2014-15 Season Thread

84Cat · Post by **84Cat** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:55 pm

This reffing is embarrassing.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:15 pm

84Cat wrote:This reffing is embarrassing.

I've only watched on and off, but this game is ugly as sin. So, advantage Cavs so far.

84Cat · Post by **84Cat** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:44 pm

Ugly, ugly game!

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:55 pm

84Cat wrote:Ugly, ugly game!

I'm shocked that the Cavs could do this to the Warriors. They have been insanely good on offense this year, and the Cavs are shutting them down so far.

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:57 pm

I know I should be rooting for Golden St and Kerr and Iggy.... But I'm marveling at how LeBron is willing his team right now

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:32 pm

This is insane. I don't understand how Cleveland is ahead. They've been falling apart for the whole 4th.

They're winning this on effort. Period.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:36 pm

Delladova is a junk player.

Not a foul on curry apparently.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:49 pm

That should've been GS ball.

How do you fix a game thats fixed? can't wait for the finals to be over, so I can return to a NBA hiatus.

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:50 pm

LeBron and the GOAZCATS all stars really up 2-1

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:52 pm

Wow. LeBron and effort. This is one of the most unique, unbelievable Finals ever so far.

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:55 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Wow. LeBron and effort. This is one of the most unique, unbelievable Finals ever so far.

I agree. Who would have thought that Deledova would be the difference in this series. How can you not love that guy?

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:03 pm

Alieberman wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:Wow. LeBron and effort. This is one of the most unique, unbelievable Finals ever so far.
I agree. Who would have thought that Deledova would be the difference in this series. How can you not love that guy?

If you'd told me before the series that they wouldn't get a full game from Kyrie, I would have thought they probably would have been swept. Dellevedova's been huge, but LeBron is the heart of everything they're doing. Dropping 40+ a game, averaging close to a triple double and still expending effort on D.

Delly, Thompson, Moz and Shumpert are all busting ass. Tons of respect to all of them. Delly tossing an fast break oop to LeBron in crunch time in the Finals? Is this real life?

UAEebs86 · Post by **UAEebs86** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:07 pm

CalStateTempe wrote:Delladova is a junk player.

Sean Miller compared TJ to him at his presser.

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:28 pm

UAEebs86 wrote:
CalStateTempe wrote:Delladova is a junk player.

Sean Miller compared TJ to him at his presser.

I can totally see it.

FreeSpiritCat · Post by **FreeSpiritCat** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:56 pm

No one can convince me that Michael Jordan isn't the best player of all time. His will to win is unmatched. The game where he scored 38 points on the road in game 5, with flu like symptoms, and won the game for the Bulls is unmatched. I highly doubt James could rise to that level. I have never seen another player with as much competitive spirit as Jordan.

JMarkJohns · Post by **JMarkJohns** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:24 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:To Jmark's post, I agree that Jordan could put up assist numbers. He put up good numbers when he was installed as very ball dominant under Collins. When he played in the triangle and didn't/couldn't dominate the ball as much.

I would argue that LeBron's last Cleveland season was a toss up with MJ's 88-89. If you go to their 36 MPG numbers, MJ had 29, 7 and 7. LeBron had 27.4, 8 and 7 (with a slight round up from 6.7).

Part of the reason MJ has stunning raw numbers is that he played a ton of minutes and has some insane usage rates. MJ had two years with a usage rate over 38 and LeBron has never been as high as 34. Collins's offense was basically "give Mike the ball." That was when MJ got his assists, because he was basically the initiator every time down the floor.

Both players have areas the other can't match. LeBron can't match MJ's ability as a raw scorer. MJ cwn't match LeBron's peak efficiency (.649 TSP?). There are a ton of similarities, though. Both have 4 PER seasons over 30. Both could do it in all areas of the game. Their D, rebounding and assists speak to that.

A couple of things, per-36 only makes sense large scale. It's not A fair argument season to season. In this instance it significant hurts Jordan and barely hurts James. Large scale handles those fluctuations better.

One of those 38% Usage Jordan played just 18 games. I just throw out that and the Wizards years when discussing Jordan. Which I'll do here, and say each player's career tFG% is effectively the same, which LeBron having a higher peak (as you mention), but also feels more all over the place season to season. Each have 7 seasons over 57%, 4 over 60%.

Ultimately it all comes down to Per and Win Shares. Jordan destroys LeBron in the latter. Almost averaged 3 more wins than LeBron on average yearly over prime years. Per is a bit closer, but Jordan is most consistently great, and not counting Wizards years, is about 28.5 Per to James' 27.7.

Adjusted pace is also an advanced metric for the what ifs, but I would again go to strength of the conference. Far more bad teams to pad stats against during LeBrons career. So adjust pace of play to balance, I'd like to see a metric for scoring vs win percentage brackets.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:01 am

Alieberman wrote:
UAEebs86 wrote:
CalStateTempe wrote:Delladova is a junk player.

Sean Miller compared TJ to him at his presser.
I can totally see it.

Lol makes sense.

I'm a warriors fan as well as pulling for the cats, and delly isn't on my team so...

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:53 am

JMarkJohns wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:To Jmark's post, I agree that Jordan could put up assist numbers. He put up good numbers when he was installed as very ball dominant under Collins. When he played in the triangle and didn't/couldn't dominate the ball as much.

I would argue that LeBron's last Cleveland season was a toss up with MJ's 88-89. If you go to their 36 MPG numbers, MJ had 29, 7 and 7. LeBron had 27.4, 8 and 7 (with a slight round up from 6.7).

Part of the reason MJ has stunning raw numbers is that he played a ton of minutes and has some insane usage rates. MJ had two years with a usage rate over 38 and LeBron has never been as high as 34. Collins's offense was basically "give Mike the ball." That was when MJ got his assists, because he was basically the initiator every time down the floor.

Both players have areas the other can't match. LeBron can't match MJ's ability as a raw scorer. MJ cwn't match LeBron's peak efficiency (.649 TSP?). There are a ton of similarities, though. Both have 4 PER seasons over 30. Both could do it in all areas of the game. Their D, rebounding and assists speak to that.
A couple of things, per-36 only makes sense large scale. It's not A fair argument season to season. In this instance it significant hurts Jordan and barely hurts James. Large scale handles those fluctuations better.

One of those 38% Usage Jordan played just 18 games. I just throw out that and the Wizards years when discussing Jordan. Which I'll do here, and say each player's career tFG% is effectively the same, which LeBron having a higher peak (as you mention), but also feels more all over the place season to season. Each have 7 seasons over 57%, 4 over 60%.

Ultimately it all comes down to Per and Win Shares. Jordan destroys LeBron in the latter. Almost averaged 3 more wins than LeBron on average yearly over prime years. Per is a bit closer, but Jordan is most consistently great, and not counting Wizards years, is about 28.5 Per to James' 27.7.

Adjusted pace is also an advanced metric for the what ifs, but I would again go to strength of the conference. Far more bad teams to pad stats against during LeBrons career. So adjust pace of play to balance, I'd like to see a metric for scoring vs win percentage brackets.

For the best seasons, I think controlling for minutes played and usage makes sense. If a player plays 44 mpg and has a .40 usage rate, he can shoot the ball as well as I do and still put up decent raw ppg.

If we're talking adjustments, I agree it's fair to remove the Wiz years, but I think it's also fair to remove LeBron's first two years. He put up abnormally (for him) low PER's during years MJ was in college. At 18, I can't imagine MJ doing better, and those two years change LeBron's overall PER and other career stats.

In competition adjustment, I don't want to rehash the old arguments, but I would say I think supporting cast should be factored in too. The only years LeBron has had anything approximating MJ's supporting cast was the 4 Miami years. Even then, Pippen is better than Wade and Grant/Rodman were at worst a wash with Bosh.

The comparison isn't close to done. If LeBron somehow pulls this Finals win off, IMO, it would be the most impressive single player feat in Finals history, surpassing 1993 MJ. We'll see, but it is a close race at this point.

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:59 am

If this series goes 7 games... Is LeBron Finals MVP no matter who wins game 7?

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:02 am

Should be, but I don't think they would do that again

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:29 am

Alieberman wrote:If this series goes 7 games... Is LeBron Finals MVP no matter who wins game 7?

It would be the right thing to do. In this situation, he is head and shoulders over everyone else so far. If Curry gets rolling, maybe he steals it, but right now, it would be a joke to not give it to LeBron.

I understand that it should be a member of the winning team if it is close, but it is not only not close, it is not close to being not close right now.

3goggles · Post by **3goggles** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:38 am

Does anybody else see delle play and see TJ McConnell? Delle may get TJ drafted. Wishful thinking!

JMarkJohns · Post by **JMarkJohns** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:06 pm

I don't like what ifs. Especially small scale. It radically alters something that is into something it isn't.

One of the many "advantages" Jordan holds over LeBron is that he played more games and more minutes in those more games and was used equally, if not more in those minutes and in those games.

This is why small scale a pro-rated analytics is flawed in this argument. In using "leveling the playing field" it actually tilts the argument to LeBron because it reframed the argument into a "If LeBron did as much in as many minutes in as many games as Jordan" when he didn't.

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:36 pm

The MJ vs. LeBron debate has jumped the shark.

JMarkJohns · Post by **JMarkJohns** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:51 pm

Alieberman wrote:The MJ vs. LeBron debate has jumped the shark.

I sort of agree. What he's done the last three games has been truly astonishing. Despite failures, he's carried a band of ragamuffins to the precipice of a Title.

I don't want to diminish that by these arguments, but it feels like I am.

The comparison is impossible to argue correctly. Difference players, different generations.

If LeBron wins another 2/3 Titles, having made an additional 2/3 Finals plus the 4-6 rings won, that's an astonishing accomplishment.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:14 pm

JMarkJohns wrote:I don't like what ifs. Especially small scale. It radically alters something that is into something it isn't.

One of the many "advantages" Jordan holds over LeBron is that he played more games and more minutes in those more games and was used equally, if not more in those minutes and in those games.

This is why small scale a pro-rated analytics is flawed in this argument. In using "leveling the playing field" it actually tilts the argument to LeBron because it reframed the argument into a "If LeBron did as much in as many minutes in as many games as Jordan" when he didn't.

I don't think it really alters much. LeBron played over 40 mpg in 4 seasons and has never played less than 36 per game. He played 39 a game in the season I quoted 36 mpg numbers for. That's a heavy enough workload that the extra minutes don't show more than more chance to put up stats.

I disagree on the Jordan had more games and minutes. LeBron actually has played far more games at the same age because of the earlier start and never missing a full season for baseball and basically all the season for the foot injury. At the same age, Jordan had close to 4 fewer NBA seasons under his belt.

I am really interested to see how the Finals turn out. If LeBron maintains this level of play and the Cavs win, I think it would be fair to say it's the best Finals performance ever. If he declines a bit and still produces good numbers, it will just be a legendary performance, not the legendary performance. My mind is boggled. At this point, the Cavs are maybe a 20 win team plus LeBron and they are up 2-1 in the Finals against a very, very good team.

That's the fun of the sport, we get to see what happens. Regardless of where LeBron winds up vs MJ, we're watching an all time great perform. Those chances are cool. I still remember MJ averaging over 40 a game against the Suns and being in awe of just how good he was. This feels like another one of those moments.

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:05 pm

Much better start for GS tonight.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:22 pm

azgreg wrote:Much better start for GS tonight.

Cleveland has been bad on offense and GS has a flow on offense for once. This is how I figured the series would look. We'll see how LeBron comes out in the 2nd.

84Cat · Post by **84Cat** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:54 pm

Does Bron Bron ever get called for the pushoff? Ever?

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:59 pm

84Cat wrote:Does Bron Bron ever get called for the pushoff? Ever?

Super Star rule.

JMarkJohns · Post by **JMarkJohns** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:37 pm

Nice game for Iguodala.

Fishclamps · Post by **Fishclamps** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:40 pm

Nice game indeed.

LeBron just seemed to be out of gas since the game started.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:36 pm

Big win for the Warriors. Cleveland can't win with JR, Shumpert and Dellevedova all chucking bricks. Someone has to space the floor and those 3 shot 7-35 combined.

Credit to Kerr. He threw a lot of guys at LeBron to make him spread it around, and putting the ball in the hands of the Cavs perimeter guys basically won that game (along with Iggy playing big and Steph getting his mojo back).

TucsonClip · Post by **TucsonClip** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:34 am

Loved Kerr's response defensively in Game 4. Started small so he could switch up top on LeBron and trap when they tried to screen with Delly.

Also, LeBron looked gassed most of the game. Credit some to the Warriors defense for making it difficult for him to get into the lane, but they guy looked tired. Extra day of rest will help him.

JMarkJohns · Post by **JMarkJohns** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:49 am

Honesty or stupidity, LeBron needs to be more diplomatic in responses after the game. His answer to how important game 5 will be was equal parts smugness and douchebaggery, mixed with just enough accuracy to paint LeBron as Casey of Mudville.

I completely understand that a game 6 win in Boston to force a game 7 is both harder and more meaningful to a series than a game 5 in Oakland with assurance of a game 6 in Cleveland.

But he can infer it like: "Well, I've been in tough circumstances before. In 2011 we didn't win the pivotal game 5 and ultimately lost the series. But the next year we were facing elimination in Boston, rallied to force game 7 in Miami and won the series and ultimately the title. While times, teams, and opponents are changed, I'd have both failures and success to draw from as I motivate both myself and my team, as I lead based upon experience. I believe this next game will be a challenge, but thankfully my career has blessed me with other challenges to draw from."

But no, he's Casey from Mudville exuding self belief. Diplomacy just isn't his style.

EOCT · Post by **EOCT** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:06 pm

JMarkJohns wrote:Nice game for Iguodala.

MVP of Finals so far in my view; chance of going all the way.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:48 am

He was up through yesterday, and he had a very solid game yesterday, but Curry may have stolen it if he has another good game in their win (Lebron obviously wins if the Cavs win). He was out of his mind last night w some of those big shots down the stretch.

BTW, the hell is up with Iggy at the line? Clearly mental but damn.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:14 am

Curry is making a run, but I have a hard time not thinking LeBron is still easily the best player in the series.

Iggy just has a mental block about ft's. It happens. FT's are the only time a player has time to really slow down and process info, and that screws up some people when they get sideways mentally. The rest of the game, thinking is on a completely different plane. When I used to play, I never really thought about things like the crowd, shot mechanics, etc until I was on the bench or at the line. All of a sudden, the reaction of shooting a ball turns into having to think about how you shoot it.

If GS has a decent offensive game, they win. It's that simple. Cleveland can't hang with anything but a subpar game. They just do not have the firepower.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:58 am

More interesting fivethirtyeight Finals analysis.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/why- ... h-to-beat/

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:24 am

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Curry is making a run, but I have a hard time not thinking LeBron is still easily the best player in the series.

Iggy just has a mental block about ft's. It happens. FT's are the only time a player has time to really slow down and process info, and that screws up some people when they get sideways mentally. The rest of the game, thinking is on a completely different plane. When I used to play, I never really thought about things like the crowd, shot mechanics, etc until I was on the bench or at the line. All of a sudden, the reaction of shooting a ball turns into having to think about how you shoot it.

If GS has a decent offensive game, they win. It's that simple. Cleveland can't hang with anything but a subpar game. They just do not have the firepower.

I agree. I know it has happened before, but when was the last time a losing player won MVP in a championship game/series? Jerry West is the only one I can recall and that is only because I heard it a few years ago. Im sure its happened in baseball and football and hockey but it's probably only happened a few times in each if that.

I figured it was all mental, still mind boggling though. When I played I was an average shooter from everywhere on the floor, but I could consistently sink 90 out of 100 free throws at the end of every practice, sometimes even going higher, and in games I was probably in the low to mid 80's and I think a lot of that was fatigue with a little added pressure (obviously not even close to what a college or pro has). It's the same mechanics every time and the muscle memory kicks in. I would think muscle memory would at least get someone with a mental block to hit more than 1 of 9. But I guess if someone like Chuck Knoblach cant even throw a ball 60 feet to first base, it makes sense how someone can lose it.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:04 am

RG2, I totally agree it is a rare thing for the Finals MVP to be from a losing team. That said, LeBron is producing a rare performance. If he has a game tonight like he's played the rest of the series, I would peg his performance as the second best of the modern NBA, behind MJ's 1993 Finals.

Shaq had some insane years in the Lakers 3 peat, and Wade was great in 2006, but LeBron is elevating a group of scrubs into a tight series against a really good team. The stats about how Cleveland does when he is off the floor are comical. 18.2% from 2, 0.0% from 3 and a -39.2 +/- for 48 are just laughable.

Most years, it's gotta be a winner, but this year is borderline unprecedented.

TucsonClip · Post by **TucsonClip** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:34 am

Didnt see any posts about it, but been calling for this Lance trade for the Clippers since last year. I like it, solid move, high reward and medium risk.

This also opens up trade possibilities for Crawford. I imagine Doc will also put in a call to Brandon Bass and might have an inkling that Pierce will opt out and wants to come home to LA to play for him.

Additionally, this also frees up cap space next summer if the Clippers wish. They could be in the $20+ mil range next summer.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:13 pm

TucsonClip wrote:Didnt see any posts about it, but been calling for this Lance trade for the Clippers since last year. I like it, solid move, high reward and medium risk.

This also opens up trade possibilities for Crawford. I imagine Doc will also put in a call to Brandon Bass and might have an inkling that Pierce will opt out and wants to come home to LA to play for him.

Additionally, this also frees up cap space next summer if the Clippers wish. They could be in the $20+ mil range next summer.

With Lance, the question isn't usually about how his game. He fits well in that way. Mentally, I don't know how he works with Paul. Not necessarily terrible, but...enough to make me pause. It's not like they lost much, though, so why not.

I swear I don't work for fivethirtyeight, but here's another interesting statistical analysis about the finals relevant to RG2's post:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/here ... -james-is/

They have had some really interesting NBA content lately.

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:36 pm

CLE/GS goes overtime +1100

Tied at Half & goes OT +11500

Wow

EOCT · Post by **EOCT** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:34 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
TucsonClip wrote:Didnt see any posts about it, but been calling for this Lance trade for the Clippers since last year. I like it, solid move, high reward and medium risk.

This also opens up trade possibilities for Crawford. I imagine Doc will also put in a call to Brandon Bass and might have an inkling that Pierce will opt out and wants to come home to LA to play for him.

Additionally, this also frees up cap space next summer if the Clippers wish. They could be in the $20+ mil range next summer.
With Lance, the question isn't usually about how his game. He fits well in that way. Mentally, I don't know how he works with Paul. Not necessarily terrible, but...enough to make me pause. It's not like they lost much, though, so why not.

Lance and Clipps? My instincts suggest enough risk potential to dodge Stephenson. Agreed a skillful player----sweet scorer, passer, defender; and can actually play three positions with some stretching. .

The personal. Yes, 6 or so years ago, but problem behavior and team chemistry seemed evident. I watched him 4/5 times in televised AAU tournaments because we had a temporary recruiting interest in him. He disappeared regularly in games, including an entire Semi of a major Brooklyn tournament when Kevin Parrom simply bailed him out. He returned for the Final and was MVP thanks to the real MVP, KP, who delivered him dime after dime and delivered the team's dynamics. In each of the 4/5 games he appeared oblivious, maybe disdainful of most teammates. Loaded? Quien sabe? Then there was a sexual assault charge he pled...

Different guy now? I sure hope so, but I believe there's been talk around the league. Certainly Doc Riv and Chris Paul would be decisive if a Stephenson acquisition investment soured.

Again, I'd like to see the Clipps pass.

Spiff, love the 538 analyses.

Coop Cat · Post by **Coop Cat** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:50 pm

Main Event · Post by **Main Event** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:01 pm

Mozgov might have worse hands than Kaleb

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:08 pm

Main Event wrote:Mozgov might have worse hands than Kaleb

Mozgov is having a great game.

Iggy just had a great flop.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:21 pm

Mozgov is a monster

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:31 pm

This is over. Cleveland brought a knife to a gun fight.

It's too bad. This would have been an epic series with Irving healthy. It isn't like the Warriors aren't a legit champion. They are. It would have gone 7, IMO, with Kyrie healthy.

All that's left is LeBron or Steph.

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