he's fired, they don't have to admit a mistake or rush to judgment. Even though he wouldn't be fired for the allegation in the ESPN report, that fact can be glossed over easily.

The biggest one is money. The NCAA sells its product for billions. Programs like Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, etc. are crucial to that. Coaches make millions, schools make millions. Having an escape goat means the gravy train goes on for everyone but Arizona.

The comical thing is ESPN published a puff piece on Zion Williamson yesterday. It included his poetry and how he likes hanging out with friends. Zero mention of the direct mention of his family asking for cash, a house and jobs. This comes down in so many ways to the need for a bad guy...and one who won't jeopardize the larger system.

That all seems right on to me, and deeply interrelated. But it's the part about being interrelated that's so problematic: Members of the media and the general public want Miller to be fired because somebody won't answer whether Miller knows in the abstract that his players are being paid. It can't be that Kryzewski and Self are somehow virtuous for not knowing that their players are being paid. That would just be lauding them for being morons. It can only be that Arizona players are being paid, and no other players are being paid.

There are three problems with that:

1) It's a completely made up assumption in every way (which, somehow, Arizona fans are supposedly being delusional for not accepting).

2) There's no NCAA rule about what any coach knows or believes.

3) Where in any of this is the mindfulness of white privilege as the current that pushes along this entire narrative that the disproportionally non-white, money-making sports, which sustain the ideal of amateurism for our swimmers and tennis players and volleyball players, should be this way? There's literally no issue with anyone paying university students for their talents, with this exception. Why, exactly, is this the hill all these white people who are benefiting off the labor of these student athletes in particular willing to die on? Why is it the coach who knows they're being paid the problem? Why aren't the ones who are outraged the problem?

Here's what firing Miller does:

1. It creates a sacrificial lamb so people who want the system to continue unharmed can claim they're taking the problem seriously and the problem has been fixed. That headline can be pushed and everyone will just hope no one digs too deeply into what the actual problem was and whether it is in any way proportional to the outcome.

2. It erases any need to ask tough questions about the public narrative to date. As long as Miller is a bad guy who gets fired, people can ignore why.

3. Firing Miller and not other coaches lends a veneer fhat the other coaches are somehow better situated. If Miller goes and Self, Wade, Williams, Kryzyzewski and Calipari stay...well, that has to be because they were better than Miller, right?

4. A high profile firing can be sold as closure. Justice was served. It avoids how deep the corruption runs and that you cannot legitimately serve justice without changing the NCAA justice system itself.

5. Punishment acts like this is complete, and avoids the potential that it is still going on. Come next year, ESPN can sell Duke's incoming class as clean as a whistle without fear.

If Miller were fired, he'd be tainted and not getting another high profile job in college basketball, and not wanting one, either. That's exactly the position of the person who discloses the entire system these interested parties are supposedly trying to hide by getting him fired.

There's truth to a lot of this, but the whole thing has a bit too much of a conspiracy theory to it. I think what's mostly driving the whole thing is a shared "ideal of amateurism" and a reflexive will to protect the status quo, which is very problematic. Even shameful.

Longhorned wrote:If Miller were fired, he'd be tainted and not getting another high profile job in college basketball, and not wanting one, either. That's exactly the position of the person who discloses the entire system these interested parties are supposedly trying to hide by getting him fired.

There's truth to a lot of this, but the whole thing has a bit too much of a conspiracy theory to it. I think what's mostly driving the whole thing is a shared "ideal of amateurism" and a reflexive will to protect the status quo, which is very problematic. Even shameful.

I don't think the different factions are conspiring so much as their common interests align. Protecting the facade of amateurism, protecting the cash cow...it isn't that individual actors are working together. It's just that when the narrative against Miller emerged, it was beneficial to many causes to embrace it.

Against that, the collateral damage to one person or program was secondary to a variety of interests. The larger point is that for a lot of people, this is not a exercise in seeking proof and seeking fact.

ChooChooCat wrote:

StickItInTheyFace wrote:
There's one thing I wonder regarding this discussion. With so much attention on college basketball right now regarding paying players and with the FBI being involved for the last two years. Have these well hidden recruiting tactics continued?

Even though this model that has been used by Arizona and other Blue Bloods has worked and been un-penetrable by the people outside the system. I would have to think this threat of the FBI involvement and the huge microscope on our program would dramatically slow down or even completely shut down any behind the scenes dealings with recruits. Yet here we are, having our best class in school history.

Does Miller have such balls to continue to run the same system for the past year under everyone's nose? Or is the reason we have the #1 class in school history because Miller is that good of a recruiter, despite the shady system?

Oh these hidden recruiting tactics have continued for sure. From Arizona's POV they can't get involved in obvious over the top "there's shady shit going on here" recruitments like Brian Bowen's, hence why you don't see Arizona involved with a litany of 2020 recruits who are in their own state, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

What made every one's life easy was the undercover FBI agent using money in gambling and in turn ending the entire investigation, which led to the FBI only getting a handful of assistants and a couple of Adidas nobodies.

Regardless the tactics have absolutely continued, but a bit less than as obvious as it was before. Arizona has been very careful though obviously and will continue to be.

Well whatever they did to stay under the radar and still pull this class, keep doing it.

CalStateTempe wrote:Love it spiff.

Front of shirts: “A Payers Program”. With the block A
Back of shirts: double birds up. Could even have like a flock of 10 birds, 5 on the right and 5 on the left, with birds number 3 and 8 flying up to the sky. You know for the kids in the audience.

Jefe, make it happen!

Can those birds be pooping on the ESPN logo?

ChooChooCat wrote:
Oh these hidden recruiting tactics have continued for sure. From Arizona's POV they can't get involved in obvious over the top "there's shady shit going on here" recruitments like Brian Bowen's, hence why you don't see Arizona involved with a litany of 2020 recruits who are in their own state, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Kyree Walker? Seems like he's perfect for the Muss bus. Dalen Terry?

Longhorned wrote:
2) There's no NCAA rule about what any coach knows or believes.

Tell that to the USC football program.

Maybe it's somewhat true in respect to the media what 97 is saying, maybe that's an underlying reason. But I think for the most part you guys are over thinking this. Think back before the Schlabach report came out, there really wasn't many people coming for Miller's head save for the 'Miller is responsible for what happens in his program and his assistant coaches' people. Of which there were a few media people but definitely not a plurality of them, and for the most part Miller wasn't a whipping boy and being called to be fired and that continued until the Schlabach story drops. Everything changes after that happens, everyone thinks Miller is done and even us alums/fans think the same initially. But then ONLY US Arizona fans & Scheer start thinking that the story doesn't make sense. Everyone else, including the media except for like Jeff Goodman, Sam Vecenie and a couple of others, moves on from the breaking news cycle and they don't care enough to know or research the story even further or question it. And the 247 story and SI story refuting the Schlabach story certainly didn't have the same reach the Schlabach story did, ESPN certainly wasn't pushing it everywhere or running across the bottom line.

Because no one even bothered to care to look deeper into the story, Miller was guilty and should've been fired then and there (he almost was). All they saw was a report that said there's a wiretap of Miller securing the commitment of Ayton for $100k. The perception and narrative about the program and Miller was set and everything then after just was more ammo and evidence. Here's where 97s OP come in, it might've already been the perception of Miller/program but that story changed things far more in the eyes of the public and the media.

At this time Miller is suffering from the Pitino sydrome of having one too many scandals and somehow still surviving and media not being able to understand how Miller still has a job. This is evident when non college basketball sports people talk about Miller, first thing they say without fail is 'i can't believe Miller still has a job.' The same people where gunning for Pitino's job even before the FBI scandal happened and by the time that hit, it was one too many scandals for Louisville. Pitino & Jurich were probably fired way too quickly and unjustly, they overreacted. Louisville & Pitino came up more in the first trial, but for the most part I think they got out pretty clean, all things considering. Now think back to what you thought when Pitino & Louisville were involved in the FBI investigation, you probably thought similar things people who crucified Miller now are thinking. Of course he's guilty, of course he's a cheater and a crook etc etc etc.

The Schlabach story changed everything. And everything after (and before) got magnified and amplified and made Miller look incredibly guilty, because they don't care to look deeper into these things like Arizona fans do because it affects our program/school. I mean let's look at everything that happened that looks horrible

• Book gets arrested
• Arizona is involved and mentioned with 3 players in the initial FBI report; Little, Quinerly, Bowen
• Schlabach report itself
• Rawle & Triers brought up in Yahoo! report
• Pasternak named brought up in Yahoo! report
• there was a couple of Miller/Arizona things in the 1st trial
• a bunch of ABOR emergency meetings
• Phelps being 'fired' with the Shareef thing
• Dawkins going after Miller to testify
• the second trial, lots of Miller stuff
• Book says Miller is paying $10k a month for Ayton
• Dawkins not answering if Miller knows if his players are being paid (sigh)

I probably missed a couple, that's just off the top of my head. In a vacuum, all of that looks bad on the surface, really really really bad in a series of events. Imagine if all of that happened to another school and coach, we all would think they're guilty because we wouldn't care to look into it further, we all would only read the headlines. That's what happens to the media also, they see a bad headline in a tweet and clutch their pearls and are flabbergasted Miller still has a job. I don't think there's this agena to target Miller & Arizona specifically, Arizona & Miller just keep coming up. You don't really hear anything about other schools anymore. Nor do I think the perception of Arizona cheating before the FBI scandal played much of a role in the media's crusade.

Currently we're at the point where they want Miller gone because all of this happened under his watch, and the "how could he not have known" arguments. It's bullshit but to me thinking about all of this in a vacuum, is fair argument albeit a wrong thinking one. They're now in the 'NCAA Bylaw 11.1.1.1' phase now where they think the NCAA is going to hammer Arizona because of Miller, just like Miller was going to to testify, just like Miller was going to be fired after the trial etc. We're back where we started, "Miller is responsible for his program and should've known.'

Miller's not getting fired, and we have a great fucking team for next season.

As I said (way) upthread, I'm more excited than ever for AZ hoops. I refuse to let Mark Schlabach and a doom/gloom mindset spoil this party.

Bear down!

I still don’t get what is meant by “dirtiest, no limits,” and such.
What can one school do that the other schools can’t?

I recall Jeff Whiteys mom being upset that she had to get a crummy job.
Apparently KU got her a better job.

Could someone spell it out?

NYCats. On your Louisville point, when you said they got off pretty clean, Bowen's dad said he was paid by Louisville.

All that happened while Louisville was on NCAA probation for giving recruits prostitutes. Pitino is VERY differently situated from Miller. No recruit or parent has testified to getting money directly from Miller or Book. We weren't previously on probation for extra benefits to recruits.

Yes, the danger is public opinion. That's a major reason I've said I feel better in the NCAA litigation process than I do in dealing with ESPN. With the NCAA, a properly conducted litigation strategy will separate fact from allegation and draw out the differences and similarities between Miller, Arizona and comparably situated programs.

Postmaster wrote:I still don’t get what is meant by “dirtiest, no limits,” and such.
What can one school do that the other schools can’t?

I recall Jeff Whiteys mom being upset that she had to get a crummy job.
Apparently KU got her a better job.

Could someone spell it out?

It means we made too many blue bloods say UUUHHH, so they decided they were not down with the tank. Miller utilized mystikal powers to make Arizona more powerful. This provoked direct conflict with the existing cash money crew.

We started doing what other programs did better than they were doing it.

So this all started at AZ for Miller? Or was he using similar sorcery at Xavier?

Did he learn from Sendek/Matta and groomed Pasternack?

Jefe wrote:So this all started at AZ for Miller? Or was he using similar sorcery at Xavier?

Did he learn from Sendek/Matta and groomed Pasternack?

This is just the game everyone plays. Miller was just aggressive and successful. There's not really a different blueprint.

the difference - better resources, deeper pockets, and more clout with NIKE

Spaceman Spiff wrote:NYCats. On your Louisville point, when you said they got off pretty clean, Bowen's dad said he was paid by Louisville.

Yeah but Mack is the coach now, Pitino is in Greece. They haven't really come up again since then as best I can recall. The news cycle moved from that a long time ago. And iirc during the trial it was said that Pitino was oblivious to everything and didn't know, that's why our favorite person Dickie V was taking a victory lap.

Again let's use Arizona fan logic, as if Louisville was our team. Where's the proof that Bowen got paid? Bowen's dad says he was paid, Book says Miller was paying Ayton $10k monthly, it's all hearsay. Maybe there's a difference because Bowen didn't play and Quinerly, Little did but even so if Bowen's dad says he was paid Bowen never actually suited up for Louisville. What's the punishment there? They didn't have an asst coach arrested did they?

Spaceman Spiff wrote:All that happened while Louisville was on NCAA probation for giving recruits prostitutes. Pitino is VERY differently situated from Miller. No recruit or parent has testified to getting money directly from Miller or Book. We weren't previously on probation for extra benefits to recruits.

Well obviously there isn't a direct comparison between the two and I wasn't making one, my argument was about the public and media perception that happened. Like I said before, the Schlabach story pretty much put Miller on thin ice and anything that came after that was just icing on the crook and criminal cake. I mean they couldn't even believe he wasn't fired years ago, like Pitino. Just like Pitino, he doesn't get a benefit of a doubt anymore, everything that came out after the Schlabach story is confirmation bias in the eyes of everyone. Only difference here is the prostitutes thing did happen and they got a post season ban iirc. But the same arguments arose out of that when the HC wasn't fired and the asst coaches got in trouble, 'well he had to know'

And you can bet if anything else comes up in a couple years, completely unrelated to any of this, Arizona will do what Louisville did and get rid of the coach without thinking about it. There's only so many scandals one will put up with. Anyway this really isn't about Louisville. Unfortunately for Arizona, bad headlines kept popping up about Miller and Arizona long after the Schlabach story, it's not like we stayed in the clear the whole time. How could anyone that isn't an Arizona fan not think Arizona should fire Miller?

Spaceman Spiff wrote: Yes, the danger is public opinion. That's a major reason I've said I feel better in the NCAA litigation process than I do in dealing with ESPN. With the NCAA, a properly conducted litigation strategy will separate fact from allegation and draw out the differences and similarities between Miller, Arizona and comparably situated programs.

Yes. Miller, Ayton, Rawle, Iso Zo have all been cleared internally, by the FBI, by the NCAA back in the fall of 2017 after Book was arrested. And they have all been to Arizona's campus since then. Arizona should cooperate but also pushback when it needs to because they have no investigatory powers, nor any ability to expand beyond what the FBI is giving them from the trials. And not let them prosecute the program with hearsay. With that said, Book pleaded guilty to taking bribes and we still have to wait what he says that might help or hurt the program during his sentencing. We're getting hit with something, probably probation and a 1 year post season ban - maybe Miller gets suspended 9 games like Boeheim.

Again let's use Arizona fan logic, as if Louisville was our team. Where's the proof that Bowen got paid? Bowen's dad says he was paid, Book says Miller was paying Ayton $10k monthly, it's all hearsay. Maybe there's a difference because Bowen didn't play and Quinerly, Little did but even so if Bowen's dad says he was paid Bowen never actually suited up for Louisville. What's the punishment there? They didn't have an asst coach arrested did they?

A few things. Hearsay is testimony without direct knowledge. Bowen's dad saying he got paid...he has direct knowledge there. Book's statements about Miller come from third parties to the payment, not payer or payee. That is far closer to hearsay.

Bowen only didn't play for Louisville because they wouldn't play him due to payments. The assistant who was accused of paying him was canned along with Pitino and Jurich. I can't believe Louisville would deny that their program dropped money on Bowen when they suspended and fired everyone involved on the payee/payer end.

That's why distinctions matter. No payer or payee at Arizona was suspended or fired for the alleged payment. Book was fired, convicted and charged for being a public employee accepting bribe money from that position. He wasn't fired for paying players, and the player (Quinerly) he was supposed to be paying was ruled eligible. Miller wasn't fired for payments and Rawle and Ayton were never suspended.

We stack up much better.

A postseason ban for the upcoming season would be...I mean...I can't even process that.

It means we made too many blue bloods say UUUHHH, so they decided they were not down with the tank. Miller utilized mystikal powers to make Arizona more powerful. This provoked direct conflict with the existing cash money crew.

We started doing what other programs did better than they were doing it.

I just think of the show The Wire now. Miller got in the game with prime real estate and cash flow to take out all the other recruiting gangsters that were at the top of their game and had no competition. Now there's an all out gang war, and everyone wants Miller to go down in flames.

Beachcat97 wrote:A postseason ban for the upcoming season would be...I mean...I can't even process that.

I feel like there should be a predict our sanctions thread.

I will say I'm much more optimistic than NYCat about not receiving a postseason ban. I also think it is less likely Miller is directly sanctioned. I could see a scholarship reduction and probation.

Spiff, it's not about if Arizona stacks better or worse than another school. Its not even about Louisville, or comparing it's circumstances with Arizona's. It's not the point at all, I don't even know why you're fixated on this specifically. Look, it's very easy to see how the media and public can see everything (only on the surface) that's happening around the basketball program and see why they think Miller should be gone.

There's no ulterior motive or people specifically targeting the program and Miller. This isn't because they'll protect Duke or UNC or UK or their money makers. Neither is it because Arizona was breaking rules blatantly and being dirty on the recruiting trail. It's far more simple. For 2+ years now there's been something popping up left and right. Everytime something does, just add it to the list of why people think Miller should be gone. Sometimes it's stuff involving Miller himself or not directly involved with Miller but it's things 'he had to have known or should've known and if he didn't he should be gone.' Everytime the snowball keeps growing and growing of why Miller should be gone in the eyes of everyone else who don't care enough to dig deeper into.these issues.

There doesn't need to be a media objective gunning for Miller's job to have a huge payoff and a book end to the FBI investigation and trials. Probably only Schlabach who's actually invested in that happening. We also think because we explain these things and look deeper into these things on here and other boards and Twitter that it automatically negates the stories and everyone else should see that, which won't happen because they're not invested in it, which is the larger problem.

Beachcat97 wrote:A postseason ban for the upcoming season would be...I mean...I can't even process that.

Unlikely this year, that's why Mannion, Green are still committed - they'll be long gone after the NCAA sanctions hit.. Also why 2020 recruiting should be harder to recruit because sanctions are much more up in the air and could affect them during their time at Arizona if they commit.