2016-2017 Arizona Basketball

TheGreatCatsby · Post by **TheGreatCatsby** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:02 pm

We do have a habit of giving up a lot of offensive rebounds, our point guard play isn't very good, and we go in scoring droughts. Not necessarily a good combination for the tournament, hopefully we give some sort of different look there or else yeah a first weekend exit like last year.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:03 pm

So much to say and I'm too much in a drunken rage to put it into a coherent rational fact based thought right now. If we can't figure out a zone we'll never get past the 2nd round. End of story. 12 fucking rebounds by our primary 3 frontcourt players tonight. 12. I can't even deal with that garbage effort right now.

RaisingArizona · Post by **RaisingArizona** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:05 pm

Calm down, Choo. We're going to make t to the second weekend. That 3-2 with Lonzo at the top is unique. I realized that we've struggled some with 2-3s, but this was different. A team tries that with a mortal point guard and it won't have that effect.

My question is this: WTF is Steve Alford smoking not run that full time. Hides Bryce and allows Lonzo to be a focal point on defense full time.

Frybry02 · Post by **Frybry02** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:20 pm

Definitely frustrated by the lost. It seemed like Trier was the only one that this game mattered too. The 3-2 zone definitely bothered us but the cats still shot 51% for the game. Finally started to to enter the ball to post but it didn't matter because we could do anything right on the other end, like rebound. The piss poor defensive rebounding and, I believe, Jeffries said 20 2nd chance points stands out in my mind. I have given up on Ristic and hope he never starts another game. With Trier back, this team no longer needs his offense and can't afford his liability defensively and rebound wise.

I am still ecstatic this team is 26-4, but this team's margin for error is definitely much smaller than the 2013-2015 teams.

I hope we get UCLA again. A great matchup for both teams.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:31 pm

Ristic should be used situationally. He can score on a few possessions, but as soon as the defense recognizes and swarms him, that ends the possession. He should come off the bench and then return to it while still looking good, and well before Miller is pissed about his defense, rebounding, and inability to pass the ball out.

Lauri should be the 5.

Rawle needs more burn at the 4, as does Chance. As does Pinder.

TheGreatCatsby · Post by **TheGreatCatsby** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:36 pm

^ Yep, Lauri really is our best 5, and let Dus come off the bench.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:36 pm

RaisingArizona wrote:Calm down, Choo. We're going to make t to the second weekend. That 3-2 with Lonzo at the top is unique. I realized that we've struggled some with 2-3s, but this was different. A team tries that with a mortal point guard and it won't have that effect.

My question is this: WTF is Steve Alford smoking not run that full time. Hides Bryce and allows Lonzo to be a focal point on defense full time.

Ill take that 3-2 over the 2-3 matchup any day of the week. There was a gaping hole in that middle the whole time and every time they doubled up in the corners our guys would hold the ball when two quick passes or a cut to the middle would have ended with an easy look. Most of the time it was just four wildcats standing around the perimeter passing it around the horn.

Frybry02 · Post by **Frybry02** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:38 pm

Longhorned wrote:Ristic should be used situationally. He can score on a few possessions, but as soon as the defense recognizes and swarms him, that ends the possession. He should come off the bench and then return to it while still looking good, and well before Miller is pissed about his defense, rebounding, and inability to pass the ball out.

Lauri should be the 5.

Rawle needs more burn at the 4, as does Chance. As does Pinder.

Ristic is a black hole. His awareness is awful. I would love to see this team run LM at the 5 and RA at the 4 ASU could pose the opportunity to run that lineup for an extended period of time.

RaisingArizona · Post by **RaisingArizona** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:44 pm

rgdeuce wrote:
RaisingArizona wrote:Calm down, Choo. We're going to make t to the second weekend. That 3-2 with Lonzo at the top is unique. I realized that we've struggled some with 2-3s, but this was different. A team tries that with a mortal point guard and it won't have that effect.

My question is this: WTF is Steve Alford smoking not run that full time. Hides Bryce and allows Lonzo to be a focal point on defense full time.
Ill take that 3-2 over the 2-3 matchup any day of the week. There was a gaping hole in that middle the whole time and every time they doubled up in the corners our guys would hold the ball when two quick passes or a cut to the middle would have ended with an easy look. Most of the time it was just four wildcats standing around the perimeter passing it around the horn.

But you have to get that pass by Lonzo who is uniquely long and anticipatory. That would normally be a purely gimmick D but when he's at the top it becomes a real issue for most team. If they went 2-3 we would have adjusted more quickly. When have we seen a 3-2? And beyond that, who can throw Lonzo at the top of a 3-2?

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:47 pm

We held UCLA to its 2nd lowest point total of the year. If our offense was just better in the second half or at the very least we could figure out how to rebound we would've won going away.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:47 pm

The saddest part, UCLA didnt even play well tonight. That was a PURELY, throw out a zone, outhustle them, and hit a couple big shots and send them home game. There are plenty of teams who will be double digit seeds in the tournament who can do that.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:51 pm

rgdeuce wrote:The saddest part, UCLA didnt even play well tonight. That was a PURELY, throw out a zone, outhustle them, and hit a couple big shots and send them home game. There are plenty of teams who will be double digit seeds in the tournament who can do that.

My fear exactly.

Frybry02 · Post by **Frybry02** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:51 pm

ChooChooCat wrote:We held UCLA to its 2nd lowest point total of the year. If our offense was just better in the second half or at the very least we could figure out how to rebound we would've won going away.

Give up 10 second chance points, cats win by 5. 26% of their points were 2nd chance. That is unbelievable.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:54 pm

Frybry02 wrote:
ChooChooCat wrote:We held UCLA to its 2nd lowest point total of the year. If our offense was just better in the second half or at the very least we could figure out how to rebound we would've won going away.
Give up 10 second chance points, cats win by 5. 26% of their points were 2nd chance. That is unbelievable.

They had 13 more shots than we did and we only outshot them at the FT line by 3. The entire story of the game in those two stats.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:58 pm

RaisingArizona wrote:
rgdeuce wrote:
RaisingArizona wrote:Calm down, Choo. We're going to make t to the second weekend. That 3-2 with Lonzo at the top is unique. I realized that we've struggled some with 2-3s, but this was different. A team tries that with a mortal point guard and it won't have that effect.

My question is this: WTF is Steve Alford smoking not run that full time. Hides Bryce and allows Lonzo to be a focal point on defense full time.
Ill take that 3-2 over the 2-3 matchup any day of the week. There was a gaping hole in that middle the whole time and every time they doubled up in the corners our guys would hold the ball when two quick passes or a cut to the middle would have ended with an easy look. Most of the time it was just four wildcats standing around the perimeter passing it around the horn.

But you have to get that pass by Lonzo who is uniquely long and anticipatory. That would normally be a purely gimmick D but when he's at the top it becomes a real issue for most team. If they went 2-3 we would have adjusted more quickly. When have we seen a 3-2? And beyond that, who can throw Lonzo at the top of a 3-2?

He cant outrun a pass, use his anticipation in your favor. And a lot of our guys who were having issues were just as long or longer.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:09 pm

Frybry02 wrote: I have given up on Ristic and hope he never starts another game. With Trier back, this team no longer needs his offense and can't afford his liability defensively and rebound wise.
.

About as well as you can sum things up in two sentences

PHXCATS · Post by **PHXCATS** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:40 pm

Trash rebounding, trash shooting, trash officiating and sub par coaching for Miller today and Arizona has an open look to tie the game late.

UCLA and Arizona are both really good but Arizona needs to fix some things and quickly.

dmjcat · Post by **dmjcat** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:00 pm

Just got back to Mesa after a long drive from Tucson. We lost due to to two issues:

1) Giving up too many offensive rebounds
2) Inability to attack their zone

At this point our ceiling is a #2 seed if we run the table in Vegas, and as low as a 4 if we drop a second round game to UCLA (I think we probably get a 3 under this scenario).

Unfortunately there are a lot of 5 & 6 seeds that can run an effective 2-3 zone.......the round of 32 is looking like a very likely exit point. At this point it is painfully obvious that Miller has no idea how to deal with a zone defense.

CSM is an outstanding recruiter, very good defensive coach, and an average to mediocre offensive coach. Unless he finds a way to deal with his offensive shortcomings he may not break through to the Final 4 while in Tucson.

RaisingArizona · Post by **RaisingArizona** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:32 pm

Everybody is overreacting. We got outhustled on the defensive boards to a ridiculous degree and shot as poorly as we could from the perimeter and we were in a one possession game against one of the best offensive teams of the last quarter century. We are a very good team. The idea that this loss exposed us as ripe for an early exit is a bit over the top IMO. We have an excellent chance of making the final four. Luck and a good draw will help, but this team is capable of beating anybody.

Olsondogg · Post by **Olsondogg** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:47 pm

RaisingArizona wrote:Everybody is overreacting. We got outhustled on the defensive boards to a ridiculous degree and shot as poorly as we could from the perimeter and we were in a one possession game against one of the best offensive teams of the last quarter century. We are a very good team. The idea that this loss exposed us as ripe for an early exit is a bit over the top IMO. We have an excellent chance of making the final four. Luck and a good draw will help, but this team is capable of beating anybody.

This is spot on, and said better than I have.

Can I add that the bigs need to not get out rebounded by Bryce Fucking Alford?

jsbowl16 · Post by **jsbowl16** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:23 am

We are now 2-3 against the top 25 this year with one win being against a very overated Michigan State team that might not make the tournament. If you throw in the loss to Butler who has been in the top 25 most of the season we are 2-4. This is the most troubling statistic right now. We have trouble beating other teams we would likely see in the sweet 16 and both of these wins are against man defense before teams realized we dont know how to beat a zone.

pokinmik · Post by **pokinmik** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:36 am

RaisingArizona wrote:Everybody is overreacting. We got outhustled on the defensive boards to a ridiculous degree and shot as poorly as we could from the perimeter and we were in a one possession game against one of the best offensive teams of the last quarter century. We are a very good team. The idea that this loss exposed us as ripe for an early exit is a bit over the top IMO. We have an excellent chance of making the final four. Luck and a good draw will help, but this team is capable of beating anybody.

Yep. Thanks for bringing some rational thought.

Half of the team played like complete dogshit and we still had a clean look to tie at the end. The offensive rebounds absolutely killed us. A lot of that is hustle and anticipation, but some of it is pure fucking luck too. Shit happens. The ball doesn't bounce your way and the calls don't go your way sometimes.

We won't be colliding with a team as good as UCLA until the E8, if that. This game just really sucked because Oregon has luckboxed two wins in a row and now we are possibly co-champs instead of sole, and the fucking Ducks get the 1seed in Vegas, avoiding UCLA in the semis.

The only silver lining is we should get another piece of the Bruins. I'm excited to watch the rubber match, hopefully it happens (it will). If we beat their ass in Vegas, which we are completely capable of, we will care very little about what happened last night!

Bear Down.

Frybry02 · Post by **Frybry02** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:26 am

I woke up this morning. The sun is rising. Another day and still think this team can make a deep run.

With that being said, I wonder if the coaching staff is putting their heads together in an attempt find the best lineup(s) for this team.

MrMeow · Post by **MrMeow** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:38 am

Frybry02 wrote:I woke up this morning. The sun is rising. Another day and still think this team can make a deep run.

With that being said, I wonder if the coaching staff is putting their heads together in an attempt find the best lineup(s) for this team.

I don't participate much much here, but .... it's the end of February, one regular season game left, and the coaching staff is still trying to find the best lineup(s)? Really?

Frybry02 · Post by **Frybry02** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:43 am

MrMeow wrote:
Frybry02 wrote:I woke up this morning. The sun is rising. Another day and still think this team can make a deep run.

With that being said, I wonder if the coaching staff is putting their heads together in an attempt find the best lineup(s) for this team.
I don't participate much much here, but .... it's the end of February, one regular season game left, and the coaching staff is still trying to find the best lineup(s)? Really?

I think it is fair question with trier now a month in, emergence of Comanche, PJC hot wave and Ristics ball watching.

TheGreatCatsby · Post by **TheGreatCatsby** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:47 am

Against zone defenses, it's still unclear to me why we're 1) so afraid to work the middle of the zone (if for the only purpose to suck the zone in so the ball can be kicked out for an open shot). Lauri could be just a beast in that middle of the zone role, in that he can drive to the hoop and make a layup or get fouled, and he can pass the ball out nicely... yet we do this maybe 1-2 times max all game with him, and 2)the zone is just filled with holes, and instead of getting dribble penetration which destroys zones (which we did nicely in the second half vs. Washington st), we just pass the ball around the perimeter and totally voluntarily decide to fall prey to the exact strength of a zone defense.

We simply need to employ different strategies in attacking a zone. For some reason we're overthinking it, and not doing the easiest things there are to beat a zone and keep teams from zoning us so much.

MrMeow · Post by **MrMeow** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:03 am

TheGreatCatsby wrote:Against zone defenses, it's still unclear to me why we're 1) so afraid to work the middle of the zone (if for the only purpose to suck the zone in so the ball can be kicked out for an open shot). Lauri could be just a beast in that middle of the zone role, in that he can drive to the hoop and make a layup or get fouled, and he can pass the ball out nicely... yet we do this maybe 1-2 times max all game with him, and 2)the zone is just filled with holes, and instead of getting dribble penetration which destroys zones (which we did nicely in the second half vs. Washington st), we just pass the ball around the perimeter and totally voluntarily decide to fall prey to the exact strength of a zone defense.

We simply need to employ different strategies in attacking a zone. For some reason we're overthinking it, and not doing the easiest things there are to beat a zone and keep teams from zoning us so much.

I saw that last night. Finally, very late in the game, Miller employed this with Comanche under the basket, and it worked.

Speaking of Comanche, seems he has developed the hands of a young Zeus. Bobbled the ball three times for turnovers.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:05 am

Gonzaga (L)

Butler (L)

UCLA (W)

Oregon (L)

UCLA (L)

1-4 vs top 25.

Have to think we'll be behind Oregon + UCLA in tournament seedings, unless we beat them both in the tournament. Else, Oregon gets a #2 in the West, UCLA #3 in the Midwest in Salt Lake city, Arizona gets shipped to the east in the South or East.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:09 am

That is a very troubling stat.

We can make valid explanations for each of those losses, but the reality is the cats didn't do enough of the little things right especially in the butler and UCLA part 2, to get us over the top.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:11 am

Yeah as it stands were a 3 out East. If we lose early in the tournament we could be a 4 out East.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:12 am

NYCat wrote:Gonzaga (L)

Butler (L)

UCLA (W)

Oregon (L)

UCLA (L)

1-4 vs top 25.

Have to think we'll be behind Oregon + UCLA in tournament seedings, unless we beat them both in the tournament. Else, Oregon gets a #2 in the West, UCLA #3 in the Midwest in Salt Lake city, Arizona gets shipped to the east in the South or East.

That's a fact. But I'd qualify the first two as very early games with missing key personnel. When it comes to playing top 5 (let alone top 25) teams, I'm more interested in what we'll do in Vegas in March than what we did in like November while missing Trier.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:28 am

RaisingArizona wrote:Everybody is overreacting. We got outhustled on the defensive boards to a ridiculous degree and shot as poorly as we could from the perimeter and we were in a one possession game against one of the best offensive teams of the last quarter century. We are a very good team. The idea that this loss exposed us as ripe for an early exit is a bit over the top IMO. We have an excellent chance of making the final four. Luck and a good draw will help, but this team is capable of beating anybody.

Disclaimer: Not picking on you individually here. At what point do we stop saying things like "dont overreact," "still plenty of time left" and treating glass half full or empty stuff like only a sip was taken.

UCLA may be a great offensive team but they were off last night. Lonzo Ball didnt do half of what he did against us in Pauley, Bryce only hit one ridiculous 3, and Welsh and Leaf just took what we gave them. Us getting outhustled is a huge issue. How many games this second half have we outhustled anyone for more than some spurts here and there? Why is a "tough, gritty sean miller team" getting outhustled by hollywood wannabe showtime lakers ass UCLA with Steve fucking Alford as their coach? At home? The last home game of the season you cant even let your nuts hang for the 14k plus who pay hundreds and thousands to fill the arena and give u a huge advantage? And it wasnt like you were playing for a conference title or anything, a 1 seed on the conference tourny and possibly a 1 seed in the NCAAs. Matter fact, we can use the game in Pauley here, how many conference games this year have we left happy, outside of just telling ourselves a win is a win. How many games have you been able to say "they looked good/great" and felt it was a great effort? At Cal, at Stanford, at UCLA? At USC had that near epic collapse so I have a hard time placing that w these other wins.

Yes we shot poor from outside. I dont consider games like this anomaly when we have had dofficulties against zones all year. Oh you guys are Kenpom 100-whatever in adjusted D? Eh, just throw a zone at us and thank me later. Big reason for our outside woes was Lauri, who has gone from
steve kerr to kirk walters from 3 down the backstretch and doesnt even want to take them anymore. This is a slump and its very real and its not an anomaly. We are a tough team when Lauri is Lauri from deep. That pushes us to an elite team, but without it we are just another top 25.

How many games this half have our bigs rebounded like shit and just let teams waltz into the paint for second chance buckets? How many games has Dusan been a black hole EVERYWHERE except when making inside buckets WHEN he is not acting like a double team is a swarm of 500,000 bees that he knew was coming but he still pivoted right into them. How many games this half has Lauri been getting hammered on the defensive end? How many 0fers and 1fers has Kobi had this second half? He's Iverson 25 % of the time and "no Kobi stop shooting" nearly the rest of the time. I can keep going on, these are macro and micro problems that have been here this whole time.

You can go down the schedule and game by game ask yourself, did we look/play like a top 10 team in this game? Yes, a win is a win and yes, winning ugly and on a bad night is basketball, but relying on that fortune isnt ideal when you get to a tournament where one loss is goodbye. Last I checked, Arizona fans may be the absolute last fns in America who should expect any great deal of fortune. So to avoid that, you improve and address the weaknesses to minimize your reliance on luck.

And this is not just on the players. If I ever saw Sean Miller in person id probably have to use every ounce in my body not to play groupie, but this is the first time ive been super critical of him. The players have to go out and perform but he is still tinkering w the lineups and rotations. Part of that is understandable, PJC and Chance have been playing well so there should be tinkering. But tinkering things back to Dusan starting when he is clearly causing significant issues on the offensive end and is a complete liability everywhere else? Why isnt Rawle getting 25-28 minutes a game when he is clearly the balancing piece for our offense? Why do guys hit a big 3 and immediately get pulled "because rotation" when they may be just getting into a flow and are clearly not tired or in foul trouble? Why are we back to one guy on the low block and four guys standing in fixed positions on zones? Why are we still running down shot clocks and can go a whole 30 seconds without even crossing the ball past the three point line?

This isnt an overreaction. The norm is this Arizona team is absolutely loaded and could be one of the four best teams in the country, yet we cant play like it for anything more than a game here or there or for bits and stretches of games.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:33 am

rgdeuce wrote:
RaisingArizona wrote:Everybody is overreacting. We got outhustled on the defensive boards to a ridiculous degree and shot as poorly as we could from the perimeter and we were in a one possession game against one of the best offensive teams of the last quarter century. We are a very good team. The idea that this loss exposed us as ripe for an early exit is a bit over the top IMO. We have an excellent chance of making the final four. Luck and a good draw will help, but this team is capable of beating anybody.
Disclaimer: Not picking on you individually here. At what point do we stop saying things like "dont overreact," "still plenty of time left" and treating glass half full or empty stuff like only a sip was taken.

UCLA may be a great offensive team but they were off last night. Lonzo Ball didnt do half of what he did against us in Pauley, Bryce only hit one ridiculous 3, and Welsh and Leaf just took what we gave them. Us getting outhustled is a huge issue. How many games this second half have we outhustled anyone for more than some spurts here and there? Why is a "tough, gritty sean miller team" getting outhustled by hollywood wannabe showtime lakers ass UCLA with Steve fucking Alford as their coach? At home? The last home game of the season you cant even let your nuts hang for the 14k plus who pay hundreds and thousands to fill the arena and give u a huge advantage? And it wasnt like you were playing for a conference title or anything, a 1 seed on the conference tourny and possibly a 1 seed in the NCAAs. Matter fact, we can use the game in Pauley here, how many conference games this year have we left happy, outside of just telling ourselves a win is a win. How many games have you been able to say "they looked good/great" and felt it was a great effort? At Cal, at Stanford, at UCLA? At USC had that near epic collapse so I have a hard time placing that w these other wins.

Yes we shot poor from outside. I dont consider games like this anomaly when we have had dofficulties against zones all year. Oh you guys are Kenpom 100-whatever in adjusted D? Eh, just throw a zone at us and thank me later. Big reason for our outside woes was Lauri, who has gone from
steve kerr to kirk walters from 3 down the backstretch and doesnt even want to take them anymore. This is a slump and its very real and its not an anomaly. We are a tough team when Lauri is Lauri from deep. That pushes us to an elite team, but without it we are just another top 25.

How many games this half have our bigs rebounded like shit and just let teams waltz into the paint for second chance buckets? How many games has Dusan been a black hole EVERYWHERE except when making inside buckets WHEN he is not acting like a double team is a swarm of 500,000 bees that he knew was coming but he still pivoted right into them. How many games this half has Lauri been getting hammered on the defensive end? How many 0fers and 1fers has Kobi had this second half? He's Iverson 25 % of the time and "no Kobi stop shooting" nearly the rest of the time. I can keep going on, these are macro and micro problems that have been here this whole time.

You can go down the schedule and game by game ask yourself, did we look/play like a top 10 team in this game? Yes, a win is a win and yes, winning ugly and on a bad night is basketball, but relying on that fortune isnt ideal when you get to a tournament where one loss is goodbye. Last I checked, Arizona fans may be the absolute last fns in America who should expect any great deal of fortune. So to avoid that, you improve and address the weaknesses to minimize your reliance on luck.

And this is not just on the players. If I ever saw Sean Miller in person id probably have to use every ounce in my body not to play groupie, but this is the first time ive been super critical of him. The players have to go out and perform but he is still tinkering w the lineups and rotations. Part of that is understandable, PJC and Chance have been playing well so there should be tinkering. But tinkering things back to Dusan starting when he is clearly causing significant issues on the offensive end and is a complete liability everywhere else? Why isnt Rawle getting 25-28 minutes a game when he is clearly the balancing piece for our offense? Why do guys hit a big 3 and immediately get pulled "because rotation" when they may be just getting into a flow and are clearly not tired or in foul trouble? Why are we back to one guy on the low block and four guys standing in fixed positions on zones? Why are we still running down shot clocks and can go a whole 30 seconds without even crossing the ball past the three point line?

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:04 am

I wish I knew Winger personally, because he made a long (non paragraph) post on the other site and good lord did he nail it on the head, and I'd love to tell him to post it here. There are an abundance of concerns if not issues right now and he let it all out there unfiltered and it's dead on, very similar to rgdeuce's post above.

Hank of sb · Post by **Hank of sb** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:07 am

RaisingArizona wrote:

Everybody is overreacting.

rgdeuce wrote:

This isnt an overreaction. The norm is this Arizona team is absolutely loaded and could be one of the four best teams in the country, yet we cant play like it for anything more than a game here or there or for bits and stretches of games.[/quote][/quote]

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Everything points to the coach. The 'molasses offense' has been going on for years now. If I ever saw a racehorse, it would be Kobi Simmons. Now Kobi has been rendered useless. (That's on Miller.) Why is Kadeem Allen our PG especially with PJC returning to playing well? (That's on Miller.)

I could go on.

Some things can not be explained. Whether Miller likes these type of questions or not, I wish someone would ask Miller several pointed questions. But they won't. It's not that Miller would change. It's not that he would admit to anything. It's to confront him. It's food for thought. It's for offseason analysis. It's to express frustration.

I'd like to know what Miller thinks about his own offense. Perhaps he could describe it for us. Or for his own sake.

TheGreatCatsby · Post by **TheGreatCatsby** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:16 am

What other site are you referring to? Or that not allowed here to share? I'm on this site because the old one had a weird meltdown and everybody left and at least some of those on that board seemed to come to this site.

Yes, I too would love to hear exactly what's Sean thoughts are on offense too, to see if he really has a good philosophy just his players aren't executing, or what's the problem.

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:27 am

TheGreatCatsby wrote:What other site are you referring to? Or that not allowed here to share? I'm on this site because the old one had a weird meltdown and everybody left and at least some of those on that board seemed to come to this site.

Yes, I too would love to hear exactly what's Sean thoughts are on offense too, to see if he really has a good philosophy just his players aren't executing, or what's the problem.

Scout premium. I don't want to take someone's words and post it here without their permission.

RaisingArizona · Post by **RaisingArizona** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:27 am

Well thought out response RG. I guess the element that we disagree on is not so much the particulars that led to our defeat but instead the degree to which these shortcomings are actually endemic in the program. I think we would agree that the most concerning aspects of last night's game were the following:

1.) defensive boards and in specific the lack of effort and commitment to grabbing those one and even two bounce loose ball rebounds

2.) our inability to attack the 3-2 zone

3.) chemistry and role definition that is less defined than it should be at this point in time.

As to the first, I have no idea why that occurred, but I am confident that this problem will be addressed. Have you found yourself in the past thinking that hustle was an issue with Sean Miller teams? Yesterday was a wake up call and I'm confident that we will get this aspect figured out.

As far as our struggles versus zone defense, we have taken awhile to find our rhythm against 2-3's but have generally been able to make adjustments in time to produce enough to win. I understand that was often against less than stellar competition, but I believe that the players generally have a plan of attack against the 2-3 and simply have to execute better. This 3-2 was fundamentally different and I think we got caught with our pants down. That is of course on Miller and is certainly disappointing, but when are we going to face a 3-2 with a complete force of nature prowling the top of it? That particular defense is unlikely to stop our march to Phoenix. Now I guess you can claim that a zone is a zone and we woul'd have struggled against a 2-3 all the same, but that simply is guess work. There have been times when we've played well against zones this year. Admittedly it's less frequent then Is preferable, but I fail to believe that we are especially likely to lose in the first weekend b/c of a 2-3 zone. In the second weekend, it's quite likely that every game is going to be a battle whether it's man to man or zone you are facing.

3.) I can't remember a year quite like this as far as suspensions and injuries. We definitely are at the eleventh hour and are still finding everyone's rolls as the roster is presently constructed. I will admit that this is unsettling, but I'm not sure what could have been done differently. We got our Alpha Dog back with 40% of the season left. That alone causes some serious adjustments to be made.

Lauri is either in a slump or has hit a wall in terms of fatigue. I certainly hope it's the former as the latter is less likely to be solved. He did however have two productive games last week just working the paint, so there is hope that he can be productive without finding his three point shot again.

I'm sure that some of you are going to roll your eyes when I bring up 1997, but there are two eerily similar occurrences here. 1.) Michael Dickerson was shooting around 50% from three for the first 60% of the year and went into an unbelievable slump (even more pronounced than Lauri's slump if I remember correctly).

2.). The integration of Miles Simon was still an ongoing process and had resulted in a sweep (on a very tough road trip of course) to end the year.

I'm not trying to bury my head in the sand, I just don't believe yesterday's outcome really changes my opinion on this team. We have a 15-35% chance to get to the final four depending on our draw. That hasn't changed IMO.

Hank of sb · Post by **Hank of sb** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:32 am

RaisingArizona wrote:Well thought out response RG. I guess the element that we disagree on is not so much the particulars that led to our defeat but instead the degree to which these shortcomings are actually endemic in the program. I think we would agree that the most concerning aspects of last night's game were the following:

1.) defensive boards and in specific the lack of effort and commitment to grabbing those one and even two bounce loose ball rebounds

2.) our inability to attack the 3-2 zone

3.) chemistry and role definition that is less defined than it should be at this point in time.

As to the first, I have no idea why that occurred, but I am confident that this problem will be addressed. Have you found yourself in the past thinking that hustle was an issue with Sean Miller teams? Yesterday was a wake up call and I'm confident that we will get this aspect figured out.

As far as our struggles versus zone defense, we have taken awhile to find our rhythm against 2-3's but have generally been able to make adjustments in time to produce enough to win. I understand that was often against less than stellar competition, but I believe that the players generally have a plan of attack against the 2-3 and simply have to execute better. This 3-2 was fundamentally different and I think we got caught with our pants down. That is of course on Miller and is certainly disappointing, but when are we going to face a 3-2 with a complete force of nature prowling the top of it? That particular defense is unlikely to stop our march to Phoenix. Now I guess you can claim that a zone is a zone and we woul'd have struggled against a 2-3 all the same, but that simply is guess work. There have been times when we've played well against zones this year. Admittedly it's less frequent then Is preferable, but I fail to believe that we are especially likely to lose in the first weekend b/c of a 2-3 zone. In the second weekend, it's quite likely that every game is going to be a battle whether it's man to man or zone you are facing.

3.) I can't remember a year quite like this as far as suspensions and injuries. We definitely are at the eleventh hour and are still finding everyone's rolls as the roster is presently constructed. I will admit that this is unsettling, but I'm not sure what could have been done differently. We got our Alpha Dog back with 40% of the season left. That alone causes some serious adjustments to be made.

Lauri is either in a slump or has hit a wall in terms of fatigue. I certainly hope it's the former as the latter is less likely to be solved. He did however have two productive games last week just working the paint, so there is hope that he can be productive without finding his three point shot again.

I'm sure that some of you are going to roll your eyes when I bring up 1997, but there are two eerily similar occurrences here. 1.) Michael Dickerson was shooting around 50% from three for the first 60% of the year and went into an unbelievable slump (even more pronounced than Lauri's slump if I remember correctly).

2.). The integration of Miles Simon was still an ongoing process and had resulted in a sweep (on a very tough road trip of course) to end the year.

I'm not trying to bury my head in the sand, I just don't believe yesterday's outcome really changes my opinion on this team. We have a 15-35% chance to get to the final four depending on our draw. That hasn't changed IMO.

This post reads like a long excuse.

You could have stopped with "endemic." (See your #2.)

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:38 am

I wouldnt trade Miller for the world and I still think he is one of the best coaches in the country top to bottom. But Millers philosophy is akin to the Seattle Seahawks. Win with defense, run the ball. It isnt pretty and many games will be closer than they could be, but in the end, you are going to win more consistently and have a chance to win pretty much every game you are in. Wear the other team down and win with the little things, eg: the turnover battle/teams beating themselves/having superior size/having the better talent in the end. Miller's stubbornness is a gift and a curse.

Just like the Seahawks, Miller has weapons he doesnt fully use at times. The Seahawks have their style of play and its a style I agree with. Just like I agree w Millers general philosophy. But, the Seahawks are at their best when they tell themselves, we can stick to our philosophy and still use one of the most dangerous weapons in the league, Russell Wilson, for the home run play when its available or when the running game is struggling to get more than 2 or 3 yard runs, or just because its available to us. I know everyone remembers the 43-8 drubbing of Denver. The offense u saw that game was not seattle football, and it was brilliant and obviously worked. Its a reason why we historically have tough times with Oregon. Stick to the gameplan doesnt work when Oregon is kryptonite to said gameplan. Sometimes you have to make some adjustments to adjust to what they are doing or what they are doing that is giving you problems. Having issues w the zone? Go small and dont give them a chance to get into their zone, or get guys in there who can crash the offensive boards and get them that way.

RaisingArizona · Post by **RaisingArizona** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:38 am

There is a thin line between an excuse and a reason. If you wouldn't mind explaining what in my post you disagree with Inwould definitely look forward to reading your response, Hank.

catgrad97 · Post by **catgrad97** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:56 am

Your posts, deuce, spell out the two biggest differences between Lute and Miller:

1. Lute was one of the best coaches in America at making halftime adjustments; and

2. With rare exceptions like freshman Iguodala and Hot Sauce, Lute let his horses run.

Love Miller too, but he hasn't shown either of those qualities to me since the Miami game at the Diamond Head Classic four years ago.

It was that same willingness to press early that gave Arizona its only NCAA tournament win over the team that now gives Miller fits: Wisconsin.

RaisingArizona · Post by **RaisingArizona** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:08 am

Did UCLA go to the 3-2 before half time? I don't remember seeing that look until the 14 minute mark in the second half. If that's the case, I'm not really sure yesterday was b/c of half time adjustments. As to letting our horses run, I'm assuming that means why didn't Zo take 20 shots last night? I think that definitely has some merit. All of our other horses didn't really seem in the mood to run las night for whatever reason.

One thing that Sean should work on is managing timeouts better. I think he micromanages too much early in the 2nd half and then ends up short of TOs during vital end of game situations.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:10 am

One of our zone issues is that our two most likely middle cutters (Lauri and Rawle) are freshmen. I don't like Bilas, but he had a lot of truth last night when he was talking about zone. Said it is the defense most likely to mess up a freshman.

That's a big part. Our upperclassmen were better against the zone, but Kobi, Rawle and Lauri really looked off against it. Moving and executing as a team is a premium against a zone, and we have issues with that.

NYCat · Post by **NYCat** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:11 am

Maybe it's time to kill the motion offense, Tony Bennett isn't doing the best job with it either.

Frybry02 · Post by **Frybry02** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:12 am

RaisingArizona wrote:Did UCLA go to the 3-2 before half time? I don't remember seeing that look until the 14 minute mark in the second half. If that's the case, I'm not really sure yesterday was b/c of half time adjustments. As to letting our horses run, I'm assuming that means why didn't Zo take 20 shots last night? I think that definitely has some merit. All of our other horses didn't really seem in the mood to run las night for whatever reason.

One thing that Sean should work on is managing timeouts better. I think he micromanages too much early in the 2nd half and then ends up short of TOs during vital end of game situations.

Yes they played it. Seemed to mix man and the zone a few times

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:20 am

Raising, you make great points and to be clear, I am not cashing in on this team at all. My point is, the clock is ticking and there is no urgency to sort things out. It's a perfect parallel to how our offense looks against the zone, no urgency and if you dick around til there is five left on the shot clock and dick around when there is two games left in the regular season, you are putting yourself in a tight spot and dont have a big margin for error.

At this point, its put up or shutup time. The last few games Miller has made it clear he is perfectly fine with giving certain guys 30-35 minutes a game. The cream has risen to the top and one of the creams is in the middle of a slump. Its clear we have enough cream to win in March, our slumping cream can still be cream with an easy adjustment, and we have enough supporting pieces to push us over the top.

PJC- has hit his stride. Hes shooting well, passing well, defending as good as someone with his limitations can, hes been consistent and hes confident. Let him loose.
Trier- has hit his stride offensively. Right now, hes a man among boys offensively and our clear alpha that will take over any game in March. Hes the Kemba Walker our two elite 8 teams against wisconsin badly needed.
Rawle- the perfect balancing piece to our offense. Has been incredibly consistent. We need his toughness, offensive balance, spot up shooting ability, ability to put the ball on the floor and muscle up and lay in a ball w his left hand. Hes the guy who can go grab us some Rondae offensive boards when our shots arent falling against a zone and get us two points in the middle of a drought.
Lauri- slumping but still capable of being an impact player. Get him some looks at three early. If hes not hitting and cant shoot his way out of this slump, he plays 15 feet in and stays active in that range. He can still give us big nights in that range and the D will have to worry about him.
Chance- when the offense is clicking and we arent forcing him to have an impact, he is at his best. He and Lauri stay active and mobile, rotating, setting screens and rolling, and by not playing stationary, crashing the offensive glass. These guys should be playing off our athletes for easy, quick finishes.

Kadeem- he limits us on the offensive end when hes in the game w too many ball stoppers, but hes an invaluable defender. He still gets major minutes but understand that if hes on the floor, certain others need to not be on with him. If we are doing fine defensively, you dont use him as much, if not, hes on more. If theres a guy who is killing us, Kadeems on him. Let the game itself be a barometer of how much he is used.
Kobi - when hes not on, encourage a picked up pace so he can play to his strengths because he can still be valuable if hes not hitting from outside. Get him moving, put him in a position where he can affect the game w his drive and speed. He, Kadeem, Rawle, PJC, and Zo are five guys who can run off a long board and finish or get to the foul line. If its not there, pull back and look for a cutter or open man and try to cash in a second time before the defense sets up.

Pinder- fills in a dire need due to matchup issues or certain team struggles or foul trouble. He can also run the floor and finish off others.
Dusan- if theres any sort of zone, only use in emergency foul trouble. If opponents are m2m, feel it out w him off the bench or only sub him when the matchup is optimal and hes not going to get murdered on both ends. As soon as it looks like hes going to hurt us or have no impact, yank him off.

Id like to see more Lauri and four wings, with Rawle playing the 4 as long as there isnt a huge size disadvantage and hes getting murdered on the defensive end. With Dusan off the floor and more mobile Options at the 4 and 5, get them moving and help clear out space inside so Trier, Kobi, etc can attack w their drive.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:22 am

Sure hope the players and coaches are pissed off this morning. I hope they go to ASSU and kick ass then go to the tourney and play hard nosed basketball and win it all and then we can tell Larry to F off again

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:28 am

NYCat wrote:Maybe it's time to kill the motion offense, Tony Bennett isn't doing the best job with it either.

The motion offense can be very effective against a zone. The issue is, we see a zone, and our motion offense isn't much of a motion offense

RaisingArizona · Post by **RaisingArizona** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:29 am

So we simply handled it better in the first half then? I guess I'm not sure what Miller was supposed to have adjusted to at half time. He of course failed to make adjustments during the second half, but going into half time it appeared that we had stemmed the tide.

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