Sean Miller

Bangkok Wildcat · Post by **Bangkok Wildcat** » Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:01 am

84Cat wrote:

Thanks 84Cat! Bear Down

enfuego · Post by **enfuego** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:21 am

Merkin wrote:
A1RZONA wrote:

Stanimal makes $2.8M this year, so looks like CSM is still the highest paid in the bunch.

Summer League players don't get paid, just $100 per day per diem.

Weird caption for that photo. It's JerseyMike, even bangkokwildcat could afford to pick up that check.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:42 pm

Yeah, I heard Jersey Mike's sushi is dirt cheap...

Fishclamps · Post by **Fishclamps** » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:17 pm

rgdeuce wrote:Yeah, I heard Jersey Mike's sushi is dirt cheap...

scumdevils86 · Post by **scumdevils86** » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:37 pm

Oh fuegs

Fishclamps · Post by **Fishclamps** » Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:07 am

Maybe enfuego orders it off their secret menu?

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:54 pm

Point guard situation. A Miller misfire? What should be done? Or are we good?

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:19 pm

gumby wrote:Point guard situation. A Miller misfire? What should be done? Or are we good?

I wish we had one more pure point on the roster. But I'm guessing a lot of programs wish the same.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:52 am

Topic 1

Lute stuck with Shakur for four years, declining to recruit over him, as he waited for his prized prospect to emerge. Is that what's going on here?
Seems clear that Parker has always been the long-term plan. Get tutelage under McConnell and then take the reins.

He was the man coming into this season despite a mediocre campaign and a lot of grumbling. Allen was moved off the ball, creating a logjam. Well, it was at the time, before Ray's injury and Trier's whatever.

No more sharing PG. Miller is talking up Parker and his improvement, and that's the talking point all of the announcers are getting from the program. Seemed to be the assumption of many folks here that it had to be Kobi at some point this year. Think Miller believes that? I don't.

Are we headed for Let The Talent Play vs. 2.0, with Parker taking the lumps because Miller doesn't agree with that request? As it turned out, it was the peripatetic Turner who was coach's misfire, despite several "Dead End" signs along way.

I get the frustration, but Parker isn't solely responsible. He wasn't a one-game choice. He was the long-term plan. Miller was the planner. Seems awfully generous to Miller to say, "It's on Parker for not developing." It's not on the $5 million/year CEO for not seeing the downside risk? Not even a bit?

If Parker is, as so many have said, a serviceable backup, but he's starting ... well? Is Miller stepping on the sideline over and over?

Topic No. 2

Does a fanbase need a particular player on which it can take out its frustrations? The Fogg or York or Denker or Parker? Is that needed, because directly criticizing the coach - or being super-understanding of him, rather than the kid -- is just a bridge too far?

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:53 am

Chicat wrote:
gumby wrote:Point guard situation. A Miller misfire? What should be done? Or are we good?
I wish we had one more pure point on the roster. But I'm guessing a lot of programs wish the same.

Me, too.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:06 am

The real question is, has anyone ever been happy with a PG under Miller? I mean, in hindsight (which is always clear of course) everyone loves TJ, but they didn't during his playing days. Even in his senior year OOC, people were questioning him and his abilities.

Before him it was Lyons, and Josiah Turner (remember the acclaim on TOS about his arrival...I do)...before that Momo Jones...

PJC is what he is. Did he have a bad year last year? Absolutely. I don't fault Miller for putting his faith in PJC based on how he sees him perform daily. People act like good/great PG's grow on trees and are available wherever and whenever...yet probably couldn't name more than a couple.

To talk on Gumby's second topic. Yes. Every year needs a whipping boy. PJC and Ristic are the frontrunners for this job this year. I predict both will have better years than what most on here are expecting.

Jefe · Post by **Jefe** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:29 am

gumby wrote:Point guard situation. A Miller misfire? What should be done? Or are we good?

Misfire but Im not holding it against him.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if PJC could make 2 threes every single night

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:03 am

gumby wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Don't want to speak for others, but I'm sure there are plenty here who are like me - bust your ass and perform, or your ass is sitting on the bench/we will find someone to replace you.
Do you think Miller is like you? Can answer in the Miller thread. Would love to hear it. Not seeing failure to bust ass being a function of failing to perform here. I see limitations.

To answer your question from the other thread:

I think Miller is 100 percent like me

. Blue-collar, get your ass out of bed, be on time and put in your hard 8 at work and go home type of guy. Most seasons though, he has just been handcuffed by taking over an almost depleted program, having crippling injuries and depth problems as a result, and not having depth because of early entries/transfers/turnover, etc. We all remember the "You, get the F out" to Parrom. In Miller's ideal world, he has "next man up" on the bench. It's just that most seasons, next man up is a liability or a walk on. That doesn't work with every player, but it can be very effective with most athletes - if you got that system in place, those are the guys you tend to target and fill around your Stanley's, Gordon's, etc. Like me, he appreciates his upperclassmen and loyalty, maybe to a fault. Last year I was the first to defend Gabe on here, and admittedly, Gabe was given too much of a leash by Miller. I share Miller's temper and intensity too.

I dont think PJC's biggest issue is effort. I wasn't trying to insinuate that it was more of an "either one of these will have your ass on the bench ". I'd actually place it third behind his physical limitations. With that said, he is a guy who can go through the motions quite a bit; and he seems to be a guy who is perfectly content with sitting in a heated restaurant and enjoying his 6-ounce steak, rather than wanting the guy who will go outside in the snow, hunt for his own meat and be able to eat as much as he could and have leftovers for days (TJ). If he was that guy, his limitations would be greatly mitigated by being a blood-thirsty in your pocket ball pest and the short quick guy who sneaks into the heart of the defense and finds his way out with an assist. But he isn't that type of player and that is fine, you either have that or you dont and I dont fault him or anyone else for not being that because those are special players.

I think his biggest problem, 100 percent is his mental makeup. He does not have the mental makeup to be the starting point guard for a top-tier Division1 program, IMO. It's a big responsibility, I just see him as the guy who is better suited to play the background and be the supporting role player. If he was 6'3, it would not be as noticeable. If he had the heart of a TJ or Muggsy Bogues, it would not be a problem. And maybe that is what Miller thought he was getting? He was out there watching him and he saw what he thought was a short guy who was a giant slayer, not knowing there was a ceiling on his giant slaying. You can be impressed with a 5'6 150 guy who doesn't back down from a fight against a 5'11 200 (High School) guy and say, man, that guy is fearless, and assume he would fight a 6'2 guy built like Karl Malone (College). Some of those guys don't have limits, and some are crazy enough to fight someone built like Lebron. It's a risk, and I'm sure a lesson that Miller learned.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:36 am

rgdeuce wrote:
I think Miller is 100 percent like me . Blue-collar, get your ass out of bed, be on time and put in your hard 8 at work and go home type of guy. Most seasons though, he has just been handcuffed by taking over an almost depleted program, having crippling injuries and depth problems as a result, and not having depth because of early entries/transfers/turnover, etc. We all remember the "You, get the F out" to Parrom. In Miller's ideal world, he has "next man up" on the bench. It's just that most seasons, next man up is a liability or a walk on. That doesn't work with every player, but it can be very effective with most athletes - if you got that system in place, those are the guys you tend to target and fill around your Stanley's, Gordon's, etc. Like me, he appreciates his upperclassmen and loyalty, maybe to a fault. Last year I was the first to defend Gabe on here, and admittedly, Gabe was given too much of a leash by Miller. I share Miller's temper and intensity too.

I dont think PJC's biggest issue is effort. I wasn't trying to insinuate that it was more of an "either one of these will have your ass on the bench ". I'd actually place it third behind his physical limitations. With that said, he is a guy who can go through the motions quite a bit; and he seems to be a guy who is perfectly content with sitting in a heated restaurant and enjoying his 6-ounce steak, rather than wanting the guy who will go outside in the snow, hunt for his own meat and be able to eat as much as he could and have leftovers for days (TJ). If he was that guy, his limitations would be greatly mitigated by being a blood-thirsty in your pocket ball pest and the short quick guy who sneaks into the heart of the defense and finds his way out with an assist. But he isn't that type of player and that is fine, you either have that or you dont and I dont fault him or anyone else for not being that because those are special players.

I think his biggest problem, 100 percent is his mental makeup. He does not have the mental makeup to be the starting point guard for a top-tier Division1 program, IMO. It's a big responsibility, I just see him as the guy who is better suited to play the background and be the supporting role player. If he was 6'3, it would not be as noticeable. If he had the heart of a TJ or Muggsy Bogues, it would not be a problem. And maybe that is what Miller thought he was getting? He was out there watching him and he saw what he thought was a short guy who was a giant slayer, not knowing there was a ceiling on his giant slaying. You can be impressed with a 5'6 150 guy who doesn't back down from a fight against a 5'11 200 (High School) guy and say, man, that guy is fearless, and assume he would fight a 6'2 guy built like Karl Malone (College). Some of those guys don't have limits, and some are crazy enough to fight someone built like Lebron. It's a risk, and I'm sure a lesson that Miller learned.

What I see you saying here, and I agree, is that PJC doesn't recognize he is an underdog. He plays like a star, which he was a level ago, but he seems oblivious to the fact that he should have a chip on his shoulder. And that is not helped by a lack of someone to push him and show him just how limited he is and why he needs to get every ounce out of what he has.

dirtbags · Post by **dirtbags** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:15 pm

Chicat wrote:
gumby wrote:Point guard situation. A Miller misfire? What should be done? Or are we good?
I wish we had one more pure point on the roster. But I'm guessing a lot of programs wish the same.

it would even be nice to have justin simon around. he'd probably be earning the minutes at pg that he wanted right now, and would be a nice defensive complement to PJC against the likes of ucla, gonzaga, udub, cal. oh well.

YoDeFoe · Post by **YoDeFoe** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:26 pm

PJC is fine. It's way too early in this season to talk about him being a misfire.

I don't question his heart at all, and I do think he plays with a chip on his shoulder.

PJC's two man game with Lauri cemented that CSUB game.

He hasn't shot it well in these two games but his passing, rebounding, and defense have been good. I don't get why he's in question.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:29 pm

EVCat wrote:
What I see you saying here, and I agree, is that PJC doesn't recognize he is an underdog. He plays like a star, which he was a level ago, but he seems oblivious to the fact that he should have a chip on his shoulder. And that is not helped by a lack of someone to push him and show him just how limited he is and why he needs to get every ounce out of what he has.

LOL, nah. Actually quite the contrary. More like he recognizes he is an underdog and mentally, he does not think he is capable of being the man who runs the show at an elite D1 program. Like rather than Miller saying, the keys are yours and he is jumping up and down and eager to show the world, he is like, oh, cool, and in his head he is constantly thinking, am I good enough? I could be wrong, but that's my educated guess based on watching him in his time here. He is not a bad player by any means, but to me, when you are Arizona bench good and your head is telling you that you are Arizona bench good, you are going to be Arizona bench good. Same player, but with a starter's mentality, said player is going to be a lot better. I mean, think about it. Last year Miller was saying, PJC is our guy. And he basically crapped the bed over an extended period. He's done better earlier this year, but he is teetering on looking like he is going to have a miserable shooting start (made a couple to at least retain some confidence for the time being). He has shown flashes of what he is capable of, but frequently goes through these lulls.

I think the best thing PJC can do right now is ride that Lauri train and really focus on the pick and roll and pop with him. When TJ got to Philly, he went straight for Okafor to build that rapport and worked extra hard to get that two-man game going.

HiCat · Post by **HiCat** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:09 am

Miller discusses Arizona's ideal recruit, breaks down signee DeAndre Ayton
Updated 13 hrs ago

http://tucson.com/online/video/watch-mi ... c8b47.html" target="_blank

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:28 am

rgdeuce wrote:
EVCat wrote:
What I see you saying here, and I agree, is that PJC doesn't recognize he is an underdog. He plays like a star, which he was a level ago, but he seems oblivious to the fact that he should have a chip on his shoulder. And that is not helped by a lack of someone to push him and show him just how limited he is and why he needs to get every ounce out of what he has.
LOL, nah. Actually quite the contrary. More like he recognizes he is an underdog and mentally, he does not think he is capable of being the man who runs the show at an elite D1 program. Like rather than Miller saying, the keys are yours and he is jumping up and down and eager to show the world, he is like, oh, cool, and in his head he is constantly thinking, am I good enough? I could be wrong, but that's my educated guess based on watching him in his time here. He is not a bad player by any means, but to me, when you are Arizona bench good and your head is telling you that you are Arizona bench good, you are going to be Arizona bench good. Same player, but with a starter's mentality, said player is going to be a lot better. I mean, think about it. Last year Miller was saying, PJC is our guy. And he basically crapped the bed over an extended period. He's done better earlier this year, but he is teetering on looking like he is going to have a miserable shooting start (made a couple to at least retain some confidence for the time being). He has shown flashes of what he is capable of, but frequently goes through these lulls.

I think the best thing PJC can do right now is ride that Lauri train and really focus on the pick and roll and pop with him. When TJ got to Philly, he went straight for Okafor to build that rapport and worked extra hard to get that two-man game going.

I see some of the same, but I see a kid so eager to prove he is capable he drives the car off the cliff occasionally. And while a superstar would just say "oh well...I got it next time", I think the failures eat at PJC. I think we are saying the same thing...he has nagging doubts about his own ability. He can be told "this is your team", but until he strings together multiple good games, he is going to have that creeping self doubt.

I think he thinks too much on the court...I see a player that knows the game, understands the role, is probably a future coach, but allows his brain to get in the way of what he does. Pre-determination rather than reaction. He needs a white noise machine in his head...

EOCT · Post by **EOCT** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:36 am

HiCat wrote:Miller discusses Arizona's ideal recruit, breaks down signee DeAndre Ayton
Updated 13 hrs ago

http://tucson.com/online/video/watch-mi ... c8b47.html" target="_blank

Thanks, Hi! Loved the discussion.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:05 pm

Jefe wrote:
gumby wrote:Point guard situation. A Miller misfire? What should be done? Or are we good?
Misfire but Im not holding it against him.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if PJC could make 2 threes every single night

I agree on Parker, but I'm not holding it against him.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:08 pm

Olsondogg wrote:The real question is, has anyone ever been happy with a PG under Miller? I mean, in hindsight (which is always clear of course) everyone loves TJ, but they didn't during his playing days. Even in his senior year OOC, people were questioning him and his abilities.

Before him it was Lyons, and Josiah Turner (remember the acclaim on TOS about his arrival...I do)...before that Momo Jones...

PJC is what he is. Did he have a bad year last year? Absolutely. I don't fault Miller for putting his faith in PJC based on how he sees him perform daily. People act like good/great PG's grow on trees and are available wherever and whenever...yet probably couldn't name more than a couple.

To talk on Gumby's second topic. Yes. Every year needs a whipping boy. PJC and Ristic are the frontrunners for this job this year. I predict both will have better years than what most on here are expecting.

Miller hasn't been able to consistently recruit the position. T.J. was the exception.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:11 pm

rgdeuce wrote:
gumby wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:Don't want to speak for others, but I'm sure there are plenty here who are like me - bust your ass and perform, or your ass is sitting on the bench/we will find someone to replace you.
Do you think Miller is like you? Can answer in the Miller thread. Would love to hear it. Not seeing failure to bust ass being a function of failing to perform here. I see limitations.
To answer your question from the other thread:

I think Miller is 100 percent like me . Blue-collar, get your ass out of bed, be on time and put in your hard 8 at work and go home type of guy. Most seasons though, he has just been handcuffed by taking over an almost depleted program, having crippling injuries and depth problems as a result, and not having depth because of early entries/transfers/turnover, etc. We all remember the "You, get the F out" to Parrom. In Miller's ideal world, he has "next man up" on the bench. It's just that most seasons, next man up is a liability or a walk on. That doesn't work with every player, but it can be very effective with most athletes - if you got that system in place, those are the guys you tend to target and fill around your Stanley's, Gordon's, etc. Like me, he appreciates his upperclassmen and loyalty, maybe to a fault. Last year I was the first to defend Gabe on here, and admittedly, Gabe was given too much of a leash by Miller. I share Miller's temper and intensity too.

I dont think PJC's biggest issue is effort. I wasn't trying to insinuate that it was more of an "either one of these will have your ass on the bench ". I'd actually place it third behind his physical limitations. With that said, he is a guy who can go through the motions quite a bit; and he seems to be a guy who is perfectly content with sitting in a heated restaurant and enjoying his 6-ounce steak, rather than wanting the guy who will go outside in the snow, hunt for his own meat and be able to eat as much as he could and have leftovers for days (TJ). If he was that guy, his limitations would be greatly mitigated by being a blood-thirsty in your pocket ball pest and the short quick guy who sneaks into the heart of the defense and finds his way out with an assist. But he isn't that type of player and that is fine, you either have that or you dont and I dont fault him or anyone else for not being that because those are special players.

I think his biggest problem, 100 percent is his mental makeup. He does not have the mental makeup to be the starting point guard for a top-tier Division1 program, IMO. It's a big responsibility, I just see him as the guy who is better suited to play the background and be the supporting role player. If he was 6'3, it would not be as noticeable. If he had the heart of a TJ or Muggsy Bogues, it would not be a problem. And maybe that is what Miller thought he was getting? He was out there watching him and he saw what he thought was a short guy who was a giant slayer, not knowing there was a ceiling on his giant slaying. You can be impressed with a 5'6 150 guy who doesn't back down from a fight against a 5'11 200 (High School) guy and say, man, that guy is fearless, and assume he would fight a 6'2 guy built like Karl Malone (College). Some of those guys don't have limits, and some are crazy enough to fight someone built like Lebron. It's a risk, and I'm sure a lesson that Miller learned.

How has Miller shown that it's a lesson learned?

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:14 pm

Moving this to the Miller thread didn't work. Still, mostly about Parker.

Oh well.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:49 pm

gumby wrote: How has Miller shown that it's a lesson learned?

Small sample size, but for one, it doesn't seem like he is worried about recruiting over anyone else anymore. I know that doesnt translate to our point guard/PJC situation now, but I think if Kobi was able to take that role it would have been different. He's just not right now. And for whatever reason, we've been nailing the wings and up with Miller but PG recruiting has always been shaky. Which is weird to me given who Miller is. The second, will take longer to play out, but I doubt Miller will ever go hard for a very undersized point guard unless he is a sure thing and he will probably not put all his eggs in that one basket if it does happen.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:00 pm

rgdeuce wrote:
gumby wrote: How has Miller shown that it's a lesson learned?
Small sample size, but for one, it doesn't seem like he is worried about recruiting over anyone else anymore. I know that doesnt translate to our point guard/PJC situation now, but I think if Kobi was able to take that role it would have been different. He's just not right now. And for whatever reason, we've been nailing the wings and up with Miller but PG recruiting has always been shaky. Which is weird to me given who Miller is. The second, will take longer to play out, but I doubt Miller will ever go hard for a very undersized point guard unless he is a sure thing and he will probably not put all his eggs in that one basket if it does happen.

Some of that is PGs are tough to find. There aren't that many who are clear high level D1 translations (TJ was a revelation...not a single one of us, TJ and Miller included, knew what he was going to be, even though they say they did). Lots of scoring 1s and athletes. Then you get someone like a Derryk Thornton that looked like a sure-fire bet (and may still be)...I mean, I seriously couldn't tell what hand that kid favored even when he was a sophomore. I had a player crush on him much like 97Cats. Yet he flamed out at Duke. Maybe he went too early and hurt himself by reclassifying. Maybe the talent there is so over the top. But it would seem a true PG with skills would only be like a kid in a candy shop with options like he had there.

PG is like QB in football and P in baseball...sometimes, kids just don't translate. Some of the best true play-facilitator PGs are overlooked because the AAU system does not properly expose their skills and their games are more subtle. Like TJ. Figuring out what wings will be good in D1 from the AAU meat market is maybe the easiest scouting there is. Yeah, some will fall apart at the speed of the college game, or not be able to shoot when real defense is played, but for the most part, their games are revealed. Big men are tougher, because some 7-footers dominate on size alone. But still, big man camps help reveal. PGs are toughest IMO. Their games are subtle and sometimes take longer to maximize. Patience is needed.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:13 pm

I get all that, but outside of Josiah Turner (who ended up being a bust, go figure), we just havent gotten that big recruit yet when he was landed Aytons, Stanleys, Zeuses, Gordons, etc. Eight top 20 guys from the 2012 class and on, not a single one was a point guard. Obviously Simon (34) and Kobi (28) were inside the top 50, but if Simon wasnt a combo guard he was a long-term project to even play the position and Kobi was seen as a combo. PJC was our best success for "youre getting a point guard day 1" in that time frame, he was ranked 50th. Add to the fact that Miller was an outstanding collegiate point guard, one of the three best recruiters in the country and one of the best coaches period....

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:17 pm

gumby wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:The real question is, has anyone ever been happy with a PG under Miller? I mean, in hindsight (which is always clear of course) everyone loves TJ, but they didn't during his playing days. Even in his senior year OOC, people were questioning him and his abilities.

Before him it was Lyons, and Josiah Turner (remember the acclaim on TOS about his arrival...I do)...before that Momo Jones...

PJC is what he is. Did he have a bad year last year? Absolutely. I don't fault Miller for putting his faith in PJC based on how he sees him perform daily. People act like good/great PG's grow on trees and are available wherever and whenever...yet probably couldn't name more than a couple.

To talk on Gumby's second topic. Yes. Every year needs a whipping boy. PJC and Ristic are the frontrunners for this job this year. I predict both will have better years than what most on here are expecting.
Miller hasn't been able to consistently recruit the position. T.J. was the exception.

This statement doesn't actually make any sense. He wasn't consistently recruiting...but along came TJ and then he was?

Also based on what metric of success? Getting to the NBA? Getting to an Elite 8? Cause the team with Momo at point did that.

I just don't understand what metric of success people are looking for. People want players to be the best at their position in the nation at every position? POY's for everyone? People want regular season success so that the season is enjoyable? People want players to be in the NBA, and then successful in the NBA?

Or all of it. People want players who are the best at their position, best in the league, leading to dominance in the NCAA and then dominance in the NBA. And in the end, Miller is responsible for all that cause he watches these players in HS and should convince them to come, and convince them to perform the way that we all expect them to.

Got it.

dirtbags · Post by **dirtbags** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:28 pm

not to be obtuse, but i just figured that CSM feels a lot more comfortable recruiting, developing, and taking a more raw pg under his wing -- relative to, say a big guy who he will want to come in a bit more game-ready. i mean, even TJ was a bit of a project when he transferred.

landing the nation's best point guard is always a goal, but it just seems that as a former pg Miller is fine with taking a chance on a kid with a high ceiling and coaching him up. nothing wrong with that.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:33 pm

I also think that at PG it's most important to Miller that the player have a hunger to win that is not surpassed on the team. Josiah Turner certainly did not have that hunger. All of his other point guards however have had it. So maybe there are more naturally talented guys out there that Miller doesn't go after hard knowing that he needs an absolute pitbull in the backcourt just like he was.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:48 pm

rgdeuce wrote:I get all that, but outside of Josiah Turner (who ended up being a bust, go figure), we just havent gotten that big recruit yet when he was landed Aytons, Stanleys, Zeuses, Gordons, etc. Eight top 20 guys from the 2012 class and on, not a single one was a point guard. Obviously Simon (34) and Kobi (28) were inside the top 50, but if Simon wasnt a combo guard he was a long-term project to even play the position and Kobi was seen as a combo. PJC was our best success for "youre getting a point guard day 1" in that time frame, he was ranked 50th. Add to the fact that Miller was an outstanding collegiate point guard, one of the three best recruiters in the country and one of the best coaches period....

That is worth noting, too. Which is odd for "Point Guard U", which has really become an antiquated moniker. We are Wing U. And you would think TJ's being in the league at all would be an amazing commercial for playing point at UA.

I really wanted Thornton. Kobi and Justin were both combo guards, so you rightfully cannot count them. It'd be nice to pull Duvall and put a stop to the whole madness.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:50 pm

Chicat wrote: Josiah Turner certainly did not have that hunger.

Well...he had the munchies...

Low hanging fruit. Also, not unique other than when he showed it. I know of at least 2 players from our last great team under Lute who made stops at a buddy's house for pre-game mind clearing.

EOCT · Post by **EOCT** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:09 pm

Chicat wrote:I also think that at PG it's most important to Miller that the player have a hunger to win that is not surpassed on the team. Josiah Turner certainly did not have that hunger. All of his other point guards however have had it. So maybe there are more naturally talented guys out there that Miller doesn't go after hard knowing that he needs an absolute pitbull in the backcourt just like he was.

Totally agree with your analysis, Chi. Your last sentence says it all.

TJ was that kind of dude, and he connected perfectly with Coach.

It also seems clear with CSM's pick-out of Alex Barcello. Not a guy who shows you a Thornton type bundle of every skill, but a hair on fire winner type who teammates listen to and emulate in the energy and focus departments.

Coach is a terrific leader. The real thing. Forget show-time----get results.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:22 pm

I think Barcello will surprise. I mean, anyone who isn't expecting him to be a major factor here.

And not TJ. He is NOT TJ. But some of his characteristics are similar (beyond skin color). Much better shooter, not as skilled defender. More of a Steve Nash (also white...just pointing out because last time I said this, it was pointed out for me)...not an angular, straight line player, but more soccer-like with the ball, weaving, curling around players, keeping the dribble alive until it is time to unleash. He also has a quick release in traffic and can get the shot up off the wrong foot/odd angles.

I think we will like him. He might be the 5th best player in his family (his 4 sisters have all been stars/will be stars), but very good player who has continued to play with higher level competition with no drop off...

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:35 pm

dirtbags wrote:not to be obtuse, but i just figured that CSM feels a lot more comfortable recruiting, developing, and taking a more raw pg under his wing -- relative to, say a big guy who he will want to come in a bit more game-ready. i mean, even TJ was a bit of a project when he transferred.

landing the nation's best point guard is always a goal, but it just seems that as a former pg Miller is fine with taking a chance on a kid with a high ceiling and coaching him up. nothing wrong with that.

That's an interesting take. I mean, it has to be something. I cant think of any other way to explain things. And maybe the Josiah recruitment "changed" his approach on what PGs he likes to go after. Historically though, if you look at our classes under Miller, more years than not we aren't adding a PG period.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:42 pm

dirtbags wrote:not to be obtuse, but i just figured that CSM feels a lot more comfortable recruiting, developing, and taking a more raw pg under his wing -- relative to, say a big guy who he will want to come in a bit more game-ready. i mean, even TJ was a bit of a project when he transferred.

landing the nation's best point guard is always a goal, but it just seems that as a former pg Miller is fine with taking a chance on a kid with a high ceiling and coaching him up. nothing wrong with that.

So, this is a rough, rough statistical analysis, but...looking at the last 4 years of top ranked PG's, there are really only 2-3 guys who make a significant impact as frosh in each class. This is obviously dependent on my definition of significant impact.

That said, I would say it squares with what I tend to think. PG is the hardest position to have an immediate impact guy. Most prospects tend to take time and be more hit or miss.

Partially, it's the limits of the position. Even if a 6'10 guy doesn't develop well, he's still 6'10. A PG, well, that player needs to make the skill transition, or he won't do much.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:48 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
dirtbags wrote:not to be obtuse, but i just figured that CSM feels a lot more comfortable recruiting, developing, and taking a more raw pg under his wing -- relative to, say a big guy who he will want to come in a bit more game-ready. i mean, even TJ was a bit of a project when he transferred.

landing the nation's best point guard is always a goal, but it just seems that as a former pg Miller is fine with taking a chance on a kid with a high ceiling and coaching him up. nothing wrong with that.
So, this is a rough, rough statistical analysis, but...looking at the last 4 years of top ranked PG's, there are really only 2-3 guys who make a significant impact as frosh in each class. This is obviously dependent on my definition of significant impact.

That said, I would say it squares with what I tend to think. PG is the hardest position to have an immediate impact guy. Most prospects tend to take time and be more hit or miss.

Partially, it's the limits of the position. Even if a 6'10 guy doesn't develop well, he's still 6'10. A PG, well, that player needs to make the skill transition, or he won't do much.

So with the Turner situation, a top guy that didnt pan out, maybe he backs down from going all-in on a 5 star point w his resources and thinks those resources are better allocated to wings/4s. And instead of snagging up the more "sure thing but down the road" PG's in the 30s-60s, he is going after the "projects/combos" in those ranges that have a chance to be better than the top 20 guys down the road... High risk/high reward type of situation?

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:56 pm

Or he thinks the skills that make a top level PG are not captured in the star ranking/AAU circuit Mixtape culture (overstating for effect, but you get the idea).

So he is looking for leadership and court vision over stats/numbers? That explains Barcello, but where this theory falls apart somewhat is who else has that been? PJC was an early commit. But Sean hasn't supplemented with a lot of players you would identify as falling into this idea of PG. We haven't had a steady stream of that player. We pretty much just sign highly rated players and combo guards.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:48 am

Olsondogg wrote:
gumby wrote:
Olsondogg wrote:The real question is, has anyone ever been happy with a PG under Miller? I mean, in hindsight (which is always clear of course) everyone loves TJ, but they didn't during his playing days. Even in his senior year OOC, people were questioning him and his abilities.

Before him it was Lyons, and Josiah Turner (remember the acclaim on TOS about his arrival...I do)...before that Momo Jones...

PJC is what he is. Did he have a bad year last year? Absolutely. I don't fault Miller for putting his faith in PJC based on how he sees him perform daily. People act like good/great PG's grow on trees and are available wherever and whenever...yet probably couldn't name more than a couple.

To talk on Gumby's second topic. Yes. Every year needs a whipping boy. PJC and Ristic are the frontrunners for this job this year. I predict both will have better years than what most on here are expecting.
Miller hasn't been able to consistently recruit the position. T.J. was the exception.
This statement doesn't actually make any sense. He wasn't consistently recruiting...but along came TJ and then he was?

Also based on what metric of success? Getting to the NBA? Getting to an Elite 8? Cause the team with Momo at point did that.

I just don't understand what metric of success people are looking for. People want players to be the best at their position in the nation at every position? POY's for everyone? People want regular season success so that the season is enjoyable? People want players to be in the NBA, and then successful in the NBA?

Or all of it. People want players who are the best at their position, best in the league, leading to dominance in the NCAA and then dominance in the NBA. And in the end, Miller is responsible for all that cause he watches these players in HS and should convince them to come, and convince them to perform the way that we all expect them to.

Got it.

"Consistent" means just that. Not understanding the confusion.

My statement was a simple one that others subsequently affirmed. If you rank our PGs over the last 30 years, the Miller ones -- other than TJ -- sink to the bottom. That doesn't strike me as consistently recruiting the position well. Certainly not compared with other positions. Some of the PGs who rank higher had some painful performances as underclassmen. So it's too soon to close the book on Parker.

If you think Momo qualifies as a hit at PG, then we simply disagree. Same with Lyons (a needed stopgap, but not a point guard). Pretty sure Momo drove Miller crazy as it relates to the fundamentals of playing the point. We got to an EE, but he didn't stay. I don't think Miller was all that concerned that he left.

As to whether it was lesson learned after Turner, maybe he is taking the approach that this is the one position where you explore players who are further down the high-school ratings, knowing that is the rare player who gets it right away at PG (Mike Bibby, for instance, being an outlier). What I don't see is fans adopting the requisite patience. Hence, I see a disconnect and over-the-top criticism of the current occupant of the position.

Good thread, guys. A lot to think about.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:08 am

In the latest presser he talked about the adjustments they have made in recruiting. The big one he harped on was going after players "who loved the game." Guys who want to be in practice and in the gym, rather than seeing it as a chore. I'm sure anyone here who was an athlete will agree, those guys don't grow on trees. May be a case where some of those guys in the teens-30s are weeded out for the 38 (Randolph), 58 (Lee), 80 (Barcello). Of course some of those guys will be in the teens and lower for Miller to go after, and of course you are going to "forgive" some things to scoop up the elites who are going to be one and dones anyhow. But now, rather than just amassing the highest rated talent you can, you are going to be bringing in several guys who will 1) stick around merely because they aren't regarded as one-and-done or two-and-done guys out of high school, 2) respect the process and not transfer out or create problems because they aren't getting big minutes as freshmen, and 3) Because of 1 and 2, add some balance, experience and decrease the uncertainty of "what is my team going to look like this season" every season.

Nick Johnson and TJ fit the mold of what Miller is looking for to a T. TJ was coveted as an outgoing transfer, obviously, after two years of proving his worth at the D1 level, but out of high school, a relative nobody. Nick Johnson was what, the 25th ranked recruit in his class? But that dude busted his ass and became a great player. Sprinkle in your elite guys (Stanley, Gordon, Bash, Rondae, Zeus) who are either A-effort practice guys or are so talented you can forgive that (or both) and you got yourself a consistently elite team without the pressure of having to land a top 5 class every year and having a just "wait til march" team.

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:50 pm

That's a good take, rgd. I hope you're right, because it would be that recruiting strategy a number of us have discussed in the past. Take an elite guy or two plus a good crop of four year players instead of five top 25 guys who will either jump to the league or transfer out within a couple of years. Personally, I'll take that 50th ranked kid as a senior over the 15th ranked kid as a freshman just about any day.

dirtbags · Post by **dirtbags** » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:41 pm

RHJ was another who totally fit the mold... loved being in tucson, loved the UofA, loved the fans, played & practiced hard, team guy, didn't care if he started, repped the program well, had just the right amount of nastiness. (bonus: PA guy)

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:48 pm

dirtbags wrote:RHJ was another who totally fit the mold... loved being in tucson, loved the UofA, loved the fans, played & practiced hard, team guy, didn't care if he started, repped the program well, had just the right amount of nastiness. (bonus: PA guy)

AG and RHJ, that class was a rare mix of two very talented guys who are also extremely hard workers and unselfish, team first, defensive oriented players.

HiCat · Post by **HiCat** » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:02 am

http://tucson.com/online/video/watch-mi ... 01b8f.html" target="_blank

CatFanOneMil · Post by **CatFanOneMil** » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:56 am

I think one of the overlooked negatives about having a "Defense leads to Offense" as the primary driving force of your program is that it forces players to emulate the team they are defending...this is especially true for freshmen...

It is probably on some level completely unconscious...but over the last few years I have watched with amused horror as our team LOADED with talent comes out against a sub-Div.1 school and struggles in the first half...and I have wondered what makes this particular phenomena happen?

It wasn't until I started studying the work of Rene Girard and mimetic theory that I began to see a lot of what is going on...

We are wired to mirror others, it is evolutionary and it is deeply unconscious...

Now when you put this particular science to work on a basketball court and the emphasis is "DEFEND" then a player/team is going to be completely wrapped up in watching the other team because that's their job...but the unconscious element of this is that often we start playing THEIR game offensively as a natural reflection, and generally the team is unaware it is happening to them.

For instance last night...first sixty seconds...we go out defend and force a turnover...what happens next?

One of our best players goes down to our end of the court and mimics the opponent, he turns it over...

It's completely unconscious on the team's part, hell I doubt Miller is even aware completely that it is happening...he probably just wonders why we're throwing up bricks...

But notice what happens, we generally describe it as "playing down to our competition" I doubt that is it as much as we are simply mimicking the opposing team because our first focus is defending against them...its mimetic theory on the gym floor.

Think of all the games where we came out and should have mopped the floor with our talent but end up fighting tooth and nail to overcome sludge in our gearbox.

Offensively we have been trying to play the way the other team plays, we are trying to beat them at their own game, which is a terrible offensive strategy...now I am not blaming Miller at all for this...I think a lot of it is completely unconscious...but last night watching them against NColo I was like "There is no f**king way this team should be in this game" but the first half they OWNED us in the paint and on the boards even though we had a height advantage.

Mimetic theory is changing all kinds of sociology and has been hailed as a huge psychological breakthrough...its just a matter of time until someone crunches the numbers on the BB court and figures out the key to stopping the cycle...

Until then...we need to figure out how to play OUR game offensively and still play strong D...

dcZONAfan · Post by **dcZONAfan** » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:02 am

Ummmmmm.... Wut?

CatFanOneMil · Post by **CatFanOneMil** » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:10 am

dcZONAfan wrote:Ummmmmm.... Wut?

Simple...we play the other teams offensive game without thinking about it...how many times in the first half last night did we get the ball into our bigs?

Not many. But that is our game right now based on our advantage.

We are playing down to their level offensively...

Think about it, our score should never be a reflection of the other teams typical scoring average, but it almost always is...

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:13 am

CatFanOneMil wrote:
dcZONAfan wrote:Ummmmmm.... Wut?
Simple...we play the other teams offensive game without thinking about it...how many times in the first half last night did we get the ball into our bigs?

Not many. But that is our game right now based on our advantage.

We are playing down to their level offensively...

Think about it, our score should never be a reflection of the other teams typical scoring average, but it almost always is...

The only issue with your theory is that about 80%+ of our offensive possessions are called plays by CSM. As far as scoring average, you have to look at pace of play. If our defense is on and we're forcing teams to go deep into their shot clock, that will lead to less offensive possessions for us as well.

CatFanOneMil · Post by **CatFanOneMil** » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:18 am

Chicat wrote:
CatFanOneMil wrote:
dcZONAfan wrote:Ummmmmm.... Wut?
Simple...we play the other teams offensive game without thinking about it...how many times in the first half last night did we get the ball into our bigs?

Not many. But that is our game right now based on our advantage.

We are playing down to their level offensively...

Think about it, our score should never be a reflection of the other teams typical scoring average, but it almost always is...
The only issue with your theory is that about 80%+ of our offensive possessions are called plays by CSM. As far as scoring average, you have to look at pace of play. If our defense is on and we're forcing teams to go deep into their shot clock, that will lead to less offensive possessions for us as well.

I'm suggesting its unconscious...CSM can call whatever play he wants, but our offense will look sluggish because it will "feel" unnatural...

And yes it is all speculation, it is simply my theory...but how many times last night did PJC get the ball after a late clock failure on the opponent's side and instead of pushing the ball (several times he could have gone right to the rim) he pulls it back and dribbles around until our own clock winds down...

Now maybe that is a by product of following CSM calling out plays...but it looks unnatural...

Our offense has "no flow" to it.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:24 am

Are people really still worried about how the fucking offense looks? At this point, if you want a run and gun team then you are watching the wrong program under the wrong coach.

I mean, it's been several years. It is what it is...go watch UW or uCla if you want a free flowing offense and a lack of defense. Also brace for some losses in that system.

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