Bear Down Wildcats

We are getting a top 20 guy thats pretty much a composite #3-5 point guard in the country. Hes considered one of the most talented players in a loaded class, hes a McDonalds All American. Is he TJ? No. There is a reason TJ was so special, there are very few point guards like him these days. Is there going to be a learning curve? Of course. Thats Miller's job, to take a point/combo who is still trying to learn and develop to play that position at college and later in the NBA. Its in Simmons best interest to learn how to play the point like it needs to be played, and everyone in the world is telling him that.

What we are getting at that position that we dont have: size (PJC), NBA level quickness and athletecism (both), excellent ball handling (both), big playmaking ability(both), huge defensive potential due to size/quickness (PJC). Word is, when he is motivated he is an excellent passer and has excellent court vision. Hes reportedly got a very nice midrange game and can get to the lane at will. Will he pass, facilitate and defend? Honestly, PJC and Kadeem will not be super tough to beat in these departments, especially if you factor in their deficiencies. Thats Millers job and hopefully he buys in. But he has the tools at that position that we dont have and if tapped, even to a slight degree, i dont see no reason he isnt our starting point guard. Hes gonna find out very quickly that if he wants big minutes, hes going to need to get them at the 1 because he have plenty of guys who can play the 2. And the kid seems like he has a desire to win, see his recruitment of Alkins, Ferguson and Jackson to come play with him here. Those are guys who will eat minutes for each other and/or at the 2, if he doesnt want to play the 1.

97cats wrote:

WildcatLouis wrote: That comment is amazing. The fact that all these college athletes have "handlers" is insane. Do PJC's handlers believe that a 5'7" PG has NBA potential that Miller would be impacting by recruiting other players? (I know he is listed at 5'11", but there's now way that is true.)

it was just a mistake, Arizona shoulda taken Thornton regardless

WildcatLouis wrote:97, I have always thought that Miller gave a longer leash to York

his junior and senior seasons there is no question about it

WildcatLouis wrote:Maybe it's just me

its not just you

WildcatLouis wrote:the past couple of years I have felt that York was handled differently than other players.

cause he was

Why was Gabe given that long a leash? I do not like special treatment or coddling players because they and their "handlers" are in denial about your actual skills as a basketball player.

97, do you think this is something that will continue? Will certain players be given special treatment? Let the best players play!

Lute would have given York the Shakur treatment. Gabe would start looking over at the bench with his sad puppy dog eyes to see if Lute would pull him after a bonehead play.

Looking back at this season, is it any surprise Gabe got that treatment? When we were really good, very frequently it was due to Gabe. Ive said this multiple times, but this team was only as good as how Gabe played. Add to the fact he is a four year guy in times where almost nobody with any talent stays here four years and he knows the system and want Miller wants. You have to trust those guys and stick w them sometimes, even if it kills you at times. And yea, most coaches have favorites. I cant think of a single exception of any coach in all of my days playing sports. Its easy to see why Miller was loyal to Gabe and he had more leash. Millers had favorites on every team. Sometimes its a star like TJ, sometimes its not. And at the end of the day, opponents were paying a LOT of attention and focus on York. Hes a guy many coaches circled in film and said, we can not let this guy beat us.

I could almost stomach coddling York if it helped with his AAU team, but obviously that's not remotely the case, so I can't stomach the thought that we coddled a spot up 3 point shooter. Wtf was the purpose of doing so?

ChooChooCat wrote:I could almost stomach coddling York if it helped with his AAU team, but obviously that's not remotely the case, so I can't stomach the thought that we coddled a spot up 3 point shooter. Wtf was the purpose of doing so?

This year, I don't know if we had much choice. York and Trier were our only perimeter scorers, and Trier was injured for a while. I'd think part of the longer leash is that we needed someone who could put up perimeter points. Gabe was one of two people who could do that and was the only one for long stretches of the year.

I think we wound up having to live with certain things (high shot volume, Gabe running the p + r a lot) just because with Trier down and Ray down all year, we didn't have another guy who could threaten the D from outside. Kadeem, PJC, Simon and Pitts (when he played) were lucky if they got into double digits, and never were going to really put pressure on the D.

Gabe was "coddled" one year. You guys all played with the 2nd baseman with a weenie arm who couldnt hit, but still hit in the 2 hole right? Or the kid who couldnt play to save his ass but was a good free throw shooter and somehow was the 2nd guy off the bench? Or the receiver with decent hands but could never get any separation who found his way into most passing formations and still only get a catch or two a game? Coaches have their roll dogs and favorites, and when this team is comprised of gabe, zeus, and the rest pretty much guys who have been on campus a year or two, who do u think that guy is gonna be? Especially when Zeus missed so much time.

Think of all the one and two and dones for Miller at Arizona. Three year and bounce guys like Bash and NJ, the number of guys retained when he took over, the number of transfers and one year rent a players. How many four year guys has Miller had? Zeus, Gabe, Solo, and two career role players in Parrom and Mayes. You are loyal to the guys who are loyal to you in a world where it rarely happens. Its human nature and completely normal for just about every coach.

Basides, at the beginning of the year almost all of us were picking him to be the alpha and/or wondering if he could fill that role

Can definitely argue he was coddled last year when he was questionably starting over Rondae at the beginning of the year. In fact I'd put hard money on that being exactly the case.

rgdeuce wrote:We are getting a top 20 guy thats pretty much a composite #3-5 point guard in the country. Hes considered one of the most talented players in a loaded class, hes a McDonalds All American. Is he TJ? No. There is a reason TJ was so special, there are very few point guards like him these days. Is there going to be a learning curve? Of course. Thats Miller's job, to take a point/combo who is still trying to learn and develop to play that position at college and later in the NBA. Its in Simmons best interest to learn how to play the point like it needs to be played, and everyone in the world is telling him that.

What we are getting at that position that we dont have: size (PJC), NBA level quickness and athletecism (both), excellent ball handling (both), big playmaking ability(both), huge defensive potential due to size/quickness (PJC). Word is, when he is motivated he is an excellent passer and has excellent court vision. Hes reportedly got a very nice midrange game and can get to the lane at will. Will he pass, facilitate and defend? Honestly, PJC and Kadeem will not be super tough to beat in these departments, especially if you factor in their deficiencies. Thats Millers job and hopefully he buys in. But he has the tools at that position that we dont have and if tapped, even to a slight degree, i dont see no reason he isnt our starting point guard. Hes gonna find out very quickly that if he wants big minutes, hes going to need to get them at the 1 because he have plenty of guys who can play the 2. And the kid seems like he has a desire to win, see his recruitment of Alkins, Ferguson and Jackson to come play with him here. Those are guys who will eat minutes for each other and/or at the 2, if he doesnt want to play the 1.

There have never been many PG like TJ; Lute never had one. You might argue Kerr, but he was a completely different player. I would say Staf was the closest thin we had to a 'true' point guard, even if he did not turn out the way we hoped he would.

Lute consistently had scoring point guards who played their role effectively, he never had a Stockton, Kidd, or even a TJ type.

Harvey Specter wrote: There have never been many PG like TJ; Lute never had one. You might argue Kerr, but he was a completely different player. I would say Staf was the closest thin we had to a 'true' point guard, even if he did not turn out the way we hoped he would.

Lute consistently had scoring point guards who played their role effectively, he never had a Stockton, Kidd, or even a TJ type.

Matt Othick

Othick never developed his PG skills much while at Arizona and should never be put in the same category as Kerr or TJ.

catgrad97 wrote:Othick never developed his PG skills much while at Arizona and should never be put in the same category as Kerr or TJ.

I think you need put the pipe down. He did play briefly in the NBA as a PG. 3 year starter at that position for Lute. Not sure if you're remembering things strait

We would have been significantly better with a jr or sr Othick leading this team.

We didn't lack a superstar, we lacked a leader.

Sure could have used TJ this year!

It's a guards game now and days, but Josiah Turner going down in flames really set the program back a couple of years in that regard. That led to seeking transfers go fill the gaping hole left by him. If he played to the level of his national ranking (and no off the court issues) him and NJ would've been an incredible tandem together.

On the true point guard topic, when's the last time a true PG like the ones of yesteryear won? It seems it's like one of those positions like a throwback C (Shaq, Olajuwon, Ewing, Mutumbo etc) who have gone extinct. If they do they don't tend to be the skilled, talented and undersized/unathletic, seems like it's trying to find a diamond in the rough if you truly want one.

Kansas: Brandon Rush, Mario Chalmers, Sherron Collins

UNC: Ty Lawson, Wayne Ellington

Duke: Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith

UConn: Kemba Walker, Jeremy Lamb

Kentucky: Marquis Teague, Doron Lamb, Darius Miller (they finally had knockdown shooters)

Louisville: Russ Smith, Peyton Siva

UConn: Shabazz Napier, Ryan Boatright

Duke: Tyus Jones, Quinn Cook

UCLA made 3 straight F4s in which they had: Jordan Farmar, Darren Collision, Aaron Afflalo, Russell Westbrook during that span.

Memphis had Derrick Rose, Chris Douglas-Roberts

The game has changed, we don't necessarily need a "true point guard," a good on-ball player and ball handler who can drive and score is fine.

I loved TJ, but I subscribe to the idea that eventually you hit a critical mass and better talent/athleticism/skill wins - sometimes you need 3-4 years for that talent to develop. And when it does it's so much better than an upperclassmen transfer who started in a lower level for various reasons (Allen, Lyons, TJ, etc) and has had fewer time to develop under the system - and who have peaked or plateaued.

Alieberman wrote:We would have been significantly better jr or sr Othick leading this team.

We didn't lack a superstar, we lacked a leader.

Wait a minute, maybe everyone's definition of a superstar is different but to me the last superstars Arizona has had are Derrick Williams & Jerryd Bayless. A superstars to me is an impact player who can take over and singlehandedly win a game if need be.

Bayless, averaged 19.7 ppg (still the most since then, DWill is at 19.3, Budinger 18, J Hill 18.3).

Maybe I shouldn't have said superstar... I meant an elite athlete.

whatisee wrote:

catgrad97 wrote:Othick never developed his PG skills much while at Arizona and should never be put in the same category as Kerr or TJ.

I think you need put the pipe down. He did play briefly in the NBA as a PG. 3 year starter at that position for Lute. Not sure if you're remembering things strait

Othick's cup of coffee in the league was all due to Tarkanian being then HC of the Spurs, and remembering when he lost Matt to "Midnight Lute" while HC at UNLV.

Othick averaged 4.3 A/PG while at Arizona, and 5.2 A/PG as a senior.

Contrast that to Shakur, who averaged 6.9 A/PG as a senior, and 5.1 for his UA career.

Who else has come close to Shakur's A/PG until McConnell?

Merkin wrote:

whatisee wrote:

catgrad97 wrote:Othick never developed his PG skills much while at Arizona and should never be put in the same category as Kerr or TJ.

I think you need put the pipe down. He did play briefly in the NBA as a PG. 3 year starter at that position for Lute. Not sure if you're remembering things strait

Othick's cup of coffee in the league was all due to Tarkanian being then HC of the Spurs, and remembering when he lost Matt to "Midnight Lute" while HC at UNLV.

Othick averaged 4.3 A/PG while at Arizona, and 5.2 A/PG as a senior.

Contrast that to Shakur, who averaged 6.9 A/PG as a senior, and 5.1 for his UA career.

Who else has come close to Shakur's A/PG until McConnell?

Contrast to what? They were different players with different teams and needs. This argument is silly. Go ask Lute if Matt was a top rate PG. I imagine he would laugh in your face

Othick shared much of those duties first with Muehlbach and then with Damon. I don't think much of him either as a true PG but he was definitely better than what we got this year

ChooChooCat wrote:Can definitely argue he was coddled last year when he was questionably starting over Rondae at the beginning of the year. In fact I'd put hard money on that being exactly the case.

It was for balance purposes. That team needed outside shooting and it can be problematic when both of your wings have to score the same way. Neither of those guys would take a jumpshot until AG got some confidence back in the real late season. We all saw it. Miller liked RHJs energy off the bench too and said as much.

Why don't we start recruiting some of these mid major type point guards (pure pass fast point guards) and let miller work his magic for a full 4 years.

you know they'll get the team concept, honor the process, and won't bail for the chance at a cup of coffee in the league.

Like when the homely girl loses the baby weight and you're her first boyfriend...the gettings are good.

NYCat wrote:It's a guards game now and days, but Josiah Turner going down in flames really set the program back a couple of years in that regard. That led to seeking transfers go fill the gaping hole left by him. If he played to the level of his national ranking (and no off the court issues) him and NJ would've been an incredible tandem together.

Alieberman wrote:We would have been significantly better jr or sr Othick leading this team.

We didn't lack a superstar, we lacked a leader.

Wait a minute, maybe everyone's definition of a superstar is different but to me the last superstars Arizona has had are Derrick Williams & Jerryd Bayless. A superstars to me is an impact player who can take over and singlehandedly win a game if need be.

Bayless, averaged 19.7 ppg (still the most since then, DWill is at 19.3, Budinger 18, J Hill 18.3).

I think everyone underestimates how badly Josiah Turner hurt us long term, and Mark Lyons (who gets a lot of shit here) was the best band-aid we'd ever had. Same with Bayless, he carried the entire team to the tourney, whereas Trier was sorta useful.

That Kyle Fogg team that missed the tourney because Josiah brain farted at ASU would make the S16 this year.

CalStateTempe wrote:Why don't we start recruiting some of these mid major type point guards (pure pass fast point guards) and let miller work his magic for a full 4 years.

you know they'll get the team concept, honor the process, and won't bail for the chance at a cup of coffee in the league.

Like when the homely girl loses the baby weight and you're her first boyfriend...the gettings are good.

So basically recruit the leftovers? Or stick with the short white boys that are outside the ESPN top 100? Lol. I dont know man, think you have much better odds doing what we have been doing and/or going after the top guys. Id rather take the odds on the top 50 guys and run the risk of them bouncing early than trying to think outside the box that any of the top 20 programs dont want/take and hope for a Van Fleet. Simons gonna be a four year guy and his upside is way higher than any of your typical mid major guys.

I think the thing that has caught up to Miller, outside of the Turner thing, is going for combo guards/size rather than pure points. But then again, Thats what PJC is and hes a 3rd year guy we still have big concerns about. Before his bail out, and outside of flashes at times, Turner was a pure point that wasnt what we expected either. Shakur (before Miller) was a top 3 point in a loaded PG class and he wasnt as good as we expected. Miller clearly has a style, versatility and size is HUGE as to what we want to do, but that comes with risks, what we have seen at the point outside of TJ, guards like Simon and Kadeem who cant shoot at all or are average, wings like Rondae and AG who couldnt throw the ball in the ocean from outside a lot of the time, and some bigs who dont want to grind inside (jerret, Bash)

rgdeuce wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:Can definitely argue he was coddled last year when he was questionably starting over Rondae at the beginning of the year. In fact I'd put hard money on that being exactly the case.

It was for balance purposes. That team needed outside shooting and it can be problematic when both of your wings have to score the same way. Neither of those guys would take a jumpshot until AG got some confidence back in the real late season. We all saw it. Miller liked RHJs energy off the bench too and said as much.

That's great and all outside of the fact that this team become a far better team after York went to the bench. Balancing purposes my ass.

Johnson and Rondae does not equal Gordon and Rondae.

Think im gonna side with the multimillionaire/head coach of our favorite team on this one. Sorry.

rgdeuce wrote:Think im gonna side with the multimillionaire/head coach of our favorite team on this one. Sorry.

if coach truly believed that then why change the starting lineup ever exactly?

Because sometimes playing by the book or by theory doesn't always work best. Ideally you want balance. You want a guy who teams have to respect so they don't double Zeus and Bash at will without any repercussions. Im sending my wing down on those guys every time when Rondae and AG are standing out beyond the arc because the chances of them knocking that shot down are low, and as we saw for much of that year, those guys lost all confidence to even shoot it. If they drive, you are already sagging to stop that. The other issue is clogging the paint for them in general. If it wasnt off a drive or an offensive board, neither of them is scoring. And you have two of them on the floor at the same time? Thank you! While Stanley wasnt quite as bad and gunshy as Gordon, he did go through a lengthy stretch where he struggled from deep (IIRC, he shot about 30% in conference play from 3). Still taking those odds w a 30% shooter, especially a guy of Stanley's stature and game.

Ultimately Miller decided to throw that out and go with the best 5. While I agree that was the right move, we all saw how much those teams could struggle offensively and how teams defended us. The long scoreless droughts and the downright forcing it in when it wasnt there grind from those guys. Add to the fact that it took teams a very long time to stop leaving TJ alone, and him to start realizing he needed to take those shots, it made it even worse. The trade off was massive size, massive defense, and massive athletes. A trade off Miller ultimately decided was best after a while of Gabe starting

rgdeuce wrote:Because sometimes playing by the book or by theory doesn't always work best. Ideally you want balance. You want a guy who teams have to respect so they don't double Zeus and Bash at will without any repercussions. Im sending my wing down on those guys every time when Rondae and AG are standing out beyond the arc because the chances of them knocking that shot down are low, and as we saw for much of that year, those guys lost all confidence to even shoot it. If they drive, you are already sagging to stop that. The other issue is clogging the paint for them in general. If it wasnt off a drive or an offensive board, neither of them is scoring. And you have two of them on the floor at the same time? Thank you! While Stanley wasnt quite as bad and gunshy as Gordon, he did go through a lengthy stretch where he struggled from deep (IIRC, he shot about 30% in conference play from 3). Still taking those odds w a 30% shooter, especially a guy of Stanley's stature and game.

Ultimately Miller decided to throw that out and go with the best 5. While I agree that was the right move, we all saw how much those teams could struggle offensively and how teams defended us. The long scoreless droughts and the downright forcing it in when it wasnt there grind from those guys. Add to the fact that it took teams a very long time to stop leaving TJ alone, and him to start realizing he needed to take those shots, it made it even worse. The trade off was massive size, massive defense, and massive athletes. A trade off Miller ultimately decided was best after a while of Gabe starting

There's a benefit from a leader of the reserves too. Rondae was a high energy guy who could come off the bench and immediately lock down anyone on the other team who got off to a hot start and immediately fire up the team.

It made better sense in theory than in practice, so Miller went with the best 5. It doesn't mean there wasn't sense in having Gabe start over Rondae even though everyone knew Rondae was a better player.

Scheer thinks KS may be the answer.

With his size (my guess) KS should be very competitive at point. Sure he's not TJ, looks more like a combo guard...but PJC might have a tough time starting.

Kobi will be starting next year. He's the man, he's got the right attitude for team ball, athleticism, a J...gonna be nice change of pace from this past year. Kadeem can play along side him sometimes and back him up; PJC will strictly back up the point in spot minutes.

Merkin wrote:Scheer thinks KS may be the answer.

It looks like no one told Kobi they were taking the picture.

Kobi isn't a combo guard. I'm not speaking from my opinion grounded in personal expertise, but as a fact. He's a point guard. Period. He's scouted as point guard and recruited as a point guard. He's evaluated as an elite point guard.

If I had to guess, 97cats was comparing him him to the last two Arizona point guards, not saying he's like a 4-year combo guard asked to play the point.

But if there's one thing I'm certain of, the myth that Kobi Simmons isn't a point guard will get repeated over and over again anyway.

Still, Arizona will be led by an elite point guard next season for the first time since Lute Olson was coach, and that isn't a comparison to Shakur (who was misevaluated on mental makeup).

Longhorned wrote:
Still, Arizona will be led by an elite point guard next season for the first time since Lute Olson was coach, and that isn't a comparison to Shakur (who was misevaluated on mental makeup).

Sounds good to me!

Longhorned wrote:Kobi isn't a combo guard. I'm not speaking from my opinion grounded in personal expertise, but as a fact. He's a point guard. Period. He's scouted as point guard and recruited as a point guard. He's evaluated as an elite point guard.

If I had to guess, 97cats was comparing him him to the last two Arizona point guards, not saying he's like a 4-year combo guard asked to play the point.

But if there's one thing I'm certain of, the myth that Kobi Simmons isn't a point guard will get repeated over and over again anyway.

Still, Arizona will be led by an elite point guard next season for the first time since Lute Olson was coach, and that isn't a comparison to Shakur (who was misevaluated on mental makeup).

What's your thoughts of KS as a point guard?

azgreg wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Kobi isn't a combo guard. I'm not speaking from my opinion grounded in personal expertise, but as a fact. He's a point guard. Period. He's scouted as point guard and recruited as a point guard. He's evaluated as an elite point guard.

If I had to guess, 97cats was comparing him him to the last two Arizona point guards, not saying he's like a 4-year combo guard asked to play the point.

But if there's one thing I'm certain of, the myth that Kobi Simmons isn't a point guard will get repeated over and over again anyway.

Still, Arizona will be led by an elite point guard next season for the first time since Lute Olson was coach, and that isn't a comparison to Shakur (who was misevaluated on mental makeup).

What's your thoughts of KS as a point guard?

You mean as a point guard? I'm going to keep saying he's a point guard until people understand he's a point guard. Beyond the fact that Kobi Smith is a point guard, other myths I'll fail to help to dispel even though they aren't true:

- Alkins might not qualify next year
- Miller will be interested in Pitt when Dixon takes the TCU job

Just to be clear, everyone is writing off PJC, right?

Olsondogg wrote:Just to be clear, everyone is writing off PJC, right?

I wonder if he'll be back, but I hope he and his people agree to have him return, compete for his role, and accept a backup role. I think Arizona is better off with him backing up Simmons, with Allen behind Alkins at the 2. But backup point guard obviously won't make or break any team in the country.

" Allen behind Alkins at the 2"

Yes, exactly! At the 2 not at pg.

So Trier is pretty much gone?

The role of the backup PG is to not lose the lead.

Which happened a lot last season, as Ristic and Tollefsen were major drop offs from the starters.

PJC is not an elite defender, passer or shooter, and is the shortest guy in the conference, but he is a serviceable backup PG, similar to Daniel Dillon. Just don't make any mistakes. 2 to 1 A/TO ration, 38% 3 point shooting, those are pretty good backup PG numbers.

Olsondogg wrote:Just to be clear, everyone is writing off PJC, right?

already written off for me long ago -- absolutely an abomination of an idea to have him play any meaningful minutes (certainly never as a starter) at a school like Arizona.

gigantic miss of an evaluation.

Longhorned wrote:

Olsondogg wrote:Just to be clear, everyone is writing off PJC, right?

I wonder if he'll be back, but I hope he and his people agree to have him return, compete for his role, and accept a backup role. I think Arizona is better off with him backing up Simmons, with Allen behind Alkins at the 2. But backup point guard obviously won't make or break any team in the country.

He was meant for the role he played last year.

Longhorned wrote:Kobi isn't a combo guard.

Good, cuz we don't need the fries and drink.

gumby wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Kobi isn't a combo guard.

Good, cuz we don't need the fries and drink.

Am I the only one who gets a craving every time I hear "double-double"?

Any possibility of a transfer PG?

We have Kobi Simmons, Kadeem Allen, and PJC. We're not getting a grad transfer PG who is better than those three.

I think it's time we come to grips with three facts:

1) A TJ McConnell-type will not be running this team next year.
2) TJ McConnell-types are exceedingly rare.
3) You don't need a TJ McConnell type PG to win a championship.

Longhorned wrote:

gumby wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Kobi isn't a combo guard.

Good, cuz we don't need the fries and drink.

Am I the only one who gets a craving every time I hear "double-double"?

Or our shots go In N Out ...

cpt wrote:Any possibility of a transfer PG?

I have no insider knowledge, but Miller said they are bringing in 4 or 5 guys this year. He has 3 on the way, and Jackson would make 4.

That was before Pitts bailed too. If Trier goes pro, and/or PJC/Simon transfer that's even more slots available.

So I imagine CSM is looking to see who is available.

Longhorned wrote:

gumby wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Kobi isn't a combo guard.

Good, cuz we don't need the fries and drink.

Am I the only one who gets a craving every time I hear "double-double"?

No, but when I see double D's................

If we're getting a grad transfer, it will be a big man.