Tommy Lloyd

[pc in NM]

If a ANY RECRUIT commits to you and plays 5
min per game his freshman season and then transfers its a fucking whiff.

fify

[TheCat]

Ballo is not a Euro.

Carry on.

I think we established that earlier but why would it be any different for an African? Or American? Hell if you take anytime to develop your a whiff. Winger has his own set of standards and a lot of people might agree but I think some players just need time and DEVELOPMENT.

[Alieberman]

I think it’s fine if people want to point out some possible shortcomings but I love having Tommy as our coach

He has exceeded my expectations and as a 4th year 1st time head coach there is no reason to think he can’t or won’t improve in the years to come

[pc in NM]

I think it’s fine if people want to point out some possible shortcomings but I love having Tommy as our coach

He has exceeded my expectations and as a 4th year 1st time head coach there is no reason to think he can’t or won’t improve in the years to come

+1

[TheCat]

Just to provide an example of moving to America and the difference in the game at least at the pro level.

Jonic averaged 10 points his first year and 2.4 assists. It took him 3 years to average 20 points in a game. Last night was historic for him. Nikola Jokić posts first 30-20-20 game in NBA history. Not college but an example of adjusting and developing and in his case getting in better shape (same as Ballo).

[Postmaster]

Didn't we decide that "Euro " means anyone born outside of the U.S.?

[TheCat]

I think it’s fine if people want to point out some possible shortcomings but I love having Tommy as our coach

He has exceeded my expectations and as a 4th year 1st time head coach there is no reason to think he can’t or won’t improve in the years to come

I suggest you don't read earlier in this thread. I loved Sean but think we have a coach that has a different attitude and demeanor that we can be proud of. This team could have folded early in the season but I think the coaching staff and players knew their potential when SOME of us had lost faith.

I don't know what the future holds and we clearly have some holes to fill and a new landscape to fill them in. Will Arizona be able to fill them? Does it have the same allure as before NIL? Will players priorities development over instant gratification? Have no idea. Neither do the so called experts.

[Merkin]

I think it’s fine if people want to point out some possible shortcomings but I love having Tommy as our coach

He has exceeded my expectations and as a 4th year 1st time head coach there is no reason to think he can’t or won’t improve in the years to come

Same. As just a 4th year head coach he is still learning too and will continue to get better. Even CSM said it was good he had some time off so he could think more about basketball. X has 20 wins so far this season.

[TheCat]

X is on the bubble but think anyone that beats a Hurley should be commended. X lost their best player to the portal last year and are fighting for their tournament lives.

I agree Tommy is still learning and he openly questions himself during news conferences. Not sure many coaches ever do that even though they wonder themselves.

[pc in NM]

Just to provide an example of moving to America and the difference in the game at least at the pro level.

Jonic averaged 10 points his first year and 2.4 assists. It took him 3 years to average 20 points in a game. Last night was historic for him. Nikola Jokić posts first 30-20-20 game in NBA history. Not college but an example of adjusting and developing and in his case getting in better shape (same as Ballo).

Almost ALL big men develop slowly, not just Euros - he was 20 when he came to Denver!

[Postmaster]

It took Ballo about 8 years to develop.

[TucsonClip]

Bal
Boro
Conrad
Paulius

None were good enough to play here. Paulius may be the best of the bunch, but he came in as a 3, couldn't play the 4, and left immediately. Bak was never a good fit for our offense, and he still isn't good enough, sorry.

Boro, like Bal was never a good fit. Conrad is a break glass in case of emergency.

Krivas was good last year, but was totally fine if he moved on. Ballo it was clear we needed to move on despite him producing.

[Fishclamps]

Don't forget about Henri!

[Winger]

Bringing up Jokic is clownish. The best Euros have never played college ball in the US. Using NBA players who never played college ball to justify European collegiate recruiting is simply another ruse to explain away Arizona’s issues.

Ballo for one, wasn’t a Lloyd-at-Arizona recruit. Two, he is neither a Euro nor a “Euro”. And three, was a significantly limited player. Tho to be fair, shouldn’t be labeled as a whiff.

Bal - whiff
Borovicainin - whiff
Murauskas - whiff
Martinez - whiff
Krivas - TBD
Veesaar - not a whiff

That is ugly. Especially when Lloyd is/was considered to be a foreign-player recruiting mensa.

Not going to post it but his track record with transfers isn’t materially better. His track record with prep recruits is juvenile but also is lousy (for a program of Arizona’s caliber) to date. Much of this record was posted pre-NIL as well.

Every coach whiffs on players. Miller was no exception. Even Lute. But Lloyd’s whiff-to-hit percentage to date is concerning. And there is no bigger Tommy Lloyd guy than me. When it comes to Arizona fans I doubt anyone on the planet has more invested in Lloyd than I do. My bias is heavily pro-Lloyd.

Big off season coming up.

[azcat49]

Winger I would love to hear your thoughts on this offseason. I know we don’t know who will leave but I am sure you have some thoughts on what would make a good offseason for CTL

[JMarkJohns]

Pelle Larsson was a Lloyd recruit. Came to Arizona under Lloyd from Utah.

Ballo is international, and a Lloyd recruit vs Gonzaga.

Traditional Transfers historically haven’t been as big an issue. Graduate transfers, starting with Aitken (holy hell) and continuing to Trey haven’t provided the ideal upside to be the priority they are outside of Keldon Johnson, realistically.


Majority of true International recruits have sucked save for a rotational Krivas last year and a fumbled into Veesaar after Krivas was injured and Awaka recruited to be backup to Krivas. Henri was basically recruited over for 2 full cycles.

I think where Winger is coming from is 2-things.

1. Mystery Internationals undercut domestic prep recruiting because it creates a paranoia that he’s going to recruit over you in secret and it highlights a weirdness in not embracing domestic prep recruiting to same levels.
2. They all feel haphazzard. Both in taking and in playing. There’s been almost zero International Playing/Development strategy. Bal, scrub minutes, transfers out, now fringe NBA prospect. Boro, scrub minutes, transfers out. Pauli, scrub minutes, transfers out, now a fringe NBA prospect. Henri, scrub minutes for 1+ years, recruited over multiple times, injury forced usage and he shined, but very little game-play development. Krivas, good role as freshman, TBD what happens. Conrad, scrub minutes multiple years.

It’s not great.

[Postmaster]

Boro played well in FIBA,why wouldn't CTL give him any PT here?

[Postmaster]

I guess there's also a distinction between recruit and transfer.
Ballo, Larrson =transfer.
Boro, Bal, Pauli Mountains Martinez = recruits

[JMarkJohns]

Boro played well in FIBA,why wouldn't CTL give him any PT here?

2 reasons.

1. Tommy is chasing wins every season, because…
2. Tommy is seemingly terrified of honest development of young players.

We still have Carter coming off the bench behind an obviously inferior Trey Townsend.

Tommy struggles to prioritize non-upperclassmen.

He just unfortunately is 50/50 on Transfers being worthy of his faith in like 10 attempts.

[JMarkJohns]

I guess there's also a distinction between recruit and transfer.
Ballo, Larrson =transfer.
Boro, Bal, Pauli Mountains Martinez = recruits

Given that I started a lot of this conversations, my qualified categories are:

Transfers
Traditional Transfer (Larsson, Ball, Bradley, Love, Awaka)
Graduate Transfer (Aitken, Kier, Ramey, Henderson, KJohnson, Townsend)

Recruits
Domestic Prep (Anderson, Boswell, Lewis, Bryant, Stephen)
International (Bal, Boro, Veesaar, Pauli, Krivas, Conrad)

Clearly, as I said, he’s been best with traditional transfers. He should continue utilizing this. For 1-2 prospects per year.

Graduate transfers are mostly role players and not really worth the short-term investment. Maybe if Ramey and Johnson were together on a team like this year, sure, that changes the dynamic. But as they were recruited, most weren’t even 20 mpg players when it mattered.

Internationals have been largely whiffs. Krivas holds potential, Veesaar has realized potential now in year 3. But all failed to register as a starter early, and most failed to have any role year 1 or year 2.

Domestic Preps is a mixed bag. Anderson was a bust, but that’s year 1 desperation. Boswell was a quality prospect with mentality issues. Lewis has done well, but has limitations he’s allowed to play beyond. Carter is awesome and isn’t allowed the same freedom of Boswell or Lewis, which is weird given he’s best of the trio and the most level-headed.

But the upside and positive impact domestic preps needs more focus. Further, intensifying Domestic Prep recruiting aids Traditional Transfers because of prior relationships from earlier recruiting. See Bradley as proof.

Which speaks to the heart of my initial post… more domestic prep, strategic traditional transfer, minimal graduate transfer, and isolated strategic International.

[Postmaster]

I guess there's also a distinction between recruit and transfer.
Ballo, Larrson =transfer.
Boro, Bal, Pauli Mountains Martinez = recruits

Given that I started a lot of this conversations, my qualified categories are:

Transfers
Traditional Transfer (Larsson, Ball, Bradley, Love, Awaka)
Graduate Transfer (Aitken, Kier, Ramey, Henderson, KJohnson, Townsend)

Recruits
Domestic Prep (Anderson, Boswell, Lewis, Bryant, Stephen)
International (Bal, Boro, Veesaar, Pauli, Krivas, Conrad)

Clearly, as I said, he’s been best with traditional transfers. He should continue utilizing this. For 1-2 prospects per year.

Graduate transfers are mostly role players and not really worth the short-term investment. Maybe if Ramey and Johnson were together on a team like this year, sure, that changes the dynamic. But as they were recruited, most weren’t even 20 mpg players when it mattered.

Internationals have been largely whiffs. Krivas holds potential, Veesaar has realized potential now in year 3. But all failed to register as a starter early, and most failed to have any role year 1 or year 2.

Domestic Preps is a mixed bag. Anderson was a bust, but that’s year 1 desperation. Boswell was a quality prospect with mentality issues. Lewis has done well, but has limitations he’s allowed to play beyond. Carter is awesome and isn’t allowed the same freedom of Boswell or Lewis, which is weird given he’s best of the trio and the most level-headed.

But the upside and positive impact domestic preps needs more focus. Further, intensifying Domestic Prep recruiting aids Traditional Transfers because of prior relationships from earlier recruiting. See Bradley as proof.

Which speaks to the heart of my initial post… more domestic prep, strategic traditional transfer, minimal graduate transfer, and isolated strategic International.

Wasn't Anderson a high school POY? Was he a bust or a guy that got no PT or opportunity to develop, got recruited over and left?
I wonder if KJ's wrist has been a big factor this year.

I feel like grad transfers should be guys that fill a hole to complete a high level team. lyons, K Johnson. Or maybe a sharp shooter that can actually get a shot off.

IMO, prep guys either need to be elite or guys who will accept playing a role and be willing to develop (but the coaches need to play them).
Same with transfers. But the staff needs to take guys who weren't good fits at prior school, not guys who are going to keep picking a new school.

I believe we are on same page.

[84Cat]

Anderson is averaging 10 min/game & 3.5 pts/game @ Boise St.
Borovicanin is averaging 22 min/game and 6.1 pts @ New Mexico
Both in the Mountain West.

[Merkin]

Good to have JMJ back!


Paulius averaging 12.8 points, 8 boards, and 31.7% 3PT for #21 27-4 St. Marys which swept Gonzaga.

Scored 30 and 25 on WSU, and 29 on Utah, so not like he is getting all his points against The Sisters of Mercy.

[Winger]

Winger I would love to hear your thoughts on this offseason. I know we don’t know who will leave but I am sure you have some thoughts on what would make a good offseason for CTL

Bottom line = top 10 quality lineup.

Baring a crazy run to end the season this team is going to underperform that standard.

Reason I say this offseason is big is:

1. As Miller’s players have filtered out of the program Lloyd’s teams have got worse. Need to reverse this trend.
2. This season’s roster is full of misevals and misfits. I have posted a ton on why.
3. Relating to 1, Lloyd’s hit-to-miss ratio has not been good.
4. As it stands Arizona’s incoming class is meh or worse.
5. There likely will be a ton of needs.

Relating to 5, I am not sure you can win big with Bradley at the 1, but if you can you need a bunch of shooting/scoring around him. And Arizona as it stands doesn’t have single playable player who can shoot. We don’t have a true power forward (assuming Bryant is gone). Need a couple guards/wings.

How do you see it azcat49?

[JMarkJohns]

Good to have JMJ back!


Paulius averaging 12.8 points, 8 boards, and 31.7% 3PT for #21 27-4 St. Marys which swept Gonzaga.

Scored 30 and 25 on WSU, and 29 on Utah, so not like he is getting all his points against The Sisters of Mercy.

Paulius is a very good prospect and is showcasing very good potential. Lloyd’s failure with Pauli isn’t the eval. It’s that he recruited him at all and never had a role for him. Opted for Keshad Johnson last season. Couldn’t convince Pauli he would be a priority for this season. And lost him and replaced him with yet another short-term player in Trey Townsend.

Graduate Transfers of middling or worse impact cost Arizona Pauli and have effectively handcuffed Carter Bryant.

And for what? A last hurrah in a dying conference with Keshad before a too-early bow out of March (again) and a 3-4-5 place in a middling Big12 with like 2 wins in their 8 or 9 toughest games played.

Haphazzard, seldom a plan, chasing wins with “experience” while under-developing talent.

That’s what we are seeing. Again, not even Henri developed through game play.

[Winger]

Wow did Lloyd just call the dogs off (no fouls) with 45 sec left down 7?

[TheCat]

There wasn't 45 sec left for one.

Kansas will be interesting team also. They are losing 64 of their 83 points scored today to graduation.

The bright side of today's game was low turnovers. Trey had his best game in awhile. JB was aggressive and hopefully helped him realize he can be dominate at times. Tobe was Tobe but was outmatched today. Still a dominate O rebounder.

Downside is we had no answer for Hunter, they were even better on turnovers, KJ had a sub par game. V had a shortened game because of fouls. Couldn't hold the lead we had at the 4.5 minute mark.

[TheCat]

Very proud of the team and their finish in the initial season in the big 12. No one had us finishing this high from coaches to media. Not sure what I expected after losing 80% of our starting lineup but I am impressed with how hard they played in every game. Good job guys.

You know how many teams had a winning road record last year in the big 12? One......we have one this year and their are certain to be 3 and maybe as many as 5 (depending on today's results). Good accomplishment especially the win at BYU.

As I have said months ago I see us as a 6 seed that few will want to play. Think we will be a sweet 16 team and only if we get a little more scoring from the outside. Matchups are key so I want to see those soon.

[Winger]

You’re right it was 30 seconds, my bad. Rage and fury affecting my eyesight.

Normally I like when coaches do this but 45 sec seemed a bit early.

Defensive strategy on HD was a head scratcher for me. Would love to know why Lloyd chose to do what he did.

[Zonawildcat3]

You’re right it was 30 seconds, my bad. Rage and fury affecting my eyesight.

Normally I like when coaches do this but 45 sec seemed a bit early.

Defensive strategy on HD was a head scratcher for me. Would love to know why Lloyd chose to do what he did.

I’m hoping he didn’t wanna show too much for the next game. Only explanation I can think of

[Postmaster]

Good to have JMJ back!


Paulius averaging 12.8 points, 8 boards, and 31.7% 3PT for #21 27-4 St. Marys which swept Gonzaga.

Scored 30 and 25 on WSU, and 29 on Utah, so not like he is getting all his points against The Sisters of Mercy.

Paulius is a very good prospect and is showcasing very good potential. Lloyd’s failure with Pauli isn’t the eval. It’s that he recruited him at all and never had a role for him. Opted for Keshad Johnson last season. Couldn’t convince Pauli he would be a priority for this season. And lost him and replaced him with yet another short-term player in Trey Townsend.

Graduate Transfers of middling or worse impact cost Arizona Pauli and have effectively handcuffed Carter Bryant.

And for what? A last hurrah in a dying conference with Keshad before a too-early bow out of March (again) and a 3-4-5 place in a middling Big12 with like 2 wins in their 8 or 9 toughest games played.

Haphazzard, seldom a plan, chasing wins with “experience” while under-developing talent.

That’s what we are seeing. Again, not even Henri developed through game play.

I thought Keshad was the type of guy AZ needed. It sucks he was a one year guy.
Tougher guy who would rebound along side Ballo. Kind of like what Awaka should be doing.
But like we said earlier, filling a need to round out a roster is different than constantly relying on one year transfers.

[JMarkJohns]

Keshad was only a need because Lloyd chose to chase wins with Love rather than any sort of development.

Multi-years of Keshad would be ideal. Keshad off the bench as a 15-18 mpg hustle 3/D forward.

But Tommy has a young player problem. Fits barely plays them, then lots of regression when they stay, or, lots of transfers out.

That needs to change.

[Winger]

Lloyd said postgame that McKale wasn’t as good a crowd as ISU and Allen/KU.

I was at Duke ISU and Houston and all 3 sounded way louder and the crowd definitely stood more than what I thought I saw today.

Bout the 4th time he has gone to this well and given that we havent been to a F4 in nearly 25 years and he has never been past the S16 despite extremely high seeds, forget the 11 losses and near bagel vs good teams this season, it comes off very poorly to this Arizona fan and season ticket holder.

[JMarkJohns]

My sign for next season

“Hey Tommy!
I’ll cheer my ass off
When you recruit yours off”

[AZCatGirl]

The game against ASU didn't end until 11:30 on a Tuesday night. No shit the crowd was bad postgame. Why did the Big 12 give us such a terrible time for senior day?

[JMarkJohns]

Rookie hazing

[azcat49]

Winger I would love to hear your thoughts on this offseason. I know we don’t know who will leave but I am sure you have some thoughts on what would make a good offseason for CTL

Bottom line = top 10 quality lineup.

Baring a crazy run to end the season this team is going to underperform that standard.

Reason I say this offseason is big is:

1. As Miller’s players have filtered out of the program Lloyd’s teams have got worse. Need to reverse this trend.
2. This season’s roster is full of misevals and misfits. I have posted a ton on why.
3. Relating to 1, Lloyd’s hit-to-miss ratio has not been good.
4. As it stands Arizona’s incoming class is meh or worse.
5. There likely will be a ton of needs.

Relating to 5, I am not sure you can win big with Bradley at the 1, but if you can you need a bunch of shooting/scoring around him. And Arizona as it stands doesn’t have single playable player who can shoot. We don’t have a true power forward (assuming Bryant is gone). Need a couple guards/wings.

How do you see it azcat49?

For one, need a PG. I don’t know if Bradley will stay and so like him but we have no one to back him up or to step up and lead if he goes leave. He looks gassed to me from logging big minutes this year

Need bigger wings. KJ is a good slasher, finisher and passer but he really is a small 2 guard with a sub par perimeter J. IMO Bryant should play more at 3 with a bigger 4 next to him.

Your #1 I absolutely agree with. I have said you used to see 3-4 verifiable NBA guys on our roster. Now (other than Bryant) you see a bunch of guys that are D league/2 way players at best.

I take your #5 as meaning you think a bunch of guys will be on the move so without a doubt he needs to have a top shelf portal year

[JMarkJohns]

I got no issue with Bradley as PG.

I got issues that he’s the only capable facilitator on the team, and flanked by the worst overall wing shooting maybe ever at Arizona. If Carter At PF and Henri at C aren’t hitting 40%, it’s almost impossible to make 10+ threes right now.

If Burries joins, I’m going after a traditional transfer backup PG. Enough with the Conrad experiment. Arizona needs a real PG with Big12 skills and size moving forward. There should always be a second facilitator on the floor. I’m also using a traditional transfer on a 3/D wing. Hoping Carter stays ot Peat joins at PF. And Henri stays as starting C.

After that, Aristode maybe gets some minutes at CF, but will Lloyd give meaningful minutes to a freshman coming off injury?


I’d keep Awaka if an option. He’s not the problem and is used out of position and asked to start isn’t ideal for him. He’s a wrecking ball off the bench, I bet.

I don’t see a role for Krivas. And, frankly, Arizona needs Athleticism up front more than skill.

Will be interesting offseason. I don’t hold much hope, but Burries and Carter are friends, so, that could help to keep Carter.

Bradley, Burries, Bryant, Veesaar is a good starting core.

[Winger]

I take your #5 as meaning you think a bunch of guys will be on the move so without a doubt he needs to have a top shelf portal year

Its always hard for me to forecast. Rumor mill has been wring more than once and its a different world post-NIL.

But, yeah, in addition to not having much currently I anticipate turnover.

Bryant I believe declares. Love and Townsend are out of eligibility. Will Lloyd chase off ADO? Does Arizona lose Bradley Awaka or Lewis to transfer/NIL (feels like there is a legit chance for Lewis but am reading tea leaves there). My gut read on Lloyd is that he will ride Krivas next season, are Veesaar and Awaka cool with that?

[TucsonClip]

Bradley
Carter
Henri

Those are the core 3. Lose any and it hurts. If I have to watch another year of ADO, I swear...

The roster construction is, and has been, laughable. Lloyd has to figure this shit out because the staffs evals have been horrendous.

This is one of my least favorite teams to watch/follow in some time.

[PHXCATS]

I don't get the hate for Lloyd for his comments yesterday

He spoke 100% truth and we just had a hateful and bigoted chant two weeks ago

[Merkin]

What's the speculation on Stephen? I imagine he can't be happy, especially after Lloyd pulled his redshirt and told him he would be part of the rotation at some point. I mean a total of 11 minutes in 5 games?

I was thinking he would go in v. KU when Veesaar and Awaka both had 3 fouls. Dickinson would score on him every time, but then again he scored at will with Veesaar and Awaka guarding him.

Krivas, Veesaar, and Awaka ahead of him next year makes me think he will be the first one gone.

[JMarkJohns]

The chant was awful. That’s not what Tommy is talking about. Kansas fanatics sent death threats to their own players last week. Both fanbases have had woes.

Win, Tommy. You lost all but 1 showcase game at home this year, and that needed a miracle.

Your team is mediocre. Make it better. That’s on coaching and recruiting and development.

Also, realize Saturday Prime Time is vastly different than Tuesday 11:30 pm for Senior Speeches. Also, it’s year 4 and we don’t have a four year player yet. Bring some foundation of consistency.

Lots of accountability to go around.

[JMarkJohns]

What's the speculation on Stephen? I imagine he can't be happy, especially after Lloyd pulled his redshirt and told him he would be part of the rotation at some point. I mean a total of 11 minutes in 5 games?

I was thinking he would go in v. KU when Veesaar and Awaka both had 3 fouls. Dickinson would score on him every time, but then again he scored at will with Veesaar and Awaka guarding him.

Krivas, Veesaar, and Awaka ahead of him next year makes me think he will be the first one gone.

Nobody really knows. Anderson bolting and sucking may stall some of the enticement by other programs for Tommy big man scraps.

But I don’t expect more than 2 of Krivas, Henri, Awaka, Stephen to stay.

If I had to order likelihood:
Henri
Krivas (if Henri is gone)
Awaka (if Krivas is gone)
Stephen (feel like he will get prioritized when he explores his options).

[Merkin]

What happens when you cater to the blue hairs due to their financial resources.

https://www.si.com/college/arizona/bask ... jnyaf9r7v2

"You have to make an adjustment to the atmosphere here. ... The last two places we played are electric. And I'm an Arizona guy, and I love Arizona. But this is not an indictment on our fans. But we've got work to do. There's a gap. There's a gap between Kansas and Iowa State and these game day atmospheres and their fan support."

[azcat49]

Sure sounds like an indictment on our fans LOL

[JMarkJohns]

The elephant in the room is Saturday Primetime is much better and easier to have an fancentric Senior Day than Tuesday 11 pm, 1 am EST.

Being real, it was utter bullshit we got that for our Senior Day. Must change. Easy change to give every program a Saturday Senior Day is making their last weeks consistent in Home Home/Road Road or Road Road/Home Home or Home/Road Road or Road/Home that last week.

No Senior Day should take place later than 6 pm Tip local time and all should be on Saturdays.

[84Cat]

Offical stat keeper in McKale. Tommy's remark are not sitting well with some people

[PHXCATS]

Offical stat keeper in McKale. Tommy's remark are not sitting well with some people

He isnt talking about Tommy's comments

[PHXCATS]

Always drama and it is always starting from the same sources