Who's staying? Who's going?

[97cats]

Team definitely has Elite Eight potential

see, i think Arizona has another Final Four Caliber roster/team everywhere but the most important position on the floor, and that my friend is frustrating as all hell.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Team definitely has Elite Eight potential

see, i think Arizona has another Final Four Caliber roster/team everywhere but the most important position on the floor, and that my friend is frustrating as all hell.

With PJC, the question frequently is whether the players around him are good enough to win the important ones. He isn't going to be the one to win those ones.

[ChooChooCat]

Team definitely has Elite Eight potential

see, i think Arizona has another Final Four Caliber roster/team everywhere but the most important position on the floor, and that my friend is frustrating as all hell.

With PJC, the question frequently is whether the players around him are good enough to win the important ones. He isn't going to be the one to win those ones.

The fact Arizona has to play 4 on 5 though next season is disturbing.

[97cats]

With PJC, the question frequently is whether the players around him are good enough to win the important ones. He isn't going to be the one to win those ones.

see i look at it differently, although i think i understand what you're saying.

however, the PG not only is the player (specifically in college) who can take the game by the balls, dominate and win a game single handily, he is also the player who makes all the capable parts around him better, and in some cases (when the PG is ELITE) he makes those capable players better than they probably are in the first place, and pushes and leads them to overachieve.

also, leadership, accountability, and ownership all originate from the quarterback on the floor, and when coupled with the physical skills can make that PG dynamic and in turn make a team and all its parts stronger than it ever could be on its own.

in college, a good to solid PG can be either (physical or mental prowess) which you pointed out if their is capable and even ELITE level parts around him.

unfortunately, for Arizona, Cartwright has neither. he isnt a great player at all and is physically limited and hes an awful leader, he owns one of the worst demeanor's on the floor ive ever witnessed.

in fact, the argument can be made that a bad PG stunts the effectiveness of those around him.

for Cartwright, his poor attitude and body language can be a huge drain, especially in the big, tough games when the other players look to the coach on the floor to push, pull, guide and LEAD them through.

is he a nice kid? yes should he be starting at Arizona ? no

[HiCat]

is he a nice kid? yes should he be starting at Arizona ? no

Yeah, he's better coming off the bench. Hope Arizona can sign a prime time pg soon.

[Spaceman Spiff]

With PJC, the question frequently is whether the players around him are good enough to win the important ones. He isn't going to be the one to win those ones.

see i look at it differently, although i think i understand what you're saying.

however, the PG not only is the player (specifically in college) who can take the game by the balls, dominate and win a game single handily, he is also the player who makes all the capable parts around him better, and in some cases (when the PG is ELITE) he makes those capable players better than they probably are in the first place, and pushes and leads them to overachieve.

also, leadership, accountability, and ownership all originate from the quarterback on the floor, and when coupled with the physical skills can make that PG dynamic and in turn make a team and all its parts stronger than it ever could be on its own.

in college, a good to solid PG can be either (physical or mental prowess) which you pointed out if their is capable and even ELITE level parts around him.

unfortunately, for Arizona, Cartwright has neither. he isnt a great player at all and is physically limited and hes an awful leader, he owns one of the worst demeanor's on the floor ive ever witnessed.

in fact, the argument can be made that a bad PG stunts the effectiveness of those around him.

for Cartwright, his poor attitude and body language can be a huge drain, especially in the big, tough games when the other players look to the coach on the floor to push, pull, guide and LEAD them through.

is he a nice kid? yes should he be starting at Arizona ? no

I agree a PG can have that effect on a team and players. PJC will never be that guy, though.

That is the sort of guy I'd like to have, but unless Duval shows up, that guy isn't happening for us this coming year. I will say, Trier is someone who is willing to take the game on himself. We need to move toward letting Trier do things and encouraging Ayton to want to seize the game too. PG just won't be that for better or worse.

Faulting PJC for not being that guy is like faulting him for not being 6'6. It isn't happening. We need an adequate guy who rides the wave of the other guys.

[TucsonClip]

The most frustrating part of the past few years is that we ALL can spot the holes in the roster before the season even starts. Yet despite Miller's elite recruiting, he cant fill those holes in.

It maddening...

Next year we have another roster with elite talent, but the missing pieces are clear as day. Starting PG and anyone that can defend on the perimeter.

[Alieberman]

Who does deserve minutes on the roster at point?

Cartwright is the only PG on the roster -- what a fucking joke that is.

you have the #1 player in the country coming and an all around top five class with a returning All-American caliber player and a few young studs and Cartwright is all you have at point.

its maddening and all Sean Miler's fault

I think the reason you get so much blowback for your PJC opinion is because it comes across as PJC hate not a criticism of Sean Miller. This post clarifies your actual point though and it's 1 I agree with. I actually like PJC because in him I see a guy improving each year, giving us a great effort and maximizing his potential. But I agree his potential isn't as high as a starting pg on AZ should be... but again... it's not his fault. It is clearly Sean Millers fault for not seriously recruiting an elite pg for many years now.

[Longhorned]

Somebody can correct me, but to echo Alieberman, I thought the issue was the intentional closing of recruitment at the pg position, and the reason for doing so was precisely to protect PJC's role in the position. A recruit was on deck, and then got pushed away.

[gumby]

Regardless of what you think, your approach does make it seem like you despise the player.

Wouldn't he be the "worst coach on the floor" or some similar broadside if he's the issue? Just seems like a roundabout way to make the point, especially since you don't blame Parker.

It's like a mom haranguing a kid over and over, and after several months pass, she says, "It's not your fault you're the worst kid on the block. It's your father's fault that you have this laundry list of problems! Shall I go over them again?"

[Spaceman Spiff]

Regardless of what you think, your approach does make it seem like you despise the player.

Wouldn't he be the "worst coach on the floor" or some similar broadside if he's the issue? Just seems like a roundabout way to make the point, especially since you don't blame Parker.

It's like a mom haranguing a kid over and over, and after several months pass, she says, "It's not your fault you're the worst kid on the block. It's your father's fault that you have this laundry list of problems! Shall I go over them again?"

I'm not sure 97 is arguing it's Miller's fault (or Parker's) that PJC has issues. Parker's issues are immutable. I've always read 97's anger as being directed at the idea that we had a FF caliber team last year, but lacked a PG.

I share some of the bewilderment that we recruit boatloads of wings and posts, but seem to have protected PJC's spot.

[ChooChooCat]

Regardless of what you think, your approach does make it seem like you despise the player.

Wouldn't he be the "worst coach on the floor" or some similar broadside if he's the issue? Just seems like a roundabout way to make the point, especially since you don't blame Parker.

It's like a mom haranguing a kid over and over, and after several months pass, she says, "It's not your fault you're the worst kid on the block. It's your father's fault that you have this laundry list of problems! Shall I go over them again?"

I'm not sure 97 is arguing it's Miller's fault (or Parker's) that PJC has issues. Parker's issues are immutable. I've always read 97's anger as being directed at the idea that we had a FF caliber team last year, but lacked a PG.

I share some of the bewilderment that we recruit boatloads of wings and posts, but seem to have protected PJC's spot.

My guess is Miller is afraid of going the way of Ben Howland with Kendall Williams, which of course ultimately led to Howland's shitcanning.

[NYCat]

It's very clear what he's saying, PJC shouldn't be starting PG at Arizona and Miller should've brought someone in that's capable of doing it - leading a Final Four caliber team.

[Merkin]

It's very clear what he's saying, PJC shouldn't be starting PG at Arizona and Miller should've brought someone in that's capable of doing it - leading a Final Four caliber team.

Don't think anyone disagrees with that.

[Beachcat97]

Didn't we offer Fultz? And Justin Simon was supposed to be a PG (and a highly rated one). We're also going hard after Duval, no? Seems like Miller's targeting PGs; they're just not targeting AZ. Maybe Romar will help.

[gumby]

Regardless of what you think, your approach does make it seem like you despise the player.

Wouldn't he be the "worst coach on the floor" or some similar broadside if he's the issue? Just seems like a roundabout way to make the point, especially since you don't blame Parker.

It's like a mom haranguing a kid over and over, and after several months pass, she says, "It's not your fault you're the worst kid on the block. It's your father's fault that you have this laundry list of problems! Shall I go over them again?"

I'm not sure 97 is arguing it's Miller's fault (or Parker's) that PJC has issues. Parker's issues are immutable. I've always read 97's anger as being directed at the idea that we had a FF caliber team last year, but lacked a PG.

I share some of the bewilderment that we recruit boatloads of wings and posts, but seem to have protected PJC's spot.

Huh? Didn't say that. I'm referring to this.

"100% its not the kids fault and 100% the coaches fault (Sean Miler) not only for putting a kid in a position he wont be successful but also compromising what is a Final Four roster around him by having said player man the most important position on the floor."

So it's Miller's fault -- 100 percent. So why the repetition about the immutable traits rather than a pile-up of posts hammering Miller in the Sean Miller thread since the point all along has been: WTF, Sean Miller?

Confusing, to say the least.

[gumby]

It's very clear what he's saying, PJC shouldn't be starting PG at Arizona and Miller should've brought someone in that's capable of doing it - leading a Final Four caliber team.

Missing the point. Miller should catch the grief then. Not Parker ... over and over and over.

[Merkin]

Good article on Duke picking up a 3 star PG while waiting for decisions from Duval and Jackson.


http://www.cbssports.com/college-basket ... -kentucky/" target="_blank

[CalStateTempe]

Yeah that's called contingency planning.

[gumby]

I'll be over in the Sean Miller thread, if anyone wants to hit this head-on.

[97cats]

Missing the point. Miller should catch the grief then. Not Parker ... over and over and over.

the point, Cartwright is still playing, and Cartwright is still the guy, so while its Miller's fault that hasnt changed, Cartwright will still get critiqued by me, especially when people say that Arizona has one of the five best back-courts in the country going into next year (which is why i originally chimed in yesterday) or state that Arizona is one of the favorites for the final four.

regardless of whos fault, its Miller's BTW, i will say till the day is long that those opinions are not shared by me, and that the glaring hole in Arizona's all around FF caliber roster is at PG.

so just cause its not Parker's fault hes in the position hes in doesnt mean hes beyond critique -- i can tell you when he plays good (which isnt often) hes praised more than anyone.

im fair on this, people dont like the takes/opinions, thats fine.

but as long as hes the guy and plays, Cartwright is certainly not beyond praise or criticism from me just cause its not his fault hes in the position hes in at Arizona.

[rgdeuce]

Didn't we offer Fultz? And Justin Simon was supposed to be a PG (and a highly rated one). We're also going hard after Duval, no? Seems like Miller's targeting PGs; they're just not targeting AZ. Maybe Romar will help.

Well, Justin Simon was supposed to be a long-term project in terms of actually being a PG who could facilitate an offense. While that is fine and good if we have solid guys ahead of him who can carry the load while he develops into that, that was not the case and besides, there is a good chance his athleticism and projectability have him jumping at a draft before he develops into what we needed. Bringing in top talent is not the end-all with recruiting. You also got to fill immediate needs, look at long-term needs/the future, balance, and in this case, figure out why otherwise godly recruiting classes are always missing a solid point guard that addresses our needs, short term or long. Throwing offers out does not fix the problem, you have to figure out why we are not landing these guys and in the interim, at least go after a pure point that rates that may not necessarily be a top 30 or 40 guy.

I am probably too quick to defend Miller in many cases, but in this case we are in this position because of Miller. He has had three years of seeing PJC at the college level and is well aware of his limitations and what he brings to the table, absolutely no excuse that we are in May and 1) PJC is at this point, a lock for the starting PG position; and 2) PJC is the only point guard on the roster. This will be the third straight season wherein our starting PG situation has been limited to a converted JUCO transfer and PJC. I think more highly of PJC than probably quite a few posters here, but even then, there comes a time when you finally have to come to the realization that you need someone with experience racing cars to drive the big bad Nascar you have every single year, so to speak.

[Beachcat97]

Again, Miller has offered scholarships to high level PGs lately, so I don't see how that's on him.

[PHXCATS]

Again, Miller has offered scholarships to high level PGs lately, so I don't see how that's on him.

Not his fault he cant close?

[Merkin]

Again, Miller has offered scholarships to high level PGs lately, so I don't see how that's on him.

Not his fault he cant close?

Don't think Miller can handle coffee, he is intense enough.


RichRod also offers elite athletes, but ends up with 3 star mid-major recruits.

[Beachcat97]

Again, Miller has offered scholarships to high level PGs lately, so I don't see how that's on him.

Not his fault he cant close?

Well, in that case, why stop at PG? There are plenty of other key players whom, if we'd landed, we may've been in the FF recently. Rabb and Jackson come to mind.

Why isn't Miller as successful landing PGs as he is landing other players? Is there a perception problem at AZ? Are other programs seen as better places for PGs these days?

[gronk4heisman]

I am pretty sure Duval has yet to commit, so say he isn't coming here all you want but it has not been determined yet.

Also, PG's like lead the team. Sean Miller does not really like his players to have freedom, hence the struggle in recruiting PGs under this regime.

[rgdeuce]

Beach, what you are saying is akin to a guy who steps up to the plate 10 times and strikes out all 10 because he cant hit a curveball and comes back saying, "Well, I swung at every pitch." There are always adjustments to be made and even with offers, we don't know how hard each respective PG is being pursued, if he is putting all of his eggs in the wrong baskets, etc. The reality is, if you are striking out with what you are going after, then adjust and/or go after something else. Whatever is happening right now is clearly not giving us a point guard that is even close to being on the same level as the bulk of what we bring in and it is holding back teams to a degree. Hell, if he took a chance on a 3 star guy after PJCs freshman year, that guy likely would have had sufficient playing time to be happy and entering his junior season. Worst case we have depth we dont have right now.

[Beachcat97]

Beach, what you are saying is akin to a guy who steps up to the plate 10 times and strikes out all 10 because he cant hit a curveball and comes back saying, "Well, I swung at every pitch." There are always adjustments to be made and even with offers, we don't know how hard each respective PG is being pursued, if he is putting all of his eggs in the wrong baskets, etc. The reality is, if you are striking out with what you are going after, then adjust and/or go after something else. Whatever is happening right now is clearly not giving us a point guard that is even close to being on the same level as the bulk of what we bring in and it is holding back teams to a degree. Hell, if he took a chance on a 3 star guy after PJCs freshman year, that guy likely would have had sufficient playing time to be happy and entering his junior season. Worst case we have depth we dont have right now.

Is it possible that he's spent more time recruiting guys like Lauri, Stanley, Aaron, DeAndre, etc. than he has watching elite PGs over the last few seasons? Does he tilt his efforts towards a PG at the possible risk of losing these elite wings/forwards he's been landing?

Or maybe Romar helps us solve this. Now we can effectively have two "head coaches" out recruiting different players in the same weekend. If we don't land a good PG in the '18 class, I'd be fairly surprised.

[rgdeuce]

I am pretty sure Duval has yet to commit, so say he isn't coming here all you want but it has not been determined yet.

Also, PG's like lead the team. Sean Miller does not really like his players to have freedom, hence the struggle in recruiting PGs under this regime.

Im not completely buying the freedom thing. I'm sure it may be a factor with some when deciding Kentucky or Kansas vs Arizona. You look at football programs like LSU and Alabama, whose general style is win with defense, special teams play, and by winning the turnover battle and controlling the clock (ie: load up on top running backs and run the ball), yet they have no issues landing both highly coveted pro-style and dual threat QBs. As a pro-style, pocket passing QB, you know you go to those schools and your job is to hand off the ball, limit turnovers with safe passes, and in a perfect world, only need to make a few "big/dangerous" throws in a game. There are certainly better places for dual-threat QBs to go to. You know why they still choose those boring ass schools? Because many elite athletes love to win and love being surrounded by and playing with a bunch of equally talented studs.

[rgdeuce]

Beach, what you are saying is akin to a guy who steps up to the plate 10 times and strikes out all 10 because he cant hit a curveball and comes back saying, "Well, I swung at every pitch." There are always adjustments to be made and even with offers, we don't know how hard each respective PG is being pursued, if he is putting all of his eggs in the wrong baskets, etc. The reality is, if you are striking out with what you are going after, then adjust and/or go after something else. Whatever is happening right now is clearly not giving us a point guard that is even close to being on the same level as the bulk of what we bring in and it is holding back teams to a degree. Hell, if he took a chance on a 3 star guy after PJCs freshman year, that guy likely would have had sufficient playing time to be happy and entering his junior season. Worst case we have depth we dont have right now.

Is it possible that he's spent more time recruiting guys like Lauri, Stanley, Aaron, DeAndre, etc. than he has watching elite PGs over the last few seasons? Does he tilt his efforts towards a PG at the possible risk of losing these elite wings/forwards he's been landing?

Or maybe Romar helps us solve this. Now we can effectively have two "head coaches" out recruiting different players in the same weekend. If we don't land a good PG in the '18 class, I'd be fairly surprised.

I dont know. Its possible I guess. The whole thing doesn't make sense to me and if I try, I always talk myself out of that being the particular reason. The guys you mentioned though, those are guys you HAVE to go balls deep on (pause) to land, there is no sacrificing that. I'm sure he goes balls deep on PGs he has whiffed on as well, in which case, maybe let Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, etc., go balls deep on the top 10-20 PGs and only go 3/4 in on them and save the balls deep for the guys in the 20-50 range, at least til you have more than 1 true point guard on a roster.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Again, Miller has offered scholarships to high level PGs lately, so I don't see how that's on him.

Not his fault he cant close?

Well, in that case, why stop at PG? There are plenty of other key players whom, if we'd landed, we may've been in the FF recently. Rabb and Jackson come to mind.

Why isn't Miller as successful landing PGs as he is landing other players? Is there a perception problem at AZ? Are other programs seen as better places for PGs these days?

Because when we missed on Jackson, we wound up with Alkins, Trier and Simmons on the wing. When we missed on Rabb, we wound up with Dusan, Ryan Anderson and Lauri. PG is so much weaker than those rotations.

[Beachcat97]

I dont know. Its possible I guess. The whole thing doesn't make sense to me and if I try, I always talk myself out of that being the particular reason. The guys you mentioned though, those are guys you HAVE to go balls deep on (pause) to land, there is no sacrificing that. I'm sure he goes balls deep on PGs he has whiffed on as well, in which case, maybe let Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, etc., go balls deep on the top 10-20 PGs and only go 3/4 in on them and save the balls deep for the guys in the 20-50 range, at least til you have more than 1 true point guard on a roster.

Well, if our fortunes increase PG-wise over the next couple seasons, it'll be hard not to credit Romar. Between him and Miller, I find it very hard to believe we won't land an elite PG in our '18 or '19 class. And who knows what Duval might do? If he shocks us all and commits to AZ, 97 may have to revise some of what he's written in this thread.

[EVCat]

This isn't a Miller era thing, though...We landed Josiah, who EVERYONE wanted, Momo was very good, Lyons was a score-first point but was successful, and then we had TJ.

It's only been since TJ left that we have suffered at the point. And it appears that is partially due to fear of Ramon going Ramon. But Miller has not totally missed his entire time here at point. It's more a collision of a couple of factors that have led to our current situation. And many programs would be happy with PJC at point...just not us, not with the talent we have around him.

[Beachcat97]

And many programs would be happy with PJC at point...just not us, not with the talent we have around him.

Yeah. When we're getting closer and closer to starting a future NBA player at every position, PJC doesn't exactly measure up.

I mean, look guys, unless Duval commits to AZ, PJC is our guy for next season. Is it ideal? No. Does it mean we'll lose in the second weekend again? Maybe. Is it possible he continues his recent trajectory and is good enough to complement an otherwise excellent team next year? Yeah, I think so.

[Spaceman Spiff]

This isn't a Miller era thing, though...We landed Josiah, who EVERYONE wanted, Momo was very good, Lyons was a score-first point but was successful, and then we had TJ.

It's only been since TJ left that we have suffered at the point. And it appears that is partially due to fear of Ramon going Ramon. But Miller has not totally missed his entire time here at point. It's more a collision of a couple of factors that have led to our current situation. And many programs would be happy with PJC at point...just not us, not with the talent we have around him.

Momo was a result of a desperate push to pull what we could. Lyons was a result of the Josiah flameout. Josiah was more of a character misread at a time we weren't really that choosy.

It's a semi-viable argument that PJC being the man is the only true miss of Miller's PG recruiting. The others...well, it's easy to argue it is the best we could do in that particular situation.

[NYCat]

This isn't a Miller era thing, though...We landed Josiah, who EVERYONE wanted, Momo was very good, Lyons was a score-first point but was successful, and then we had TJ.

Lyons, TJ were transfers, Momo was just desperation for anyone. Josiah and PJC are the ONLY point guards Miller has landed. Plenty of wings, guards, big men and even over recruitment at those positions, but only those PGs. It's amazing he hasn't even recruited for PG depth either.

[PHXCATS]

This isn't a Miller era thing, though...We landed Josiah, who EVERYONE wanted, Momo was very good, Lyons was a score-first point but was successful, and then we had TJ.

It's only been since TJ left that we have suffered at the point. And it appears that is partially due to fear of Ramon going Ramon. But Miller has not totally missed his entire time here at point. It's more a collision of a couple of factors that have led to our current situation. And many programs would be happy with PJC at point...just not us, not with the talent we have around him.

Momo was a result of a desperate push to pull what we could. Lyons was a result of the Josiah flameout. Josiah was more of a character misread at a time we weren't really that choosy.

It's a semi-viable argument that PJC being the man is the only true miss of Miller's PG recruiting. The others...well, it's easy to argue it is the best we could do in that particular situation.

1) I am a firm believer that the pg spot is not what kept Arizona back the last two years. If it is it is due to the starting pg getting in early foul trouble and not talent.

2)It has been 8 years now under Miller, dont give me the best we could do crap at this stage.

[97cats]

1) I am a firm believer that the pg spot is not what kept Arizona back the last two years. If it is it is due to the starting pg getting in early foul trouble and not talent.

i am a firm believer that youre Machina

kick rocks

[prh]

This isn't a Miller era thing, though...We landed Josiah, who EVERYONE wanted, Momo was very good, Lyons was a score-first point but was successful, and then we had TJ.

Lyons, TJ were transfers, Momo was just desperation for anyone. Josiah and PJC are the ONLY point guards Miller has landed. Plenty of wings, guards, big men and even over recruitment at those positions, but only those PGs. It's amazing he hasn't even recruited for PG depth either.

How can you say that Miller didn't land Lyons, TJ, or Momo? Just because he didn't get them here out of high school (although Miller did get Lyons out of HS, just not at Arizona), doesn't mean they magically showed up without Miller doing anything.

[Merkin]

Momo and Lyons weren't PGs, they were at best 2Gs trying to play PG. Combo guards that were only OK at playing the point.

When Momo went to Iona he was primary just a 2G, his natural position.

Just really hard finding a true PG like TJ.

[NYCat]

Kobi was also listed as a PG, but anyone who watched him knows he isn't one.

Jahvon Quinelry 2018 plz

[prh]

Ahh ok I misunderstood the previous post, I interpreted "only" as "only players landed," not "only PGs." Continue everyone...

[Beachcat97]

Momo and Lyons weren't PGs, they were at best 2Gs trying to play PG. Combo guards that were only OK at playing the point.

When Momo went to Iona he was primary just a 2G, his natural position.

Just really hard finding a true PG like TJ.

It's possible that Gabe York was even at one time regarded as a PG, which is ridiculous.

[Spaceman Spiff]

This isn't a Miller era thing, though...We landed Josiah, who EVERYONE wanted, Momo was very good, Lyons was a score-first point but was successful, and then we had TJ.

It's only been since TJ left that we have suffered at the point. And it appears that is partially due to fear of Ramon going Ramon. But Miller has not totally missed his entire time here at point. It's more a collision of a couple of factors that have led to our current situation. And many programs would be happy with PJC at point...just not us, not with the talent we have around him.

Momo was a result of a desperate push to pull what we could. Lyons was a result of the Josiah flameout. Josiah was more of a character misread at a time we weren't really that choosy.

It's a semi-viable argument that PJC being the man is the only true miss of Miller's PG recruiting. The others...well, it's easy to argue it is the best we could do in that particular situation.

1) I am a firm believer that the pg spot is not what kept Arizona back the last two years. If it is it is due to the starting pg getting in early foul trouble and not talent.

2)It has been 8 years now under Miller, dont give me the best we could do crap at this stage.

In 8 years, two have been marked with great PG play in TJ. Momo/Nic would qualify as good PG play for me. Josiah gave us an average year. I vacillate between average to good for Lyons. PJC has two of the weaker years.

This just isn't some awful record of how players are producing.

[SCCats]

Kobi was also listed as a PG, but anyone who watched him knows he isn't one.

Justin Simon was similar. I'm always pretty leery of these guys that are listed as PG/SG combos that we expect to play PG but their tape makes them look largely look like SGs who now kinda want to make the transition to PG so they can make it (or make more $) in the NBA.

[PHXCATS]

This isn't a Miller era thing, though...We landed Josiah, who EVERYONE wanted, Momo was very good, Lyons was a score-first point but was successful, and then we had TJ.

It's only been since TJ left that we have suffered at the point. And it appears that is partially due to fear of Ramon going Ramon. But Miller has not totally missed his entire time here at point. It's more a collision of a couple of factors that have led to our current situation. And many programs would be happy with PJC at point...just not us, not with the talent we have around him.

Momo was a result of a desperate push to pull what we could. Lyons was a result of the Josiah flameout. Josiah was more of a character misread at a time we weren't really that choosy.

It's a semi-viable argument that PJC being the man is the only true miss of Miller's PG recruiting. The others...well, it's easy to argue it is the best we could do in that particular situation.

1) I am a firm believer that the pg spot is not what kept Arizona back the last two years. If it is it is due to the starting pg getting in early foul trouble and not talent.

2)It has been 8 years now under Miller, dont give me the best we could do crap at this stage.

In 8 years, two have been marked with great PG play in TJ. Momo/Nic would qualify as good PG play for me. Josiah gave us an average year. I vacillate between average to good for Lyons. PJC has two of the weaker years.

This just isn't some awful record of how players are producing.

Here is my line of thinking. The best years Arizona has seen under Miller have been under TJ. TJ was not a five star with loads of 5 stars all around him. A team player pass first guy is more important that a extremely talented pg. A guy trying to get his and showing off for the nba would take away from others abilities. I think a shoot first or extremely talented pg could hold the team back from reaching full effectiveness.

However maybe a new line of thinking is needed but I think some adjustments to play calling/rotation/time outs/etc is the quickest route to the final four and not a roster adjustment.

[Merkin]

It's possible that Gabe York was even at one time regarded as a PG, which is ridiculous.

Talk about bringing back some awful memories when York had the ball for a final shot 3 games one season, and every time he mishandled the ball, and ended up with a terrible shot.

[PHXCATS]

What is the real issue with PJC? Turnovers? Points? Boards? Assists?

Per 40 Minutes the drop from TJ as a senior vs PJC as a jr is not that great.

TJ per 40 minutes senior year 13.6 Points 8.3 Assists 5 Rebounds 2.9 Steals 2.8 Turnovers 49.8% FG 32.1% 3PG 82.9% FT
PJC per 40 minutes last year (jr year) 9.5 Points 6.6 Assists 4 Rebounds 1.9 Steals 2.1 Turnovers 42.9% FG 42.3% 3PG 70.4 FT

The team shot better from the field in TJ's senior year than the UA team did last year, not that it makes a 1.7 assist difference per game though.

Much more concerned about the defense of Allen leaving than anything else with the pg position.

[EVCat]

This isn't a Miller era thing, though...We landed Josiah, who EVERYONE wanted, Momo was very good, Lyons was a score-first point but was successful, and then we had TJ.

Lyons, TJ were transfers, Momo was just desperation for anyone. Josiah and PJC are the ONLY point guards Miller has landed. Plenty of wings, guards, big men and even over recruitment at those positions, but only those PGs. It's amazing he hasn't even recruited for PG depth either.

Transfers are recruited. They still play.

I think Spiff put it better than me above...until now, Miller did the best at the position with the situation at hand. But coming off the success of TJ, we should have had a better follow up