Tommy Lloyd

[TheCat]

Ironically TheCat is the only one in this thread calling Tommy a mediocre coach.

Reviewing the thread it’s something he completely made up to emphasize his point. A nice little “When The Fuck Did We Get Ice Cream?!” lie he told to try and command the moment.

Who the fuck said Lloyd was a mediocre coach? I said this is a mediocre season by Arizona standards, largely because the roster is incomplete, a mediocre assemblage by Lloyd after 4 offseasons to create it.

One facilitator
Four centers
No playable wing shooting
No post defense
No perimeter three defense
Stifled top freshman role
Too little accountability for Love and Lewis
Lacking frontcourt athleticism and size due to Trey and Awaka both being several inches short and below the rim players for their position, starting alongside each other for 75% of the season.

Team had major issues, everyone of them a Lloyd choice, and they finished 5-10 vs Tournament teams, 0-5 to begin, 0-4 to end

Lloyd maxed the hell out of that roster year one Big12. Hell, if they don’t choke vs UCLA and close out vs Houston and BYU, they would be a top-15 rank despite all this.

But they did choke vs UCLA. And several other teams that ended up wins, and vs Houston that was a Loss, and stumbled down stretch vs Kansas that was a loss, and allowed themselves to be in a situation where Tony Padilla could screw them over at home vs unranked team, and lose to non-tourney team again in February, etc etc.

This squad is the worst full roster Tommy has had, and, it has had some of the worst accountability, which, shockingly, means they play like crap late game and lose more than they win when it matters.

Not sure how this is even an argument.

Your right. I was wrong . No one in this thread said Tommy was mediocre coach. It wasn't in this thread.....now go back and review the Arizona 24-25 thread and tell me the same thing. Sorry I confused the threads but don't tell me it was a fucking lie. You can make this personal and remind us how connected you are and how you never post but when you do it is with great authority all you want. Please don't tell us you never said that. What you just wrote above is Tommy pulled a rabbit out of his hat despite all his fuck ups. You remind us how we started and ended the season but what happened in between? Let's not talk about any positive shit here. You talk about this roster having the worst accountability....must have been one of your magical connection that told you that. I call bullshit on that. It might be true but YOU would never know it if it was. Your narrative explains the losing but ignores any winning. I guess we had accountability then and it slipped away.
Since Tommy max the hell out of the roster why won't he do it again?

You obviously don't like your narrative challenged with all your connections and stuff. Sorry if I insulted you I was just trying to "command the moment" whatever the fuck that means on a message board.

[JMarkJohns]

You haven’t challenged a single goddamned syllable of the facts I’ve presented.

You’ve said words.

All empty.

[dmjcat]

You haven’t challenged a single goddamned syllable of the facts I’ve presented.

You’ve said words.

All empty.

Facts??? ROTFLMAO

All you have presented are the half-baked opinions of a message board fan-boy.

Frankly, you appear to know about as much about basketball as I do about fabricating Thermonuclear weapons.

You really should launch a campaign to replace Tommy LLoyd as the head coach

[Lando05]

Ironically TheCat is the only one in this thread calling Tommy a mediocre coach.

Reviewing the thread it’s something he completely made up to emphasize his point. A nice little “When The Fuck Did We Get Ice Cream?!” lie he told to try and command the moment.

Who the fuck said Lloyd was a mediocre coach? I said this is a mediocre season by Arizona standards, largely because the roster is incomplete, a mediocre assemblage by Lloyd after 4 offseasons to create it.

One facilitator
Four centers
No playable wing shooting
No post defense
No perimeter three defense
Stifled top freshman role
Too little accountability for Love and Lewis
Lacking frontcourt athleticism and size due to Trey and Awaka both being several inches short and below the rim players for their position, starting alongside each other for 75% of the season.

Team had major issues, everyone of them a Lloyd choice, and they finished 5-10 vs Tournament teams, 0-5 to begin, 0-4 to end

Lloyd maxed the hell out of that roster year one Big12. Hell, if they don’t choke vs UCLA and close out vs Houston and BYU, they would be a top-15 rank despite all this.

But they did choke vs UCLA. And several other teams that ended up wins, and vs Houston that was a Loss, and stumbled down stretch vs Kansas that was a loss, and allowed themselves to be in a situation where Tony Padilla could screw them over at home vs unranked team, and lose to non-tourney team again in February, etc etc.

This squad is the worst full roster Tommy has had, and, it has had some of the worst accountability, which, shockingly, means they play like crap late game and lose more than they win when it matters.

Not sure how this is even an argument.

Your right. I was wrong . No one in this thread said Tommy was mediocre coach. It wasn't in this thread.....now go back and review the Arizona 24-25 thread and tell me the same thing. Sorry I confused the threads but don't tell me it was a fucking lie. You can make this personal and remind us how connected you are and how you never post but when you do it is with great authority all you want. Please don't tell us you never said that. What you just wrote above is Tommy pulled a rabbit out of his hat despite all his fuck ups. You remind us how we started and ended the season but what happened in between? Let's not talk about any positive shit here. You talk about this roster having the worst accountability....must have been one of your magical connection that told you that. I call bullshit on that. It might be true but YOU would never know it if it was. Your narrative explains the losing but ignores any winning. I guess we had accountability then and it slipped away.
Since Tommy max the hell out of the roster why won't he do it again?

You obviously don't like your narrative challenged with all your connections and stuff. Sorry if I insulted you I was just trying to "command the moment" whatever the fuck that means on a message board.

You haven't made any counter points to JMark or Winger. You just type a bunch of feelings not backed up by facts. You're just an apologist and homer. Learn how to have some objectivity.

[MrKyle]

I don't think that JMark or Winger have any crazily unfounded opinions or thoughts on Lloyd - all well laid out critiques IMO.

I don't get the feeling that there are many on here that are saying he isn't a capable coach, it is that he has not shown strength when it comes to recruiting/talent evaluation and to a degree X's and O's/in game adjustments. Seeing how those are both large facets of being a coach discussion on those topics is to be expected based on results.

That is why this coming offseason is going to be a big one, there are looming personnel issues and distinct needs to be filled.

[TheCat]

First of all my counter to this constant narrative of no this, no that ,could be better at this, and the worst ever something, is just to ask about results. How did we end up better than anyone predicted? JMJ says no one said Tommy was average but me. First that is inaccurate but Isn't recruiting part of coaching? If it is, they have said he is worse than mediocre. I have said this team has holes many times especially in shooting but I don't discount the results that JMJ does with his lost 5 to begin the season and lost 4 at the end. All those are facts it just ignores that in between there was a lot of positives. Like we beat the 3 of the four teams he points out that we lost to at the end of the year. I guess he never realized how hard it has been to win on the road in the B12. One team had a winning record last year in the conference. One. How is that even mathematically possible? Arizona has a winning record on the road this year.

I am not an apologist but I am a homer if that means celebrating accomplishments where I find them. I tend to be an optimist within reason (don't think we are going very far in the tournament) but am always hopeful.

If you don't think results are a counter point to Mr. Winger and JMJ then I concede we are just a flawed doomed team that is about to fall off a cliff. If you want to see that in writing just read the 2024-25 thread in November and December. Lots of "probably questionable" if we make the tournament. I thought that talk was stupid at the time or a least premature.

Results have always been the basis of my arguments but I do realize we see things completely differently. My vision is optimist and always will be when it comes to Arizona athletics.

[JMarkJohns]

You haven’t challenged a single goddamned syllable of the facts I’ve presented.

You’ve said words.

All empty.

Facts??? ROTFLMAO

All you have presented are the half-baked opinions of a message board fan-boy.

Frankly, you appear to know about as much about basketball as I do about fabricating Thermonuclear weapons.

You really should launch a campaign to replace Tommy LLoyd as the head coach

Good attempt at trolling. Problem is, I gotta give a shit about the poster to give a shit about the opinion.

And I don’t.

But have fun with your tizzy.

[JMarkJohns]

First of all my counter to this constant narrative of no this, no that ,could be better at this, and the worst ever something, is just to ask about results. How did we end up better than anyone predicted? JMJ says no one said Tommy was average but me. First that is inaccurate but Isn't recruiting part of coaching? If it is, they have said he is worse than mediocre. I have said this team has holes many times especially in shooting but I don't discount the results that JMJ does with his lost 5 to begin the season and lost 4 at the end. All those are facts it just ignores that in between there was a lot of positives. Like we beat the 3 of the four teams he points out that we lost to at the end of the year. I guess he never realized how hard it has been to win on the road in the B12. One team had a winning record last year in the conference. One. How is that even mathematically possible? Arizona has a winning record on the road this year.

I am not an apologist but I am a homer if that means celebrating accomplishments where I find them. I tend to be an optimist within reason (don't think we are going very far in the tournament) but am always hopeful.

If you don't think results are a counter point to Mr. Winger and JMJ then I concede we are just a flawed doomed team that is about to fall off a cliff. If you want to see that in writing just read the 2024-25 thread in November and December. Lots of "probably questionable" if we make the tournament. I thought that talk was stupid at the time or a least premature.

Results have always been the basis of my arguments but I do realize we see things completely differently. My vision is optimist and always will be when it comes to Arizona athletics.

I’m gonna say it. And I don’t care how conceited it sounds.

Winger, TucsonClip, these are some of the smartest basketball minds I have read beyond my own commentary. All three of us are aligned on things being worse than results bandaid, recruiting being worse than results bandaid, and upside being sacrificed for convenience.

Winger and I have had such knockdown fights we argued all the way into DMs.

So if we are in agreement, there’s damn sure investment in the opinions. If TC agrees, I’ll go to war for that opinion.

I dropped a bomb in this thread a few weeks back. I stirred the pot. It’s why Jason Scheer and Josh Gershon have always made me a premium moderator and featured me as a premium add on for content. I stood up to sons of bitches like the asshole who ran us all off Rivals free boards to help start this board. So I seldom backdown.

I didn’t post about sports here for a long while, but the demise of Twitter has me all
Nostalgic and shit.

I got no ill will toward anyone who disagrees. But nobody will ever convince me I’m wrong. Scheer even tries and it don’t take.

I wasn’t wrong on Miller. I wasn’t wrong on Heeke. I wasn’t wrong on Robbins. I’m not wrong on Lloyd.

I said there wasn’t no goddamned piece of evidence usable against Miller by the NCAA and they were a paper tiger. I have a Twitter Timeline of facts I compiled that proved it. I was interviewed by FoxSports, The Athletic, and John Gambadoro about it.

I said Heeke was a Robbins puppet and in over his head good for nothing who would sink us. He did. Damn near he did.

I said Robbins was a conceited fucking asshole who couldn’t be told and surrounded himself with yes men who cost Arizona dearly in financial, reputation, and should be fired. He did, he basically was.

I said what I said about Lloyd 2+ years ago. It’s not a new opinion. Just knew to this board.

And, I’m not wrong on it. Not yet. And I won’t be wrong unless Lloyd sells his soul for a Final 4 run because this team isn’t doing it and next year is looking like a scarier roster construction than this year.

It is what it is, but since when is wanting your head coach to be his best a bad thing? He has issues. He needs to fix them.

Or else he and Arizona will be fixed I.e. neutered in the Big12.

[Merkin]

[Lando05]

I'd give rep JMark if I could.

[dmjcat]

You haven’t challenged a single goddamned syllable of the facts I’ve presented.

You’ve said words.

All empty.

Facts??? ROTFLMAO

All you have presented are the half-baked opinions of a message board fan-boy.

Frankly, you appear to know about as much about basketball as I do about fabricating Thermonuclear weapons.

You really should launch a campaign to replace Tommy LLoyd as the head coach

Good attempt at trolling. Problem is, I gotta give a shit about the poster to give a shit about the opinion.

And I don’t.

But have fun with your tizzy.

Troll??? LOL

YOU are literally the very definition of a troll.

Your fanboy takes are really wasting a lot of bandwidth on the board.

Bottom line, CTL has forgotten more about basketball than you will ever know.

[JMarkJohns]

I do in fact believe Tommy Lloyd has forgotten a lot about basketball.

That’s a fact

[Winger]

First of all my counter to this constant narrative of no this, no that ,could be better at this, and the worst ever something, is just to ask about results.

How did we end up better than anyone predicted?

We didn't. What you post is not true.

The Cats started the season ranked in the AP poll 10th and in the coaches poll 9th. That is a collective vote from a lot of someones. The Cats are currently unranked. Massive underperformance.

Don't like polls?

The Cats started off KenPom #8 and are currently #16 (and trending down). Don't like KenPom? The same thing holds for every other computer/stats based team ranking system.

The Cats in the preseason media poll were predicted to finish 5th in the B12. They finished tied for 3rd. 1 game out of 5th. While they, barely, outperformed that prediction, they have underperformed everything else anyone predicted.

No one here would have predicted a complete and utter bagel OOC. Nor 11 losses before the B12 tournament even started.

JMJ says no one said Tommy was average but me. First that is inaccurate

It is? It's in the other thread? Quote a post and link the page it is on. It certainly won't be from me.

Lloyd did a shitty job putting this roster together. Worse than shitty actually. As of today he is better than an average coach however and the fact that he coached these misfits to a tie for 3rd in conference is reflective of that.

If you don't think results are a counter point to Mr. Winger and JMJ then ...

Which results?

All those are facts

No they are not.

See above.

[Winger]

I wasn’t wrong on Miller.

Neither was I. Course I wasn't financially dependent on info from his regime nor the lackey boosters he was smart enough to invite over for dinner weekly.

What follows isn't for the faint of heart so skip ahead if there is a weapon close by.

As you know I was the biggest Tommy Lloyd guy on the planet prior to his hire. When asked for other names by the Arizona AD during the last couple weeks of the hiring process I wouldn't give them any, told them to stop fucking around with Damon and to not get within 100 meters of Muss, and that they already had the guy; and to be patient wait for Gonzaga to lose or win the tournament and get him inked.

But I am spooked by this season. And, to be honest, a little by the NCAAT results to date.

If you remember I was spooked early on by Miller's teams as well.

I could cast aside the meh of season 1, being that it was season 1, and pre-free-transfer era. Especially when he came right back with 30-8 and a couple 3FGA from a Final Four. And that glorious 2nd half vs Duke where he took K's underwear off.

But damn season 3 we have an abject disaster, and I am watching guys like Josiah, Krylylryl, Perry, and Mayes and the complete eval whiff on Chol and it ends up in a shitty season and a double digit trouncing to fucking Bucknell in the 1st round of the NIT -- the NIT !! -- at home in front of a half full stadium.

At that point I was like WTF. Miller's teams can't shoot, he can't recruit a PG to PGU, and all the defense and freaking out and sweating on the sideline isn't making me feel any better.

But of course we had some nice pieces in NJ, Hill and Parrom; and of course that awesome recruiting class of Bash, Tarc, Jerrett to give us hope that Miller could recruit his way out of it and; after 1 mid season of playing a transfer 2 at the 1, the following season the GOAT becomes eligible and we bring in another couple studs in Gordon and Hollis and we run the OOC and the Pac and are a possession away from the Final Four.

And I was like, fine, we got this, even the great coaches take some time to get it rolling and we are rolling. And we bring in Stanley and its another OOC and Pac season run of destruction and Great Eight and I'm pissed and I see holes in Miller's systems but you can't argue with the results.

And those actually are results.

But in the shadows there's PJC, bless him, but that bugs. That's the PG Miller king of the recruiting world chooses to tie his kayak to? Really?

And the next season I am watching York City chuck, a guy named Anderson who -- for Sean fucking Miller -- can't stick to his shadow defensively, Simon, Comanche, and Tollefson who prior to arrival Miller famously said was RHJ and Gordon wrapped in to the same player and I was twerking before that was a thing.

And then the bottom falls out of Miller's recruiting and he is reaching for guys like Alkins and Kobe and starting to look overseas and it all fell apart and slowly imploded in a mess of recruiting failures and transfer who couldn't play and Miller getting so desperate he hired a former player who tweeted for his head to be an assistant, the jumping the shark moment for me when I knew it was over for sure.

I don't have the same level of bug now but as I have posted ad nauseum -- this off season is a big one.

[JMarkJohns]

Regarding Miller, a few things.

Season 3 was what it was because Kevin Parrom was shot and had his athleticism stripped. He was rated as the highest ranked NBA prospect on the team, and had drop foot for half a year after that incident. Junior Parrom and Hill would have been awesome healthy, but Miller did whiff a lot on big men early. Sidiki, Chol, Victor. Can argue Jerrett a bit, too.

But what I will say is despite it ultimately being the thing that derailed him, Miller tried hard and changed focus on what type of recruits to try to find that right combo. Went from largely high motor athletes with defense and some offense to largely offensive players by the end. 2015 was probably the closest thing to a perfect combination of the prospect types.

Went from Multi-Year to One N Dones to Internationals and had success with all of them to varying degrees.

The one thing that bothers me is how badly Miller is kicking Lloyd’s ass on Internationals. Like, Veesaar might not be in a top-8 of Miller’s internationals.

And Miller just randomly decided to make it happen. Dusan To Lauri To Ayton To Green To Mathurin to Tubelis. No prior connections like Lloyd. Just made it happen.

Someone was like “Lloyd’s a great recruiter! He was lead for Chet and Suggs!”

Then fucking do it again!

Anyways. Whatever.

[dmjcat]

I do in fact believe Tommy Lloyd has forgotten a lot about basketball.

That’s a fact

Its amazing. You are obviously a basketball savant yet you waste your time on message boards instead of actually coaching the game.

Tell us, why did you leave Wildcat Authority to shower your genius upon us??? Were the posters on WA pretty much fed up with your fanboy bullshit too???

[TheCat]

First of all my counter to this constant narrative of no this, no that ,could be better at this, and the worst ever something, is just to ask about results.

How did we end up better than anyone predicted?

We didn't. What you post is not true.

The Cats started the season ranked in the AP poll 10th and in the coaches poll 9th. That is a collective vote from a lot of someones. The Cats are currently unranked. Massive underperformance.

Don't like polls?

The Cats started off KenPom #8 and are currently #16 (and trending down). Don't like KenPom? The same thing holds for every other computer/stats based team ranking system.

The Cats in the preseason media poll were predicted to finish 5th in the B12. They finished tied for 3rd. 1 game out of 5th. While they, barely, outperformed that prediction, they have underperformed everything else anyone predicted.

No one here would have predicted a complete and utter bagel OOC. Nor 11 losses before the B12 tournament even started.

JMJ says no one said Tommy was average but me. First that is inaccurate

It is? It's in the other thread? Quote a post and link the page it is on. It certainly won't be from me.

Lloyd did a shitty job putting this roster together. Worse than shitty actually. As of today he is better than an average coach however and the fact that he coached these misfits to a tie for 3rd in conference is reflective of that.

If you don't think results are a counter point to Mr. Winger and JMJ then ...

Which results?

All those are facts

No they are not.

See above.

WOW....thanks for the update on the inaccuracy of first of the season polls. They mean NOTHING.....let me say it again....they mean nothing. Want proof. Maybe talk to number 1 rated Kansas (not rated) or talk to number 2 rated UCONN who by the way lost their first 3 games in Maui at least one to an unranked team. Want more.....do the homework yourself. You got to do better than 1st of seasons polls Winger it is beneath even you.

Do you know how KenPom starts it's initial polls.......do you. Look it up and look up when even THEY say their polls start to be accurate. It would be much more appropriate to point out our defensive drop in the last 3 weeks (huge) if you want to use Ken Pom. Learn something then we can talk. You are dismissed.

I assume you think recruiting is part of coaching and how can a coach be good when according to you "Lloyd did a shitty job putting this roster together. Worse than shitty actually." This is where result come in......let me say it very slow because you are having a lot of trouble following along. Of course you could be making the argument that recruiting is not part of coaching. That would just be contrary to your 20 pages of monotonous drone.

One last thing.....you go read the 24-25 thread and tell me where it is. Hint.....look near the start of the season where many freaking out and saying we weren't likely to make the tournament. Or just say I was trying to "command the moment". I don't even know what that means but I'm sure it is accurate

You are another one who does not like to be challenged on your opinions because your own opinion of yourself is beyond reproach. Remember the little statement I have great confidence in my player evaluations. WOW. I trust our coaches but glad to see you have unfounded confidence.

I think you should just come to the conclusion that it is not worth your time or effort replying or if you must have the last word go ahead and I will heade my own advice. Thanks for the initial poll and KenPom lessons. LOL.

[JMarkJohns]

I do in fact believe Tommy Lloyd has forgotten a lot about basketball.

That’s a fact

Its amazing. You are obviously a basketball savant yet you waste your time on message boards instead of actually coaching the game.

Tell us, why did you leave Wildcat Authority to shower your genius upon us??? Were the posters on WA pretty much fed up with your fanboy bullshit too???

LMAO, I posted there like 50x today and have immense support. I also don’t need support. I was an island for 10 years from 2004 to 2014 on SpursTalk as a Suns fan to the tune of 20k posts. So, you’re paddling upstream to make me feel useless.

[Frybry02]

With all the discussion on the poor roster construction and recruiting misses, it is crazy to think how much worse this team could have been if love didn’t come back.

Sanon was inefficient. 42%\38% and more turnovers than assists

Philips couldn’t get on the floor.

Replace Love and ADO with Sanon and Phillips and this team isn’t any better. could Phillips and Sanon improve? Of course but who says they would even be around after 2-3 years. You could argue that both would have been 2 more recruiting misses if they came. All hypothetical…

[Lando05]

I do in fact believe Tommy Lloyd has forgotten a lot about basketball.

That’s a fact

Its amazing. You are obviously a basketball savant yet you waste your time on message boards instead of actually coaching the game.

Tell us, why did you leave Wildcat Authority to shower your genius upon us??? Were the posters on WA pretty much fed up with your fanboy bullshit too???

We are lucky to have JMark, TuconClip, and Winger post here.

[JMarkJohns]

I do in fact believe Tommy Lloyd has forgotten a lot about basketball.

That’s a fact

Its amazing. You are obviously a basketball savant yet you waste your time on message boards instead of actually coaching the game.

Tell us, why did you leave Wildcat Authority to shower your genius upon us??? Were the posters on WA pretty much fed up with your fanboy bullshit too???

Main scout, Eric Bossi, of 24/7 just casually dropped that my contributions are “very bright” and also Combative and that he enjoys a good provocateur, which he says I’m a very good one.

So, yeah, WildcatAuthority hates me.

Such timing.

[Chicat]

With all the discussion on the poor roster construction and recruiting misses, it is crazy to think how much worse this team could have been if love didn’t come back.

Sanon was inefficient. 42%\38% and more turnovers than assists

Philips couldn’t get on the floor.

Replace Love and ADO with Sanon and Phillips and this team isn’t any better. could Phillips and Sanon improve? Of course but who says they would even be around after 2-3 years. You could argue that both would have been 2 more recruiting misses if they came. All hypothetical…

I feel like Lloyd could coach them up better than Hurley, but you’re right that nothing is guaranteed. But the idea is there that Lloyd could either improve or cover for whatever freshman deficiencies they might have exhibited while Hurley is too busy being mad about everything to coach anyone.

[Alieberman]

Man… usually we don’t get to this level of arguing until we get bounced from the tournament

We are stepping up…

[Winger]

Man… usually we don’t get to this level of arguing until we get bounced from the tournament

We are stepping up…

Imo it largely stems from the team’s play tanking of late.

By Arizona standards, Arizona has lost a lot of games, 5 of our last 8. And, the best win is vs Baylor, a meh team this season who was .500 in conference.

For this particular season, for many fans, that tanking has worn the shine of the 13-1 run that came between the lousy OOC performance (which ended with an abject collapse against a significantly limited UCLA team) and the current tanking.

We can no longer post, “Lloyd is 12-1 starting ADO!” And have switched to, “how the hell is ADO in an Arizona uniform?”

We could all use a good B12 and NCAA tournament and then some plainly obvious good news based on legit prep and transfer commits.

If you throw out transition seasons when everyone knew Arizona was going to suck, how many times have the Cats lost 5 of 8 games in any stretch?

When that happens, unless we have all simply given up, some eggs are gonna get broke. Or, at least that has how I have observed since about 2003 when I first started using Arizona sports internet message boards.

Also, since we have been through a lot of this, if Arizona tanks it way out of the postseason, I bet many will conclude that that was to be expected and the negative posting may end up being limited as we switch to looking forward to the offseason and next year.

[JMarkJohns]

I always knew there would be a few more losses in the Big12. Losing at Kansas, while a winnable game, it’s understandable. Losing a tough match at home vs Houston, while a winnable game, it’s understandable. Same at Tech/Iowa State. Losing at Kansas State sucked the air out of the room for me, followed by playing so iffy it allowed yourself to be Padilla’d vs BYU at McKale.

Tommy’s teams since season 2 have always had an inexplicable February swoon, losing to teams they simply have no business losing to.

Some of it is by that point there is plenty of video to gameplan for Tommy, who, let’s be honest, makes like 3 adjustments all season.

Some of it is fatigue, because Tommy roles pretty thin from a depth standpoint, especially at important positions, and it takes its toll, especially on two-way players like Bradley.

Some of it is Tommy’s stubbornness with certain players, from a lack of accountability standpoint like Krissa, Boswell, Lewis, to his “my dudes” aspect that sees more productive and fresher players take backseats or get roles squeezed as Tommy prioritizes certain other players.

We all said Ballo should have had a few minutes shaved off and Krivas a bigger role last season, especially since Ballo was so out of shape to start the year. We said similar with Bradley late when Boswell was garbage. And Paulius went from a 5-7 mpg role shooting 50% from range to no role whatsoever.

This season it’s Trey limiting Carter, arguably ADO as well since Bryant should be playing both SF and PF. Less depth this season, but, yeah…

Tommy needs to role 9 deep with a 10th early on. This means more facilitators. More shooters. More athletes. More two-way players. It means no more walk-ons on Scholarship.

Have a few more looks via a few more players and fresher players for February and March.

It’s a good thing to not be 100% predictable, which is the exact critique Sampson leveled on 1-seed Arizona in year one.

[Chicat]

WOW....thanks for the update on the inaccuracy of first of the season polls. They mean NOTHING.....let me say it again....they mean nothing. Want proof. Maybe talk to number 1 rated Kansas (not rated) or talk to number 2 rated UCONN who by the way lost their first 3 games in Maui at least one to an unranked team.

Are you trying to say that Kansas and UCONN didn’t underachieve? Because… c’mon man…

[MrKyle]

I really do not understand the hatred towards JMJ and Winger - we are lucky to have informed and thoughtful posters like them and others (TucsonClip etc) on here.

Calling them fan boys is amateur. People can disagree with points and have a spirited discussion without regressing to throwing out insults.

I'm in agreement that the recent slide these last few weeks has soured a lot of people on the team (myself included). It looked like Lloyd had figured out how to best utilize our roster after our tough start to the season, but then we hit high level competition again and started backsliding.

The erosion of talent and roster construction under Lloyd is what is a red flag on my side, and one that I think needs to be addressed very soon.

Lloyd has shown he can coach up players he has, but when the baseline talent is not up to snuff for high D1 basketball, that will only last/work for so long and against certain levels of competition.

[Merkin]

We are lucky to have JMark, TuconClip, and Winger post here.

I have been watching college BB for over 50 years, and still learning from those 3.

When Clip starts breaking down the games, I get the same expression on my face when Dove starts talking stocks and bonds. Have to reread them several times.

Dude has to be a coach.

[gronk4heisman]

I will talk nuanced discussion from Clip, Winger and JMark any day over the constant "we can't do anything because of NIL so the coaches hands are tied" talk of other posters or the "its the fans fault" postings of others.

[UAEebs86]

I will talk nuanced discussion from Clip, Winger and JMark any day over the constant "we can't do anything because of NIL so the coaches hands are tied" talk of other posters or the "its the fans fault" postings of others.

Amen brother

[JMarkJohns]

Arizona has a top-20 NIL by most accounts. Now, it’s not linear and the difference twixt top-5 and top-20 could be a million or more.

This far Tommy has done several things with NIL. He’s been diplomatic and given everyone a base higher than maybe certain players deserved. And he’s prioritized retaining one or two players a season or going after 1-2 Transfers per season with it. He hasn’t welcomed any bidding wars until Peat and Burries. He’s been bullied by opposing NIL multiple times over the years because he flat refused to break from his norms. Now he is to a good degree, so we will see how it works.

With Bryce James, and the LeBron/Clutch connection, and maybe Iguodala Jr and the Andre connection, that could generate more NIL upside. A few strategic NIL generating events with them in attendance and who knows.

Arizona was the first basketball program to have its NBA players earn 1 Billion Dollars. It has several on large contracts right now. But the next wave is looking pretty thin thanks to the type of players being brought in by Tommy. So a short term boost could help to generate long-term stability from potential player donations.

[Winger]

When Clip starts breaking down the games, I get the same expression on my face when Dove starts talking stocks and bonds. Have to reread them several times.

Dude has to be a coach.

Clip's breakdowns are killer and the most amazing thing about them to me is that he does them real time off of notes he takes during games. I have to rewatch/rewind a possession at least 2-3 times until I figure out what went down. We are all limited because we don't know exactly what Lloyd wanted player X to do in situation Y versus player Z (and because you can't see the entire 1/2 court) but you can seem some things that are real. I don't know if Clip was a coach but I do know he has worked for a living breaking down "film".

Lots of things I miss about WA but Clip's breakdowns are right at the top of the list.

[azcat49]

I will talk nuanced discussion from Clip, Winger and JMark any day over the constant "we can't do anything because of NIL so the coaches hands are tied" talk of other posters or the "its the fans fault" postings of others.

Abso freaking lutely. No contest. Board is much better with these guys here

[TheCat]

[/quote]

Winger, TucsonClip, these are some of the smartest basketball minds I have read beyond my own commentary. All three of us are aligned on things being worse than results bandaid, recruiting being worse than results bandaid, and upside being sacrificed for convenience.


[/quote]

WOW that doesn't sound conceited at all. Glad they are the smartest basketball minds BEYOND your own. You're just very full of yourself and and as Winger reminded us many times confident in your ability to analyse players. Maybe get a paying job in the field is in your future. I think that sums it up for us mere mortals. Lucky to have you talented guys opinions. Sorry to include you in this trifecta TucsonClip.

[TheCat]

I do in fact believe Tommy Lloyd has forgotten a lot about basketball.

That’s a fact

Its amazing. You are obviously a basketball savant yet you waste your time on message boards instead of actually coaching the game.

Tell us, why did you leave Wildcat Authority to shower your genius upon us??? Were the posters on WA pretty much fed up with your fanboy bullshit too???

Main scout, Eric Bossi, of 24/7 just casually dropped that my contributions are “very bright” and also Combative and that he enjoys a good provocateur, which he says I’m a very good one.

So, yeah, WildcatAuthority hates me.

Such timing.

Impressive.....

[JMarkJohns]

Winger, TucsonClip, these are some of the smartest basketball minds I have read beyond my own commentary. All three of us are aligned on things being worse than results bandaid, recruiting being worse than results bandaid, and upside being sacrificed for convenience.


[/quote]

WOW that doesn't sound conceited at all. Glad they are the smartest basketball minds BEYOND your own. You're just very full of yourself and and as Winger reminded us many times confident in your ability to analyse players. Maybe get a paying job in the field is in your future. I think that sums it up for us mere mortals. Lucky to have you talented guys opinions. Sorry to include you in this trifecta TucsonClip.
[/quote]

I transcended a job in the field. Had them. Now I fundraise and fix non-profits. Because I know communication, salesmanship, relationship building, and fine-tuning through critical analysis of what is and isn’t working. I work with clients from west coast to Midwest and have gigantic corporate partners.

It’s OK to be smart beyond a specific.

[TheCat]

WOW....thanks for the update on the inaccuracy of first of the season polls. They mean NOTHING.....let me say it again....they mean nothing. Want proof. Maybe talk to number 1 rated Kansas (not rated) or talk to number 2 rated UCONN who by the way lost their first 3 games in Maui at least one to an unranked team.

Are you trying to say that Kansas and UCONN didn’t underachieve? Because… c’mon man…

Not at all. I'm simply pointing out early pools are built on speculation and are highly inaccurate. We lost 80% of our starting lineup so it was compounded.
I also pointed out that initial KenPom polls are inaccurate and they acknowledge that fact. There are a few studies that I am aware of that show statistical how bad they are but these studies are centered around the league the folks that write them follow.

[JMarkJohns]

I do in fact believe Tommy Lloyd has forgotten a lot about basketball.

That’s a fact

Its amazing. You are obviously a basketball savant yet you waste your time on message boards instead of actually coaching the game.

Tell us, why did you leave Wildcat Authority to shower your genius upon us??? Were the posters on WA pretty much fed up with your fanboy bullshit too???

Main scout, Eric Bossi, of 24/7 just casually dropped that my contributions are “very bright” and also Combative and that he enjoys a good provocateur, which he says I’m a very good one.

So, yeah, WildcatAuthority hates me.

Such timing.

Impressive.....

LMAO… it wasn’t meant to be impressive. It was meant to highlight the irony of his post saying WildcatAuthority was tired of me, and the main editor of the entire network drops in to compliment my analysis and provocative post style highlighting it with “message board threads should be fun like this”…

So, this is one of them “meet assholes all day you’re the asshole” moments of why ain’t you having fun like all the others?

By the way, I love this shit. There’s no world where I ever backdown in these types of things. Might be blindeyed sometimes, but I’m a fucking shark smelling the blood soaked waters.

[TheCat]

I think Eric Bossi is good at what he does. So it was impressive.

[Lando05]

I will talk nuanced discussion from Clip, Winger and JMark any day over the constant "we can't do anything because of NIL so the coaches hands are tied" talk of other posters or the "its the fans fault" postings of others.

2nd amen brother

[Winger]

I'm simply pointing out early pools are built on speculation and are highly inaccurate.

I also pointed out that initial KenPom polls are inaccurate

You posted that Arizona had "outperformed everyone's expectations".

I showed you two different sets of objective data to show that what you posted was false. And some subjective data to show that what you posted was not true.

Arizona has not outperformed everyone's expectations (to date) this season.

Here is another one:

Coach Tommy Lloyd when Arizona was ranked in the Top 10 a couple games in: "we're better team than that", or something to that effect.

And as of now the Cats are threatening to underperform even your modest expectation, posted midseason for the record, of a 6-seed/backend top 25 team.

[Merkin]

Coach Tommy Lloyd when Arizona was ranked in the Top 10 a couple games in: "we're better team than that", or something to that effect.

I remember him saying that after destroying Old Dominion by 58. Cats were ranked 9th or 10th and Tommy thought they should be ranked higher.

Then they met Wisconsin. Then Duke...

[Postmaster]

Coach Tommy Lloyd when Arizona was ranked in the Top 10 a couple games in: "we're better team than that", or something to that effect.

I remember him saying that after destroying Old Dominion by 58. Cats were ranked 9th or 10th and Tommy thought they should be ranked higher.

Then they met Wisconsin. Then Duke...

Whiskey then Puke. A common college theme.

[dovecanyoncat]

Coach Tommy Lloyd when Arizona was ranked in the Top 10 a couple games in: "we're better team than that", or something to that effect.

I remember him saying that after destroying Old Dominion by 58. Cats were ranked 9th or 10th and Tommy thought they should be ranked higher.

Then they met Wisconsin. Then Duke...

Whiskey the Puke. A common college theme.

Yes, but just for the sake of pedantry, there's:
whiskey .... bourbon
whisky .... ambrosia made by Scots
wiscy .... the puke, bilge, swill, vomit, pustulence, emesis, issuing from any institution related to Bo Ryan

[TucsonClip]

We are lucky to have JMark, TuconClip, and Winger post here.

I have been watching college BB for over 50 years, and still learning from those 3.

When Clip starts breaking down the games, I get the same expression on my face when Dove starts talking stocks and bonds. Have to reread them several times.

Dude has to be a coach.

Never even considered it. Any lower level id pull my hair out. Any high-ish level and I'd get sick of the hours. I just need a place to vent for an hour per day.

[TucsonClip]

When Clip starts breaking down the games, I get the same expression on my face when Dove starts talking stocks and bonds. Have to reread them several times.

Dude has to be a coach.

Clip's breakdowns are killer and the most amazing thing about them to me is that he does them real time off of notes he takes during games. I have to rewatch/rewind a possession at least 2-3 times until I figure out what went down. We are all limited because we don't know exactly what Lloyd wanted player X to do in situation Y versus player Z (and because you can't see the entire 1/2 court) but you can seem some things that are real. I don't know if Clip was a coach but I do know he has worked for a living breaking down "film".

Lots of things I miss about WA but Clip's breakdowns are right at the top of the list.

I used to go back and rewatch stuff in real time and catch up right after the half. Dumped cable about 6 years ago and haven't been able to rewind since. I don't enjoy rewatching games unless I'm going deep on a breakdown, or doing the grad transfer evals during the spring. Learning to watch the entire court, and not the ball, is an acquired skill I had to work on. It wasn't easy at first, but it's worth trying if you feel like it.

I definitely broke down film for bleacher report covering the Clippers, plus had a foray into scouting very early on, about 15 years ago. Even that got tiresome and I was only doing two articles per week. My favorite part was going from a Miller coached CBB game (A bit about Miller and a lot more about CBB in general) to a Clippers game immediately after, and having my eyes uncross during the first quarter

Appreciate all the love around here. Just hope we can take care of business the next two weeks. Fingers crossed for a third week.

[TheCat]

I'm simply pointing out early pools are built on speculation and are highly inaccurate.

I also pointed out that initial KenPom polls are inaccurate

You posted that Arizona had "outperformed everyone's expectations".

I showed you two different sets of objective data to show that what you posted was false. And some subjective data to show that what you posted was not true.

Arizona has not outperformed everyone's expectations (to date) this season.

Here is another one:

Coach Tommy Lloyd when Arizona was ranked in the Top 10 a couple games in: "we're better team than that", or something to that effect.

And as of now the Cats are threatening to underperform even your modest expectation, posted midseason for the record, of a 6-seed/backend top 25 team.

See Winger my projection weren't modest they were formed after watching the team. I think they will end up being fairly accurate don't you?. By the way they were made when we were rated much higher (fools gold).

Yes, I give, you are always right and the meaningless polls and initial KenPom are a serious matters based on nothing and created before a team has played a game.
I guess I should have said they exceeded the knowledgeable coaches and writers that follow the conference. My bad. I thought everyone knew that KenPom polls before a game is played means nothing and it has been argued they shouldn't even exist. But some people will believe anything if it supports their premise. So if this helps a poll of drunk frats indicated we will win the national championship during rush this year.
Think you keep digging the hole deeper especially when you downplayed any accomplishment this team achieved. Downplayed the 3rd place finish. You must hate Tommy or the Wildcats or simply trying to justify your narrative when the actual results don't. So carry on. I agree the Wildcats suck, Tommy can't recruit, You are a guru and a fantastic player evaluation expert and we wait with bated breath for you next post.

[dovecanyoncat]

When Clip starts breaking down the games, I get the same expression on my face when Dove starts talking stocks and bonds. Have to reread them several times.

Dude has to be a coach.

Clip's breakdowns are killer and the most amazing thing about them to me is that he does them real time off of notes he takes during games. I have to rewatch/rewind a possession at least 2-3 times until I figure out what went down. We are all limited because we don't know exactly what Lloyd wanted player X to do in situation Y versus player Z (and because you can't see the entire 1/2 court) but you can seem some things that are real. I don't know if Clip was a coach but I do know he has worked for a living breaking down "film".

Lots of things I miss about WA but Clip's breakdowns are right at the top of the list.

I used to go back and rewatch stuff in real time and catch up right after the half. Dumped cable about 6 year ago and haven't been able to rewind since. I don't enjoy rewatching games unless I'm going deep on a breakdown, or doing the grad transfer evals during the spring.

I definitely broke down film for bleacher report covering the Clippers, plus had a foray into scouting very early on, about 15 years ago. Even that got tiresome and I was only doing two articles per week. My favorite part was going from a Miller coached CBB game (A bit about Miller and a lot more about CBB in general) to a Clippers game immediately after, and having my eyes uncross during the first quarter

Appreciate all the love around here. Just hope we can take care of business the next two weeks. Fingers crossed for a third week.

I've always thought your breakdowns were like the technical analysis of a financial assets trader/investor. That's fuckin' nails. To be able to balance that analysis-in-a-vacuum with personal life opinions about our team and the game in general is an important addition that I appreciate as well. You got both. Stick the fuck around man, just for our sakes. Thanks.

[Winger]

I'm simply pointing out early pools are built on speculation and are highly inaccurate.

I also pointed out that initial KenPom polls are inaccurate

You posted that Arizona had "outperformed everyone's expectations".

I showed you two different sets of objective data to show that what you posted was false. And some subjective data to show that what you posted was not true.

Arizona has not outperformed everyone's expectations (to date) this season.

Here is another one:

Coach Tommy Lloyd when Arizona was ranked in the Top 10 a couple games in: "we're better team than that", or something to that effect.

And as of now the Cats are threatening to underperform even your modest expectation, posted midseason for the record, of a 6-seed/backend top 25 team.

Yes, I give, you are always right and the meaningless polls and initial KenPom are a serious matters based on nothing and created before a team has played a game.

I guess I should have said they exceeded the knowledgeable coaches and writers that follow the conference. My bad. I thought everyone knew that KenPom polls before a game is played means nothing and it has been argued they shouldn't even exist.

The preseason AP poll is actually pretty good. Especially if you keep it to the top 10 teams. Which Arizona was this season. Even more especially if you keep it to the #1 team. It's pretty good at identifying Final Four teams as well. It isn't very good but it's pretty good and it is the best thing we have preseason, as an aside.

KenPom preseason also isn't useless. I know you have never looked at preseason and end of season KenPom to see how his ratings hold up but I have. At least for the top 20 and especially for Arizona. Teams usually finish up reasonably close to where his computer started them. With a good postseason run Arizona still can for the record.

I know why you prop the B12 preseason poll but do you know how many teams it whiffed on?

Kansas, ISU, Cinci, and Baylor to the downside. BYU and Texas Tech to the upside in particular.

Arizona, to date, has underperformed many people's expectation, including our head coach, and the computers. I am guessing the same holds for 90+% of Arizona's fans, whom I would speculate would not have believed preseason that we'd be unranked heading in to conference tournament play.

What has transpired is the true opposite of what you posted. Arizona obviously did not "exceed everyone's expectations".

And even for the B12 preseason poll the Cats just barely exceeded expectation. By 1 game/finish position. The smallest margin possible.

[PHXCATS]

After thinking about it I don't think Lloyd was talking about fans at all last week

Think it was all to the athletic department