Bear Down Wildcats

Maybe Steve Kerr is tired of the nba

I know this is stating the obvious but the longer this drags on the better chance our core team members look for greener pastures - Tubelis, Kerr, Benn, Koloko, Terry and Akinjo (assuming he's just testing the waters).

So let me get this straight:
1) Fire your top 10 coach with a proven track record after supporting him for 3 years - Check
2) No confirmed plan in place to replace said coach - Check
3) Totally screw up the new coaching hire after top 10 coach is fired - Check
4) Start over the new coach hire process thus losing your Top 25 team for next year - Check

So excited to see what's next...

cerec_cat wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:54 am Maybe Steve Kerr is tired of the nba

He's not.

azgreg wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:23 am

cerec_cat wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:54 am Maybe Steve Kerr is tired of the nba

He's not.

Yeah I know, but I can dream can't I??

EastCoastCat wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:17 am I know this is stating the obvious but the longer this drags on the better chance our core team members look for greener pastures - Tubelis, Kerr, Benn, Koloko, Terry and Akinjo (assuming he's just testing the waters).

So let me get this straight:
1) Fire your top 10 coach with a proven track record after supporting him for 3 years - Check
2) No confirmed plan in place to replace said coach - Check
3) Totally screw up the new coaching hire after top 10 coach is fired - Check
4) Start over the new coach hire process thus losing your Top 25 team for next year - Check

So excited to see what's next...

All that and we still have to learn our date with the ncaa/arbiter/whatever you call it.

I mean, we had Miller, who was coaching like his entire career depended on it. And would have handled whatever came as he felt responsible for it. It only made sense for him to sleep in the bed that was made under his watch. And he was up for it, like the professional he is. But instead they fired Miller, thinking that would make it all better. Having post-season bans and schollie losses was going to suck, but at least we had a coach, and fittingly the coach responsible.

Now we're still going to have all of that, but also no coach, or a new coach, and who knows what players, and who knows what fan support, and a serious hit to our reputation. We've dropped not just past my fan-goggles to reality, but beyond into worse than we really are territory.

It's a bad time for anyone to hire. Even North Carolina, unarguably a blue blood, had a very short list to choose from. We're not NC and we have pending actions and we have now clearly toxic leadership. It's bad boys. It's just horrendous timing. They took a bad situation and made it so much worse.

It's like they were so afraid to fire Miller that they built this big dragon up in their heads and decided everything bad was because if Miller and if he was gone it would be rainbows and unicorns and Bill Walton would fly down on a pegasus and ESPN would annoint them the best AD/President combo of all time as the ESPYs. And so they fired Miller, thinking it was this magic bullet and didn't think past it even one second past it.

It's just unbelievable.

Who is you all's second favorite team? I think I need a real up and comer program like the women's team, or UA in 1986.

cerec_cat wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:32 am

azgreg wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:23 am

cerec_cat wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:54 am Maybe Steve Kerr is tired of the nba

He's not.

Yeah I know, but I can dream can't I??

We could offer Matta and Kerr dual part-time co-coach positions. They both have back issues, so by splitting time they can both be head coach and both get the rest and relaxation they need.

So we fire Miller, pay him $1.5 million, and our brainless trust of Robbins and Heeke is now more the laughingstock of college sports than before. The incompetence is incredible.

Could have kept Miller, had a top 25 team coming back, and if the team imploded, or if the IARP dropped the hammer, we could have let Miller go clean, owe him no money, and taken time on a search. And upside to this plan? We could have had a team that was likely to reach the Sweet 16, and if the IARP came back with a 1-year ban and probation, that would basically be time served, and we could extend Miller with a clean conscious.

The reality is, the candidates still available for the job just don't live up to Miller's resume. Lloyd, Simon, and Brase are career assistants, some of whom should have never even been interviewed. Damon at least has "credentials," but it's not like he's been super impressive at Pacific, though the program is in better shape then when he got there. I wish Damon would have taken the Howland route of NAU to Pitt, then to a top tier program like UCLA, but Damon may be out best option today.

Someone posted a list on FB of successful NCAA basketball coaches. Very few were alumni.

Lute and Miller never went to the UA obviously.

I would rather hire a coach who amassed a .500 record at a place (city) that no one would want to be than a coach with a .000 record as a head coach. I really just don't get why people support hiring a career assistant in a minor conference. Yes, even though he is at the best school in that minor conference.

If Damon field a competitive team at a place like Stockton, I would think he should be able to do better here. And we really should not expect to be able to hire a coach with anywhere near the abilities or record of Sean Miller. The goal right now should just be to not sink too far into mediocrity.

Merkin wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:05 am Someone posted a list on FB of successful NCAA basketball coaches. Very few were alumni.

Lute and Miller never went to the UA obviously.

IMO, it's very hard to be a successful NCAA coach. There's a pretty short list of people who do it well, and most of them are locked down pretty tight at their school.

So, you take an already short list and then, if you cross reference it to alums, the chances drop pretty close to zero.

In memory, here are successful alums I can think of.

UNC--Roy
Texas--Beard (I'm putting him here bc he's a good coach, but he's obviously 0-0 for the Horns)
Michigan--Juwan

And um, that's basically it for major programs and successful alums. Maybe Jamie Dixon at TCU?

Then there are your Matt Dohertys and Patruck Ewings, where things get really awkward when the school starts looking to shitcan an alum who's failing.

BBQ wildcat wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:10 am I would rather hire a coach who amassed a .500 record at a place (city) that no one would want to be than a coach with a .000 record as a head coach. I really just don't get why people support hiring a career assistant in a minor conference. Yes, even though he is at the best school in that minor conference.

If Damon field a competitive team at a place like Stockton, I would think he should be able to do better here. And we really should not expect to be able to hire a coach with anywhere near the abilities or record of Sean Miller. The goal right now should just be to not sink too far into mediocrity.

If in 5 years at a school, even like pacific, you can't even sniff an NCAA bid, you have absolutely not shown you can handle a job like Arizona. The only Arizona alum that wouldn't be a disaster of a hire is Kerr.

Spaceman Spiff wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:15 am

Merkin wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:05 am Someone posted a list on FB of successful NCAA basketball coaches. Very few were alumni.

Lute and Miller never went to the UA obviously.

IMO, it's very hard to be a successful NCAA coach. There's a pretty short list of people who do it well, and most of them are locked down pretty tight at their school.

So, you take an already short list and then, if you cross reference it to alums, the chances drop pretty close to zero.

In memory, here are successful alums I can think of.

UNC--Roy
Texas--Beard (I'm putting him here bc he's a good coach, but he's obviously 0-0 for the Horns)
Michigan--Juwan

And um, that's basically it for major programs and successful alums. Maybe Jamie Dixon at TCU?

Then there are your Matt Dohertys and Patruck Ewings, where things get really awkward when the school starts looking to shitcan an alum who's failing.

Further more, Juwan and Beard have coached a combined 2 years at the alma mater's so if they are a success or not is pretty up in the air still and Roy was one of the top 5 coaches in the country before going to UNC so him succeeding there was not really going out on a limb or settling for an alumni, it was we only got this guy because he was an alumni.

I wouldn't say Pacific was all the competitive while Damon was coach. Never lost to Gonzaga by less than double digits, while most were blowouts. Lost by 46 the past season. And yes, Gonzaga is Gonzaga, and never not ranked when playing Pacific.

0-10 v. Gonzaga
3-7 v. Santa Clara.
1-9 v. St. Mary's
4-6 v. Loyota Marymount
8-3 v. Pepperdine
2-8 v. USF
9-1 v. Portland

and so on.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sc ... -head.html

Merkin wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:25 am I wouldn't say Pacific was all the competitive while Damon was coach. Never lost to Gonzaga by less than double digits, while most were blowouts. Lost by 46 the past season. And yes, Gonzaga is Gonzaga, and never not ranked when playing Pacific.

0-10 v. Gonzaga
3-7 v. Santa Clara.
1-9 v. St. Mary's
4-6 v. Loyota Marymount
8-3 v. Pepperdine
2-8 v. USF
9-1 v. Portland

and so on.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sc ... -head.html

I don't mean to be a dick to Damon, but here's how I see it.

He may not be bad at Pacific, but for an alleged top ten program, you should be looking at midmajor coaches that have succeded much more than he has. He's got one season above .500 in which Pacific would not have made the tourney unless they took out Gonzaga and won the WCC tourney. Everything else is .500 or under.

You get a chance to make the jump to high major when you do more with less. The midmajor coaches that merit consideration for big time jobs are making signifcant tourney runs, and we're talking a guy who's never made a tourney.

Yes, Arizona has more resources, but it also has more competition. Pacific's conference wins this year were Portland, Santa Clara, Loyola Marymount, San Diego and San Francisco. Their season ended when Santa Clara beat them in the WCC tourney. Those schools are rentawins at Arizona, and if Santa Clara beats you, your job might be in jeopardy.

Seriously floating/putting forward Damon should mean two people lose their jobs.

gronk4heisman wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:19 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:15 am

Merkin wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:05 am Someone posted a list on FB of successful NCAA basketball coaches. Very few were alumni.

Lute and Miller never went to the UA obviously.

IMO, it's very hard to be a successful NCAA coach. There's a pretty short list of people who do it well, and most of them are locked down pretty tight at their school.

So, you take an already short list and then, if you cross reference it to alums, the chances drop pretty close to zero.

In memory, here are successful alums I can think of.

UNC--Roy
Texas--Beard (I'm putting him here bc he's a good coach, but he's obviously 0-0 for the Horns)
Michigan--Juwan

And um, that's basically it for major programs and successful alums. Maybe Jamie Dixon at TCU?

Then there are your Matt Dohertys and Patruck Ewings, where things get really awkward when the school starts looking to shitcan an alum who's failing.

Further more, Juwan and Beard have coached a combined 2 years at the alma mater's so if they are a success or not is pretty up in the air still and Roy was one of the top 5 coaches in the country before going to UNC so him succeeding there was not really going out on a limb or settling for an alumni, it was we only got this guy because he was an alumni.

I agree totally on Roy. That was just blind luck for UNC.

Beard killed it at TTU, so I'm including him, but I see your point. I also wonder a little how he'll do in the dysfunctional kingdom of the Horns.

I think Juwan's been as successful as someone can reasonably be in 2 years. Had them in the top 5 both years, went to the Elite Eight as a 1 seed this year, has the #1 recruiting class coming in...it's only 2 years, but it's pretty impressive.

Juwan has so much money behind him it's sick. Nothing like what Arizona boosters would be willing to do.

Damon took a poor Pacific team and made them respectable. Not great, but certainly an improvement in the past few years. Damon has earned the right to move on to a better job, but all the way from Stockton to Tucson? If Damon were not an alum, would we even consider him with his record? No. But who out there is better?

Lloyd has a bigger upside, but hasn't been a head coach at a school ever. Almost everyone who has ever held a new job has some on-the-job training. It's one thing if Fisch loses a game and we finish 3-9 instead of 4-8 next year. Big effing deal. If he learns from it and improves and we win 6 games with a minor bowl game in year 2, then who cares. But a guy like Lloyd loses a game or two next year, assuming we hire him, then it could be the difference between the NCAA and the NIT. And the difference between landing a top recruit or not.

Pope at BYU isn't a bad candidate, but not a great one either. Better than Damon, but not by much, and has the credentials that Lloyd doesn't. Bet everyone on the list elicits a big, "Meh," and everyone on the list sure looks like a downgrade over Miller, at least on paper.

AzCatFan2 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:24 am Damon took a poor Pacific team and made them respectable. Not great, but certainly an improvement in the past few years. Damon has earned the right to move on to a better job, but all the way from Stockton to Tucson? If Damon were not an alum, would we even consider him with his record? No. But who out there is better?

Lloyd has a bigger upside, but hasn't been a head coach at a school ever. Almost everyone who has ever held a new job has some on-the-job training. It's one thing if Fisch loses a game and we finish 3-9 instead of 4-8 next year. Big effing deal. If he learns from it and improves and we win 6 games with a minor bowl game in year 2, then who cares. But a guy like Lloyd loses a game or two next year, assuming we hire him, then it could be the difference between the NCAA and the NIT. And the difference between landing a top recruit or not.

Pope at BYU isn't a bad candidate, but not a great one either. Better than Damon, but not by much, and has the credentials that Lloyd doesn't. Bet everyone on the list elicits a big, "Meh," and everyone on the list sure looks like a downgrade over Miller, at least on paper.

All valid points. But before you fire Miller, you ask yourself:

Would you take Damon over Miller at Arizona? Yes or No?
Would you take Lloyd over Miller at Arizona? Yes or No?
Would you take Pope over Miller at Arizona? Yes or No?

If you answer yes to any of those questions, you make the hire. Now.
If the answer is no, you punch yourself in the dick and ask yourself why the fuck you fired Miller if you didn't have a better option that you knew would accept the job.

I don't think we know if Lloyd has a bigger upside. Or even if he has any upside from where he's at. If we shouldn't look at Damon, who HAS been a head coach, I really don't think we should look at someone who has NEVER been a head coach. Just goes to show how fucked up this whole thing has been, ever since Miller was fired without cause.

I wouldn't take any of the names that have been floated over Miller.

zonagrad wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:35 am

AzCatFan2 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:24 am Damon took a poor Pacific team and made them respectable. Not great, but certainly an improvement in the past few years. Damon has earned the right to move on to a better job, but all the way from Stockton to Tucson? If Damon were not an alum, would we even consider him with his record? No. But who out there is better?

Lloyd has a bigger upside, but hasn't been a head coach at a school ever. Almost everyone who has ever held a new job has some on-the-job training. It's one thing if Fisch loses a game and we finish 3-9 instead of 4-8 next year. Big effing deal. If he learns from it and improves and we win 6 games with a minor bowl game in year 2, then who cares. But a guy like Lloyd loses a game or two next year, assuming we hire him, then it could be the difference between the NCAA and the NIT. And the difference between landing a top recruit or not.

Pope at BYU isn't a bad candidate, but not a great one either. Better than Damon, but not by much, and has the credentials that Lloyd doesn't. Bet everyone on the list elicits a big, "Meh," and everyone on the list sure looks like a downgrade over Miller, at least on paper.

All valid points. But before you fire Miller, you ask yourself:

Would you take Damon over Miller at Arizona? Yes or No?
Would you take Lloyd over Miller at Arizona? Yes or No?
Would you take Pope over Miller at Arizona? Yes or No?

If you answer yes to any of those questions, you make the hire. Now.
If the answer is no, you punch yourself in the dick and ask yourself why the fuck you fired Miller if you didn't have a better option that you knew would accept the job.

I would say if you answer yes to any of those questions, you should turn in your letter of resignation immediately because your too stupid to be in charge of a little league team, much less a P5 school.

And I'm not even that big of a Miller fan.

Roz is already in Town. He will play nice with Hansen. He has AZ ties. He has been a HC.

BBQ wildcat wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:37 am I don't think we know if Lloyd has a bigger upside. Or even if he has any upside from where he's at. If we shouldn't look at Damon, who HAS been a head coach, I really don't think we should look at someone who has NEVER been a head coach. Just goes to show how fucked up this whole thing has been, ever since Miller was fired without cause.

I wouldn't take any of the names that have been floated over Miller.

I think I said this the other day, but I see it like this. Lloyd hasn't demonstrated he can be a good HC, but he also hasn't shown he can't be a good HC. Thus, he still has an argument about his potential.

Guys like Damon and Pastner have had their shots and so far they've showed they can't be particularly good HC's. I mean, it could always change, but that's what you're betting on, a change.

The mind boggling part is that Robbins fired a guy who had shown he could be a very good HC to put Arizona into the position where these are the choices.

Yeah. No brainer. Even in a vacuum. Let's say you're Abilene Christian and you can have either Miller or any of these guys. I'm taking Miller.

But if you're Arizona, with the RIAA (I keep blanking on the name of the damn arbitration panel, so I'm just going to use various acronyms from now on) pending, and Miller already under contract, and having to pay to break it because you can't show cause, and his players already bought in, and the fans mostly supporting him, and your administration already having backed him for 3 years, and the NoA actually in a way, supporting your defense of Miller, at least in regards to the biggest allegation in the court of public opinion, the totally false schlabach esp slander piece about Ayton...it's a million times a no brainier to keep Miller, see it through, hire a PR firm to clear the record, double down, and ride it out.

Know when to hold em, know when to fold em. We didn't fold early enough and we didn't hold when it was almost over.

I feel like a repeat record. Sorry. But I agree none of these names are better than Miller at a new school in a vacuum, even with the shadow over Miller. And definitely not at Arizona given all the circumstances.

If we got paid 1.5 million I guess I'd at least see that aspect to it. But no, we paid to do this. We paid millions of dollars to be in a worse situation.

Is Heeke an ASU fan?

Lloyd is Schroedingers Coach

Postmaster wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:14 pm Lloyd is Schroedingers Coach

Now this is elevating the dialogue. Kudos.

I would classify him more of a Rorschach Test, myself. His resume allows the viewer to see what they want. Some see tremendous untapped potential. Others see us giving a top ten job to a guy with no experience who could wind up being nothing away from Mark Few.

If you see something sexual, that's a level of issues I don't feel good opining on.

This process is like electro shock therapy.

I find it interesting that Lloyd has not said anything publicly to discourage speculation about him being a candidate for the UofA job. Could it be that he has been offered the job but is sitting on it for a bit -- perhaps waiting to see if Gonzaga sweetens the pot for him?

just my two bits . . .

Does anyone know what is actually going on even at a high level. I haven't seen Choo or 97 chime in, in a few days. I.e. is Lloyd still in the picture? Did the interview not go well? Did the alumni/boosters start making themselves heard?

This is my room 101 from Orwell's 1984.

Postmaster wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:24 pm This process is like electro shock therapy.

Maybe we offered Few, and this was all a big 4d chess to make Gonzaga fans happy about having Lloyd as their new head coach.

Scheer says all hands on deck. I’m nervous

Lloyd could be the next Roy Williams. Could be the next Matt Doherty. He's a top assistant, but that doesn't always translate to the big chair. And going from assistant to head coach at Arizona is akin to giving a 16-year old keys to a Ferrari on his birthday. Technically, he may know how to dive it, but the chances for a crash and burn are much higher with a Ferrari than a Honda Civic. It's why programs like Arizona or Kentucky don't hire Head Coaches who have never run their own program before.

Damon has a better upside than Pastner. Josh has coached at a high mid-major in Memphis and at a P5 school at GTech, both have whom have solid basketball reputations with Final Four appearances. In 12 years, Josh has never made it to the second weekend of the tournament. Sure, Damon has never made a tournament, but Damon is handcuffed at a small school in Stockton, that has to compete against Gonzaga and BYU, which a tiny budget and a campus that won't impress anyone. I'd love to see first what Damon could do a school like Memphis or GTech, where you you can make the tournament. Maybe Mighty Mouse is the next big coach, but again, my preference would be have him go on a deep run at a mid-major or non-traditional P5 basketball power first.

But given the list of potential candidates, and pitting them against Miller, I'd take Miller every time. The only name that would give Miller a run was Muss, but we swung and missed there. Maybe when this is all said and done, Robbins and Heeke can write a self-help book for university Presidents and ADs titled, "Everything You Shouldn't Do When Conducting a Coaching Search."

Scheer just said it's in "the final stretch." Think we'll have news soon.

The thing I've taken most out of this whole process, is that how dare they name themselves Pacific while being located in Stockton. What a tease that is. You hear Pacific without knowing and you think Pepperdine lite. The audacity.

Beachcat97 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:00 pm Scheer just said it's in "the final stretch." Think we'll have news soon.

Can't wait. Should be a great hire way beyond the level of Sean Miller and Eric Musselman *sarcasm*

Beachcat97 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:00 pm Scheer just said it's in "the final stretch." Think we'll have news soon.

Didn't he just say it was restarting this morning?

Reggie Theus come on down!!

My buddy is saying Lloyd. We’ll see

Maybe he means the final stretch of how much we can take of this before a full scale revolt?

Incoming

Longhorned wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:10 pmIncoming

They waited for the stock market to close.

The fan base had to be near capitulation before they could announce a hire that isn’t a press conference winning guy. Now we all go whew, he is not so bad

azpatnca wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:11 pm

Longhorned wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:10 pmIncoming

They waited for the stock market to close.

Dolph Schayes.

I just like saying that name...

We're about to be disappointed aren't we? It's going to pastner isn't it

Michael Jordan when he had the Hitler mustache

No clue if this guy knows anything. He's also calling Wes Miller to Cincinnati.