Who's staying? Who's going?

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:16 am

Zeus coming back would be huge. Don't know how anyone can argue otherwise. He comes back, we are probably a preseason top 10 team again or close to it. Without him, we have a lot of depth questions at the post and are in a world of hurt whenever a post player gets in foul trouble.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:21 am

Chicat wrote:
Daryl Zero wrote:Smith is doing fine.
His father said that he's pretty close to 100% right now and at this point it's all about shaking the rust off his basketball skills.

I'll take that over dmjcat's rampant and irresponsible speculation.

He'll have well over a year to get back from the ACL. If his surgery and rehab were good, that is plenty of time to get into game shape.

The jump from a junior thing is a little silly. Does anyone honestly think his senior year of high school is going to transition into college better than his junior year?

Biggest and best thing for all the freshmen is to get onto campus asap and into weights and running against college level competition.

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:53 am

Zeus is the difference next year between us being a legitimate contender for a Final 4 and.... not.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:00 am

Alieberman wrote:Zeus is the difference next year between us being a legitimate contender for a Final 4 and.... not.

Ehhhh, I don't know. We will still be really young across the board. I still want Zeus back though. We are going to need his defense like you wouldn't believe.

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:06 am

Chicat wrote:
Alieberman wrote:Zeus is the difference next year between us being a legitimate contender for a Final 4 and.... not.
Ehhhh, I don't know. We will still be really young across the board. I still want Zeus back though. We are going to need his defense like you wouldn't believe.

I'm not saying Zeus + next year's really young roster = we should be expecting a run at the final 4 like the past 2 years.

I'm just saying- No Zeus = No Chance.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:09 am

In addition to Tarc's defense, his experience would be invaluable. Anderson will be experienced, but not in a tourney sense. Either way, Arizona is too young and patched together to expect a contender. It's inevitable and okay to have transition years. I actually think we need a break from being a contender. Alieberman is right - Tarc makes Arizona dangerous nonetheless.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:13 am

Chicat wrote:
Alieberman wrote:Zeus is the difference next year between us being a legitimate contender for a Final 4 and.... not.
Ehhhh, I don't know. We will still be really young across the board. I still want Zeus back though. We are going to need his defense like you wouldn't believe.

Absolutely. He runs the floor very well, and is always in the right spot. Ristic can't do either of those things yet, and neither will true freshman Commanche.

Zeus needs another year to show he can finally have a face up game, along with a better back to the basket game. Also be able to not give career games to other centers. Every NBA scout saw that Zeus was not assigned Kaminsky, and that after he gave up 17/10 to a slow fat player like Stainbrook. Also be able to get a rebound in traffic, not bring the ball down to dunk, and not have crisp passes bounce off his hands.

pokinmik · Post by **pokinmik** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:26 am

Was Michigan State expected to be a legit contender this year? Fuck no.

Next year's team can get hot at the right time or gel really well or get a lucky draw/break in the tourney. It's silly to think we'll know what next year's team can do based on the roster sheet. Call me too optimistic if you like but I think we always have a chance at the whole damn thing with Miller entering his prime at the helm.

PS I think Tarc returns and I agree with Alieb, we will be stout if that happens.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:30 am

I think we have gotten spoiled these last two years and gotten into the habit of associating "dominant" with contender.. These last two teams on paper were giants, and on the court most of the time, were giants as well. They were two teams that would be considered among the all-time top Arizona teams had the ball bounced our way in two elite eights.

That 2011 Derrick Williams team was a contender. That team was one shot and/or Derrick Williams getting taken out of the game early from being a final four team. The team it lost to won a national championship. Outside of the obvious (next year's team does not have a Derrick Williams), what does that 2011 team have that this 2015-16 on paper does not have? Of course we have to see the product on the floor, but with Zeus if he comes back; a guy who has proven to produce at a high level in the ACC in Anderson; York who really emerged as a dangerous scorer/shooter down the stretch; PCJ who was not TJ by any stretch but put up numbers similar to TJ's if you adjusted for minutes; plus Allen, Pitts, and Ristic who will all probably be solid bench players; and the best or second best (so far) incoming class; who is to say that team is not going to be very very good, at least as talented as that 2011 team?

We won't be the same defensively. We wont be MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE like we have been. Just like the beginning of this year, we will have to see who the Alpha of the group is. I fully expect us to compete for a Pac-12 crown again next year, though the separation from the rest of the PAC will not be as drastic. Again, we have been spoiled. I think it is realistic to expect next year's team to be in that 3-5 seed range. Based on what we have seen with Miller's teams, I fully expect next year's team to be tournament ready and peaking at the right time. We have gotten some bad lucky in the tournament under Miller, but one thing is for certain, luck will change at some point and Miller has always gotten his tournament teams here to the sweet 16 or further. We will have the pieces to make another run next year.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:33 am

Michigan State is a lot of upper classmen, though. I think all of their starters are juniors and older. With a senior York as 6th man, Anderson helps and obviously so would Tarc, but Arizona would be led by a sophomore pg in his first year at the helm, and probably two freshmen. To me it all has the feel of developing and gaining experience.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:38 am

"Outside of the obvious (next year's team does not have a Derrick Williams), what does that 2011 team have that this 2015-16 on paper does not have?"

----------------------------

Ray Smith could possibly be almost as good as a sophomore Derick Williams, and that's not asschalk.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:38 am

Longhorned wrote:"Outside of the obvious (next year's team does not have a Derrick Williams), what does that 2011 team have that this 2015-16 on paper does not have?"

----------------------------

Ray Smith could possibly be almost as good as a sophomore Derick Williams, and that's not asschalk.

Yes, Smith's injury has people sleeping on him.

az91 · Post by **az91** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:43 am

Longhorned wrote:2
Trier
York
Allen
Simon
Pitts

3
Smith
Simon
Allen
Pitts

I don't care what Tarc says - Allen is a complete and total mystery. Current players can hype up a redshirt player to help with his transfer. The question isn't whether Allen or Pitts will transfer. The question is whether both of them will. There's not a minute to be had at the 2 after Trier and York, and if there is, it's Simon's. The only time available at the 3 is for when Smith is on the bench and Simon is at the 2, which may not ever happen.

You think Allen would transfer after completing a redshirt year?

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:44 am

Merkin wrote:Zeus needs another year to show he can finally have a face up game, along with a better back to the basket game. Also be able to not give career games to other centers. Every NBA scout saw that Zeus was not assigned Kaminsky, and that after he gave up 17/10 to a slow fat player like Stainbrook. Also be able to get a rebound in traffic, not bring the ball down to dunk, and not have crisp passes bounce off his hands.

People talk about 'Well, wouldn't a team at least draft an athletic 7 footer in the second round' type stuff, but when I think about the NBA and the draft how you've laid it out is how I think about it. That is, all the 4/5s in the NBA are at least as good as Stainbrook and most of them are more like Kaminsky level size/talent, so looking at how Zeus matches up with them in these specific games is important as far as giving NBA GMs a feel for how he would do in the NBA.

I don't think one has to be a rocket scientist or a hard core statistician or a twenty year NBA scout to see that it's not a great situation. Defensively, offensively, rebounding...it's just tough to figure out where the value is there as far as getting useful minutes that will help you win games.

That said I'd love to see Zeus back to anchor us for his senior year and to keep working on his game.

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:48 am

Longhorned wrote:Ray Smith could possibly be almost as good as a sophomore Derick Williams, and that's not asschalk.

That's a heck of a thing to say. Derick dominated most of the games he played as a sophomore.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:02 am

If you're an NBA GM, which guy do you like more, Zeus or Ashley?

Ashley is obviously a more complete player, but Zeus is a legit 7 footer with good athleticism.

catinfl · Post by **catinfl** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:12 am

Beachcat97 wrote:If you're an NBA GM, which guy do you like more, Zeus or Ashley?

Ashley is obviously a more complete player, but Zeus is a legit 7 footer with good athleticism.

Zeus. Worst case scenario he's an athletic big who can come off the bench and play some good D. IMO he fits the pro game a lot more than College. I'd rather have him than BA back next year.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:13 am

catinfl wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:If you're an NBA GM, which guy do you like more, Zeus or Ashley?

Ashley is obviously a more complete player, but Zeus is a legit 7 footer with good athleticism.
Zeus. Worst case scenario he's an athletic big who can come off the bench and play some good D. IMO he fits the pro game a lot more than College. I'd rather have him than BA back next year.

I'd be thrilled to have either of them back.

catinfl · Post by **catinfl** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:16 am

Beachcat97 wrote:
catinfl wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:If you're an NBA GM, which guy do you like more, Zeus or Ashley?

Ashley is obviously a more complete player, but Zeus is a legit 7 footer with good athleticism.
Zeus. Worst case scenario he's an athletic big who can come off the bench and play some good D. IMO he fits the pro game a lot more than College. I'd rather have him than BA back next year.
I'd be thrilled to have either of them back.

Same, but BA isn't coming back.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:19 am

splitsecond wrote:I love how Pitts had a couple brainfarts on defense and some of you people just assume he is transferring. I'm going to have to take a break from this stupidity for a while.

Love how people make wild inferences. It's speculation based on the collection of players on the roster. How do you see the guard minutes being distributed? I don't WANT him to go. But it's in the realm of the possible.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:25 am

gumby wrote:
splitsecond wrote:I love how Pitts had a couple brainfarts on defense and some of you people just assume he is transferring. I'm going to have to take a break from this stupidity for a while.
Love how people make wild inferences. It's speculation based on the collection of players on the roster. How do you see the guard minutes being distributed? I don't WANT him to go. But it's in the realm of the possible.

Yeah Gumby, but players play based on practices and how they perform on the floor, and really Pitts and York are the only ones with game experience that know the defense...both things Miller loves and rewards with playing time.

Anything is possible. Hell Grant Jerrett looked at the NBA and said, I'm ready.

azpenguin · Post by **azpenguin** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:29 am

catinfl wrote:Same, but BA isn't coming back.

The one thing I wonder is where they think he'd be drafted, since some are saying he's not on the board at this point. But if there's a glimmer at all for him to start making money, I see why he'd go for it, because that foot injury reminded him that anyone is one play away from losing their career.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:29 am

Beachcat97 wrote:If you're an NBA GM, which guy do you like more, Zeus or Ashley?

Ashley is obviously a more complete player, but Zeus is a legit 7 footer with good athleticism.

I'd take Ashley because I think you can turn him into a stretch four. His shot release is funky but high enough that he doesn't get blocked and he shoots a really nice ball with plenty of arc and backspin. Just put him in a gym every day moving his range further and further back and see what happens.

As far as Zeus, I think our defensive system does him no favors. I think he'd thrive in a zone. Nobody plays zone more than 10-20% of the time in the NBA, so then you have to start looking at match-ups. I love Kaleb. I think he's been a rock for this team. But in the NBA, I see him getting dunked on. A lot.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:31 am

Merkin wrote:
Chicat wrote:
Alieberman wrote:Zeus is the difference next year between us being a legitimate contender for a Final 4 and.... not.
Ehhhh, I don't know. We will still be really young across the board. I still want Zeus back though. We are going to need his defense like you wouldn't believe.
Absolutely. He runs the floor very well, and is always in the right spot. Ristic can't do either of those things yet, and neither will true freshman Commanche.

Zeus needs another year to show he can finally have a face up game, along with a better back to the basket game. Also be able to not give career games to other centers. Every NBA scout saw that Zeus was not assigned Kaminsky, and that after he gave up 17/10 to a slow fat player like Stainbrook. Also be able to get a rebound in traffic, not bring the ball down to dunk, and not have crisp passes bounce off his hands.

Why would Zeus take a year to show natural skills that are not in his wheelhouse? If he gets drafted, whether this year or next, it will be despite the fact he lacks great hands and the ability to move his feet on the perimeter.

It's not like your hands begin to flower into manhood in your senior year. He can improve, but his major liabilities are what they are. So are his strengths. I'm not trying to push him out the door, but I honestly think he stands to gain very little by returning.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:39 am

Kaleb has a 6'11" wingspan. RHJ measured a 7'0.5 wingspan at the 2014 Kevin Durant Skills Academy. Stanley Johnson 6'11.5 wingspan.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kal ... wski-6290/
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/rondae-hollis-jefferson
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/stanley-johnson

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:43 am

SJ and RHJ have insanely long arms. Kaleb's 1-1 height to wingspan is normal.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:49 am

Olsondogg wrote:
gumby wrote:
splitsecond wrote:I love how Pitts had a couple brainfarts on defense and some of you people just assume he is transferring. I'm going to have to take a break from this stupidity for a while.
Love how people make wild inferences. It's speculation based on the collection of players on the roster. How do you see the guard minutes being distributed? I don't WANT him to go. But it's in the realm of the possible.

Yeah Gumby, but players play based on practices and how they perform on the floor, and really Pitts and York are the only ones with game experience that know the defense...both things Miller loves and rewards with playing time.

Anything is possible. Hell Grant Jerrett looked at the NBA and said, I'm ready.

True, and that's certainly in his favor. Hard to see them all staying and playing and being happy. So, redshirts are another possibility at the guard position.

catinfl · Post by **catinfl** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:51 am

gumby wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:
gumby wrote:
splitsecond wrote:I love how Pitts had a couple brainfarts on defense and some of you people just assume he is transferring. I'm going to have to take a break from this stupidity for a while.
Love how people make wild inferences. It's speculation based on the collection of players on the roster. How do you see the guard minutes being distributed? I don't WANT him to go. But it's in the realm of the possible.

Yeah Gumby, but players play based on practices and how they perform on the floor, and really Pitts and York are the only ones with game experience that know the defense...both things Miller loves and rewards with playing time.

Anything is possible. Hell Grant Jerrett looked at the NBA and said, I'm ready.
True, and that's certainly in his favor. Hard to see them all staying and playing and being happy. So, redshirts are another possibility at the guard position.

Who's gonna red-shirt? Most kids aren't gonna red-shirt when they aren't positive there's gonna be playing time for them when the red-shirt year is over. They will transfer before that.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:04 pm

Agree. Tells me Allen is set.

catgrad97 · Post by **catgrad97** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:38 pm

I would say Smith or Simon would be the most likely redshirt candidates, then--not because of injuries but simply the need to be big enough to control the ball at this level.

That RS year is something neither Zeus nor Ashley ever had the luxury of experiencing, and it's why I don't put all their limitations at their doorstep.

OTOH, we're still going to have to overcome floppers, chicken-wingers, Eurosteppers and three-point chuckers to get our ultimate prize. Coming up with a suitable counter to those teams is not coming down to their level--it's Miller's next step.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:07 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:SJ and RHJ have insanely long arms. Kaleb's 1-1 height to wingspan is normal.

Normal attributes don't get you into the NBA. Elite length with oversized hands go a long way. As somebody who isn't NBA-centric, I'm fine with this.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:34 am

Longhorned wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:SJ and RHJ have insanely long arms. Kaleb's 1-1 height to wingspan is normal.
Normal attributes don't get you into the NBA. Elite length with oversized hands go a long way. As somebody who isn't NBA-centric, I'm fine with this.

For what it's worth, being 7 feet tall is the most abnormal attribute NBA teams covet.

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:23 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Longhorned wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:SJ and RHJ have insanely long arms. Kaleb's 1-1 height to wingspan is normal.
Normal attributes don't get you into the NBA. Elite length with oversized hands go a long way. As somebody who isn't NBA-centric, I'm fine with this.
For what it's worth, being 7 feet tall is the most abnormal attribute NBA teams covet.

Can't teach height.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:29 am

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/ ... n-america/

EOCT · Post by **EOCT** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:14 pm

Longhorned wrote:
mrqsjhnsnsux wrote:When TJ came off yesterday (obviously gone) it was hugs and tears with the coaches. Rondae came off, the same. Ash came off and just went to the bench. Zues stayed on the floor to the end. This has to mean Ash and Zues are both back.
Not necelery.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:25 am

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:32 am

That's a fair report on Zeus. They didn't mention his hand and difficulties playing in traffic and instead focused on numbers (low rebounding and lack of blocked shots, both of which weren't entirely his fault).

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:39 am

rgdeuce wrote:That's a fair report on Zeus. They didn't mention his hand and difficulties playing in traffic and instead focused on numbers (low rebounding and lack of blocked shots, both of which weren't entirely his fault).

I agree that they're not entirely his fault.

But still, one would be trying to make the argument that it's not entirely his fault that he's got the lowest per 40 in this category, and the second lowest in that category, and and and...

It's a tough sell. Hopefully it turns out ok.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:50 pm

Posted elsewhere too, but relevent here:

SCCats · Post by **SCCats** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:08 pm

Merkin wrote:Posted elsewhere too, but relevent here:

Interesting what's included/not included in that tweet.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:11 pm

Guys, everyone is gone from the starting five, except for maybe Zeus.

ZONACAT · Post by **ZONACAT** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:14 pm

Only need one to stay, don't care who really.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:32 pm

PJC
Gabe
Smith
Anderson
Ristic

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:35 pm

No way Trier doesn't start IMO.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:36 pm

Still waiting for an elite recruit to live up to the "game changing" hype they bring with them.

We have not found our Carmello Anthony yet. Could it be Trier?

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:43 pm

CalStateTempe wrote:Still waiting for an elite recruit to live up to the "game changing" hype they bring with them.

We have not found our Carmello Anthony yet. Could it be Trier?

Finally have some true scorers in Trier and Allen. Both will get their minutes. Last true scorer was Lyons.

PieceOfMeat · Post by **PieceOfMeat** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:18 pm

Merkin wrote:
CalStateTempe wrote:Still waiting for an elite recruit to live up to the "game changing" hype they bring with them.

We have not found our Carmello Anthony yet. Could it be Trier?

Finally have some true scorers in Trier and Allen. Both will get their minutes. Last true scorer was Lyons.

are they volume shooters? or accurate shooters?

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:34 pm

PieceOfMeat wrote:
Merkin wrote:
CalStateTempe wrote:Still waiting for an elite recruit to live up to the "game changing" hype they bring with them.

We have not found our Carmello Anthony yet. Could it be Trier?

Finally have some true scorers in Trier and Allen. Both will get their minutes. Last true scorer was Lyons.
are they volume shooters? or accurate shooters?

Just semantics, but they are more scorers than shooters. Pitts and York are shooters. Stanimal is more of a scorer. Trier and Allen are scorers.

Allen is an awful 3 point shooter though, hope he takes 10,000 3 point shots this summer.

PieceOfMeat · Post by **PieceOfMeat** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:36 pm

Merkin wrote:
PieceOfMeat wrote:
Merkin wrote:
CalStateTempe wrote:Still waiting for an elite recruit to live up to the "game changing" hype they bring with them.

We have not found our Carmello Anthony yet. Could it be Trier?

Finally have some true scorers in Trier and Allen. Both will get their minutes. Last true scorer was Lyons.
are they volume shooters? or accurate shooters?

Just semantics, but they are more scorers than shooters. Pitts and York are shooters. Stanimal is more of a scorer. Trier and Allen are scorers.

Allen is an awful 3 point shooter though, hope he takes 10,000 3 point shots this summer.

Ug. was hoping we'd get a bonafied shooter in the gym.

PieceOfMeat · Post by **PieceOfMeat** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:38 pm

Apparently Miller's going to UNC if they offer him the job.

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