What is the best Pac hoops rivalry?

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:33 pm

Best or fiercest, I suppose.

Some possible choices:

AZ vs. ASU
AZ vs. Colorado
AZ vs. Oregon
Stanford vs. Cal
Oregon vs. UW
AZ vs. Utah...others?

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:34 pm

Arizona UCLA...?

Arizona asu isn't a hoops rivalry

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:35 pm

UA/UCLA for sure.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:42 pm

Is there a real choice other than Arizona/UCLA? I think the better question is what #2 is.

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:48 pm

So Beachcat... the biggest UCLA "hater" on the board doesn't list the obvious choice?

Your schtick is old and boring.

Move on.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:49 pm

The reason I don't consider AZ/UCLA the best is because it's very one-sided fan-wise. UCLA fans prefer football to hoops, and our games with them at Pauley aren't even sellouts. I consider a rivalry one where both teams and fans are fervently interested, and both teams involved are consistently competitive and in contention. In football: Michigan/OSU, USC/Notre Dame, Florida/Florida St, Stanford/Cal...in hoops: UNC/Duke, G'town/Cuse, Kansas/K-State, UConn/Nova, UK/L'ville

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:56 pm

Depends on the year.

Started as AZ vs UCLA then it moved to AZ vs Stanford, then AZ vs UDub then it was AZ vs CU, then it was AZ vs Oregon and probably for a few years AZ vs Cal.

I only notice one consistency in that equation

carolinacat · Post by **carolinacat** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:18 pm

azcat49 wrote:Depends on the year.

Started as AZ vs UCLA then it moved to AZ vs Stanford, then AZ vs UDub then it was AZ vs CU, then it was AZ vs Oregon and probably for a few years AZ vs Cal.

I only notice one consistency in that equation

Yep. Check the attendance figures closely over the last two decades and you can figure out what the rivalries are. Better yet, ask the fanbases of other programs....UW, Oregon, Stanford, Utah, ASU, CU and of course UCLA and they'll all say Arizona is their rival.

illcat · Post by **illcat** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:49 pm

It was at one time AZ and fucla, but now I would have to go with AZ vs oregon.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:01 pm

Is, always been, and always will be UCLA

Alieberman · Post by **Alieberman** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:43 pm

illcat wrote:It was at one time AZ and fucla, but now I would have to go with AZ vs oregon.

Oregon?

Have they been relevant since they had Luke and Luke?

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:14 pm

I can't consider AZ/UCLA the best rivalry because UCLA's fans are small in number and noticeably blasé.

I'll take AZ/Oregon.

Here's another question: nationally, which rivalry do you think other conferences' fans perceive as the best or most interesting Pac rivalry? Does the Pac even have a nationally interesting rivalry?

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:37 pm

Beachcat97 wrote:I can't consider AZ/UCLA the best rivalry because UCLA's fans are small in number and noticeably blasé.

I'll take AZ/Oregon.

Here's another question: nationally, which rivalry do you think other conferences' fans perceive as the best or most interesting Pac rivalry? Does the Pac even have a nationally interesting rivalry?

But you consider Arizona/asu a rivalry?

Nationally people probably don't think of many pac 12 hoops rivalries, but if they did, #1 by far would be Arizona/UCLA

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:39 am

BC, you really should go talk to a professional about this problem of yours.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:44 am

It's Arizona vs UCLA and second place isn't even close.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:02 am

ChooChooCat wrote:It's Arizona vs UCLA and second place isn't even close.

Pretty sure this is only true for AZ fans.

UCLA "fans" are more focused on the Foster Farms Bowl (can't believe that's actually a thing) than on any single Pac hoops game.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:51 am

Why do the fans matter exactly? You asked what was the best rivalry was. Fans are a small portion of what makes a great rivalry.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:54 am

This thread is transparently stupid. I give it an F+.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:58 am

ChooChooCat wrote:Why do the fans matter exactly? You asked what was the best rivalry was. Fans are a small portion of what makes a great rivalry.

So you're saying that fan interest/support doesn't matter in rivalries? Seriously?

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:03 am

Chicat wrote:This thread is transparently stupid. I give it an F+.

Quite frankly you're being too generous.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:13 am

ChooChooCat wrote:
Chicat wrote:This thread is transparently stupid. I give it an F+.
Quite frankly you're being too generous.

Totally. Pac hoops rivalries are boring. And stupid!

MrBug708 · Post by **MrBug708** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:14 am

I suppose this whole thread was written for my response. Here is my post.

threenumberones · Post by **threenumberones** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:25 am

Puerco wrote:BC, you really should go talk to a professional about this problem of yours.

Yea. Seriously. I'm embarrassed for him. When I read that crap it makes me want to take a shower.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:33 pm

This thread is sort of confirming what I'd suspected: there are no Pac hoops rivalries, at least none that anyone cares too much about.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:08 am

You're pretty much the only one here who doesn't think UA-UCLA is the conference's best rivalry, and then you proceed to use your own rather unique perspective to confirm your hypothesis?

That's... Creative.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:17 am

Puerco wrote:You're pretty much the only one here who doesn't think UA-UCLA is the conference's best rivalry, and then you proceed to use your own rather unique perspective to confirm your hypothesis?

That's... Creative.

All I'm saying, Puerco, is that this "rivalry" is mainly in the minds of AZ fans. It's not a rivalry for UCLA fans, and nationally, I don't think there are too many who follow this rivalry. Which is why I'm not sure it really counts as a rivalry, at least not in the same way as UNC/Duke in hoops or OSU/Michigan in football.

PHXCATS · Post by **PHXCATS** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:22 am

There is no rivalry anywhere on the west except for USC UCLA football and Oregon Stanford football when it comes to national exposure. Really trying way too hard here. Everyone that appreciates college basketball appreciate the rivalry between UCLA and UA.mby far the biggest in the conference and west of the Mississippi.

carolinacat · Post by **carolinacat** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:22 am

Take a poll of the fanbase of all the Pac 12 schools and get their opinion on who their rival is.

If they don't select their geographic rival (UW-WSU, UO-OSU, etc...) then the answer is going to be ARIZONA. We consistently play to the largest crowd of the year on road trips. So ASU is going to say Arizona, UCLA is going to say Arizona, Utah might say BYU or Arizona, CU is going to say CSU or Arizona, etc...

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:33 am

We're the only school that ever plays in sold out arenas on the road.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:45 am

So AZ is everyone's rival. Think this says a lot about AZ's standing both in the Pac and nationally.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:53 am

Beachcat97 wrote:
Puerco wrote:You're pretty much the only one here who doesn't think UA-UCLA is the conference's best rivalry, and then you proceed to use your own rather unique perspective to confirm your hypothesis?

That's... Creative.
All I'm saying, Puerco, is that this "rivalry" is mainly in the minds of AZ fans. It's not a rivalry for UCLA fans, and nationally, I don't think there are too many who follow this rivalry. Which is why I'm not sure it really counts as a rivalry, at least not in the same way as UNC/Duke in hoops or OSU/Michigan in football.

If UCLA fans don't think they have a rivalry with Arizona that's simply because they don't have any fans. The only rivalry worth talking about on this part of the country has been between Arizona & UCLA since the day Lute Olson took the job in Tucson.

KaibabKat · Post by **KaibabKat** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:53 am

Washington - Oregon

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:01 am

KaibabKat wrote:Washington - Oregon

I've noticed that both arenas fill up for this game. It's a northwest supremacy thing, I think. Too bad Romar can't get things rolling again. Those games would actually mean something.

The Butcher · Post by **The Butcher** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:03 am

ChooChooCat wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
Puerco wrote:You're pretty much the only one here who doesn't think UA-UCLA is the conference's best rivalry, and then you proceed to use your own rather unique perspective to confirm your hypothesis?

That's... Creative.
All I'm saying, Puerco, is that this "rivalry" is mainly in the minds of AZ fans. It's not a rivalry for UCLA fans, and nationally, I don't think there are too many who follow this rivalry. Which is why I'm not sure it really counts as a rivalry, at least not in the same way as UNC/Duke in hoops or OSU/Michigan in football.
If UCLA fans don't think they have a rivalry with Arizona that's simply because they don't have any fans. The only rivalry worth talking about on this part of the country has been between Arizona & UCLA since the day Lute Olson took the job in Tucson.

This. Arizona / UCLA is really the only true Pac 12 Rivalry. And it gets press nationwide and has for 30 years.

The only thing I can fathom is that you are new to Arizona basketball, Beachcat. As in you've only been a fan for the last 10 years or so. Or you're not 30 yet. Otherwise, none of what you're saying makes sense.

Arizona / UCLA has been THE rivalry in the Pac 12 / Pac 10. Anyone that has been following the team since the end of Ben Lindsey and the beginning of Lute knows this.

Them punking us out in the Pac 12 tourney the prior 3 years has made it even more intense on our end. We sell out when we go to your place and we always sell out ours. It's just how it is.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:04 am

Yeah not really seeing what the debate is here. No matter how many fans do or do not show up at Pauley.

UAEebs86 · Post by **UAEebs86** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:15 am

I know what Sean Miller would say:

"He touched the ball."

Full credit to UCLA.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:19 am

rgdeuce wrote:Yeah not really seeing what the debate is here. No matter how many fans do or do not show up at Pauley.

Well, only that fan indifference seems to impact the rivalry. If Cameron was half full during UNC/Duke, that game would look really strange on TV, and I'm not even sure if it would have the same aura and prestige that it does.

Anyway, yes, we all get it. AZ/UCLA is the rivalry most of us pay attention to. It seems infrequent that both of these programs have been at their strongest during the same stretch. Howland was at UCLA when Lute was nearing retirement, and there was some instability with coaching and players transferring. Then Miller reinvigorated the program, but this was as Howland was circling the drain and things were unraveling in Westwood. Going back further, I think the mid-90s were probably a time when both programs were thriving. Each reached the FF and won a NC. It would be nice to get back to that level, with two Pac teams right in the hunt for FFs and NCs. It would be nice to have at least one Pac rivalry (AZ/UCLA or a different one) "matter" on a larger level.

dirtbags · Post by **dirtbags** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:21 am

yeah, it's definitely Arizona - ucla though some of my bruin buddies will say it's 'furd, then UofA.

the p12 network could do a much better job promoting & hyping the rivalry.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:39 am

dirtbags wrote:yeah, it's definitely Arizona - ucla though some of my bruin buddies will say it's 'furd, then UofA.

the p12 network could do a much better job promoting & hyping the rivalry.

This is what I'm talking about. Even though UCLA/Stanford makes very little sense, different fan bases have different sensibilities and histories.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:41 am

Beachcat97 wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Yeah not really seeing what the debate is here. No matter how many fans do or do not show up at Pauley.
Well, only that fan indifference seems to impact the rivalry. If Cameron was half full during UNC/Duke, that game would look really strange on TV, and I'm not even sure if it would have the same aura and prestige that it does.

I mean if this is your point then you're still way off. Pauley fills up when Arizona is in town and always has. Your point is moot.

Also not every conference has to have a rivalry with national implications nor do the vast majority of them. Who is Kansas's main rival in the Big 12 year in year out? Who is Kentucky's main rival in the SEC year in year out? Who is Michigan State's year in and year out? You named Duke and North Carolina as your one example, two elite schools separated by what a half hour drive? You're being ridiculously nitpicky to say the least. There's one intraconference rivalry that has national implications every year and that's because they are both elite and have staying power due to their legacies and coaches.

dirtbags · Post by **dirtbags** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:48 am

Beachcat97 wrote:
dirtbags wrote:yeah, it's definitely Arizona - ucla though some of my bruin buddies will say it's 'furd, then UofA.

the p12 network could do a much better job promoting & hyping the rivalry.
This is what I'm talking about. Even though UCLA/Stanford makes very little sense, different fan bases have different sensibilities and histories.

yup, although if i'm reading the "97" in your name correctly, the conference's top 3 while you (we) were in school was usually some permutation of Arizona, ucla, stanford. the bruins & trees thing was also an assertion of "best in california", i suppose.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:00 am

dirtbags wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
dirtbags wrote:yeah, it's definitely Arizona - ucla though some of my bruin buddies will say it's 'furd, then UofA.

the p12 network could do a much better job promoting & hyping the rivalry.
This is what I'm talking about. Even though UCLA/Stanford makes very little sense, different fan bases have different sensibilities and histories.
yup, although if i'm reading the "97" in your name correctly, the conference's top 3 while you (we) were in school was usually some permutation of Arizona, ucla, stanford. the bruins & trees thing was also an assertion of "best in california", i suppose.

If Stanford finds themselves an actual coach they could be right back towards the top.

The Butcher · Post by **The Butcher** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:40 am

And Arizona is really the only game apathetic UCLA fans actually show up for:

Average Attendence Arizona at UCLA

2015 7717 (No Pauley Home Game - Fuck You Larry Scott) MGM Grand 12916
2014 8136 13283
2013 9549 13727
2012 8353 9247 (John Wooden Classic at Honda Center Anaheim - Pauley Renovations)
2011 8081 11986
2010 9843 8681 (might not be accurate, although it was 7-7 Az and 6-8 UCLA)
2009 10580 11228
2008 10428 12111
2007 8894 12249
2006 9213 11983
2005 9332 12681
2004 8348 12621
2003 10021 11802
2002 8765 11960
2001 9440 12386
2000 10130 12202
1999 10739 12108

It's becoming really difficult to find stats on the internets before 1999 for box scores but the years before that (1988-1998) were the epic battles for Arizona vs UCLA basketball and were sold old nearly every game in both venues.

I know those numbers got scrunched together when it posted but there first number is the Year, Second Number is average pauley attendance for that year and the 3rd number is the Pauley game vs Arizona.

The rivalry is considered THE rivalry in Pac 10/12 basketball. So much so that Wikipedia even has a page set up documenting just Arizona / UCLA games:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona%E ... ll_rivalry" target="_blank

Arizona vs UCLA is the most attended basketball game in Pauley nearly every single year.
UCLA had won 21 of 23 games vs Arizona before Lute. And even Lute had difficulty with UCLA (28 wins 23 losses).

The reason this is THE rivalry in the Pac 12 is because since 1984 the two schools compete for the Pac-12 Championship every year. There's some ridiculous number where Arizona or UCLA has been the Pac 12 champion 26 of the last 32 years. That's why we are rivals.

Since Lute in 1984 Arizona is 37-33 VS UCLA That's pretty damn close. Rivalries are close records. Arizona vs ASU is NOT a rivalry. Period.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:46 am

^

The UCLA-Arizona basketball rivalry is still seen as the match up of the two premier teams in the conference.[3]

Per ESPN.

Remember when UCLA broke the McKale 81 game home winning streak 89-87? That was some game.

Believe UA is back on top of the longest home winning streak.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:56 am

43 and counting. Will be tested more than a few times this year I think

The Butcher · Post by **The Butcher** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:57 am

Beachcat97 wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Yeah not really seeing what the debate is here. No matter how many fans do or do not show up at Pauley.
Well, only that fan indifference seems to impact the rivalry. If Cameron was half full during UNC/Duke, that game would look really strange on TV, and I'm not even sure if it would have the same aura and prestige that it does.

Anyway, yes, we all get it. AZ/UCLA is the rivalry most of us pay attention to. It seems infrequent that both of these programs have been at their strongest during the same stretch. Howland was at UCLA when Lute was nearing retirement, and there was some instability with coaching and players transferring. Then Miller reinvigorated the program, but this was as Howland was circling the drain and things were unraveling in Westwood. Going back further, I think the mid-90s were probably a time when both programs were thriving. Each reached the FF and won a NC. It would be nice to get back to that level, with two Pac teams right in the hunt for FFs and NCs. It would be nice to have at least one Pac rivalry (AZ/UCLA or a different one) "matter" on a larger level.

This is simply not true. Arizona and UCLA were both pretty tremendous in the 90s. THE two teams on the west coast. And Pauley is never half full for Arizona. It's packed. It's the most attended UCLA game of the year. Your statement later on about the mid 90's is more accurate in regards to the UCLA / Arizona rivalry. And that's how most of us remember it. Ridiculous battles with Brian Williams taking on the entire UCLA team. Sean Elliott's game-time heroics vs UCLA. Reggie Fucking Miller. Don MacLean. This is what we remember when we look at UCLA.

Hate.

And it's not like UCLA isn't holding their own. In the last 10 years UCLA is up on us 15-9. And had a 8 game winning streak from Jan 2006 to Jan 2009. And from Jan 2013 to March 2014 they won 4 of 5. With some pretty ouchy Pac 12 Tourney losses thrown in.

I hate those mudderfackers. Most of Tucson does.

carolinacat · Post by **carolinacat** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:41 pm

The Butcher wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Yeah not really seeing what the debate is here. No matter how many fans do or do not show up at Pauley.
Well, only that fan indifference seems to impact the rivalry. If Cameron was half full during UNC/Duke, that game would look really strange on TV, and I'm not even sure if it would have the same aura and prestige that it does.

Anyway, yes, we all get it. AZ/UCLA is the rivalry most of us pay attention to. It seems infrequent that both of these programs have been at their strongest during the same stretch. Howland was at UCLA when Lute was nearing retirement, and there was some instability with coaching and players transferring. Then Miller reinvigorated the program, but this was as Howland was circling the drain and things were unraveling in Westwood. Going back further, I think the mid-90s were probably a time when both programs were thriving. Each reached the FF and won a NC. It would be nice to get back to that level, with two Pac teams right in the hunt for FFs and NCs. It would be nice to have at least one Pac rivalry (AZ/UCLA or a different one) "matter" on a larger level.
This is simply not true. Arizona and UCLA were both pretty tremendous in the 90s. THE two teams on the west coast. And Pauley is never half full for Arizona. It's packed. It's the most attended UCLA game of the year. Your statement later on about the mid 90's is more accurate in regards to the UCLA / Arizona rivalry. And that's how most of us remember it. Ridiculous battles with Brian Williams taking on the entire UCLA team. Sean Elliott's game-time heroics vs UCLA. Reggie Fucking Miller. Don MacLean. This is what we remember when we look at UCLA.

Hate.

And it's not like UCLA isn't holding their own. In the last 10 years UCLA is up on us 15-9. And had a 8 game winning streak from Jan 2006 to Jan 2009. And from Jan 2013 to March 2014 they won 4 of 5. With some pretty ouchy Pac 12 Tourney losses thrown in.

I hate those mudderfackers. Most of Tucson does.

The better UCLA is, the more I hate them. Pretty much sums up my feelings.

midnightx · Post by **midnightx** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:08 pm

It has been AZ/UCLA for roughly 30 years. Both programs have had short periods of diminished play, and there have been other teams that have had short windows of elite play (Cal, Stanford, Washington, Oregon come to mind), but consistently, it has been AZ and UCLA. Those are the two elite programs.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:14 pm

ASU-Colorado is clearly the best Pac12 rivalry.

Seriously, how is there any debate? There are 2 Pac schools with a national profile. There are 2 Pac schools that have won a national title in the modern era. There are 2 consistent leaders in Pac recruiting.

The fan support argument is silly. Only 4 schools have more than 2/3 of their seats full.

http://www.arizonawildcats.com/ViewArti ... =210025589" target="_blank

MrBug708 · Post by **MrBug708** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:46 pm

dirtbags wrote:
Beachcat97 wrote:
dirtbags wrote:yeah, it's definitely Arizona - ucla though some of my bruin buddies will say it's 'furd, then UofA.

the p12 network could do a much better job promoting & hyping the rivalry.
This is what I'm talking about. Even though UCLA/Stanford makes very little sense, different fan bases have different sensibilities and histories.
yup, although if i'm reading the "97" in your name correctly, the conference's top 3 while you (we) were in school was usually some permutation of Arizona, ucla, stanford. the bruins & trees thing was also an assertion of "best in california", i suppose.

It probably goes back to when Latin would lose to WSU and Oregon State and then beat #1 Stanford.

But nobody thinks ucla and Stanford is a rivalry right now. I'd buy USC but it's embarrassing to lose to USC, not Arizona. But that's a crosstown rivalry thing that would apply to any sport really

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