Bribery Scandal - FBI Probe - Book Richardson Involved

[Beachcat97]

Is there any conceivable way this season proceeds as business as usual? I'm having a hard time seeing how all of this gets completed, somewhat resolved, and remedied before the season tips off. Even if the NCAA's own investigation is postponed while the Feds are doing their work, you can already see the dark clouds over the sport that extend from here to the Final Four. Seems any chance for a "normal" season has disappeared.

Will Miller be fired? Will AZ players be ruled ineligible? Is the university trying to protect Miller and mitigate damages to the school and program? Does anyone really believe Miller has done nothing wrong here?

So much hanging in the balance.

[Slappy]

Seems like you are holding out hope that we get "grouped" with other programs, and somehow escape severe punishment. At least that is how I read your comments. I hope you are right, and this blows over without the loss of our coach and loss of players and overall program.

How many message boards does slappy visit to post that same thing today? Don't forget to change the program name before posting.

You are in stage 1. I have read this board, and the old AZ message board for years. I am class of 1999. I think you are a good dude and post some good stuff.

What am I in denial about?

[Olsondogg]

Seems like you are holding out hope that we get "grouped" with other programs, and somehow escape severe punishment. At least that is how I read your comments. I hope you are right, and this blows over without the loss of our coach and loss of players and overall program.

How many message boards does slappy visit to post that same thing today? Don't forget to change the program name before posting.

You are in stage 1. I have read this board, and the old AZ message board for years. I am class of 1999. I think you are a good dude and post some good stuff.

What am I in denial about?

So again, what am I in denial about?

[Slappy]

That we don't get severe punishment, and things will go on as normal. At least, that is how I read it.

Seems like you are holding out hope that we get "grouped" with other programs, and somehow escape severe punishment. At least that is how I read your comments. I hope you are right, and this blows over without the loss of our coach and loss of players and overall program.

How many message boards does slappy visit to post that same thing today? Don't forget to change the program name before posting.

You are in stage 1. I have read this board, and the old AZ message board for years. I am class of 1999. I think you are a good dude and post some good stuff.

What am I in denial about?

So again, what am I in denial about?

[billk78]

Thank you everyone, especially 97 for the insight into all of this.

Question for 97: I know Miller is off the hook with the FBI and has been cooperating. But is there still a chance he is let go by Arizona or punished by the NCAA because of all this. I'm worried about the NCAA basically saying he was in charge so what Book did ultimately falls on Miller's shoulders. Or perhaps U of A feels the need to save face and reboot the whole program.

Seems like everyone here is reacting differently. For some the sky is falling and Arizona Hoops needs to rebuild and could take years to do so. Others feel that since Miller isn't implicated yet, perhaps all that will happen is Book and Quinnerly gone (best case scenario). Which situation is more realistic?

[SirClinks]

The 5 stages of grief thing is totally bogus BTW mr Slappy. It seems most people on the board aren't actually in denial just accepting that this whole thing has a loooooooooooong way to go before we really know anything.

[Chicat]

Are these dumb responses?

What would the revenue source be?

TV, ticket sales, licensing from numbered jerseys with name on the back

Same for all schools?

No.

Where would the games be played?

Same as now.

Would they have to attend classes, or is that charade continued?

It doesn't have to be a charade. Schools already have a policy of excused absences for road games and tourneys.

If not, what's the connection to college? Or are you advocating the club sport model?

N/A

Who would be "the best players?" Don't pay the others? If not, how to stop them from getting paid under the table?

Equal and shared division of percentage of ticket sales and proceeds and TV. I don't know how to stop anyone from getting paid under the table.


Pay the swimmers and cross country runners, too? Or just the ones in revenue-generating sports? What if basketball doesn't make money at a school? Don't pay those players?

By demand.Most student athletes are just on scholarship without pay.

Pay boys more than girls?

If that's where demand is, which it is.


Who negotiates this pay? Can it be more at one school than another, like the pros?

Yes, more at one school than another.

I would never say, dumb. But I'd want it fleshed out more to see what the landscape would look like once implemented.

Would the players be employees? As such could they "take a job" at another school anytime they want (like professors and other employees can?). Even midseason?

What would effects of federal labor law be on this arrangement? How would it affect tax status of a supposedly nonprofit institution? I think it's already been ruled that players can form a union. With direct pay, this idea seems like it would take off. With collective bargaining what other things could they or would they demand?

What would become of other sports as bidding goes up and schools need more money to bid? Cut them?

Stuff like that.

Outlaw institution and coach shoe contracts and allow individual players to negotiate their own. Then if Nike wants to pony up $150k to a kid in any sport, they can, and the school isn't involved.

[Hank of sb]

There's a pattern of misreading the situation in this thread: this notion that there's a segment of posters who are in denial. Nobody in this thread has shown doubts that Arizona basketball as we know it is doomed. That's not the issue. The issue is whether all of college basketball as we know it is doomed.

Well put. However, the hoped for outcome, i.e., college basketball implodes, won't help many here. And therein lies the denial.

Even if the NCAA goes down which, today, seems plausible, and even if college basketball is rebuilt in a different mold--a good one, updated for the times with better rules and enforcement--Arizona and the 5/6/7 others (lets not quibble, maybe the list will grow) will remain in ruin.

All the while, our rivals will skate (save USC); all of the traditionally great programs--Kansas, Duke UNC, UCLA etc. will move seamlessly to a restructured landscape. They will recruit well now; they will recruit well after the fact; they will applaud the change along the way and they will remain smug seeing a superior position not only maintained......but enhanced! I don't see blood for them.

So, yes, Arizona is "doomed." And yes, the NCAA may be doomed (likely). But Arizona, twisting in the wind, looks an also ran for a long long time. Indeed looming sanctions, whatever they will be, may not be forthcoming for dozens of months. Recruiting impossible. The stain sticking like tar.

Can this unfold another way?

Don't know. Don't really think so.

So I believe the best way forward is the best way out-- a proactive school president and AD can proactively clean house. Now. Clean it up today. In other words, beat the NCAA, every critic and every pundit to the punch. Have a season for pride. Without an overhanging cloud; with a great roster (less 1/2.) Produce a great 32-5 record.

Rebuild now. Face the music on our terms.

And start recruiting on this renewed success with still another good team--a better possibility (by then)--next year.

[gumby]

Adidas rep said Arizona offered top recruit $150,000, according to another fed complaint

Bruce Pascoe Arizona Daily Star Sep 28, 2017 Updated 3 hrs ago

While local focus largely has been on the federal charges involving Book Richardson, the other prong of the FBI's investigation into college basketball revealed a reference that Arizona may have offered five-star Florida forward Nassir Little $150,000.

http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcat ... a359e.html" target="_blank

That's my main question, is that Book went off on his own. But we already had our method of trying to get recruits to go to Arizona. So now that Book got caught doing his side stuff, and with reports that we were in the running for some of these recruits, that exposes that we were still doing something to try to sway recruits.

Yes. But the inevitable next questions asked by everyone are: How does Arizona's exposed offer to one recruit relate to the range of offers of those Arizona was competing against for that commitment? Were there other offers for other recruits?

The FBI document already mentions three separate offers of $150,000.

I suppose it's possible that everybody closes this inquiry right now and settles on Arizona as the only school that goes down, and the rest of the otherwise clean sport of college basketball marches forward.

Yeah, I'm not seeing how people are not making the connection here. We are banking on more schools getting dragged into this. We are on day three, dominoes are still falling, we have well-informed people here and in the media telling us this is just the tip of the iceberg... And the ultimate goal is the shoe companies, and nearly every D1 program falls under their umbrella.

Parallel this with the Gambino mafia family. The feds end goal is Carlo Gambino (Adidas). They catch one of the muscle guys (AAU coach), Gambino's son in law (Pitino), and a lower-level goon from the Genovese family (Tony Bland) shaking down a business, along with a guy from a rival family who is betraying his crime family by trying to double dip. The feds don't just say, we got four of them guys, we know the Gambinos are involved in some illegal shit, but lets wrap it up. No. They don't stop til they get to Carlo Gambino. During that whole process, they are going to find nearly everyone under Gambino. They are going to know the entire organization, how it works. They are going to know a lot, if not all of the rival and allied families and their members. During that process, not all, but a significant portion will be taken down on charges. That gets out in the news. Voila. We now know that the Gambino's and the Genovese's aren't the only families in town doing this stuff.

To keep the analogy going (based on 97's narrative), Miller would be a made man who sets up a lower-level goon? Or an innocent victim who did that?

[Slappy]

No, it is not. When you lose something you love, you go through the stages. I have seen some of the "best" posters here say they are depressed, can't sleep etc, felt sick. I have seen denial postings.

I felt sick too. This is a game changer. I hope, the issue is so widespread (as another person said it is), that we and all the programs escape and the rules get changed.

The 5 stages of grief thing is totally bogus BTW mr Slappy. It seems most people on the board aren't actually in denial just accepting that this whole thing has a loooooooooooong way to go before we really know anything.

[Olsondogg]

That we don't get severe punishment, and things will go on as normal. At least, that is how I read it.

So am I in denial about your ability to read? Or just to comprehend?

I don't know what's so fucking hard for people to understand what is going on, or is everyone just in a rush for a witty post...that usually really suck at the witty part?

Nobody ever said that Arizona gets out clean...just that the shit isn't done from hitting the fan. So what stage are you in?

[billk78]

There's a pattern of misreading the situation in this thread: this notion that there's a segment of posters who are in denial. Nobody in this thread has shown doubts that Arizona basketball as we know it is doomed. That's not the issue. The issue is whether all of college basketball as we know it is doomed.

Well put. However, the hoped for outcome, i.e., college basketball implodes, won't help many here. And therein lies the denial.

Even if the NCAA goes down which, today, seems plausible, and even if college basketball is rebuilt in a different mold--a good one, updated for the times with better rules and enforcement--Arizona and the 5/6/7 others (lets not quibble, maybe the list will grow) will remain in ruin.

All the while, our rivals will skate (save USC); all of the traditionally great programs--Kansas, Duke UNC, UCLA etc. will move seamlessly to a restructured landscape. They will recruit well now; they will recruit well after the fact; they will applaud the change along the way and they will remain smug seeing a superior position not only maintained......but enhanced! I don't see blood for them.

So, yes, Arizona is "doomed." And yes, the NCAA may be doomed (likely). But Arizona, twisting in the wind, looks an also ran for a long long time. Indeed looming sanctions, whatever they will be, may not be forthcoming for dozens of months. Recruiting impossible. The stain sticking like tar.

Can this unfold another way?

Don't know. Don't really think so.

So I believe the best way forward is the best way out-- a proactive school president and AD can proactively clean house. Now. Clean it up today. In other words, beat the NCAA, every critic and every pundit to the punch. Have a season for pride. Without an overhanging cloud; with a great roster (less 1/2.) Produce a great 32-5 record.

Rebuild now. Face the music on our terms.

And start recruiting on this renewed success with still another good team--a better possibility (by then)--next year.

Sorry this doesn't make much sense to me. Why should the University act now before it knows all the facts? The clean house completely and then it's found out Miller cooperated the whole time and Book acted alone? Then we look even worse and scrapped our whole program. I see no need to jump the gun. I believe they're playing it smart here.

[Spaceman Spiff]

To answer Gumby's question about how it would work.

1. Drop the rule that players cannot be compensated. Substitute that schools cannot compensate them beyond current scholarship limits.
2. Let outside sources work. The market dictates the rest.

More details, please. Are they employees of the college or the outside forces?

How does mixing nonprofit and for-profit ventures navigate labor and tax laws? What if schools DO compensate beyond current scholarships, as they do now, to gain an advantage? NCAA still there to enforce? (Doing such a great job now).

Seems the market would dictate to colleges: cut your non-rev sports to free up money for the bidding or say hello to the bottom of the standings.

Would the charade of attending classes (for many) continue? Or is that veneer needed to keep these events on campuses (rather than club sports)?

The school's relationship with the player is identical. Zero money is going college to player.

Outside sources are paying the player. The comparison is a normal student who gets a job at a pizza place. That does not impact the student's scholarship money or legit $.

The player is related to the school in the same way as now. Right now there is an artificial prohibition on players making money from their status outside that. The only thing my proposal does is eliminate that prohibition. The institution/player relationship unchanged.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Is there any conceivable way this season proceeds as business as usual? I'm having a hard time seeing how all of this gets completed, somewhat resolved, and remedied before the season tips off. Even if the NCAA's own investigation is postponed while the Feds are doing their work, you can already see the dark clouds over the sport that extend from here to the Final Four. Seems any chance for a "normal" season has disappeared.

Will Miller be fired? Will AZ players be ruled ineligible? Is the university trying to protect Miller and mitigate damages to the school and program? Does anyone really believe Miller has done nothing wrong here?

So much hanging in the balance.

This season will not be business as usual for any D1 school.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I was sick when I read these reports. You are clearly stage 1 and 2. I feel like I lost something very close to me. Hopefully I am wrong, and as Odog says, this is so widespread that we somehow get out of this without any problems.

You are right about my Mom, I don't talk to her much anymore.

Seeing the 5 stages of grief play out right now.

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

Best to get to acceptance stage. Arizona BB is in deep shit.

This is false.

First, I'm not in denial, you are. Next, I'm not angry, but you probably are because your mother's A DISEASED SKANK! I'll be the bigger man, though, and if you remove this post, I won't call you put for trolling. It just makes me so sad we have this filth on our fine board. I guess I just have to come to terms that trolls exist.

I wasn't sick. The reports were confirmation of basically what I thought was going on. I was bummed that Arizona was one of the primary schools involved.

[Slappy]

Not going to get in a back and forth insult session with you.

Just posting on what I saw about depression, this shit is real. Wasn't trying to be funny or trolling, sorry if I offended.

Will go back to reading and lurking now.

That we don't get severe punishment, and things will go on as normal. At least, that is how I read it.

So am I in denial about your ability to read? Or just to comprehend?

I don't know what's so fucking hard for people to understand what is going on, or is everyone just in a rush for a witty post...that usually really suck at the witty part?

Nobody ever said that Arizona gets out clean...just that the shit isn't done from hitting the fan. So what stage are you in?

[Chicat]

There's a pattern of misreading the situation in this thread: this notion that there's a segment of posters who are in denial. Nobody in this thread has shown doubts that Arizona basketball as we know it is doomed. That's not the issue. The issue is whether all of college basketball as we know it is doomed.

Well put. However, the hoped for outcome, i.e., college basketball implodes, won't help many here. And therein lies the denial.

Even if the NCAA goes down which, today, seems plausible, and even if college basketball is rebuilt in a different mold--a good one, updated for the times with better rules and enforcement--Arizona and the 5/6/7 others (lets not quibble, maybe the list will grow) will remain in ruin.

All the while, our rivals will skate (save USC); all of the traditionally great programs--Kansas, Duke UNC, UCLA etc. will move seamlessly to a restructured landscape. They will recruit well now; they will recruit well after the fact; they will applaud the change along the way and they will remain smug seeing a superior position not only maintained......but enhanced! I don't see blood for them.

So, yes, Arizona is "doomed." And yes, the NCAA may be doomed (likely). But Arizona, twisting in the wind, looks an also ran for a long long time. Indeed looming sanctions, whatever they will be, may not be forthcoming for dozens of months. Recruiting impossible. The stain sticking like tar.

Can this unfold another way?

Don't know. Don't really think so.

So I believe the best way forward is the best way out-- a proactive school president and AD can proactively clean house. Now. Clean it up today. In other words, beat the NCAA, every critic and every pundit to the punch. Have a season for pride. Without an overhanging cloud; with a great roster (less 1/2.) Produce a great 32-5 record.

Rebuild now. Face the music on our terms.

And start recruiting on this renewed success with still another good team--a better possibility (by then)--next year.

Sorry this doesn't make much sense to me. Why should the University act now before it knows all the facts? The clean house completely and then it's found out Miller cooperated the whole time and Book acted alone? Then we look even worse and scrapped our whole program. I see no need to jump the gun. I believe they're playing it smart here.

Firing Miller and "cleaning house" just gives license to the NCAA to bend over the new administration and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with this. Doesn't make sense to me. The NCAA has repeatedly shown that punishing programs is more in their interest than punishing individual coaches. Firing Miller would do literally nothing to change that.

[CatFanOneMil]

Perhaps it would help (I doubt it most people have already sentenced the guilty) if I clarified my perspective a bit:

1. I do not think the majority of coaches are in on some wide spread pay for recruits scheme, that does not mean to me that corruption has not happened, I simply do not think it is in the University head coaches as a system of how things get done.

2. I DO believe there have been and always will be predators who use money to lure kids to certain schools/advisers/agents these predators feed off the AAU system and cooperate with the shoe companys.

3. I have read the FBI information (along with all the pundits versions of what it means/up to a redundant point) what we have public access to can be read as blatant indictment of the whole college system OR it can read like two drug dealers talking about which stock to invest in, the reliability of the sources caught on tape remains to be established, but for the most part we are reading the transcripts of known lawbreakers and informants.

4. I do think the UA and Miller will get some sanctions by the NCAA, no way around this, Book was an employ on Millers watch and he is caught red handed doing illegal things, things that ALSO violate NCAA rules, the FBI issue and the NCAA rules are separate issues though with no real cross over in terms of penalty, the NCAA does not have rules on tax evasion and money laundering or bribery these are Federal issues.

5. A LOT has been made about the shoe company money and AAU, but there is a lot of this that is NOT illegal...it is not against NCAA rules for a shoe company to give 450k to an AAU coach, these are different jurisdictions, what the NCAA does have in play are rules about how Universities are allowed to interact with college players, these rules are enforced by a committee and this is the area where Miller and his staff are culpable and will/might face sanctions...

6. Just because someone said in a taped conversation that University 4 was offering 150k does not make that true...the tape is true, the conversation happened, no doubt, but the CONTENT of the conversation is subject to laws of evidence, evidence that NO ONE but the FBI currently has...this nuance also applies to Rick Pitino, unless there is evidence that Rick Pitino's voice has been recorded and is on tape saying "We bought that kid for X amount of money" then all any of us have is the report of a source that may or may not be telling the truth...I kind of keep in mind that these are bidding wars between money hungry rogue people and as far as the FBI is concerned the only thing illegal here would be if this money can be traced to federal funds/scholarship displacement/Pell grants/etc. the FBI is not even slightly interested in enforcing NCAA rules, in fact they are incapable of doing that.

7. My position is basically this...I know from the evidence presented that there are some people who have gamed the system to make money, they have used money from shoe company individuals to make a profit off of college athletes, but this does not mean that ALL shoe company's and ALL university head coaches are in some kind of hidden system that has been running the recruit process for years.

8. There is obviously shoe money, hell our uniforms are provided by Nike, but money in and from a billion dollar industry is not in itself illegal, does some get siphoned off to steer recruits one way or another? No doubt, but that in itself does not mean that the entire system is a bidding war by head coaches paying off students and families...there is just no hard evidence that this is the case...have a handful of people said it is? Oh hell yeah, but so far the hard evidence is still in our darkened imaginations...have guys in the history of college sports been adept at steering money and recruits to a few programs? No doubt, there are slick money manipulators in every fucking business out there, heel we all practice a form of this when we hire accountants to do our taxes...but the idea that it is all under the table and systemic and everyone does it is the same as saying everyone hides money in offshore accounts during tax time...

9. I could be completely wrong. Happens all the damn time, it doesn't make me a wrong person, it just means I found out one more way not to do things, I have millions of ways that don't work by now...my current way of doing things is I trust that the good in people outweighs the bad...that is not changing anytime soon.

[SirClinks]

No, it is not. When you lose something you love, you go through the stages. I have seen some of the "best" posters here say they are depressed, can't sleep etc, felt sick. I have seen denial postings.

I felt sick too. This is a game changer. I hope, the issue is so widespread (as another person said it is), that we and all the programs escape and the rules get changed.

The 5 stages of grief thing is totally bogus BTW mr Slappy. It seems most people on the board aren't actually in denial just accepting that this whole thing has a loooooooooooong way to go before we really know anything.

Kubler-Ross has been debunked. No big deal dude I was just pointing out its debunked science in the Psych world.

[ChooChooCat]

Jesus Hank you have one mode and and one mode only and that's full blown irrational overreacting panic. At least you're consistent though.

[prh]

Jesus Hank you have one mode and and one mode only and that's full blown irrational overreacting panic. At least you're consistent though.

It seems that the entire "discussion" has drastically veered that direction today

[Olsondogg]

Do people think Olson ran a "clean" program? Just wondering...

[Hank of sb]

Chicat:

Firing Miller and "cleaning house" just gives license to the NCAA to bend over the new administration and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with this. Doesn't make sense to me. The NCAA has repeatedly shown that punishing programs is more in their interest than punishing individual coaches. Firing Miller would do literally nothing to change that.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

I forgot to add the self-sanctioning; I thought that to be understood.

[Olsondogg]

Chicat:

Firing Miller and "cleaning house" just gives license to the NCAA to bend over the new administration and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with this. Doesn't make sense to me. The NCAA has repeatedly shown that punishing programs is more in their interest than punishing individual coaches. Firing Miller would do literally nothing to change that.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

I forgot to add the self-sanctioning; I thought that to be understood.

Arizona is doing an independent investigation...

[Chicat]

Chicat:

Firing Miller and "cleaning house" just gives license to the NCAA to bend over the new administration and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with this. Doesn't make sense to me. The NCAA has repeatedly shown that punishing programs is more in their interest than punishing individual coaches. Firing Miller would do literally nothing to change that.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

I forgot to add the self-sanctioning; I thought that to be understood.

Self-sanctioning won't stop further NCAA sanctions. And again, you're punishing people who are guilty of no crime. It would be like if your boss got caught embezzling from the company so they fire him, promote you, and then cut your pay and everyone else's in the department in half for the next five years.

[uacat540]

Everyone seems to think the FBI is done and this are the only schools that are involved. Alabama has already fired a staffer, and more schools are coming. I think the NCAA is going to be hard pressed to punish the initial schools and not the 30-50 other schools that will be implicated. The FBI is now onto Nike and Under Armor is next. I tend to believe that this shit is so wide spread that the NCAA has no option but to give everyone a pass and reform. Duke, KU, UNC, Kentucky, Ucla, Ohio State, etc are all going to get caught up on this. No rational person can sit here and notice that Dukes recruit took off recently, especially with one and dones and one Mr. Jeff Capel. This is not a micro issue in College Sports, its a Macro level issue in D1 sports today. People are going to start talking, very quickly and I imagine that this is two years away from being solved by the NCAA. Look at UNC's issues...it still isnt resolved. If anything, be happy Arizona was first, because the true blue bloods are really going to get it now.

[Hank of sb]

Chicat:

Firing Miller and "cleaning house" just gives license to the NCAA to bend over the new administration and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with this. Doesn't make sense to me. The NCAA has repeatedly shown that punishing programs is more in their interest than punishing individual coaches. Firing Miller would do literally nothing to change that.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

I forgot to add the self-sanctioning; I thought that to be understood.

Arizona is doing an independent investigation...

Right, and then they should act as necessary, i.e., proceed to rid the tarnish in an expedient way.

[Spaceman Spiff]

No, it is not. When you lose something you love, you go through the stages. I have seen some of the "best" posters here say they are depressed, can't sleep etc, felt sick. I have seen denial postings.

I felt sick too. This is a game changer. I hope, the issue is so widespread (as another person said it is), that we and all the programs escape and the rules get changed.

The 5 stages of grief thing is totally bogus BTW mr Slappy. It seems most people on the board aren't actually in denial just accepting that this whole thing has a loooooooooooong way to go before we really know anything.

Kubler-Ross has been debunked. No big deal dude I was just pointing out its debunked science in the Psych world.

I think you're in denial about how valid Kubler-Ross really is.

[Beachcat97]

Chi making a lot of sense in his last few posts.

[Hank of sb]

Chicat:

Firing Miller and "cleaning house" just gives license to the NCAA to bend over the new administration and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with this. Doesn't make sense to me. The NCAA has repeatedly shown that punishing programs is more in their interest than punishing individual coaches. Firing Miller would do literally nothing to change that.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

I forgot to add the self-sanctioning; I thought that to be understood.

Self-sanctioning won't stop further NCAA sanctions. And again, you're punishing people who are guilty of no crime. It would be like if your boss got caught embezzling from the company so they fire him, promote you, and then cut your pay and everyone else's in the department in half for the next five years.

There are no guarantees but it sure helps. There's a forceful opinion out there that Arizona won't see the post-season this year, regardless. Might as well capitalize on that fact and get credit for sanctioning the team ourselves.

[Olsondogg]

Chicat:

Firing Miller and "cleaning house" just gives license to the NCAA to bend over the new administration and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with this. Doesn't make sense to me. The NCAA has repeatedly shown that punishing programs is more in their interest than punishing individual coaches. Firing Miller would do literally nothing to change that.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

I forgot to add the self-sanctioning; I thought that to be understood.

Self-sanctioning won't stop further NCAA sanctions. And again, you're punishing people who are guilty of no crime. It would be like if your boss got caught embezzling from the company so they fire him, promote you, and then cut your pay and everyone else's in the department in half for the next five years.

People have yet to realize that the governing body of collegiate sports has been told to back off all this for now...

[prh]

Chicat:

Firing Miller and "cleaning house" just gives license to the NCAA to bend over the new administration and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with this. Doesn't make sense to me. The NCAA has repeatedly shown that punishing programs is more in their interest than punishing individual coaches. Firing Miller would do literally nothing to change that.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

I forgot to add the self-sanctioning; I thought that to be understood.

Self-sanctioning won't stop further NCAA sanctions. And again, you're punishing people who are guilty of no crime. It would be like if your boss got caught embezzling from the company so they fire him, promote you, and then cut your pay and everyone else's in the department in half for the next five years.

There are no guarantees but it sure helps. There's a forceful opinion out there that Arizona won't see the post-season this year, regardless. Might as well capitalize on that fact and get credit for sanctioning the team ourselves.

I wouldn't go so far to say there's a forceful opinion, except for general fans who think that's what should happen

[Chicat]

Chicat:

Firing Miller and "cleaning house" just gives license to the NCAA to bend over the new administration and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with this. Doesn't make sense to me. The NCAA has repeatedly shown that punishing programs is more in their interest than punishing individual coaches. Firing Miller would do literally nothing to change that.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

I forgot to add the self-sanctioning; I thought that to be understood.

Arizona is doing an independent investigation...

Right, and then they should act as necessary, i.e., proceed to rid the tarnish in an expedient way.

I don't think there is any getting rid of this tarnish.

If Miller stays --> "Rogue Assistant"
Fire Miller --> "#APayersProgram"

[YoDeFoe]

There's a forceful opinion out there that Arizona won't see the post-season this year

Many people are saying. Believe me.

[rgdeuce]

Adidas rep said Arizona offered top recruit $150,000, according to another fed complaint

Bruce Pascoe Arizona Daily Star Sep 28, 2017 Updated 3 hrs ago

While local focus largely has been on the federal charges involving Book Richardson, the other prong of the FBI's investigation into college basketball revealed a reference that Arizona may have offered five-star Florida forward Nassir Little $150,000.

http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcat ... a359e.html" target="_blank

That's my main question, is that Book went off on his own. But we already had our method of trying to get recruits to go to Arizona. So now that Book got caught doing his side stuff, and with reports that we were in the running for some of these recruits, that exposes that we were still doing something to try to sway recruits.

Yes. But the inevitable next questions asked by everyone are: How does Arizona's exposed offer to one recruit relate to the range of offers of those Arizona was competing against for that commitment? Were there other offers for other recruits?

The FBI document already mentions three separate offers of $150,000.

I suppose it's possible that everybody closes this inquiry right now and settles on Arizona as the only school that goes down, and the rest of the otherwise clean sport of college basketball marches forward.

Yeah, I'm not seeing how people are not making the connection here. We are banking on more schools getting dragged into this. We are on day three, dominoes are still falling, we have well-informed people here and in the media telling us this is just the tip of the iceberg... And the ultimate goal is the shoe companies, and nearly every D1 program falls under their umbrella.

Parallel this with the Gambino mafia family. The feds end goal is Carlo Gambino (Adidas). They catch one of the muscle guys (AAU coach), Gambino's son in law (Pitino), and a lower-level goon from the Genovese family (Tony Bland) shaking down a business, along with a guy from a rival family who is betraying his crime family by trying to double dip. The feds don't just say, we got four of them guys, we know the Gambinos are involved in some illegal shit, but lets wrap it up. No. They don't stop til they get to Carlo Gambino. During that whole process, they are going to find nearly everyone under Gambino. They are going to know the entire organization, how it works. They are going to know a lot, if not all of the rival and allied families and their members. During that process, not all, but a significant portion will be taken down on charges. That gets out in the news. Voila. We now know that the Gambino's and the Genovese's aren't the only families in town doing this stuff.

To keep the analogy going (based on 97's narrative), Miller would be a made man who sets up a lower-level goon? Or an innocent victim who did that?

That was real rough with minimal thought, because I wanted to get back to reading what I missed. You pick

[Spaceman Spiff]

Everyone seems to think the FBI is done and this are the only schools that are involved. Alabama has already fired a staffer, and more schools are coming. I think the NCAA is going to be hard pressed to punish the initial schools and not the 30-50 other schools that will be implicated. The FBI is now onto Nike and Under Armor is next. I tend to believe that this shit is so wide spread that the NCAA has no option but to give everyone a pass and reform. Duke, KU, UNC, Kentucky, Ucla, Ohio State, etc are all going to get caught up on this. No rational person can sit here and notice that Dukes recruit took off recently, especially with one and dones and one Mr. Jeff Capel. This is not a micro issue in College Sports, its a Macro level issue in D1 sports today. People are going to start talking, very quickly and I imagine that this is two years away from being solved by the NCAA. Look at UNC's issues...it still isnt resolved. If anything, be happy Arizona was first, because the true blue bloods are really going to get it now.

Here's a list of open issues that come up off the top of my head:

--Porter Jr. and his dad's hiring at Missouri. Before that, Ben Simmons and his handler's hiring at LSU.
--UCLA and Compton Magic in light of Adidas's involvement in the first FBI round.
--Recently, midlevel Adidas schools who have pulled major recruits (NCSU/Dennis Smith Jr., Miss St./Malik Newman).
--Adidas powers who consistently pull top classes like Kansas, UCLA, Indiana, etc., given the FBI ststement about going rates for top 20 guys.
--Any mid-major school that has pulled a McD's guy. This year UNLV and WKU leap to mind.
--Everyone who has pulled from EYBL program given the Nike warrant yesterday. This includes Duke, UNC, Arizona, Kentucky...pretty much all the big lights.

That's where we are in terms of who is sweating.

[Frybry02]

I am curious if FBI is also interested in nailing the NCAA. At this point, the NCAA has to be just as shocked as Pitino.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Adidas rep said Arizona offered top recruit $150,000, according to another fed complaint

Bruce Pascoe Arizona Daily Star Sep 28, 2017 Updated 3 hrs ago

While local focus largely has been on the federal charges involving Book Richardson, the other prong of the FBI's investigation into college basketball revealed a reference that Arizona may have offered five-star Florida forward Nassir Little $150,000.

http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcat ... a359e.html" target="_blank

That's my main question, is that Book went off on his own. But we already had our method of trying to get recruits to go to Arizona. So now that Book got caught doing his side stuff, and with reports that we were in the running for some of these recruits, that exposes that we were still doing something to try to sway recruits.

Yes. But the inevitable next questions asked by everyone are: How does Arizona's exposed offer to one recruit relate to the range of offers of those Arizona was competing against for that commitment? Were there other offers for other recruits?

The FBI document already mentions three separate offers of $150,000.

I suppose it's possible that everybody closes this inquiry right now and settles on Arizona as the only school that goes down, and the rest of the otherwise clean sport of college basketball marches forward.

Yeah, I'm not seeing how people are not making the connection here. We are banking on more schools getting dragged into this. We are on day three, dominoes are still falling, we have well-informed people here and in the media telling us this is just the tip of the iceberg... And the ultimate goal is the shoe companies, and nearly every D1 program falls under their umbrella.

Parallel this with the Gambino mafia family. The feds end goal is Carlo Gambino (Adidas). They catch one of the muscle guys (AAU coach), Gambino's son in law (Pitino), and a lower-level goon from the Genovese family (Tony Bland) shaking down a business, along with a guy from a rival family who is betraying his crime family by trying to double dip. The feds don't just say, we got four of them guys, we know the Gambinos are involved in some illegal shit, but lets wrap it up. No. They don't stop til they get to Carlo Gambino. During that whole process, they are going to find nearly everyone under Gambino. They are going to know the entire organization, how it works. They are going to know a lot, if not all of the rival and allied families and their members. During that process, not all, but a significant portion will be taken down on charges. That gets out in the news. Voila. We now know that the Gambino's and the Genovese's aren't the only families in town doing this stuff.

To keep the analogy going (based on 97's narrative), Miller would be a made man who sets up a lower-level goon? Or an innocent victim who did that?

Miller is the mayoral candidate who is recruiting supporters. Book is a campaign fundraiser who got into working with the Adidas family.

[Olsondogg]

I am curious if FBI is also interested in nailing the NCAA. At this point, the NCAA has to be just as shocked as Pitino.

I don't know if they were shocked at the results of the probe, maybe that the FBI got involved. But nobody wanted this to come to light, especially the NCAA or all of the companies that profit off this.

[Olsondogg]

Everyone seems to think the FBI is done and this are the only schools that are involved. Alabama has already fired a staffer, and more schools are coming. I think the NCAA is going to be hard pressed to punish the initial schools and not the 30-50 other schools that will be implicated. The FBI is now onto Nike and Under Armor is next. I tend to believe that this shit is so wide spread that the NCAA has no option but to give everyone a pass and reform. Duke, KU, UNC, Kentucky, Ucla, Ohio State, etc are all going to get caught up on this. No rational person can sit here and notice that Dukes recruit took off recently, especially with one and dones and one Mr. Jeff Capel. This is not a micro issue in College Sports, its a Macro level issue in D1 sports today. People are going to start talking, very quickly and I imagine that this is two years away from being solved by the NCAA. Look at UNC's issues...it still isnt resolved. If anything, be happy Arizona was first, because the true blue bloods are really going to get it now.

Here's a list of open issues that come up off the top of my head:

--Porter Jr. and his dad's hiring at Missouri. Before that, Ben Simmons and his handler's hiring at LSU.
--UCLA and Compton Magic in light of Adidas's involvement in the first FBI round.
--Recently, midlevel Adidas schools who have pulled major recruits (NCSU/Dennis Smith Jr., Miss St./Malik Newman).
--Adidas powers who consistently pull top classes like Kansas, UCLA, Indiana, etc., given the FBI ststement about going rates for top 20 guys.
--Any mid-major school that has pulled a McD's guy. This year UNLV and WKU leap to mind.
--Everyone who has pulled from EYBL program given the Nike warrant yesterday. This includes Duke, UNC, Arizona, Kentucky...pretty much all the big lights.

That's where we are in terms of who is sweating.

And anyone else on Andy Miller's computer.

[rgdeuce]

Do people think Olson ran a "clean" program? Just wondering...

I figured Olson and Miller both fell into the category of coaches who were generally good guys and had a few tricks up their sleeve to bend the rules slightly when needed, as necessary to remain competitive. Certainly did not lump either with a Calipari, Tarkanian, or Pitino. Knowing what I know now, to this point at least, I guess you could still consider Miller and Olson's programs as clean in comparison to some of the other shit going on in other programs (eg: (to my knowledge) we aren't bringing in hookers (adult and minor) to service underage recruits and their daddy's. It seems like there are a lot of ethical coaches playing an unethical game, it's something that just comes with the territory and you have to just turn a blind eye if you want a job, and then you have a smaller number of coaches who are complete slimeballs and take advantage of it being an unethical game.

[Olsondogg]

Do people think Olson ran a "clean" program? Just wondering...

I figured Olson and Miller both fell into the category of coaches who were generally good guys and had a few tricks up their sleeve to bend the rules slightly when needed, as necessary to remain competitive. Certainly did not lump either with a Calipari, Tarkanian, or Pitino. Knowing what I know now, to this point at least, I guess you could still consider Miller and Olson's programs as clean in comparison to some of the other shit going on in other programs (eg: (to my knowledge) we aren't bringing in hookers (adult and minor) to service underage recruits and their daddy's. It seems like there are a lot of ethical coaches playing an unethical game, it's something that just comes with the territory and you have to just turn a blind eye if you want a job, and then you have a smaller number of coaches who are complete slimeballs and take advantage of it being an unethical game.

Yup.

The goal was to play clean in dirty laundry.

[rgdeuce]

Everyone seems to think the FBI is done and this are the only schools that are involved. Alabama has already fired a staffer, and more schools are coming. I think the NCAA is going to be hard pressed to punish the initial schools and not the 30-50 other schools that will be implicated. The FBI is now onto Nike and Under Armor is next. I tend to believe that this shit is so wide spread that the NCAA has no option but to give everyone a pass and reform. Duke, KU, UNC, Kentucky, Ucla, Ohio State, etc are all going to get caught up on this. No rational person can sit here and notice that Dukes recruit took off recently, especially with one and dones and one Mr. Jeff Capel. This is not a micro issue in College Sports, its a Macro level issue in D1 sports today. People are going to start talking, very quickly and I imagine that this is two years away from being solved by the NCAA. Look at UNC's issues...it still isnt resolved. If anything, be happy Arizona was first, because the true blue bloods are really going to get it now.

Here's a list of open issues that come up off the top of my head:

--Porter Jr. and his dad's hiring at Missouri. Before that, Ben Simmons and his handler's hiring at LSU.
--UCLA and Compton Magic in light of Adidas's involvement in the first FBI round.
--Recently, midlevel Adidas schools who have pulled major recruits (NCSU/Dennis Smith Jr., Miss St./Malik Newman).
--Adidas powers who consistently pull top classes like Kansas, UCLA, Indiana, etc., given the FBI ststement about going rates for top 20 guys.
--Any mid-major school that has pulled a McD's guy. This year UNLV and WKU leap to mind.
--Everyone who has pulled from EYBL program given the Nike warrant yesterday. This includes Duke, UNC, Arizona, Kentucky...pretty much all the big lights.

That's where we are in terms of who is sweating.

And anyone else on Andy Miller's computer.

And remember, this stuff apparently has been going on for decades and it seems like the systems in place were very intricate. It seems like the only guys who get caught are those who are extremely reckless and stray from what works, outside of a few unlucky outliers maybe. While the masses may not stray from what works, they aren't particularly being careful while in the fool proof systems. Meaning, these dudes are in each other's phonebooks, there are texts and calls, facebook messages and posts, etc that are permanent records for the FBI, who have a million times the resources and manpower that the NCAA has. Safe to say, when most of these guys felt they had to lay low, it was only for the virtually unarmed NCAA or some people who may tip the NCAA off, which isnt even a fraction of the laying low one has to do when the feds are near. Every laptop, cellphone, etc they seize is going to be a goldmine, and the stuff they seize from the shoe companies is going to be Fort Knox - this isn't a case where these guys had to be so careful they could only meet in person, in inconspicuous places, after they took evasive action to shake any sort of law enforcement surveillance tail, just to talk business. All of college basketball, coaches at all levels below, their friends, their families, guys in their neighborhoods, all sweating. Like I said pages back, if any of the aforementioned have people who sell them weed, those weed dealers are sweating. This investigation is going to produce information/evidence that is completely unrelated to shoes, shoe companies, basketball, coaches, players and their parents, and it is going to be seen by the FBI and from there, possibly sent over to their buddies at ATF, DEA, etc.

[NYCat]

On a semi-serious note, the NCAA has to suspend the fall signing period, right?

Anyone major prospect who signs in the fall is an idiot

[pc in NM]

I am curious if FBI is also interested in nailing the NCAA. At this point, the NCAA has to be just as shocked as Pitino.

"nailing the NCAA" for what? What Federal crime might the NCAA have committed?

I believe the NCAA is at risk because amateur basketball is at risk.

As long as the one-and-done exists, Shoe Companies will be looking for early access to the next possible pro superstar to be on their team - the money involved per true blue-chip athlete is a small investment that could reap huge future rewards....

If it comes to making this level of the sport just another level of professional sports, then there is honestly no place for universities, especially state-run universities, being in the "business" - then the NCAA is "nailed", because it is obsolete....

[Dosia]

If you aint cheatin, you aint tryin!

[enfuego]

Perhaps it would help (I doubt it most people have already sentenced the guilty) if I clarified my perspective a bit:


6. Just because someone said in a taped conversation that University 4 was offering 150k does not make that true...the tape is true, the conversation happened, no doubt, but the CONTENT of the conversation is subject to laws of evidence, evidence that NO ONE but the FBI currently has...this nuance also applies to Rick Pitino, unless there is evidence that Rick Pitino's voice has been recorded and is on tape saying "We bought that kid for X amount of money" then all any of us have is the report of a source that may or may not be telling the truth...I kind of keep in mind that these are bidding wars between money hungry rogue people and as far as the FBI is concerned the only thing illegal here would be if this money can be traced to federal funds/scholarship displacement/Pell grants/etc. the FBI is not even slightly interested in enforcing NCAA rules, in fact they are incapable of doing that.

I think this is not wholly accurate. Even if he didn't commit to paying, there is still "conspiracy to commit".

[CalStateTempe]

Ok it's 2pm est, I hope today's bloodletting isn't going to go the way of Y2K...

[HiCat]

I have been reading the posts in this forum for years. Love the insight and intelligent debate (most of the time). I have never felt compelled to participate, until today.

I have been both depressed and fascinated by this scandal. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that ASU hired an Adidas guy as an assistant basketball coach recently. This jogged some memories and after just a couple of minutes, I found the following information about ASU, Adidas, and top 2020 recruit, Kyree Walker. These are just dots. I don't know if they connect or not. But given what's been shared on this board regarding the nature of recruiting and the influence shoe companies have in the recruiting process, this seems to fit the script.

July 2015 – ASU officially switches from Nike to Adidas

May 2016 – ASU basketball hires Adidas marketing rep, Anthony Coleman, as an assistant coach. From HouseOfSparky.com, "Coleman will play a critical role in recruiting as his Adidas ties will allow ASU to tap into that portion of the AAU circuit."

April 2017 – Adidas and ASU create international sports center, creating a new faculty position in the process. From BizJournal.com, "Kenneth L. Shropshire, director of the Wharton Sports Business Initiative at the University of Pennsylvania, will become the first Adidas Distinguished Professor of Global Sport at ASU, a brand-new position at the university. Adidas contributed to the position at an undisclosed cost."

June 30, 2017 – Kyree Walker commits to ASU … Announced that Kyree will be attending Hillcrest Prep and his father will be coaching there.

July 2017 – Kyree Walker leaves Nike-sponsored Oakland Soldiers for Adidas-sponsored Dream Vision

Sep. 2017 – Hillcrest Prep announces a partnership with Adidas

Just thought I would share because I was stunned at how easy I found this after I knew what to look for based on the info that's been shared on this site.

Good shit dude. Welcome to the board.

Ditto. Keep them coming.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I am curious if FBI is also interested in nailing the NCAA. At this point, the NCAA has to be just as shocked as Pitino.

I don't know if they were shocked at the results of the probe, maybe that the FBI got involved. But nobody wanted this to come to light, especially the NCAA or all of the companies that profit off this.

This. This one one reason why I can't believe the NCAA wants to be too aggressive. They don't want to be banning Kentucky, UNC, Duke, Arizona, Kansas, UCLA, Louisville and the rest from the postseason.

You wind up with a 32 team tournament where your #1 seed Oakland University takes on IUPUI's JV squad in the first round. No corporate partner is giving you money for that ****.