Bear Down Wildcats

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:08 am**

Macho Grande wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:04 am
Beachcat97 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:22 am
IndianaZonaFan wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:17 am Arizona -12.5
Where are you seeing that?

If that's the actual line, I'll be very surprised.
No way that's the actual line. If that's legit, I'm selling everything I own and taking the points with Illinois.

I'm guessing the line will be Illinois -5 or so.

Even Illinois -5 would surprise me. AZ getting points against an unranked opponent (albeit a good one), given how we've been dismantling the competition, would be a little weird, but then, I know nothing about betting lines.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:10 am**

Chicat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:07 am
Olsondogg wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:59 am
Alieberman wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:47 am I honestly don't understand some of you not wanting to get "too excited" "too early"

If not now, when?

I know full well this is all going to come crashing down. So I am going to enjoy the fuck out of it while it lasts.
I don’t like getting too excited too early and neither does my wife .
But think of all the time you’ll have left in your evening to watch Arizona Basketball.

She likes to watch games with me before we get excited.

She’s awesome

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:17 am**

Spaceman Spiff wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:33 am
First, thanks for the analysis you bring to the board.

My take on Lloyd, he has done a great job fitting defensive scheme to personnel. I do think there's an ongoing question about how he will be fitting future rosters into schemes or how he recruits to fill out his schemes, but for right now, he's fit a system to personnel quite well.

His scheme fits two big assets of this team. First, every starter but Kerr is longer/bigger than average for college. Combining that with being up the line creates a disincentive to aggressively swing the ball, as you're passing into a congested lane clogged by a long, athletic player. It also minimizes closeouts as you note, which was not a strong suit last year. Closeouts will always happen, and I feel like players have improved in that area, but minimizing them helps this roster.

Same with drop and or switching. They're both designed to keep the ball in front of a defender with less influence than hedge and recover. Again, this is well suited for bigger, longer defenders. My only caveat here is I wonder the sustainability vs a team with dynamic and quick scoring guards, which we haven't really seen yet.

Lastly, Koloko is an elite rim protector in the college game. A lot of what Lloyd is doing seems predicated on not needing team efforts to control penetration but instead counting on Koloko to erase things. This again plays to a strength of having an eraser...it's also why I wonder what the future holds when we may not have a elite rim protector.

On the whole it's interesting. I'm intrigued to see how Lloyd handles the developmental aspect of players, since one of the great advantages of this team is all the major guys had significant teaching and playing time when he stepped in. Do Bal, Ballo and Nowell develop to take the places of Mathurin, Koloko and Terry or does Lloyd restructure?

Totally agree with everything you posted here.

Im trying not to worry about the recruiting aspect of things right now, because we know a few things:

1. Lloyd and his staff are going to be selective.
2. They are likely being selective because they want to bring in guys who can fit this style (on both ends).
3. We are still Arizona. That name will carry weight on the trail and get us in the door for the big names and aid Lloyd.

However, as you mention, what does the roster look like after Lloyd brings in his own classes? We know he will likely look for high IQ guys who can read and react, shoot, dribble, pass. But, again, as we both mention, the defensive system is not the same without a guy like Koloko, and to a lesser extent Ballo, to erase shots at the rim off the weak side.

Do we turn into Gonzaga with a lot of skilled guys, but not as athletic as Baylor last year, or this Arizona team?

Thats what I want to see. I think Lloyd is smart enough to know he needs a mixture of both. Ill give him the benefit of the doubt for now, but its definitely something to keep an eye on.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:20 am**

I think we'll see Arizona +1.5 - we're not favorites heading into this one

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:24 am**

TucsonClip wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:17 am
Spaceman Spiff wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:33 am
First, thanks for the analysis you bring to the board.

My take on Lloyd, he has done a great job fitting defensive scheme to personnel. I do think there's an ongoing question about how he will be fitting future rosters into schemes or how he recruits to fill out his schemes, but for right now, he's fit a system to personnel quite well.

His scheme fits two big assets of this team. First, every starter but Kerr is longer/bigger than average for college. Combining that with being up the line creates a disincentive to aggressively swing the ball, as you're passing into a congested lane clogged by a long, athletic player. It also minimizes closeouts as you note, which was not a strong suit last year. Closeouts will always happen, and I feel like players have improved in that area, but minimizing them helps this roster.

Same with drop and or switching. They're both designed to keep the ball in front of a defender with less influence than hedge and recover. Again, this is well suited for bigger, longer defenders. My only caveat here is I wonder the sustainability vs a team with dynamic and quick scoring guards, which we haven't really seen yet.

Lastly, Koloko is an elite rim protector in the college game. A lot of what Lloyd is doing seems predicated on not needing team efforts to control penetration but instead counting on Koloko to erase things. This again plays to a strength of having an eraser...it's also why I wonder what the future holds when we may not have a elite rim protector.

On the whole it's interesting. I'm intrigued to see how Lloyd handles the developmental aspect of players, since one of the great advantages of this team is all the major guys had significant teaching and playing time when he stepped in. Do Bal, Ballo and Nowell develop to take the places of Mathurin, Koloko and Terry or does Lloyd restructure?
Totally agree with everything you posted here.

Im trying not to worry about the recruiting aspect of things right now, because we know a few things:

1. Lloyd and his staff are going to be selective.
2. They are likely being selective, because they want to bring in guys who can fit this style (on both ends).
3. We are still Arizona. That name will carry weight on the trail and get us in the door for the big names and aid Lloyd.

However, as you mention, what does the roster look like after Lloyd brings in his own classes? We know he will likely look for high IQ guys who can read and react, shoot, dribble, pass. But, again, as we both mention, the defensive system is not the same without a guy like Koloko, and to a lesser extent Ballo, to erase shots at the rim off the weak side.

Do we turn into Gonzaga with a lot of skilled guys, but not as athletic as Baylor last year, or this Arizona team?

Thats what I want to see. I think Lloyd is smart enough to know he needs a mixture of both. Ill give him the benefit of the doubt for now, but its definitely something to keep an eye on.

Definitely will be interesting to see what the body type of our Center recruits ends up being under Lloyd. And I’m curious if he starts to fall in love with certain types of players and how they fit his system. Like how CSM seemed to see things in certain PGs that did not show up on game day.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:29 am**

Chicat wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:38 pm
ChooChooCat wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:04 pm
Chicat wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:54 pm
Alieberman wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:50 pm They are always going to be compared against each other... that's just human nature.

This is not a knock against Miller, I just feel like TL is a better fit for this current era of college basketball.
Cool. Let me know when Tommy Boy produces multiple conference titles, conference tourney titles, and tourney runs into the second weekend.

It’s been 8 games under Tommy Boy and some of you are like, “Sean Miller?? Dude sucked!”

Are you really this bitter that you have to continue calling the guy Tommy Boy like he’s a man child or something? I get the not hating on Miller and appreciating the foundation he left, but good Christ give the Lloyd hate a fucking rest already will ya? He’s not who you’re mad at, so knock it off already.
A) He’s a grown man who calls himself Tommy.

B) That post has no hate at all for Tommy, but instead is relating how stupid it is to act like Sean Miller didn’t leave Tommy Boy a full cupboard that he’s taking full advantage of.

C) Since we are telling people how to feel, why don’t you relax Choo? Maybe take a Melatonin and put on some Enya. Getting all upset at me isn’t good for the blood pressure, and is also totally unnecessary. Sorry I called your boyfriend Tommy Boy. I’ll only do it again about 600 more times, I swear.

It must be the Yankee fan in you having flashbacks of that fat little obnoxious Italian who coached the Dodgers back in the day. Seems a little ridiculous to me, and to keep this short and sweet: Every great athlete or coach named Willie, Billy, and Johnny disagrees. So does the human tripod who played drums for Motley Crue.

I was a pretty staunch Miller supporter who was not at all excited by this hire... but I'll gladly admit that every indication thus far suggests I was terribly wrong. I love every thing I've seen from this guy to date.

As much as I did appreciate Miller and everything he did here, I do not believe this team would be performing the way this one has (or even that close, actually) had he returned. For starters, Lloyd has brought the JOY back to UA basketball. I think Miller put so much pressure on himself and was so driven to get over the hump that it hamstrung his teams, especially as his tenure progressed. I hope he is watching this team and filing away some notes for future reference at his next gig. Wherever it is, I wish him mad success.

And I always rolled my eyes at all those who constantly bitched about 'style of play'. Winning matters most, but God Damn this team (and the way it plays) is fun to watch.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:35 am**

Chicat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:24 am
TucsonClip wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:17 am
Spaceman Spiff wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:33 am
First, thanks for the analysis you bring to the board.

My take on Lloyd, he has done a great job fitting defensive scheme to personnel. I do think there's an ongoing question about how he will be fitting future rosters into schemes or how he recruits to fill out his schemes, but for right now, he's fit a system to personnel quite well.

His scheme fits two big assets of this team. First, every starter but Kerr is longer/bigger than average for college. Combining that with being up the line creates a disincentive to aggressively swing the ball, as you're passing into a congested lane clogged by a long, athletic player. It also minimizes closeouts as you note, which was not a strong suit last year. Closeouts will always happen, and I feel like players have improved in that area, but minimizing them helps this roster.

Same with drop and or switching. They're both designed to keep the ball in front of a defender with less influence than hedge and recover. Again, this is well suited for bigger, longer defenders. My only caveat here is I wonder the sustainability vs a team with dynamic and quick scoring guards, which we haven't really seen yet.

Lastly, Koloko is an elite rim protector in the college game. A lot of what Lloyd is doing seems predicated on not needing team efforts to control penetration but instead counting on Koloko to erase things. This again plays to a strength of having an eraser...it's also why I wonder what the future holds when we may not have a elite rim protector.

On the whole it's interesting. I'm intrigued to see how Lloyd handles the developmental aspect of players, since one of the great advantages of this team is all the major guys had significant teaching and playing time when he stepped in. Do Bal, Ballo and Nowell develop to take the places of Mathurin, Koloko and Terry or does Lloyd restructure?
Totally agree with everything you posted here.

Im trying not to worry about the recruiting aspect of things right now, because we know a few things:

1. Lloyd and his staff are going to be selective.
2. They are likely being selective, because they want to bring in guys who can fit this style (on both ends).
3. We are still Arizona. That name will carry weight on the trail and get us in the door for the big names and aid Lloyd.

However, as you mention, what does the roster look like after Lloyd brings in his own classes? We know he will likely look for high IQ guys who can read and react, shoot, dribble, pass. But, again, as we both mention, the defensive system is not the same without a guy like Koloko, and to a lesser extent Ballo, to erase shots at the rim off the weak side.

Do we turn into Gonzaga with a lot of skilled guys, but not as athletic as Baylor last year, or this Arizona team?

Thats what I want to see. I think Lloyd is smart enough to know he needs a mixture of both. Ill give him the benefit of the doubt for now, but its definitely something to keep an eye on.
Definitely will be interesting to see what the body type of our Center recruits ends up being under Lloyd. And I’m curious if he starts to fall in love with certain types of players and how they fit his system. Like how CSM seemed to see things in certain PGs that did not show up on game day.

We need to have an Oregon-esque big in the rotation each year, IMO. If we cant do that, even a SDSU style big works. Ill gladly take a Nathan Mensa, whom is a more fluid and mobile, yet less bruising version of Ballo. Kind of the mix between Koloko and Ballo.

Essentially, a guy with size who can switch onto guards and wings in a pinch, block shots off the weakside and has hands.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:41 am**

TucsonClip wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:35 am We need to have an Oregon-esque big in the rotation each year, IMO. If we cant do that, even a SDSU style big works. Ill gladly take a Nathan Mensa, whom is a more fluid and mobile, yet less bruising version of Ballo. Kind of the mix between Koloko and Ballo.

Essentially, a guy with size who can switch onto guards and wings in a pinch, block shots off the weakside and has hands.

Since it’s a two-way street, I’m also curious what bigs will be interested in us. Will we go after highly rated guys who aren’t as quick of foot but envision themselves as NBA 4s and desperately want to be on a team that gets out and runs? I know recruiting rankings were more important than they should have been to the previous staff. Does CTB & Co fall into the same trap? Or will they keep getting in on kids who are more under the radar but project to fit the system better?

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:53 am**

TucsonClip wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:17 am
Spaceman Spiff wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:33 am
First, thanks for the analysis you bring to the board.

My take on Lloyd, he has done a great job fitting defensive scheme to personnel. I do think there's an ongoing question about how he will be fitting future rosters into schemes or how he recruits to fill out his schemes, but for right now, he's fit a system to personnel quite well.

His scheme fits two big assets of this team. First, every starter but Kerr is longer/bigger than average for college. Combining that with being up the line creates a disincentive to aggressively swing the ball, as you're passing into a congested lane clogged by a long, athletic player. It also minimizes closeouts as you note, which was not a strong suit last year. Closeouts will always happen, and I feel like players have improved in that area, but minimizing them helps this roster.

Same with drop and or switching. They're both designed to keep the ball in front of a defender with less influence than hedge and recover. Again, this is well suited for bigger, longer defenders. My only caveat here is I wonder the sustainability vs a team with dynamic and quick scoring guards, which we haven't really seen yet.

Lastly, Koloko is an elite rim protector in the college game. A lot of what Lloyd is doing seems predicated on not needing team efforts to control penetration but instead counting on Koloko to erase things. This again plays to a strength of having an eraser...it's also why I wonder what the future holds when we may not have a elite rim protector.

On the whole it's interesting. I'm intrigued to see how Lloyd handles the developmental aspect of players, since one of the great advantages of this team is all the major guys had significant teaching and playing time when he stepped in. Do Bal, Ballo and Nowell develop to take the places of Mathurin, Koloko and Terry or does Lloyd restructure?
Totally agree with everything you posted here.

Im trying not to worry about the recruiting aspect of things right now, because we know a few things:

1. Lloyd and his staff are going to be selective.
2. They are likely being selective, because they want to bring in guys who can fit this style (on both ends).
3. We are still Arizona. That name will carry weight on the trail and get us in the door for the big names and aid Lloyd.

However, as you mention, what does the roster look like after Lloyd brings in his own classes? We know he will likely look for high IQ guys who can read and react, shoot, dribble, pass. But, again, as we both mention, the defensive system is not the same without a guy like Koloko, and to a lesser extent Ballo, to erase shots at the rim off the weak side.

Do we turn into Gonzaga with a lot of skilled guys, but not as athletic as Baylor last year, or this Arizona team?

Thats what I want to see. I think Lloyd is smart enough to know he needs a mixture of both. Ill give him the benefit of the doubt for now, but its definitely something to keep an eye on.

Yeah, and I don't mean the future comments in an excessively negative way. I mean, I wish Lloyd had won more battles to date, but there is a lot of story to be written.

Koloko' impact is the cog I have a hard time seeing Lloyd consistently being able to rely on. A 14.4 block % puts him with some of the best rim protectors in modern CBB history. A song got written about the length of Mo Bamba's arms, and he only had a 13.3 block %. Joakim Noah keyed interior D for back to back NCAA champs and never got higher than 6.8%.

I think Arizona should hopefully have long wings going forward. I'd hope Terry returns and both Bal and Nowell have + length.

I'm interested to see if less rim protection makes Lloyd's D look more like Miller's in the future. One reason our 13-14 and 14-15 defense was so good is Zeus and Ashley weren't rim protectors but were very good in space. That fit nicely with packline, where the current roster is probably a better fit for the scheme Lloyd is using.

I wish I was more bullish on Ballo. Koloko's strength is not in space or on switches, but he can handle himself there. I have trouble seeing Ballo being able to handle switching the p+r for 20 minutes a night...really ever, and I worry that always flattens his ability to step into Koloko's shoes. He had a hot start on block %, but it's come back to earth and his trend is the better the opponent, the more limited he is.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:03 pm**

Chicat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:41 am
TucsonClip wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:35 am We need to have an Oregon-esque big in the rotation each year, IMO. If we cant do that, even a SDSU style big works. Ill gladly take a Nathan Mensa, whom is a more fluid and mobile, yet less bruising version of Ballo. Kind of the mix between Koloko and Ballo.

Essentially, a guy with size who can switch onto guards and wings in a pinch, block shots off the weakside and has hands.
Since it’s a two-way street, I’m also curious what bigs will be interested in us. Will we go after highly rated guys who aren’t as quick of foot but envision themselves as NBA 4s and desperately want to be on a team that gets out and runs? I know recruiting rankings were more important than they should have been to the previous staff. Does CTB & Co fall into the same trap? Or will they keep getting in on kids who are more under the radar but project to fit the system better?

So far the latter is the case.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:10 pm**

Macho Grande wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:04 am
Beachcat97 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:22 am
IndianaZonaFan wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:17 am Arizona -12.5
Where are you seeing that?

If that's the actual line, I'll be very surprised.
No way that's the actual line. If that's legit, I'm selling everything I own and taking the points with Illinois.

I'm guessing the line will be Illinois -5 or so.

That’s my personal guess

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:16 pm**

ChooChooCat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:03 pm
Chicat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:41 am
Since it’s a two-way street, I’m also curious what bigs will be interested in us. Will we go after highly rated guys who aren’t as quick of foot but envision themselves as NBA 4s and desperately want to be on a team that gets out and runs? I know recruiting rankings were more important than they should have been to the previous staff. Does CTB & Co fall into the same trap? Or will they keep getting in on kids who are more under the radar but project to fit the system better?
So far the latter is the case.

I liked Miller's recruiting, took me a while to realize that's what I actually liked about his time here. His on the court product save for a year or two was a slog and not fun to watch.

But the prospect of incoming players, highly rated a lot of the times, was far more exciting. And when they got on the court the slog set in, so you look forward to the next batch of incoming players what was for sure going to change that.

I haven't checked recruiting threads on premium or here because I simply don't care at all about it. I just simply like watching the product on the court, a lot of the times with miller the opposite was true.

Recruiting will work itself out, I'm not too worked up about it.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:32 pm**

Chicat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:41 am
TucsonClip wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:35 am We need to have an Oregon-esque big in the rotation each year, IMO. If we cant do that, even a SDSU style big works. Ill gladly take a Nathan Mensa, whom is a more fluid and mobile, yet less bruising version of Ballo. Kind of the mix between Koloko and Ballo.

Essentially, a guy with size who can switch onto guards and wings in a pinch, block shots off the weakside and has hands.
Since it’s a two-way street, I’m also curious what bigs will be interested in us. Will we go after highly rated guys who aren’t as quick of foot but envision themselves as NBA 4s and desperately want to be on a team that gets out and runs? I know recruiting rankings were more important than they should have been to the previous staff. Does CTB & Co fall into the same trap? Or will they keep getting in on kids who are more under the radar but project to fit the system better?

I never fully understood this criticism of Miller.

As a first thing, the best recruiters have probably 30-40% of prospects not pan out as hoped. It's just how the inexactness of the game works out.

By and large, I thought a hallmark of Miller's era was highly rated prospects delivering on a regular basis. Nick Johnson, Aaron Gordon, RHJ, Stanley Johnson, Ashley, Zeus, Trier, Hill, Ayton, Alkins, Mannion, Green...all good to great college players.

Then, you had a second class of less heralded guys who outperformed expectations. I'd class DWill, Parrom, York, Ristic, Lauri, Zeke, Benn, Kadeem, Tubelis and Koloko here.

You had some tragic cases (Ray Smith, BWill) and some talented guys with character issues (Josiah, Victor, Doutrive).

The only guys I'd maybe class as an overreliance on ranking are guys like PJC, Jeter and maybe Akot. Even there, I mean, for the hate PJC gets here, I thought it was more an issue of leaving him as the only PG. Jeter was a bust.

Apologies for the haphazard lists, they are 100% off the top of my head. Just my thoughts on a common topic here I tend to be a contrarian on.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:38 pm**

Cats opens as favorites against the Crying Illini:

AZ-2

https://www.vegasinsider.com/college-ba ... ois-urbana

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:45 pm**

ChooChooCat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:03 pm
Chicat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:41 am
TucsonClip wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:35 am We need to have an Oregon-esque big in the rotation each year, IMO. If we cant do that, even a SDSU style big works. Ill gladly take a Nathan Mensa, whom is a more fluid and mobile, yet less bruising version of Ballo. Kind of the mix between Koloko and Ballo.

Essentially, a guy with size who can switch onto guards and wings in a pinch, block shots off the weakside and has hands.
Since it’s a two-way street, I’m also curious what bigs will be interested in us. Will we go after highly rated guys who aren’t as quick of foot but envision themselves as NBA 4s and desperately want to be on a team that gets out and runs? I know recruiting rankings were more important than they should have been to the previous staff. Does CTB & Co fall into the same trap? Or will they keep getting in on kids who are more under the radar but project to fit the system better?
So far the latter is the case.

As it should be. We keep doing what we're doing and we're going to be PLENTY desirable to land transfers that we can fill in the blanks as needed while the staff develops system players.

Same as Baylor, same as Gonzaga.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:45 pm**

dmjcat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:38 pm Cats opens as favorites against the Crying Illini:

AZ-2

https://www.vegasinsider.com/college-ba ... ois-urbana

Fuuuuuck

Cats out of the bag

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:49 pm**

dmjcat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:38 pm Cats opens as favorites against the Crying Illini:

AZ-2

https://www.vegasinsider.com/college-ba ... ois-urbana

Think it’ll move to -4 or -5 by tip-off

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:39 pm**

Macho Grande wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:04 am
Beachcat97 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:22 am
IndianaZonaFan wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:17 am Arizona -12.5
Where are you seeing that?

If that's the actual line, I'll be very surprised.
No way that's the actual line. If that's legit, I'm selling everything I own and taking the points with Illinois.

I'm guessing the line will be Illinois -5 or so.

KenPom had Illinois winning by 2. Gave us a 47% chance to win. The only way we will win is if Koloko can stay out of foul trouble. If he picks up two quick ones which is his MO before this year it will be a long night. If he makes it hard on their center who outweighs him by 70 lbs. we have a shot. I also think our break will make it hard on their center and the rest of their team who relies on him to back them up. They did not do well against the press against Iowa so we might also pick up a cheap one there in a close game. People always remember that melt down we had against Ill. what they forget is that they were undefeated and big favorites in that game. They also forget that was probably the best 30 minutes of basketball Az. had played that year and possibly ever.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:42 pm**

It didn't help that the refs swallowed their whistles the last 5 minutes.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:04 pm**

Illinois probably can't afford to keep Cockburn off the floor. Expect Arizona to attack him mercilessly.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:08 pm**

Spaceman Spiff wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:32 pm I never fully understood this criticism of Miller.

My criticism is not that his recruits were not good college players, but that they didn’t all fit his system and that he played some of them out of position or put them in roles that were not tailored to their strengths.

I think CSM may have been overconfident in his ability to mold the player to the role and that highly ranked prospects automatically equal a successful team.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:15 pm**

TheCat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:39 pm
Macho Grande wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:04 am
Beachcat97 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:22 am
IndianaZonaFan wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:17 am Arizona -12.5
Where are you seeing that?

If that's the actual line, I'll be very surprised.
No way that's the actual line. If that's legit, I'm selling everything I own and taking the points with Illinois.

I'm guessing the line will be Illinois -5 or so.
KenPom had Illinois winning by 2. Gave us a 47% chance to win. The only way we will win is if Koloko can stay out of foul trouble. If he picks up two quick ones which is his MO before this year it will be a long night. If he makes it hard on their center who outweighs him by 70 lbs. we have a shot. I also think our break will make it hard on their center and the rest of their team who relies on him to back them up. They did not do well against the press against Iowa so we might also pick up a cheap one there in a close game. People always remember that melt down we had against Ill. what they forget is that they were undefeated and big favorites in that game. They also forget that was probably the best 30 minutes of basketball Az. had played that year and possibly ever.

Personally I am expecting to see Cockburn run over Koloko (literally) at least 5 or 6 times.......with no offensive foul call but probably at least 2-3 blocking fouls. How the refs call the Cockburn/UA center matchup may well decide the game. I am pessimistic given who is officiating the game.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:26 pm**

Chicat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:08 pm
Spaceman Spiff wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:32 pm I never fully understood this criticism of Miller.
My criticism is not that his recruits were not good college players, but that they didn’t all fit his system and that he played some of them out of position or put them in roles that were not tailored to their strengths.

I think CSM may have been overconfident in his ability to mold the player to the role and that highly ranked prospects automatically equal a successful team.

Ok, that is a bit different for what I'd thought. I go back and forth on that one.

The worst I'd point to is pairing Ayton with Ristic on the roster. That was always a rough pairing, but I'm not sure you could justify turning down Ayton or forcing out Ristic.

There were years when I thought Miller overrecruited certain positions. Like 2012 with Zeus, Ashley and Jerrett or 2016 with Alkins and Simmons on top of Allen, Trier and Smith. That said, those classes were the core of the great 13-15 teams and the 16-17 team.

There were also some classes I thought were great fits. I think we're seeing one on the court this year. The 2013 class was fantastic. It was a happy accident, but Miller's inaugural class couldn't have been better. The 2019 class was also pretty great and got let down by the vets.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:47 pm**

Longhorned wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:04 pm Illinois probably can't afford to keep Cockburn off the floor. Expect Arizona to attack him mercilessly.

Kind of hoping Bill Walton calls this came so he can completely screw up the pronunciation of "Cockburn".

But not really. Don't miss Walton at all.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:50 pm**

Give us Gus Johnson!

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:53 pm**

Jefe wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:50 pm Give us Gus Johnson!

its the national game on FOX so im assuming it will be their lead crew?

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:57 pm**

97cats wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:53 pm
Jefe wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:50 pm Give us Gus Johnson!
its the national game on FOX so im assuming it will be their lead crew?

Gus is lead but could be Raftery or Jim Jackson

Syracuse/GTown and UCLA/Marquette on before us though

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:16 pm**

Cockburn is a Top-5 all-time worst last name.

Right up there with Clownfart and Lipshitz.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:24 pm**

Chicat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:16 pm Cockburn is a Top-5 all-time worst last name.

Right up there with Clownfart and Lipshitz.

There's only one king.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:47 pm**

Illinois basketball tweeted out the video from the game today. I wanted to boat race them before but now I want to embarrass the fuck out of them.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:07 pm**

azgreg wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:47 pm Illinois basketball tweeted out the video from the game today. I wanted to boat race them before but now I want to embarrass the fuck out of them.

Whatever. I watched the end of that game on Youtube like 5 years ago and it no longer has any hold over me.

Side note, Deron Williams might be the kost inexplicably pudgy athlete ever. Even other pleasantly plump guys like Ray Felton were in shape at times.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:10 pm**

Spaceman Spiff wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:07 pm Deron Williams might be the kost inexplicably pudgy athlete ever. Even other pleasantly plump guys like Ray Felton were in shape at times.

Evan Battey has entered the chat.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:33 pm**

These talk show hosts discuss Arizona. It's not a YouTube video so can't embed it. It is the Titus & Tate show.

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/1983173699685

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:07 pm**

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:17 pm**

Chicat wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:10 pm
Spaceman Spiff wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:07 pm Deron Williams might be the kost inexplicably pudgy athlete ever. Even other pleasantly plump guys like Ray Felton were in shape at times.
Evan Battey has entered the chat.

I say inexplicable because guards need speed and athleticism. Battey is a jello banger in the tradition of Barkley, Shaq, etc. You don't see many round 6'1 dudes.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:23 pm**

azgreg wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:07 pm

If they have two hours in the Indianapolis airport, why not walk the players through things at the airport and skip the shoot around?

Not to toot my own horn, but I ask that as a man who just ate a lot of pizza.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:31 pm**

Line opened at cats -2 and has gone to cats -1. This may be why

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:42 pm**

The weather is truly shitty but it’s not that bad a drive from Indy to Champaign.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:54 pm**

I used to drive from Champaign to Indianapolis just to shop at Trader Joes. But yous already knowed that.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:27 pm**

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:43 pm**

Don't you hate it when they beat around the bush like that?

Posted: **Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:35 am**

The Film Room write-up on our offense in The Athletic was fantastic.

For those that haven’t read it, the authors take an in depth look at how we pass ahead on the fast break, how using two traditional bigs in pick-&-roll is giving us easy looks at the rim, and how Tubelis has been killing it in the High-Low.

It’s a great look at Tommy Boy’s offensive philosophy and how he’s been able to switch up our attack based on what the defense is willing to give us.

https://theathletic.com/3007927/2021/12 ... ed_article

Posted: **Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:03 am**

Chicat wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:35 am The Film Room write-up on our offense in The Athletic was fantastic.

For those that haven’t read it, the authors take an in depth look at how we pass ahead on the fast break, how using two traditional bigs in pick-&-roll is giving us easy looks at the rim, and how Tubelis has been killing it in the High-Low.

It’s a great look at Tommy Boy’s offensive philosophy and how he’s been able to switch up our attack based on what the defense is willing to give us.

https://theathletic.com/3007927/2021/12 ... ed_article

Yup, to sum up the article all it basically said was "Tommy likey, Tommy want wingies" right?

Posted: **Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:44 am**

To quote one of my favorite posters…

ChooChooCat wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:04 pm Are you really this bitter

Posted: **Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:08 am**

Chicat wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:44 am To quote one of my favorite posters…

ChooChooCat wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:04 pm Are you really this bitter

Hey I just almost confused you with being on board with the Tommy Boy era with your post. I was just looking for clarification that he is still a man child, that's all.

Posted: **Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:08 am**

Cats had to Uber it to Champaign.

https://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildca ... a202f.html

Posted: **Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:18 am**

Underwood on Arizona

Illinois coach Brad Underwood weighed in on the game — and opponent — Friday afternoon during his regular pregame press conference ...

"As always, the one thing I think I've done here in my time is we're going to try to play people and play really good people," the Illini coach said. "We're excited to have Arizona in the return of what was a home-and-home. Obviously, didn't play the game last year due to COVID and travel restrictions that made it pretty difficult to try to set that date.

"One of the elite programs in the history of college basketball. You're talking about a program with rich, rich tradition and great fan base. (Coach Tommy Lloyd) is in his first year. Obviously, Tommy paid his dues at Gonzaga and had unparalleled success there on the recruiting front and inherits a tremendous program and is doing a nice job. They're off to a great start. This is a very, very good Arizona basketball team. They've got great length, great size and really talented players. We're excited to welcome them to Champaign and to the State Farm Center.

"It's one of the things I said I was going to continue to try to do was prepare our team for Big Ten play. We're obviously 2-0 in that, and now it's back to non-league games here for a little bit and continue to grow and prepare ourselves for January and February with the remaining 18 games we have left in conference play. Great challenge ahead of us in a fast-paced Arizona team. We'll have to play really well."

https://www.news-gazette.com/sports/goo ... 584ba.html

Posted: **Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:02 am**

Is Aiken playing?

Posted: **Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:07 am**

SunnyAZ wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:02 am Is Aiken playing?

I can't find if he traveled with the team anywhere but I will be surprised if he plays today

Posted: **Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:58 am**

Would be nice to have him but got to assume he’s not playing otherwise we would have heard by now.

Bear Down Wildcats

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