Bear Down Wildcats

Don't want to work, just want to watch some basketball. Love that we are in the marquee tourney and on ESPIN but talk about a love hate set of emotions as I hate what ESPIN says about us

Wait I thought I was told U of A war going 0-3 in Maui

I’m so damn pumped for tonight. Sorta feel like Zaga has become one of our bigger OOC rivals over the years. Wish they were at full strength.

dcZONAfan wrote:They were missing a likely Big 12 1st teamer, so that argument is pretty weak.

Wigginton is loads better than anyone playing on either team last night.

His replacement was average at best, but the other guards don't go off for 48 if he plays. Missing a high level player is obviously detrimental, but it sometimes seems like people factor in 2 buckets on one shot or 6 playing 5 instead of the trade-off. Hence, why I think him playing would have been more about added depth giving Arizona trouble; not necessarily his skill level.

CalStateTempe wrote: That dude gets pushed around.

To be fair, Barcello's "pushed around" was really 2 plays, and one was a shoulder lowered football hit followed by a 3 step layup. That was an offensive foul the entire way and a blown call...a good defensive play by AB that seemed obvious to everyone, including the announcers, but not the ref that called it.

He plays good positional defense and rarely throws the ball away. His passing is above average and he has sufficient handle. He works as a safe player who won't get in trouble when there are other scorers on the floor for 5 to 10 minutes at this point. If he ever makes his shot, that will make his time more toward the top of that 10 minute standard.

I am not certain what Doutrive's issues are from Miller's view, but I would guess he would be pushed around much more than Barcello, physically, and perhaps he gets out of position too much. I am going to trust the coaches on that one. Doutrive's offensive game is clearly more dynamic than Barcello, but we are not in a position where we are short on wings that can penetrate and score.

Are we considering redshirting him?

EVCat wrote:

CalStateTempe wrote: That dude gets pushed around.

To be fair, Barcello's "pushed around" was really 2 plays, and one was a shoulder lowered football hit followed by a 3 step layup. That was an offensive foul the entire way and a blown call...a good defensive play by AB that seemed obvious to everyone, including the announcers, but not the ref that called it.

He plays good positional defense and rarely throws the ball away. His passing is above average and he has sufficient handle. He works as a safe player who won't get in trouble when there are other scorers on the floor for 5 to 10 minutes at this point. If he ever makes his shot, that will make his time more toward the top of that 10 minute standard.

I am not certain what Doutrive's issues are from Miller's view, but I would guess he would be pushed around much more than Barcello, physically, and perhaps he gets out of position too much. I am going to trust the coaches on that one. Doutrive's offensive game is clearly more dynamic than Barcello, but we are not in a position where we are short on wings that can penetrate and score.

Are we considering redshirting him?

There's literally nothing about Barcello's defense that I agree with you about. I will say the one possession where he was called for a foul was honestly the best defense I've seen him play here. He's not awful or anything, but I see a guy who gets lost here and there as well and that's without getting overpowered or anything else. Honestly if the best thing you can say about the guy is he's a safe player for 5 to 10 minutes then he's a nothing more than a glorified walk on and you might as well give all his minutes to Smith if you don't want to give them to Doutrive. If he ever starts making his shot then he can start pulling his weight, but unless that changes by conference play his minutes will evaporate just like they did last year. I get why Miller is giving him a shot, because he knows the guy can shoot, but if it doesn't translate then he's just wasting every one's time. This team doesn't need a safe player off the bench, it needs a contributor.

I haven't seen anything from Doutrive that is a glaring issue on defense and certainly nothing that's so obvious that you have to play Barcello over him. I will say that last night for about 3/4 of the game we were certainly short on wings that could penetrate and score. A guy like Doutrive would've been a perfect option off the bench to possibly get us out of a slump. If Barcello continues to be nothing more than a "safe player" then his minutes need to go either to the defender/rebounder in Smith or the offense off the bench in Doutrive.

He's not redshirting.

Choo, what is limiting DD playing time then? We all see he brings much more upside athletically and I am sure the coaches can see that but something must be keeping as the 10th man and not getting any minutes generally

From my uneducated basketball eye, I would characterize Barcello’s defense as “jittery”

Like everyone here, we are all pulling for Barcello, but at some point a non contributed is a liability.

We needed a slasher like doutrive in the game the last 8minutes of the first half if anything to stop the bleeding.

I understand Barcello has a quick release, but I still feel like he rushes his shot.

Every team needs a safe 5 to 10 minute player that doesn't throw the ball away and stays in front of his guy. And I wouldn't say he is a non-contributor in the offensive sets considering how closely he is guarded off ball. What does that do for spacing?

And every fan base has that player they really hope makes it. We probably have two in AB and Doutrive.

AB is getting minutes for some reason. I am going to guess that his upside outweighs his risk right now more than DD. Or, at least, that's the way Miller sees it. That might fade as the season goes, if DD continues to improve and if AB continues to miss from 3 in his rare launches.

It's the oldest trope in the message board world...the "I trust the coach to know more than me" vs the "coaches make mistakes and have flaws, and what I am seeing is one" battle. I've sat on both sides, but I tend to err on the side of coaches, especially when it comes to early season playing time. I figure I have seen very, very limited minutes of all these players, while the staff has seen countless hours of the same players. At some point, that has to translate to on-court play, and DD has looked dynamic late in blowouts. But something is holding him back, and I doubt it a grudge or whatever.

I assume DD will pass AB in minutes, likely this season if there is no notion of redshirting (given our numbers, that would be odd unless he flat-lines in practice or off the court). But CSM wants something from Alex, or at the very least is using the early season as one last chance for him to do something.

azcat49 wrote:Choo, what is limiting DD playing time then? We all see he brings much more upside athletically and I am sure the coaches can see that but something must be keeping as the 10th man and not getting any minutes generally

Experience is the only reason I got. EVcat may have a point in regards to how many penetrators we got or at least that may be how Miller sees it regardless of the fact we could've used one yesterday. I think DD does get minutes this year, but we may have to wait until conference play. There's just not enough off the bench at the moment with the 4 guys we play now to win games consistently.

EVCat wrote:But CSM wants something from Alex, or at the very least is using the early season as one last chance for him to do something.

He wants that damn 3 ball which falls all the time in practice to finally start falling in games. Miller is going to continue to give Barcello every opportunity until it's apparent it's just not going to happen.

On another note if I never see the lineup of Coleman, Barcello, Smith, Akot, Lee on the court on the same time again it'll be too soon. Kill that lineup with fire please.

ChooChooCat wrote:

EVCat wrote:But CSM wants something from Alex, or at the very least is using the early season as one last chance for him to do something.

He wants that damn 3 ball which falls all the time in practice to finally start falling in games. Miller is going to continue to give Barcello every opportunity until it's apparent it's just not going to happen.

On another note if I never see the lineup of Coleman, Barcello, Smith, Akot, Lee on the court on the same time again it'll be too soon. Kill that lineup with fire please.

I think we may need to play with a shorter bench than any other time in Miller's tenure this year. And I'm fine with that, because I think our starters are solid across the board.

We really need one more guy who can actually score the ball. I hope Miller is bringing DD along in practice, and begins to implement him into the lineup as we near conference play. I really think Miller is going to need use his bench this year. Not because it is talented, but because I dont think we can afford any let down on defense this year. Our offense is going to struggle at times, and Miller is going to need fresh legs defensively.

Obviously, that bucks Miller's historical trend, and I might be dead wrong. Just a gut feeling watching these guys.

Beachcat97 wrote:I’m so damn pumped for tonight. Sorta feel like Zaga has become one of our bigger OOC rivals over the years. Wish they were at full strength.

Dito, it's exactly what I wanted. I like our chances tonight.

I also like watching this kind of team much more than last year's. Scrappy over-achieving team vs. a group of individuals with potential that is never reached. It fits Miller's personality better and I think ultimately, if they can continue to improve, the ceiling is about as high.

ChooChooCat wrote:

azcat49 wrote:Choo, what is limiting DD playing time then? We all see he brings much more upside athletically and I am sure the coaches can see that but something must be keeping as the 10th man and not getting any minutes generally

Experience is the only reason I got. EVcat may have a point in regards to how many penetrators we got or at least that may be how Miller sees it regardless of the fact we could've used one yesterday. I think DD does get minutes this year, but we may have to wait until conference play. There's just not enough off the bench at the moment with the 4 guys we play now to win games consistently.

I think Miller tends to class reserves into bigs, wings and points. Doutrive is a wing, and he's behind Akot and Smith there. Barcello is the easiest person to jump, production wise, but Barcello can be a point and Doutrive can't.

Then, Miller seems to trust vets more with defensive concepts. It's been that way where Miller prizes the solid, dependable guy over the higher upside. I get it, because DD can develop in practice too. Especially with an 8th or 9th man, not losing the game is probably bigger than winning it.

Anyone have a link to video highlights from last night? I don't get ESPNU and have only so far found little snippets of last night.

threenumberones wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:I’m so damn pumped for tonight. Sorta feel like Zaga has become one of our bigger OOC rivals over the years. Wish they were at full strength.

Dito, it's exactly what I wanted. I like our chances tonight.

I also like watching this kind of team much more than last year's. Scrappy over-achieving team vs. a group of individuals with potential that is never reached. It fits Miller's personality better and I think ultimately, if they can continue to improve, the ceiling is about as high.

Someone upthread noted that last night might end up being the biggest game of the season since it opened the door for these matchups with top 10 teams. I actually like our chances against Gonzaga tonight, not just because they're without Tillie but because our guys have nothing to lose and may be the looser team tonight. If we get better shooting from the Brandons and defend well for most of the game, we should be within striking distance. Last I checked, Zags are favored by 10. AZ with the points feels like an excellent wager tonight.

Bear down!

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

azcat49 wrote:Choo, what is limiting DD playing time then? We all see he brings much more upside athletically and I am sure the coaches can see that but something must be keeping as the 10th man and not getting any minutes generally

Experience is the only reason I got. EVcat may have a point in regards to how many penetrators we got or at least that may be how Miller sees it regardless of the fact we could've used one yesterday. I think DD does get minutes this year, but we may have to wait until conference play. There's just not enough off the bench at the moment with the 4 guys we play now to win games consistently.

I think Miller tends to class reserves into bigs, wings and points. Doutrive is a wing, and he's behind Akot and Smith there. Barcello is the easiest person to jump, production wise, but Barcello can be a point and Doutrive can't.

Then, Miller seems to trust vets more with defensive concepts. It's been that way where Miller prizes the solid, dependable guy over the higher upside. I get it, because DD can develop in practice too. Especially with an 8th or 9th man, not losing the game is probably bigger than winning it.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've seen Barcello operate as a point guard at all this year. I feel like he almost exclusively has played with either Bwill or Coleman, and is playing basically strictly as a shooter. DD isn't as good of a shooter as Barcello (at least in practice), but I think may be better at basically everything else.

I'm pretty sure Miller is a "numbers guy" in which case someone needs to send him a copy of Nassim Talebs "Fooled by Randomness" because Barcello missing three's in an actual game is NOT a random event...its a mathematical fact and it does not matter how many threes you make in practice in game time it is a different set of variables and very few from practice translate...

I have yet to see Barcello live up to his "purest shooter on team" moniker in an actual game...not once.

It's not an anomaly anymore...if he is in the game he is an offensive liability...so what is his upside on defense?

Beachcat97 wrote:Anyone have a link to video highlights from last night? I don't get ESPNU and have only so far found little snippets of last night.

I couldn't believe Coleman pulled up for a 3 on that break with less than 2 to play. Miller was pointing to Luther in the corner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcxbPue3OGc" target="_blank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9oDfF2DucM" target="_blank

first live game action for me all season - some thoughts

Starters

Coleman is a huge upgrade at PG - confident, passionate, tough, ballzy - complete opposite from what was here before
Williams is probably is the best player on the team - however, his inability to finish at the rim is alarming plus hes very physically immature...look for the ball to be in his hands more and more as the season progresses - but can he score?
Randolph is two-faced - from swishes to air-balls, hes got it all...he's the one player on our team paired with Williams who can make the difference, and the one player who can burn it down - i wonder more if anyone's home sometimes?
Luther was a gigantic addition for this season - i have no idea where AZ would be at the end of this season without him but thank you Jesus
Jeter looked really solid - love his leadership and effort on the glass - he has no problem mixing it up

Bench

not much here - in fact i think outside of Smith and maybe Lee not one of those players should ever play at AZ

Outlook

i think this team struggles in conf play (esp on the road) and fails to make the NCAA Tournament with a record worse than i expected.

That bench comment feels pretty stunning ("not much here - in fact i think outside of Smith and maybe Lee not one of those players should ever play at AZ")

Black shirt tonight?

ChooChooCat wrote:
He wants that damn 3 ball which falls all the time in practice to finally start falling in games. Miller is going to continue to give Barcello every opportunity until it's apparent it's just not going to happen.

And where I get to hop from the "trust coaches" to "question rationale"...

Alex Barcello hits 3s in practice. He has good form and if he shoots enough, they will fall, blah, blah.

But that was never what he was...a 3 point shooter. He was a scorer who shot very well from 3. He did a lot in the lane, on the baseline, and like that 17' dribble and pull up he hit the other night in both his high school and Oakland Soldiers career. Evaluating him as a straight 3-point shooter, some JJ Redick-type, was always false. I'd love to see him get told in a blowout game "Alex...go in there and score. Now. Not shoot...score." The handful of successful plays he had last year all came off penetration. He had a knack for scoring with runners, pull ups, weird push shots, layups where he showed ball late so as not to get blocked into next week, etc.

ESPN recruiting said "He is reminiscent of former Stanford standout Chris Hernandez, but Barcello is a better shooter and a more vertically explosive athlete."

Peach State Basketball evaluators after his EYBL:

"Barcello is a combo guard who proved to be effective with or without the ball in his hands. He has a quick trigger and hit pull ups and floaters in the kill zone."

"Barcello is a steady handler of the basketball at the point position. However, he complements that skill with the ability to shoot and also be able to create his own shot."

All of that said, this might not be the right place or level for him to do all of that. He was a late burner in the AAU world, mostly due to loyalty to his local AAU team until late, but when he did go out, he impressed. This is his best chance to make it here, and it is passing him by. The competition will only get more intense.

Jefe wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:Anyone have a link to video highlights from last night? I don't get ESPNU and have only so far found little snippets of last night.

I couldn't believe Coleman pulled up for a 3 on that break with less than 2 to play. Miller was pointing to Luther in the corner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcxbPue3OGc" target="_blank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9oDfF2DucM" target="_blank

Thanks, Jefe!

97cats wrote:first live game action for me all season - some thoughts

Starters

Coleman is a huge upgrade at PG - confident, passionate, tough, ballzy - complete opposite from what was here before
Williams is probably is the best player on the team - however, his inability to finish at the rim is alarming plus hes very physically immature...look for the ball to be in his hands more and more as the season progresses - but can he score?
Randolph is two-faced - from swishes to air-balls, hes got it all...he's the one player on our team paired with Williams who can make the difference, and the one player who can burn it down - i wonder more if anyone's home sometimes?
Luther was a gigantic addition for this season - i have no idea where AZ would be at the end of this season without him but thank you Jesus
Jeter looked really solid - love his leadership and effort on the glass - he has no problem mixing it up

Bench


not much here - in fact i think outside of Smith and maybe Lee not one of those players should ever play at AZ

Outlook

i think this team struggles in conf play (esp on the road) and fails to make the NCAA Tournament with a record worse than i expected.

Seriously?! After four games, 97?! I would understand if we ended up losing last night, but our guys fought and got a very big win. I think the jury is still out on this season's prospects.

Beachcat97 wrote:
Seriously?!

yes

Beachcat97 wrote:After four games, 97?!

that was the first game action of any kind ive seen this season and AZ is in trouble

Beachcat97 wrote:I would understand if we ended up losing last night, but our guys fought and got a very big win.

i disagree - that Iowa State team beats AZ by 25 with a full roster - however the win is going to look very good in February

Beachcat97 wrote:I think the jury is still out on this season's prospects.

the jury can be out for you - its a free country, this isnt Russia? is this Russia, Danny??

Jefe wrote:Black shirt tonight?

yes cause i almost always wear black - but im not in maui

Lol, 97.

Well, I'm going to hold out making a larger estimation until we have a larger sample size. Let's see how they do tonight and tomorrow. These two games will have a huge impact on whether we get into the tourney. High quality OOC wins are sometimes the difference between getting in and not.

Beachcat97 wrote:Lol, 97.

Beachcat97 wrote:Well, I'm going to hold out making a larger estimation until we have a larger sample size. Let's see how they do tonight and tomorrow. These two games will have a huge impact on whether we get into the tourney. High quality OOC wins are sometimes the difference between getting in and not.

this is all true

To be clear, the Barcello hill is not one I am looking to die on.

I just really hope he turns a corner, and I don't see it happening drifting off-ball shooting a jumper a game, if even that.

97cats wrote:
Outlook

i think this team struggles in conf play (esp on the road) and fails to make the NCAA Tournament with a record worse than i expected.

You are usually correct on most things Wildcat Basketball.... but I think the air quality in California is effecting your brain right now!!!!

EVCat wrote:To be clear, the Barcello hill is not one I am looking to die on.

I just really hope he turns a corner, and I don't see it happening drifting off-ball shooting a jumper a game, if even that.

Barcello is beginning to remind me of Lavender. Sorry if someone else already made that comparison.

threenumberones wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:I’m so damn pumped for tonight. Sorta feel like Zaga has become one of our bigger OOC rivals over the years. Wish they were at full strength.

Dito, it's exactly what I wanted. I like our chances tonight.

I also like watching this kind of team much more than last year's. Scrappy over-achieving team vs. a group of individuals with potential that is never reached. It fits Miller's personality better and I think ultimately, if they can continue to improve, the ceiling is about as high.

Seconded the bolded. My father and I had a legit argument on the phone after the game ended. What was funny was I wasn't disagreeing with what he was saying -

* Going to be a lot of losses for a Miller team this year
* Not enough passing
* Not nearly good enough defense

BUT. I had a better time in the second half of that game than I've had in awhile. Coleman especially has heart. He reminds me a little bit of both what I did AND didn't like about Nic Wise. But it's mid-November. Miller will have this team playing at least a little better defense, a little more ball sharing - and even though the losses will be hard to watch - this under-talented team for us (something we've been spoiled with) will bust their ass & want it bad. And I think that's fun as hell.

Bear Down.

97cats wrote:Coleman is a huge upgrade at PG - confident, passionate, tough, ballzy - complete opposite from what was here before
Williams is probably is the best player on the team - however, his inability to finish at the rim is alarming plus hes very physically immature...look for the ball to be in his hands more and more as the season progresses - but can he score?
Randolph is two-faced - from swishes to air-balls, hes got it all...he's the one player on our team paired with Williams who can make the difference, and the one player who can burn it down - i wonder more if anyone's home sometimes?

I posted comparing him to Nic Wise before I read this post 97 & I think you said the same thing I was trying to say, just better.

Beachcat97 wrote:

EVCat wrote:To be clear, the Barcello hill is not one I am looking to die on.

I just really hope he turns a corner, and I don't see it happening drifting off-ball shooting a jumper a game, if even that.

Barcello is beginning to remind me of Lavender. Sorry if someone else already made that comparison.

At least Lavender could shoot. Barcello added zero value on the court last night.

I haven't seen anything from Doutrive that is a glaring issue on defense

I can't say I agree. Every time he has been in it is all I watch for and it is pretty obvious to me why he doesn't play.

97cats wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:
Seriously?!

yes

Beachcat97 wrote:After four games, 97?!

that was the first game action of any kind ive seen this season and AZ is in trouble

Beachcat97 wrote:I would understand if we ended up losing last night, but our guys fought and got a very big win.

i disagree - that Iowa State team beats AZ by 25 with a full roster - however the win is going to look very good in February

Beachcat97 wrote:I think the jury is still out on this season's prospects.

the jury can be out for you - its a free country, this isnt Russia? is this Russia, Danny??

Agreed. This could be a long, painful season. The damage from last year's FBI report and negative media coverage definitely made its impact because Arizona did not bring anyone in, other than Williams (how can a highly rated player of that caliber miss so many layups?), and it shows. Iowa State was missing 4 players (2 starters) -- they would have torched AZ with a full line-up. Also, as far as wins are concerned, I see no reason for anyone to get overly excited. This wasn't Kentucky, it was an under-manned Iowa State team. There was a time when the Arizona program would have dominated most of the game and won this game by double digits. It was nice to get the win, if anything to add to the season's overall win column, but the performance on the court showed a limited team with a substandard bench. As I watched the Cats for the first time this season, I could not help but think this is a major step down from a typical Arizona team. Hopefully these kids play hard, develop and piece together a respectable season, but there is a lot of work to do.

Beachcat97 wrote:Anyone have a link to video highlights from last night? I don't get ESPNU and have only so far found little snippets of last night.

pretty sure you can watch it on watchespn if you have espn

Beachcat97 wrote:

Jefe wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:Anyone have a link to video highlights from last night? I don't get ESPNU and have only so far found little snippets of last night.

I couldn't believe Coleman pulled up for a 3 on that break with less than 2 to play. Miller was pointing to Luther in the corner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcxbPue3OGc" target="_blank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9oDfF2DucM" target="_blank

Thanks, Jefe!

The Coleman three was a "No, no, no...Yes!" shot if I've ever seen one.

Guys...I think that Iowa State team is very solid. I don't think whatsoever we would have gotten blown out if they had their whole team playing, but I do think we probably lose a close game if they did. Not sure why everyone came away from a game against a solid opponent where both of the Brandons played like shit and we won, and the consensus seems to be that we're worse than we thought heading into the game? Doesn't make sense to me. I didn't see any reason to think we're not a tourney-caliber team last night, but certainly very small sample size and we'll know more tonight.

Anyone else find it telling that Randolph was on the bench in the last couple minutes and Miller deferred to Smith.

SunnyAZ wrote:

I haven't seen anything from Doutrive that is a glaring issue on defense

I can't say I agree. Every time he has been in it is all I watch for and it is pretty obvious to me why he doesn't play.

What are you seeing to help me observe when he does play.?

azcat49 wrote:Anyone else find it telling that Randolph was on the bench in the last couple minutes and Miller deferred to Smith.

i found myself saying this to Randolph on several occasions last night...

hello??? mcfly??? anyone home???

he has that 'wtf look' down pat.

97cats wrote:

azcat49 wrote:Anyone else find it telling that Randolph was on the bench in the last couple minutes and Miller deferred to Smith.

i found myself saying this to Randolph on several occasions last night...

hello??? mcfly??? anyone home???

he has that 'wtf look' down pat.

LOL! 97 is in rare form today.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:

Jefe wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:Anyone have a link to video highlights from last night? I don't get ESPNU and have only so far found little snippets of last night.

I couldn't believe Coleman pulled up for a 3 on that break with less than 2 to play. Miller was pointing to Luther in the corner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcxbPue3OGc" target="_blank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9oDfF2DucM" target="_blank

Thanks, Jefe!

The Coleman three was a "No, no, no...Yes!" shot if I've ever seen one.

The words out of my mouth: "You gotta be fu...WOO HOO!!!"

Well, here's hoping that Coleman's best moments in an AZ uniform are still to come. I agree that that pull-up three was a little cray cray, but it went in. I can remember a lot of Mark Lyons shots that I didn't expect him to make, but he did. Same with Rawle, Dusan (remember his sudden love of the three last year?), even good ole Derrick Williams. It remains to be seen whether JC's performance last night was a flash in the pan or a legit clutchness.

SunnyAZ wrote:

I haven't seen anything from Doutrive that is a glaring issue on defense

I can't say I agree. Every time he has been in it is all I watch for and it is pretty obvious to me why he doesn't play.

That's hilarious because I do the same with Barcello and I cant understand why he plays.