Another best for Toad Graham..

[boat343]

This dude is as phony as it gets.... this is his dream job... this is the best team he's ever coached... now Tashon Smallwood is the best freshman he's ever had. And he still runs around with his camouflage hats! Guy is a douche through and through...

http://www.foxsports.com/arizona/story/ ... asu-082614

[catgrad97]

Yeah, the Sun Devil-on-camo wear is as douchey as it gets.

[NYCat]

Is this the best team he's had this year?

[wyo-cat]

Graham is a Bullshit Artist.

[HaCats]

I live in the Phx area and end up reading Doug Haller's (the Daniel Berk equivalent) daily asu practice report in azcentral. When you read Todd's quotes on a daily basis, it's absolutely striking to observe the contrast in style's between he and RR. Whereas RR mosty totally refuses to hand out individual compliments to players in camp, or even to position groups.....Todd tells the media that 1 thru 11 on both sides of the ball are all the best who have ever graced this planet. It's so contrived.

I hate to see such an utter douchebag of a person get his ego stroked with early success. I never thought it would be possible for me to hate asu more than I already did. Somehow Coach Wristbands has made that a reality. Just the sight of him on the sideline's in his ridiculous barber smock shirt (hey high school recruits....look at me, I'm contemporary and approachable!)...his wristbands and Britney Spears headset....makes me angry.

[Salty]

I watched a program once that said children preform better in school when they are told that they are doing well.

Positive vs negative motivation is the contrast in styles here. Unfortunately, positive motivation is far and away the better tool to use to spur improvements. Children and adults respond far better to someone who praises them and in turn this leads to better work ethic and general success.

It pains me to say this, but RR could learn a lot from the way that Graham praises his players. RR does do a good job of recognizing players who do a genuinely good job or show improvement. But if a player is struggling, RR is far harsher, and would be better served to use words like "improving, working hard, and motivated".

[TheBlackLodge]

I watched a program once that said children preform better in school when they are told that they are doing well.

Positive vs negative motivation is the contrast in styles here. Unfortunately, positive motivation is far and away the better tool to use to spur improvements. Children and adults respond far better to someone who praises them and in turn this leads to better work ethic and general success.

It pains me to say this, but RR could learn a lot from the way that Graham praises his players. RR does do a good job of recognizing players who do a genuinely good job or show improvement. But if a player is struggling, RR is far harsher, and would be better served to use words like "improving, working hard, and motivated".

[Salty]

It's a study out there. Students do better if they're encouraged.

I'll try to find it sometime.

[Puerco]

Yah, that's why pussified US students are scoring so well versus the rest of the world academically...

The best way to be is honest. If someone sucks, tell them they suck, and then tell them what they need to do to improve. If they don't try to improve, then buh-bye.

[Salty]

Yah, that's why pussified US students are scoring so well versus the rest of the world academically...

The best way to be is honest. If someone sucks, tell them they suck, and then tell them what they need to do to improve. If they don't try to improve, then buh-bye.

The best students in the US consistently score better than the best students of the rest of the world.

When you include students from the poor parts of the south and urban environments, the scores become skewed in favor of places that don't have disproportionate levels of income.

But that's not here nor there.

[azpenguin]

The best way to be is honest. If someone sucks, tell them they suck, and then tell them what they need to do to improve.

There's the money quote.

People do better when you're straight up with them. They respect you a hell of a lot more as well. They may not like what you're telling them but they'll respect you a lot more than if you're blowing happy smoke up their a** if you're giving them an honest assessment.

[Chicat]

It pains me to say this, but RR could learn a lot from the way that Graham praises his players.

You don't have to lie. It doesn't ever "pain you" to take the unpopular viewpoint and beat it to death. If it did you wouldn't do it in every conversation on every topic that comes up on these boards. Just admit you live to be the board contrarian and quit with the "I'm just reluctantly telling all you blind homers the truth" bullshit. Thanks in advance.

[qwertyus]

It pains me to say this, but RR could learn a lot from the way that Graham praises his players.

You don't have to lie. It doesn't ever "pain you" to take the unpopular viewpoint and beat it to death. If it did you wouldn't do it in every conversation on every topic that comes up on these boards. Just admit you live to be the board contrarian and quit with the "I'm just reluctantly telling all you blind homers the truth" bullshit. Thanks in advance.

That made me chuckle.

[Puerco]

Yah, that's why pussified US students are scoring so well versus the rest of the world academically...

The best way to be is honest. If someone sucks, tell them they suck, and then tell them what they need to do to improve. If they don't try to improve, then buh-bye.

The best students in the US consistently score better than the best students of the rest of the world.

When you include students from the poor parts of the south and urban environments, the scores become skewed in favor of places that don't have disproportionate levels of income.

But that's not here nor there.

Do tell. Have a source for that, Salty, or is it all just coming from inside?

I have a source. It says you're wrong:

Jack Buckley, the commissioner of the National Center for Education Statistics, noted that American students from families with incomes in the highest quartile did not perform as well as students with similar backgrounds in other countries.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/03/educa ... .html?_r=0

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

Yeah, the Sun Devil-on-camo wear is as douchey as it gets.

Yeah, way douchier than the rainbows we wear on the shoulders of our jerseys...

I can handle the camo with ASU given their military connection (Tillman, honor row, etc).

[UofAlum05]

Todd Graham does this in the media. There isn't a coach who is worst to his players in America than Todd Graham. That is why he was voted the players least what to play for in an ESPN survey of college football players. He berates his QBs all game. I've seen it in person when he was at Tulsa.

[CalStateTempe]

I watched a program once that said children preform better in school when they are told that they are doing well.

Positive vs negative motivation is the contrast in styles here. Unfortunately, positive motivation is far and away the better tool to use to spur improvements. Children and adults respond far better to someone who praises them and in turn this leads to better work ethic and general success.

It pains me to say this, but RR could learn a lot from the way that Graham praises his players. RR does do a good job of recognizing players who do a genuinely good job or show improvement. But if a player is struggling, RR is far harsher, and would be better served to use words like "improving, working hard, and motivated".

Wrong.

The vast majority the data from behavioral economics show that negative incentives have a greater improvement in behavior change relative to positive incentives. Basically, individuals are motivated by the concept of "loss" to a far greater degree than the concept of "gain".

Also, incentives in general only spur behavior change for 3-6mos at best. After 12, they lose their effect and removing positive incentives actually is a disincentive to a greater degree than the gains made initially.

Now, you'll likely be a contrarian and say that I am I am wrong, but I know this literature (i.e. more than one un-cited "study, but I'll find it later guys" concocted to support some subjective opinion). So I'll leave it at that.

[CalStateTempe]

It's a study out there. Students do better if they're encouraged.

I'll try to find it sometime.

Jesus christ...one fucking study in children that Salty generalizes to the entire adult population and supports his thinking on this issue and why RR is a inferior coach to Graham.

smh.

[CalStateTempe]

Yah, that's why pussified US students are scoring so well versus the rest of the world academically...

The best way to be is honest. If someone sucks, tell them they suck, and then tell them what they need to do to improve. If they don't try to improve, then buh-bye.

This is how the real world works and to develop successful accomplished adults.

[Chicat]

If the article talked about how TG regularly berates his players until they cry, and uses lashings as punishment for mistakes on the field, Salty would have said, "It pains me to say this, but RR could learn a lot from the way that Graham beats the ever loving shit out of his players..."

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

Todd Graham does this in the media. There isn't a coach who is worst to his players in America than Todd Graham. That is why he was voted the players least what to play for in an ESPN survey of college football players. He berates his QBs all game. I've seen it in person when he was at Tulsa.

Where do you come up with this shit? We have all seen RR lose his cool at his players and coaches on the sidelines countless times. Pretty sure that is a characteristic of many coaches.

I get that we are supposed to have a natural dislike of TG, but the very fact that we have an entire thread devoted to his personality shows he is effective. As far as the least liked coach poll goes, I would love to see how that was calculated. He didn't seem to have a problem getting buy-in from the team that won the pac 12 south and beat the tar out of us. His recruiting classes don't seem to exemplify a coach who is disliked. Lets move this thread to the rivals forum.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

Yah, that's why pussified US students are scoring so well versus the rest of the world academically...

The best way to be is honest. If someone sucks, tell them they suck, and then tell them what they need to do to improve. If they don't try to improve, then buh-bye.

This is how the real world works and to develop successful accomplished adults.

I assume you have some sort of evidence to support this grand declaration?

[boat343]

I watched a program once that said children preform better in school when they are told that they are doing well.

Positive vs negative motivation is the contrast in styles here. Unfortunately, positive motivation is far and away the better tool to use to spur improvements. Children and adults respond far better to someone who praises them and in turn this leads to better work ethic and general success.

It pains me to say this, but RR could learn a lot from the way that Graham praises his players. RR does do a good job of recognizing players who do a genuinely good job or show improvement. But if a player is struggling, RR is far harsher, and would be better served to use words like "improving, working hard, and motivated".

Here is the program I watched on the very same subject...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jere-7F0Gls

[UofAlum05]

Todd Graham does this in the media. There isn't a coach who is worst to his players in America than Todd Graham. That is why he was voted the players least what to play for in an ESPN survey of college football players. He berates his QBs all game. I've seen it in person when he was at Tulsa.

Where do you come up with this shit? We have all seen RR lose his cool at his players and coaches on the sidelines countless times. Pretty sure that is a characteristic of many coaches.

I get that we are supposed to have a natural dislike of TG, but the very fact that we have an entire thread devoted to his personality shows he is effective. As far as the least liked coach poll goes, I would love to see how that was calculated. He didn't seem to have a problem getting buy-in from the team that won the pac 12 south and beat the tar out of us. His recruiting classes don't seem to exemplify a coach who is disliked. Lets move this thread to the rivals forum.

I'm not sure who you are but I've been on these boards for a long time. I never state an opinion unless there is some sort of facts to back up my argument. I'm usually considered on the Scout premium and the GoAzcats board has one of the more level headed posters. So sorry if the "where do you come with this shit" pisses me off a tad.

Todd Graham was voted as the coach that players would least like to play for.
http://www.examiner.com/article/coach-t ... p-odd-poll

There is a difference between yelling at players and absolutely berating them to nothing. Todd Graham has been known to take this way too far to the point of being called out by other coaches in the media. See link below.
http://www.lostlettermen.com/article/12 ... i-transfer

I attended the Tulsa vs. East Carolina Conference USA championship game when Todd Graham was the coach of Tulsa. ECU absolutely romped Tulsa that day. My father and I sat in the stands and could hear Todd Graham over the crowd the entire game. Instead of getting on his QB after a mistake. He proceeded to remind him of those mistakes while he sat on the bench every single time that ECU scored. It was almost bordering on strange how he would walk over to his QB and just yell at him after every mistake the entire Tulsa team would make.

So that is where I came up with this shit. I am not saying RR is a saint. But Todd Graham is an asshole, pure and simple. Good for him for getting them to the Pac-12 game and proceed to get romped. His defense was full of studs that Erikson did a nice job evaluating, recruiting, and landing. The jury is still out whether he can carry a program long term with his own players. But he's still an asshole no matter what.

[RazorsEdgeAZ]

CTG easy for a Wildcat fan to dislike (and many others). The bigger "dbag" Graham is, the better for the rivalry...AND the sweeter an Arizona win over "them" will be. Talk big, fall big.

[devilswin99]

The jealously here is bubbling over. When will it set in that you thought you brought a shiny new Corvette, but ended up with a 1972 Pinto with no A/C? Maybe tonight will be the cold water on the face that you need to realize that your drowning and there is no one to help. Arizona belongs to ASU and that will not change.

[boat343]

The jealously here is bubbling over. When will it set in that you thought you brought a shiny new Corvette, but ended up with a 1972 Pinto with no A/C? Maybe tonight will be the cold water on the face that you need to realize that your drowning and there is no one to help. Arizona belongs to ASU and that will not change.

There isn't an ounce of jealousy. This isn't as much an attack on ASU as it is on this complete and utter douche. I don't hate ASU as much as I do him. Now, it does sweeten the rivalry because it is easy to lump the hate together. Clearly I don't like ASU; But in now way would wish such a dirtbag on ASU.

[Chicat]

Arizona belongs to ASU

Our head to head record would seem to suggest otherwise, but I'm not going to tax your ASU-educated brain with simple math by posting those numbers.

[scumdevils86]

Arizona belongs to ASU

Our head to head record would seem to suggest otherwise, but I'm not going to tax your ASU-educated brain with simple math by posting those numbers.

our head to head record in every major sport mind you

[Salty]

Yah, that's why pussified US students are scoring so well versus the rest of the world academically...

The best way to be is honest. If someone sucks, tell them they suck, and then tell them what they need to do to improve. If they don't try to improve, then buh-bye.

The best students in the US consistently score better than the best students of the rest of the world.

When you include students from the poor parts of the south and urban environments, the scores become skewed in favor of places that don't have disproportionate levels of income.

But that's not here nor there.

Do tell. Have a source for that, Salty, or is it all just coming from inside?

I have a source. It says you're wrong:

Jack Buckley, the commissioner of the National Center for Education Statistics, noted that American students from families with incomes in the highest quartile did not perform as well as students with similar backgrounds in other countries.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/03/educa ... .html?_r=0

It's in the book, "The Post-American world" by Fareed Zakaria. I'm not going to spend the time to quote a book for you.

Basically, the argument is made that the lower classes of American citizens lower the score in comparison to other countries, whose lower class citizens are either not taking tests or aren't included in the data. Also, leaders in international test scores, like Sweden, have very few social differences in class and culture, and don't face the challenges of having to educate a student from the deep south in Mississippi and a student from Cambridge, Massachusetts, the same material.

The American education system is still far and away the best in the world. Not only does America still produce the highest number of educated students, there are more doctors, engineers, business leaders, and entrepreneurs trained here than anywhere else because of our incredible University system.

[Salty]

I watched a program once that said children preform better in school when they are told that they are doing well.

Positive vs negative motivation is the contrast in styles here. Unfortunately, positive motivation is far and away the better tool to use to spur improvements. Children and adults respond far better to someone who praises them and in turn this leads to better work ethic and general success.

It pains me to say this, but RR could learn a lot from the way that Graham praises his players. RR does do a good job of recognizing players who do a genuinely good job or show improvement. But if a player is struggling, RR is far harsher, and would be better served to use words like "improving, working hard, and motivated".

Wrong.

The vast majority the data from behavioral economics show that negative incentives have a greater improvement in behavior change relative to positive incentives. Basically, individuals are motivated by the concept of "loss" to a far greater degree than the concept of "gain".

Also, incentives in general only spur behavior change for 3-6mos at best. After 12, they lose their effect and removing positive incentives actually is a disincentive to a greater degree than the gains made initially.

Now, you'll likely be a contrarian and say that I am I am wrong, but I know this literature (i.e. more than one un-cited "study, but I'll find it later guys" concocted to support some subjective opinion). So I'll leave it at that.

Who wants to work for a boss who's a jerk and treats them like garbage all day?

Who would rather work for a firm but fair and encouraging leader all day?

Positive motivation works.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

Todd Graham does this in the media. There isn't a coach who is worst to his players in America than Todd Graham. That is why he was voted the players least what to play for in an ESPN survey of college football players. He berates his QBs all game. I've seen it in person when he was at Tulsa.

Where do you come up with this shit? We have all seen RR lose his cool at his players and coaches on the sidelines countless times. Pretty sure that is a characteristic of many coaches.

I get that we are supposed to have a natural dislike of TG, but the very fact that we have an entire thread devoted to his personality shows he is effective. As far as the least liked coach poll goes, I would love to see how that was calculated. He didn't seem to have a problem getting buy-in from the team that won the pac 12 south and beat the tar out of us. His recruiting classes don't seem to exemplify a coach who is disliked. Lets move this thread to the rivals forum.

I'm not sure who you are but I've been on these boards for a long time. I never state an opinion unless there is some sort of facts to back up my argument. I'm usually considered on the Scout premium and the GoAzcats board has one of the more level headed posters. So sorry if the "where do you come with this shit" pisses me off a tad. Where are your facts? A poll in which the mechanics for taking the poll are not revealed? The comments of a coach who lost his job to Graham? Your personal experience watching a game? The coach you are describing does not win a PAC-12 south champ, and certainly doesnt have the buy-in of a program to beat the likes of respected offensive mastermind like Rich Rodriguez 58-21. You might be considered a "level-headed' poster, but you certainly aren't objective in these comments. Its pretty easy to poke holes in all of your "facts", which means they aren't really facts.

Todd Graham was voted as the coach that players would least like to play for.
http://www.examiner.com/article/coach-t ... p-odd-poll

There is a difference between yelling at players and absolutely berating them to nothing. Todd Graham has been known to take this way too far to the point of being called out by other coaches in the media. See link below.
http://www.lostlettermen.com/article/12 ... i-transfer

I attended the Tulsa vs. East Carolina Conference USA championship game when Todd Graham was the coach of Tulsa. ECU absolutely romped Tulsa that day. My father and I sat in the stands and could hear Todd Graham over the crowd the entire game. Instead of getting on his QB after a mistake. He proceeded to remind him of those mistakes while he sat on the bench every single time that ECU scored. It was almost bordering on strange how he would walk over to his QB and just yell at him after every mistake the entire Tulsa team would make.

So that is where I came up with this shit. I am not saying RR is a saint. But Todd Graham is an asshole, pure and simple. Good for him for getting them to the Pac-12 game and proceed to get romped. His defense was full of studs that Erikson did a nice job evaluating, recruiting, and landing. The jury is still out whether he can carry a program long term with his own players. But he's still an asshole no matter what.

[catgrad97]

Graham isn't firm, though. He's just a bullsh*t spin artist.

And speaking of BS, that "military connection." Look up Jimmie Hopkins sometime. Dude was a Marine too. Arizona's not getting camo unis because of it, much less some flag-waving PR-driven ticket section.

I respect Pat Tillman. His death doesn't entitle ASU to wrap itself in the colors of the military like the actual service academies do. It's insulting, frankly.

[Salty]

Graham isn't firm, though. He's just a bullsh*t spin artist.

And speaking of BS, that "military connection." Look up Jimmie Hopkins sometime. Dude was a Marine too. Arizona's not getting camo unis because of it, much less some flag-waving PR-driven ticket section.

I respect Pat Tillman. His death doesn't entitle ASU to wrap itself in the colors of the military like the actual service academies do. It's insulting, frankly.

This.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

Arizona belongs to ASU

Our head to head record would seem to suggest otherwise, but I'm not going to tax your ASU-educated brain with simple math by posting those numbers.

our head to head record in every major sport mind you

^This is only true when going back to the early 1900's when ASU was nothing more than a small college with a fraction of the that UA was receiving. If we are being realistic, the comparison should start in the 50's, and I believe they have a 10 game lead on us in football, but we absolutely own their asses in basketball. Not sure on baseball. No one cares about the other sports.

[Chicat]

Our head to head record would seem to suggest otherwise, but I'm not going to tax your ASU-educated brain with simple math by posting those numbers.

our head to head record in every major sport mind you

^This is only true when going back to the early 1900's when ASU was nothing more than a small college with a fraction of the that UA was receiving. If we are being realistic, the comparison should start in the 50's, and I believe they have a 10 game lead on us in football, but we absolutely own their asses in basketball. Not sure on baseball. No one cares about the other sports.

Why in the 50s? Why not in the 60's, 70's, 80's, or just from when both coaches came to the schools? Why not choose an arbitrary year because it sounds cool? Like 1985 for the Back to the Future reference or 2001 because of the book and movie about a space odyssey? Or we could just go back to the beginning of both football programs since that's the simplest and doesn't require some arbitrary cut-off date when we can start counting wins and losses.

Off topic a bit, but I've been trying to figure out from your screenname and posts which team you root for. Becoming murkier by the moment...

[scumdevils86]

^This is only true when going back to the early 1900's when ASU was nothing more than a small college with a fraction of the that UA was receiving. If we are being realistic, the comparison should start in the 50's, and I believe they have a 10 game lead on us in football, but we absolutely own their asses in basketball. Not sure on baseball. No one cares about the other sports.

I love this guy...you pretend to be a uofa fan but you obviously are an asu homer.

[Catstatic]

The jealously here is bubbling over. When will it set in that you thought you brought a shiny new Corvette, but ended up with a 1972 Pinto with no A/C? Maybe tonight will be the cold water on the face that you need to realize that your drowning and there is no one to help. Arizona belongs to ASU and that will not change.

Do you actually believe we are jealous? Seriously?

Graham's first two ASU teams have done better than I thought they would. I will give you that. You guys destroyed us last year. Fine. It happens.

However, compare his coaching history with RR's. RR was one of the most sought after coaches in the country, until the fiasco at Michigan. Regardless of who is to blame for that (and some of it belongs to RR), we now have a coach that said no to Alabama. I see no other way Arizona could ever have hired a coach with RR's pedigree, except through the unusual circumstances that got him fired at Michigan.

Graham texted his former team that he was leaving. He is fully committed to his current school, and will confirm this incessantly to anyone who will listen, until the next, better school comes along. A leopard does not change his spots, and part of Graham's "spots" is his soaring rhetoric. Positive reinforcement? How about simple honesty, or do you really believe him when he says this is his best team ever?

I would never, in a million years, trade RR for Graham. RR has a great sense of humor, tells his players and fans the truth, and is an absolute offensive genius. Graham? I'll admit I am biased, but the guy seems to be a used car salesman. Graham talks about Foster and Strong over and over and over again. Multiply that by 5 and that's the number of offensive stars the Cats have.

I have some concerns with our defense, but they are getting better each year. Still, what RR and Casteel have done is impressive. You think Graham could have gotten to 8 victories in a year where he had to start 5 walk-ons and 2 true freshmen on defense? Maybe, but highly doubtful.

You think Graham is the better coach? Great. We couldn't be happier with RR, so it looks like everyone is happy.

Go Cats!!

[devilswin99]

The jealously here is bubbling over. When will it set in that you thought you brought a shiny new Corvette, but ended up with a 1972 Pinto with no A/C? Maybe tonight will be the cold water on the face that you need to realize that your drowning and there is no one to help. Arizona belongs to ASU and that will not change.

Do you actually believe we are jealous? Seriously?

Graham's first two ASU teams have done better than I thought they would. I will give you that. You guys destroyed us last year. Fine. It happens.

However, compare his coaching history with RR's. RR was one of the most sought after coaches in the country, until the fiasco at Michigan. Regardless of who is to blame for that (and some of it belongs to RR), we now have a coach that said no to Alabama. I see no other way Arizona could ever have hired a coach with RR's pedigree, except through the unusual circumstances that got him fired at Michigan.

Graham texted his former team that he was leaving. He is fully committed to his current school, and will confirm this incessantly to anyone who will listen, until the next, better school comes along. A leopard does not change his spots, and part of Graham's "spots" is his soaring rhetoric. Positive reinforcement? How about simple honesty, or do you really believe him when he says this is his best team ever?

I would never, in a million years, trade RR for Graham. RR has a great sense of humor, tells his players and fans the truth, and is an absolute offensive genius. Graham? I'll admit I am biased, but the guy seems to be a used car salesman. Graham talks about Foster and Strong over and over and over again. Multiply that by 5 and that's the number of offensive stars the Cats have.

I have some concerns with our defense, but they are getting better each year. Still, what RR and Casteel have done is impressive. You think Graham could have gotten to 8 victories in a year where he had to start 5 walk-ons and 2 true freshmen on defense? Maybe, but highly doubtful.

You think Graham is the better coach? Great. We couldn't be happier with RR, so it looks like everyone is happy.

Go Cats!!

I am happy you are happy. Everyone is happy, so this is all so peachy and great! I just hope that if RR sees the success that you think he will, that he does not jump on the first Greyhound and hi-tail it out of Tucson faster than you can say Courtney Simpson. Only time will tell!

Toodles!!!

[Harvey Specter]

I watched a program once that said children preform better in school when they are told that they are doing well.

Positive vs negative motivation is the contrast in styles here. Unfortunately, positive motivation is far and away the better tool to use to spur improvements. Children and adults respond far better to someone who praises them and in turn this leads to better work ethic and general success.

It pains me to say this, but RR could learn a lot from the way that Graham praises his players. RR does do a good job of recognizing players who do a genuinely good job or show improvement. But if a player is struggling, RR is far harsher, and would be better served to use words like "improving, working hard, and motivated".

Wrong.

The vast majority the data from behavioral economics show that negative incentives have a greater improvement in behavior change relative to positive incentives. Basically, individuals are motivated by the concept of "loss" to a far greater degree than the concept of "gain".

Also, incentives in general only spur behavior change for 3-6mos at best. After 12, they lose their effect and removing positive incentives actually is a disincentive to a greater degree than the gains made initially.

Now, you'll likely be a contrarian and say that I am I am wrong, but I know this literature (i.e. more than one un-cited "study, but I'll find it later guys" concocted to support some subjective opinion). So I'll leave it at that.

I'll bite... I don't agree with your assertions above, and while I am not an expert on the subject of behavioral economics - I have read enough to be dangerous.

If what you assert above were true, then I suppose every caddie on the PGA tour would point out to their player how much they stand to lose over every critical 5-10 footer down the stretch of an event. Or maybe Miller should have pointed out to Gordon that his draft stock could drop before every trip to the free-throw line. That's a good way to be a miserable failure and out of a job... But it's certainly a "stick" as opposed to a "carrot".

Some studies cite that "negative reinforcement" after exceptionally poor performances produces better results, whereas "positive reinforcement" after exceptionally good performances produces a drop in performance level. While both instances are generally true, the results are widely misinterepreted - as in reality the change in successive performance is nothing more that simple regresssion to the mean, and has nothing to do with the "form of motivation" employed. To really measure the effectiveness of each approach you would need to have separate control groups and measure the relative performance change (in each control group) of each alternative approach. The degree to which statistics are mis-interpreted and mis-represented across all disciplines - including medicine, law, and business - is very troubling.

The fact of the matter is that phony positivity is not an effective form of motivation, and neither is negative reinforcement - it keeps people on edge and does not induce optimal performance. The problem most people have is that they equate being "easy" with "positive", and being "tough" with being "negative". That's a feeble interpretation... there are some very "tough" leaders who earn the "hearts and minds" of their faithful because their subordinates know how much they care about them. "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care" comes to mind, and rings true. The 2 most important elements to building a strong organization are trust and competence. It's quite common for an effective leader to be "tough but care", and equally common for an INeffective leader to be "soft and indifferent".

If you want to engage in a debate on a subject, then don't post your own assertion as fact (without ANY supporting documentation) but then challenge anyone disagreeing to provide a resource link. But since you asked, The opinions expressed above are documented in Principle Centered Leadership (Covey), The Drunkard's Walk (Leonard Mlodinow), and the research of Daniel Kahneman (scientist who won the 2002 Nobel-prize in economics) & Amos Tversky (cognitive and mathematical psychologist).

[Catstatic]

^^ Ouch. That's gotta hurt at least a little bit. You da man, Harvey!

Go Cats!!

[Puerco]

I'll bite... I don't agree with your assertions above, and while I am not an expert on the subject of behavioral economics - I have read enough to be dangerous.

If what you assert above were true, then I suppose every caddie on the PGA tour would point out to their player how much they stand to lose over every critical 5-10 footer down the stretch of an event. Or maybe Miller should have pointed out to Gordon that his draft stock could drop before every trip to the free-throw line. That's a good way to be a miserable failure and out of a job... But it's certainly a "stick" as opposed to a "carrot".

Some studies cite that "negative reinforcement" after exceptionally poor performances produces better results, whereas "positive reinforcement" after exceptionally good performances produces a drop in performance level. While both instances are generally true, the results are widely misinterepreted - as in reality the change in successive performance is nothing more that simple regresssion to the mean, and has nothing to do with the "form of motivation" employed. To really measure the effectiveness of each approach you would need to have separate control groups and measure the relative performance change (in each control group) of each alternative approach. The degree to which statistics are mis-interpreted and mis-represented across all disciplines - including medicine, law, and business - is very troubling.

The fact of the matter is that phony positivity is not an effective form of motivation, and neither is negative reinforcement - it keeps people on edge and does not induce optimal performance. The problem most people have is that they equate being "easy" with "positive", and being "tough" with being "negative". That's a feeble interpretation... there are some very "tough" leaders who earn the "hearts and minds" of their faithful because their subordinates know how much they care about them. "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care" comes to mind, and rings true. The 2 most important elements to building a strong organization are trust and competence. It's quite common for an effective leader to be "tough but care", and equally common for an INeffective leader to be "soft and indifferent".

If you want to engage in a debate on a subject, then don't post your own assertion as fact (without ANY supporting documentation) but then challenge anyone disagreeing to provide a resource link. But since you asked, The opinions expressed above are documented in Principle Centered Leadership (Covey), The Drunkard's Walk (Leonard Mlodinow), and the research of Daniel Kahneman (scientist who won the 2002 Nobel-prize in economics) & Amos Tversky (cognitive and mathematical psychologist).

That's good stuff, particularly the bolded.

[Puerco]

It's in the book, "The Post-American world" by Fareed Zakaria. I'm not going to spend the time to quote a book for you.

Basically, the argument is made that the lower classes of American citizens lower the score in comparison to other countries, whose lower class citizens are either not taking tests or aren't included in the data. Also, leaders in international test scores, like Sweden, have very few social differences in class and culture, and don't face the challenges of having to educate a student from the deep south in Mississippi and a student from Cambridge, Massachusetts, the same material.

The American education system is still far and away the best in the world. Not only does America still produce the highest number of educated students, there are more doctors, engineers, business leaders, and entrepreneurs trained here than anywhere else because of our incredible University system.

Are you saying that there is a greater disparity in income and/or opportunity within the American population than in the majority of other countries' populations around the world? That's laughable. I suppose that if you wanted, you could probably invent an excuse why American kids perform less effectively than those of each of the countries whose kids did better, but I don't think I want to play that game.

Regarding our 'incredible university system', I don't suppose you realize that compared to most graduates from first world societies, the typical American graduate would need a master's degree to compare effectively in the topic of the degree granted? Most other countries' universities put much more focus on the degree subject and less on humantities, social science, and English composition (for a math/science degree for example) than American universities do.

Oh, and stop talking numbers. China graduates many more numbers than the US does, so where does your final paragraph even come from?

[catinfl]

The jealously here is bubbling over. When will it set in that you thought you brought a shiny new Corvette, but ended up with a 1972 Pinto with no A/C? Maybe tonight will be the cold water on the face that you need to realize that your drowning and there is no one to help. Arizona belongs to ASU and that will not change.

Do you actually believe we are jealous? Seriously?

Graham's first two ASU teams have done better than I thought they would. I will give you that. You guys destroyed us last year. Fine. It happens.

However, compare his coaching history with RR's. RR was one of the most sought after coaches in the country, until the fiasco at Michigan. Regardless of who is to blame for that (and some of it belongs to RR), we now have a coach that said no to Alabama. I see no other way Arizona could ever have hired a coach with RR's pedigree, except through the unusual circumstances that got him fired at Michigan.

Graham texted his former team that he was leaving. He is fully committed to his current school, and will confirm this incessantly to anyone who will listen, until the next, better school comes along. A leopard does not change his spots, and part of Graham's "spots" is his soaring rhetoric. Positive reinforcement? How about simple honesty, or do you really believe him when he says this is his best team ever?

I would never, in a million years, trade RR for Graham. RR has a great sense of humor, tells his players and fans the truth, and is an absolute offensive genius. Graham? I'll admit I am biased, but the guy seems to be a used car salesman. Graham talks about Foster and Strong over and over and over again. Multiply that by 5 and that's the number of offensive stars the Cats have.

I have some concerns with our defense, but they are getting better each year. Still, what RR and Casteel have done is impressive. You think Graham could have gotten to 8 victories in a year where he had to start 5 walk-ons and 2 true freshmen on defense? Maybe, but highly doubtful.

You think Graham is the better coach? Great. We couldn't be happier with RR, so it looks like everyone is happy.

Go Cats!!

I am happy you are happy. Everyone is happy, so this is all so peachy and great! I just hope that if RR sees the success that you think he will, that he does not jump on the first Greyhound and hi-tail it out of Tucson faster than you can say Courtney Simpson. Only time will tell!

Toodles!!!

I think it's so funny that asu fans think TG will be there forever and RR will be on the first train out. Todd Graham got hired at Rice and declared it his "dream job." Sounds familiar huh? Left after a year for Tulsa spent four years there did well, but couldn't win the big games. Went to Pitt for a year then called his assistants mercenaries for leaving then three days later texts his team and is on a plane to Tempe. He's a slime ball and don't think for a second he'll stay in Tempe if a better school comes calling. Like Chicat said a leopard doesn't change his spots and TG will be outta there in a New York minute once a better school comes calling.

[catinfl]

I find it funny what TG does with his team. Everybody is an all star and every team is the best he's ever coached.

[devilswin99]

In order for TG to get a offer from a better school than ASU, he would need to have a pretty big season, so if we can do Rose Bowl or something equal, I am ready to make that trade. All Richey Rod needs to do is make the Las Vegas Bowl and he will be gone.

[azgreg]

I think it's so funny that asu fans think TG will be there forever

That's why they keep changing their uniform colors. Give Fraud Graham the sense of being on a different (dream) team.

[Scummy Dick Douglas]

Our head to head record would seem to suggest otherwise, but I'm not going to tax your ASU-educated brain with simple math by posting those numbers.

our head to head record in every major sport mind you

^This is only true when going back to the early 1900's when ASU was nothing more than a small college with a fraction of the that UA was receiving. If we are being realistic, the comparison should start in the 50's, and I believe they have a 10 game lead on us in football, but we absolutely own their asses in basketball. Not sure on baseball. No one cares about the other sports.

Why in the 50s? Why not in the 60's, 70's, 80's, or just from when both coaches came to the schools? Why not choose an arbitrary year because it sounds cool? Like 1985 for the Back to the Future reference or 2001 because of the book and movie about a space odyssey? Or we could just go back to the beginning of both football programs since that's the simplest and doesn't require some arbitrary cut-off date when we can start counting wins and losses.

Off topic a bit, but I've been trying to figure out from your screenname and posts which team you root for. Becoming murkier by the moment...

I said the 50's because I believe that is when they became a state university and received comparable funding. Some of you get your panty's in wad over the fact I am not going to brag about beating up on a team that was clearly not at our level. Its the equivalent of us playing Scottsdale Community College for 50 years, then the state decides to make them a full fledged university with comparable funding, and 50 years later we are desperately holding onto those 50 years they were a CC and absolutely no match for us. I am the guy that is not interested in playing a lesser quality to pad my wins. I want to beat the best, at full strength. Not saying ASU is the best, just showing my mindset and why I only consider the rivalry since 1950-whatever it was they became Arizona State University.

Have any of you noticed you only get touchy when this convo is in reference to football? If we talk ASU and basketball we laugh them off, because we clearly are a better product. But god forbid one of your own recognize that while what they have done in football is minimal, it is more than what we have done, and you asshats start calling out my allegiances.

[Salty]

It's in the book, "The Post-American world" by Fareed Zakaria. I'm not going to spend the time to quote a book for you.

Basically, the argument is made that the lower classes of American citizens lower the score in comparison to other countries, whose lower class citizens are either not taking tests or aren't included in the data. Also, leaders in international test scores, like Sweden, have very few social differences in class and culture, and don't face the challenges of having to educate a student from the deep south in Mississippi and a student from Cambridge, Massachusetts, the same material.

The American education system is still far and away the best in the world. Not only does America still produce the highest number of educated students, there are more doctors, engineers, business leaders, and entrepreneurs trained here than anywhere else because of our incredible University system.

Are you saying that there is a greater disparity in income and/or opportunity within the American population than in the majority of other countries' populations around the world? That's laughable. I suppose that if you wanted, you could probably invent an excuse why American kids perform less effectively than those of each of the countries whose kids did better, but I don't think I want to play that game.

Regarding our 'incredible university system', I don't suppose you realize that compared to most graduates from first world societies, the typical American graduate would need a master's degree to compare effectively in the topic of the degree granted? Most other countries' universities put much more focus on the degree subject and less on humantities, social science, and English composition (for a math/science degree for example) than American universities do.

Oh, and stop talking numbers. China graduates many more numbers than the US does, so where does your final paragraph even come from?

It's all in the book. Any look at engineering or basically any graduate or undergraduate major, and you'll notice a complete dominance of American universities. A quick look at graduation numbers shows that China may graduate more students with a population four times the size of the United States, however, a closer inspection of the data reveals that a large majority of the "engineering" students graduated from technical programs in non-accrediated schools, like what you would find at DeVry or University of Phoenix, and these students are not qualified to preform anything other than basic manufacturing duties.

The United States graduates more students in engineering than China, Japan, India, etc, even with the disparity in population and your statement on American Universities needing masters degrees is simply not true. American educated engineers are more informed, qualified, and preform better in the open market than their foreign educated counterparts. And that is unlikely to change for the foreseeable future.

http://www.studyabroad.careers360.com/t ... world-2014

The top 5 are all in the USA and 35/100 are American. That's complete and utter dominance.

[Chicat]

Why in the 50s? Why not in the 60's, 70's, 80's, or just from when both coaches came to the schools? Why not choose an arbitrary year because it sounds cool? Like 1985 for the Back to the Future reference or 2001 because of the book and movie about a space odyssey? Or we could just go back to the beginning of both football programs since that's the simplest and doesn't require some arbitrary cut-off date when we can start counting wins and losses.

Off topic a bit, but I've been trying to figure out from your screenname and posts which team you root for. Becoming murkier by the moment...

I said the 50's because I believe that is when they became a state university and received comparable funding. Some of you get your panty's in wad over the fact I am not going to brag about beating up on a team that was clearly not at our level. Its the equivalent of us playing Scottsdale Community College for 50 years, then the state decides to make them a full fledged university with comparable funding, and 50 years later we are desperately holding onto those 50 years they were a CC and absolutely no match for us. I am the guy that is not interested in playing a lesser quality to pad my wins. I want to beat the best, at full strength. Not saying ASU is the best, just showing my mindset and why I only consider the rivalry since 1950-whatever it was they became Arizona State University.

Have any of you noticed you only get touchy when this convo is in reference to football? If we talk ASU and basketball we laugh them off, because we clearly are a better product. But god forbid one of your own recognize that while what they have done in football is minimal, it is more than what we have done, and you asshats start calling out my allegiances.

From 1949 to 1959 when the debate over whether ASU would become a full-fledged state sanctioned university took place and then ASU eventually did become one, the Sun Devils won 8 out of 11 head-to-head matchups against the Wildcats. So obviously not getting comparable funding didn't hold them back one bit on the field. Then after becoming a state university, they proceeded to lose the next 4 out of 5 to the Wildcats.

So yeah, still seems like an arbitrary date to pick. Funding equality didn't seem to have any bearing on results on the field.