Bear Down Wildcats

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It's seems that Fisch believes we are so devoid of talent, recruiting is currently more important than schemes and systems.

He's probably right.

AV8RCAT wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:03 am It's seems that Fisch believes we are so devoid of talent, recruiting is currently more important than schemes and systems.

He's probably right.

there's nothing enlightening about that. Fisch has even said how important it is we upgrade our talent and everyone on here seems to agree. As far as schemes and systems go I don't care as long as its effective. Just about all of the defenses anymore use some sort of hybrid position. You can call the defense whatever you like but how they line up is pretty much dictated by what the offense is doing. Brown supposedly ran a 3-4 but half the time they lined up in a four man front. So why call it anything? Everyone complained about Casteel's system but it wasn't the system so much as it was the 240 pound defensive lineman he kept recruiting. When you read Nansen's resume and what the sportswriers say, he has coached every position on a defense and a number of them on the O side of the ball as well. Every time that position seemed to get a lot better. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I think he'll do fine calling defensive plays.

Well, its enlightening because his first DC was known for coaching. This one is known more for recruiting.

Look, Coach Brown seems by all accounts to be a good guy and was a decent DC compared to what we've had recently. But he was only available to Jedd Lasso because he got fired by Harbaugh because his defense couldn't beat Ohio St. Guess what happened this year?

AV8RCAT wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:45 pm Well, its enlightening because his first DC was known for coaching. This one is known more for recruiting.

I think you may need to look at hisi resume again.

tgrumpy2 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:32 pm

AV8RCAT wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:45 pm Well, its enlightening because his first DC was known for coaching. This one is known more for recruiting.

I think you may need to look at hisi resume again.

No, no, don't get me wrong. Im not critical of the hire but I don't believe it is his X and O coaching acumen that made him a more attractive candidate than an actual experienced D coordinator and that fits what I think me and you are thinking. The biggest issue is not coaching and play calling, it's substandard talent that just can't and never will be able to perform at a P5 level.

AV8RCAT wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:18 pm

tgrumpy2 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:32 pm

AV8RCAT wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:45 pm Well, its enlightening because his first DC was known for coaching. This one is known more for recruiting.

I think you may need to look at hisi resume again.

No, no, don't get me wrong. Im not critical of the hire but I don't believe it is his X and O coaching acumen that made him a more attractive candidate than an actual experienced D coordinator and that fits what I think me and you are thinking. The biggest issue is not coaching and play calling, it's substandard talent that just can't and never will be able to perform at a P5 level.

Thank you for your clarification. I do agree. I listened to the podcast today and listened to him answer questions. I know talk is cheap but I can't fault anything he said. I like toughness, physical aggression and speed in a defense I'm rooting for.

Until we get a talent upgrade this is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic…

EastCoastCat wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:23 am Until we get a talent upgrade this is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic…

Better talent isn't going to happen overnight and not in one year. It wil be a gradual thing but there is no reason not to expect gradual improvement either. Look what just a few players through the transfer portal along with much better coaching did for our defense this year.

Well I love our gradual improvement just as much as I love going 1-11. They are not mutually exclusive in my book.

Anyways, hoping things get better next but it’s not like I’m going to get too excited if we go 2-10 or 3-9.

AV8RCAT wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:03 am It's seems that Fisch believes we are so devoid of talent, recruiting is currently more important than schemes and systems.

He's probably right.

I think he's totally right. Sumlin left us the least talent on any P5 roster and probably bottom five in all of D1. Not much of any significance can change as long as that's the case.

I was a critic of the Fisch hire and I'm still of the mind he's gone after year 3 or 4. Not sold on his coaching, but the recruiting has been very impressive. He gets it in recruiting and if/when he leaves, we'll be in a far better place than with Sumlin.

Sumlin’s recruiting classes were mid 50’s and low 60’s in his three years. After 2014 RR’s classes were not great either it’s a huge hole to dig out of.

I don’t share Spiff’s pessimism of Fisch and his coaching. If he gets better talent, like he is, his coaching will look much better. I have already heard his 23 class could be spectacular although it’s early and winning more games will be very important

azcat49 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:31 am I don’t share Spiff’s pessimism of Fisch and his coaching. If he gets better talent, like he is, his coaching will look much better. I have already heard his 23 class could be spectacular although it’s early and winning more games will be very important

It's hard for me to be sold after a 1-11 season where we lost to NAU and barely nipped a crippled Cal team.

I'm not saying he can't do it, it's just very difficult for me to be sold at this point. He may well look better with better talent, and our talent was not good, but I can only judge on what I've seen. It's very hard for me to assign anything other than TBD on his coaching skills at this point, and I tend to see that as giving him the benefit of the doubt in light of lacking talent.

Jedd’s coaching (both on gameday and during the week) was not good enough to even have us competitive most weeks. So he’s most likely a mediocre at best coach right now.

I mean, if he was some kind of coaching wunderkind, we would have seen him be able to pull this talentless team to at least a few more victories, right? Whether it was out-scheming the other team or identifying unknown talents in our players, if he was a coaching genius we’d have seen those results.

That’s not to say he can’t learn. But he obviously needs upper level talent to be successful. So good on him understanding that his system and style weren’t going to take a bunch of OKG’s and have them competing for division titles.

Seems like Jedd Lasso has a touch of Sean Miller in that he only has one system and runs that whether he has the players or not (offense wise, on the other side of the ball, it appeared Coach Brown was able to coach them up a bit). If so, he's going to have to outrecruit everyone to win. Looks like this cycle he did a good job at that at least.

Chicat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:10 am I mean, if he was some kind of coaching wunderkind, we would have seen him be able to pull this talentless team to at least a few more victories, right? Whether it was out-scheming the other team or identifying unknown talents in our players, if he was a coaching genius we’d have seen those results.

See, I'm not sure about this, either. Sumlin did leave a roster devoid of talent. Scheming only gets you so far, we were out talented in every game but NAU and maybe Cal. That's partially why I harp on NAU, because it's the one time I can differentiate between talent and coaching.

Not being a genius doesn't mean he's not solid, though. He'd have had to be something special with this roster. He may not be something special, but he could still be good.

To Eebs's point, I forgive Fisch this. Our talent level was so low, it makes more sense to try to establish a system that players can learn. If you play to the strengths of existing players, you get to 2 or maybe, max, 3 wins.

Establishing a system you hope to recruit into is a good decision, IMO. It's not like you worry about squandering a ton of talent with this decision like Sumlin did with Tate.

Spaceman Spiff wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:36 am

Chicat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:10 am I mean, if he was some kind of coaching wunderkind, we would have seen him be able to pull this talentless team to at least a few more victories, right? Whether it was out-scheming the other team or identifying unknown talents in our players, if he was a coaching genius we’d have seen those results.

See, I'm not sure about this, either. Sumlin did leave a roster devoid of talent. Scheming only gets you so far, we were out talented in every game but NAU and maybe Cal. That's partially why I harp on NAU, because it's the one time I can differentiate between talent and coaching.

Not being a genius doesn't mean he's not solid, though. He'd have had to be something special with this roster. He may not be something special, but he could still be good.

Isn’t this basically what I said in the part of my post you didn’t quote? Because it sounds like you think we disagree on his future prospects.

Chicat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:49 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:36 am

Chicat wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:10 am I mean, if he was some kind of coaching wunderkind, we would have seen him be able to pull this talentless team to at least a few more victories, right? Whether it was out-scheming the other team or identifying unknown talents in our players, if he was a coaching genius we’d have seen those results.

See, I'm not sure about this, either. Sumlin did leave a roster devoid of talent. Scheming only gets you so far, we were out talented in every game but NAU and maybe Cal. That's partially why I harp on NAU, because it's the one time I can differentiate between talent and coaching.

Not being a genius doesn't mean he's not solid, though. He'd have had to be something special with this roster. He may not be something special, but he could still be good.

Isn’t this basically what I said in the part of my post you didn’t quote? Because it sounds like you think we disagree on his future prospects.

I'd meant it to flow with my response to Eebs. I doubt he's a genius, but my caveat would be maybe he's more focused on creating a system and culture than immediately showing out.

I'm not sure we really disagree a ton if at all. When I said I'm not sure, I mean that with the lack of talent, I'm not sure if any game but NAU was able to be pulled. I wasn't blown away by his coaching, but some of that could be coaching players into his system instead of coaching them to their strengths.

I just don't know if we'd see the "genuis" emerge if it exists. On our talent level, I could see coaching well and getting our asses kicked.

azcat49 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:31 am Sumlin’s recruiting classes were mid 50’s and low 60’s in his three years. After 2014 RR’s classes were not great either it’s a huge hole to dig out of.

I don’t share Spiff’s pessimism of Fisch and his coaching. If he gets better talent, like he is, his coaching will look much better. I have already heard his 23 class could be spectacular although it’s early and winning more games will be very important

If the '23 class is dependent on winning, I have a feeling it will fall flat but I will not doubt Fisch's offseason ability again. We still lack a ready Pac 12 caliber QB, I do not believe Fifita can step in and lead a team to multiple wins and Plummer and Cruz should be nothing more than backups. We have a horrible OL that didn't add much to this point. If we are able to find two Pac 12 caliber starters in the portal that gives us a shot. I also think the D is going to take a huge step back at least as Nansen gets his feet wet learning to be a defensive coordinator. He will not get much help there from the head coach. We do have some play makers at WR and RB who hopefully can help us score more than 17 a game.

Couple all the above with an absolutely brutal schedule and it does have the recipe for disaster.

Absolutely need another very strong recruiting class and find 3 or 4 wins minimum to show an upward trajectory for the program.

I think you might be a bit to quick to judge the QBs. I don't think any of them are what you'd call All American material but they are capable of starting and doing a very good job if you have good people around them. We seem to be gathering some good ones. I think you might be a bit to fast to condemn the offensive line. Last year there were some weak players but there were a couple of good young ones as well. If you remember by the end of the year we had about 6 linemen still upright and capable of playing and half of them were beat up. That doesn't make for a good OL. We have 7 freshman and 2 sophomores on our OL roster and there is a reason that freshmen normally don't play. Its because they aren't ready. I think one freshman and one sophomore played quite a bit but I think that was due to injuries. Before I pass judgement I'm going to wait and see how some of the kids have developed over the year. I think you're singing doom and gloom way to soon.