2019-"Bring It On!"

Irish27 · Post by **Irish27** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:26 pm

Driving home today and listening to 1290AM, 90% of the callers were saying Sean Miller needs to go. It was all doom and gloom. Where were all these so-called fans a few years ago when the Cats were playing in those Elite Eight games? I for one am looking forward to the 2018-2019 season. There is returning talent and I am sure SM will be able to bring in some talented high school players, plus some transfers. I am someone who sees the glass as half full, and I believe next year's team will keep the winning tradition going. The defense will return and McKale will be rocking.

Next year's motto should be "Bring It On!" For the people at ESPN, Greg Hansen and the rest of the Arizona haters, I say,

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:51 pm

Hell yea. I am with you Irish. Two weeks who it was 90% + for Miller and now our Fans turn? That is BS. The journey back will be sweet.

If he signs Williams, Doutrive and that 5 star big man and gets a couple of grad transfers then watch out

zonagrad · Post by **zonagrad** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:59 pm

Fans calling for Miller's ouster should be careful what they wish for. Especially when they have absolutely no clue if Miller did anything wrong.

IrishAzCat · Post by **IrishAzCat** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:32 pm

PennZona20 · Post by **PennZona20** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:51 am

To me it all comes down to his ability to attract talent w this all hanging over the programs head.

The feds won’t be releasing those tapes anytime soon. This is going to drag into next season.

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:30 am

zonagrad wrote:Fans calling for Miller's ouster should be careful what they wish for. Especially when they have absolutely no clue if Miller did anything wrong.

I am one of those fans who at this point believes Miller and the U of A should part ways given everything going on.

Dismissing the entire FBI situation, I personally believe we have seen Miller's ceiling as a coach. That Buffalo loss coupled with the Xavier loss coupled with the Wichita State loss in successive years in the tourney were all really bad. I do not think Miller's system works in the tourney and he needs to change and adapt in order to progress as a coach. I also have very serious doubts he will be able to do so given the "Do what we do" mantra he lives by. I think there are better coaches out there we could get like an Eric Musselman.

Now when you include the FBI situation and how long that is going to take to drag out, I think we will get more punished if we role with the "We did not do anything wrong angle". Our program did. Book was arrested. Per NCAA rules, that falls on Miller. Miller also knew Book was shady but was too loyal to fire him. The entire town of Tucson knew Book was shady. Everyone here knew Book was selling info to ACE from PointguardU. I personally did not think Miller himself did anything in this situation. But our program is not walking away from this scott free. Zero chance NCAA lets that happen. We are the perfect program to fuck. We are not Duke but we are a known brand. But that could take a year or two to play out so until then our recruiting will suffer big time.

I see no way this ends well if Miller stays personally. Could be dead wrong and will be happy to eat Crow if I am.

Dosia · Post by **Dosia** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:48 am

We will probably just lose scholarships. Do we really think more will happen? Book just took 20 grand and potentially paid JQ right? With that Yahoo report of all those schools having paid players I don't see the NCAA making 20+ schools ineligible for the post season.

zonagrad · Post by **zonagrad** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:33 am

Newportcat wrote:
zonagrad wrote:Fans calling for Miller's ouster should be careful what they wish for. Especially when they have absolutely no clue if Miller did anything wrong.
I am one of those fans who at this point believes Miller and the U of A should part ways given everything going on.

Dismissing the entire FBI situation, I personally believe we have seen Miller's ceiling as a coach. That Buffalo loss coupled with the Xavier loss coupled with the Wichita State loss in successive years in the tourney were all really bad. I do not think Miller's system works in the tourney and he needs to change and adapt in order to progress as a coach. I also have very serious doubts he will be able to do so given the "Do what we do" mantra he lives by. I think there are better coaches out there we could get like an Eric Musselman.

Now when you include the FBI situation and how long that is going to take to drag out, I think we will get more punished if we role with the "We did not do anything wrong angle". Our program did. Book was arrested. Per NCAA rules, that falls on Miller. Miller also knew Book was shady but was too loyal to fire him. The entire town of Tucson knew Book was shady. Everyone here knew Book was selling info to ACE from PointguardU. I personally did not think Miller himself did anything in this situation. But our program is not walking away from this scott free. Zero chance NCAA lets that happen. We are the perfect program to fuck. We are not Duke but we are a known brand. But that could take a year or two to play out so until then our recruiting will suffer big time.

I see no way this ends well if Miller stays personally. Could be dead wrong and will be happy to eat Crow if I am.

I have no idea about the FBI investigation so I'm trusting our administration to make the best call.

But the argument about Miller's ceiling is reminiscent of the knock on Lute in the early 90s. That is, he was a great regular season coach and he peaked in '88. The first round disasters in '92 & '93 added a ton of fuel to that argument. Over the next 8 years, Lute went to 3 more final fours and damn near won two titles.

Jim Boeheim reached the title game in '87 and then hit a huge dry spell. He broke through in '03 with an unexpected title. Now he's considered a coach who only wins in March.

This ceiling argument is nonsense. Mark Few had the same knock against him. Sean Miller, if anything, is a better coach than at any time in his career. He's been Uber successful at Arizona. The conference titles tell the story. He needs to clean up recruiting and get better guard play. If he stays, we'll be back in the final four conversation very soon.

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:24 am

zonagrad wrote:
Newportcat wrote:
zonagrad wrote:Fans calling for Miller's ouster should be careful what they wish for. Especially when they have absolutely no clue if Miller did anything wrong.
I am one of those fans who at this point believes Miller and the U of A should part ways given everything going on.

Dismissing the entire FBI situation, I personally believe we have seen Miller's ceiling as a coach. That Buffalo loss coupled with the Xavier loss coupled with the Wichita State loss in successive years in the tourney were all really bad. I do not think Miller's system works in the tourney and he needs to change and adapt in order to progress as a coach. I also have very serious doubts he will be able to do so given the "Do what we do" mantra he lives by. I think there are better coaches out there we could get like an Eric Musselman.

Now when you include the FBI situation and how long that is going to take to drag out, I think we will get more punished if we role with the "We did not do anything wrong angle". Our program did. Book was arrested. Per NCAA rules, that falls on Miller. Miller also knew Book was shady but was too loyal to fire him. The entire town of Tucson knew Book was shady. Everyone here knew Book was selling info to ACE from PointguardU. I personally did not think Miller himself did anything in this situation. But our program is not walking away from this scott free. Zero chance NCAA lets that happen. We are the perfect program to fuck. We are not Duke but we are a known brand. But that could take a year or two to play out so until then our recruiting will suffer big time.

I see no way this ends well if Miller stays personally. Could be dead wrong and will be happy to eat Crow if I am.
I have no idea about the FBI investigation so I'm trusting our administration to make the best call.

But the argument about Miller's ceiling is reminiscent of the knock on Lute in the early 90s. That is, he was a great regular season coach and he peaked in '88. The first round disasters in '92 & '93 added a ton of fuel to that argument. Over the next 8 years, Lute went to 3 more final fours and damn near won two titles.

Jim Boeheim reached the title game in '87 and then hit a huge dry spell. He broke through in '03 with an unexpected title. Now he's considered a coach who only wins in March.

This ceiling argument is nonsense. Mark Few had the same knock against him. Sean Miller, if anything, is a better coach than at any time in his career. He's been Uber successful at Arizona. The conference titles tell the story. He needs to clean up recruiting and get better guard play. If he stays, we'll be back in the final four conversation very soon.

I am going to do my best not to come across as a Dick but I am really sick of people comparing Lute to Sean Miller. I think it is a really poor comparsion for a mulitude of reasons.

Lute took over Long Beach State and lead them to their greatest season in the history of the school. He is still revered in the Long Beach area as he had great success at Long Beach City College that has not really be duplicated since.

Lute then went to Iowa and led them to great success including a Final Four. He was 2 time Big Ten coach of the year and the program has never even come close to replicating the success he had since he left in 1983. They have not been back to a Final Four and have not won a Big Ten Championship since he left. Their last elite 8 appearence was 1987 and Sweet 16 was 1999. Lute was honored by Iowa a couple years back and fans are still upset he left for Arizona in 1983. When a program that is successful basically dies after you leave, shows you are a great coach.

Lute then took over a nothing program, Arizona. Literally a program with zero national recognition. Within 5 years he took us to a Final Four. He is a saint because he created a Miracle. It still blows my mind what he did. He also did have those two tourney losses in 1992 and 1993 but then came back in 1994 and made his third final four. He revamped his players to go away from big men to more guard oriented play and then 3 years after that we win the Tournament.

Sean Miller was the head coach at Xavier taking over a program that has historically performed well. He had success there for sure but that same success has been equaled by his predescor coach Chris Mack. Mack has had the same success Sean Miller has had, maybe even a bit more. People at Xavier have long since forgetton about Miller and are fine with their current head coach. Miller created no miracles at Xavier and the program has been fine.

Then Miller took over a program that yes was not in a good spot but had a great history, tradition, legacy, and tremendous fan and donor support. We sell out every game, travel well, and have given him every facility possible to ensure we have the best in the country. Our locker room is better then 80% of NBA locker rooms. I toured it and its nuts.

Miller in 9 years has not taken us to a final four and more specifically the past three years has won a total of 2 tournament games and lost three games to double digit seeds while tarnishing our programs reputation (I dont think he is guilty but Book sure is and that falls on Miller because Miller is the CEO of our program)

Anyone who said Lute had a ceiling in the early 90's was a fucking idiot. But Lute also changed and was willing to change his entire system. But at the time his system has taken two non-traditional powers to the Final Four so its amazing he was willing to change and adapt.

Boeheim only wins in March because he runs a funky defense that makes his teams unwatchable. I would hate to have that at Arizona. The 2-3 Zone is fucking awful for the game.

Mark Few is ten times the coach Miller is. For Few to get Gonzaga to the championship game is also a miracle. For Gonzaga to be as good as they are is a miracle as they are located in the middle of fucking nowhere in a nothing conference. I would take Few over Miller in 2 seconds flat.

Conference titles do not tell the story in a very weak PAC 12. PAC 12 has basically been garbage since he has been here. I believe one team (Oregon) has made a Final four from the PAC 12 since he has been here since 2009? One team. UCLA has been pretty weak the entire time. It is not like the PAC 12 of the 80's through 2000's when we had Elite teams consistently. Winning the PAC 12 is nothing special right now and has not been for a while.

Unless Miller changes, he has hit his ceiling. I am shocked anyone would disagree with that. Past three years should show that. And I have very serious doubts Miller will change and surprised anyone would disagree with that. "do what we do".

Again, I could be wrong and Arizona is on the cusp of making a final four after Miller completely changes his system....however that seems like a terrible bet to make

It feels like its 2006 and people are saying we should buy more homes when the reality is we need to sell and move on.

Again, just my opinions but do feel strongly that the Lute comparsion to Miller is really poor in any shape or form.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:38 am

^ Great post Newport.

Just wanted to add, when Lute took over Long Beach State, it was on 3 years probation due to recruiting violations made by Lute's predecessor, Jerry Tarkanian. Lot of bad blood over the years between those two, although they did reconcile before Tark's death.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:44 am

PennZona20 wrote:To me it all comes down to his ability to attract talent w this all hanging over the programs head.

The feds won’t be releasing those tapes anytime soon. This is going to drag into next season.

It's going to do so for any coach. Recruits don't avoid us because they are afraid of Sean Miller getting in trouble...they are afraid of the program getting in trouble. That isn't going to change with a new, lesser coach.

The NCAA has never shown mercy for self-reporting/self-penalizing. Either Miller is telling the truth (sure seems like the feds are trying to get that message across) and he is the best coach available for the job, or we start over. But starting over right now isn't starting over...it's finding a new coach willing to walk into potential sanctions. The only coaches who will be willing to do that are lesser coaches.

Miller took a program with 3 players scoring over a point a game, one of which was a total bust at that point (Horne) and one who would exceed every expectation but was certainly an unknown quantity (Fogg) along with an undersized but crafty point/combo (Wise), a 2 year gap on recruiting, 2 consecutive interim coaches of declining ability (yes, Dunlap...but he didn't lead the program), and rebuilt things with recruiting and a commitment to defense.

the link the last 3 years has been our defensive ability in the backcourt. We know of some shady threats that kept us from upgrading the point when it would have been best to do so, and I don't know what Trier's aversion to increasing draft stock with playing some defense was, but we tried our best to overlook it as fans. Dus became a fantastic offensive player, but was an easy defender to pick off. Who knows how much our bench may have developed in a less chaotic atmosphere. But I do know that prior to this particular team (the threads ran rather clearly through all three years) was not like anything Miller has produced before, he of the "no loss to a lower seed ever other than a 1/2 game with a starter out for the season" tournament career prior to 2016.

Nastiness is required. We lost that recently. I am going to guess Miller is done with watching a lack of effort on D, regardless of who it is on the floor. This year is a confirmation of his core ethic. This bullshit about "packline doesn't work/allows 3s" is just that...it worked fine with the right personnel. It worked fine stopping 3s. It worked fine in Virginia stopping 3s. It worked fine in Virginia in the ACC to go from unranked to #1. They didn't lose that game because of the packline D.

So, we have a handful of top 50 to 80 players returning, wide open time for senior transfers, and let's go.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:45 am

I 100% disagree on the idea of a ceiling on Miller. If Jamelle Horne's three is 4 inches in a different direction, we are not having this conversation because Miller has a Final Four. There's nothing about Miller's coaching that changed the trajectory of Horne's shot.

Ceiling is an artificial concept to describe far more complex conditions. As I've posted before, prior to last year, Mark Few had identical "ceiling" talk. Did he actually change or did people just rework the narrative to fit the result.

That's what it is, creating a narrative to fit the result.

cpt · Post by **cpt** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:49 am

I don't have any doubts about Sean Miller as a recruiter. I have a ton of doubts about him as a coach. He gets out-schemed over and over and over again. He doesn't make great in-game adjustments. He doesn't have his players ready to play. He doesn't know how to best utilize talent. He gives the keys to the car to PGs that are not top-tier PGs - and then sticks with them. If he left, I immediately would be interested in who the next guy is and whether he could bring back the fun and the effort. So...not pumped at all. Scandal or no scandal.

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:51 am

Damn, Newport. Just a sobering, well reasoned critique of the “stick with Miller” mindset. I agree: the comparisons to Lute are silly.

My concern with moving on from Miller now is that we may not be able to draw the kind of coach (Musselman, for instance) that can carry this program’s legacy. Is the AZ job currently a desirable destination for proven, talented coaches?

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:06 am

Damn good history lesson Newport.

For us younger folks (I’ll claim mid 30s as younger) what brought lute to Arizona? Seems like quite the jump to leave a program you have rolling at Iowa for an unheard of formally wac program.

baycat93 · Post by **baycat93** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:07 am

Damn, Newport bringing the heat.

As to the OP... brought a smile to my face. Bring it On!.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:13 am

Newportcat wrote:
I am going to do my best not to come across as a Dick but I am really sick of people comparing Lute to Sean Miller. I think it is a really poor comparsion for a mulitude of reasons.

Lute took over Long Beach State and lead them to their greatest season in the history of the school. He is still revered in the Long Beach area as he had great success at Long Beach City College that has not really be duplicated since.

Lute then went to Iowa and led them to great success including a Final Four. He was 2 time Big Ten coach of the year and the program has never even come close to replicating the success he had since he left in 1983. They have not been back to a Final Four and have not won a Big Ten Championship since he left. Their last elite 8 appearence was 1987 and Sweet 16 was 1999. Lute was honored by Iowa a couple years back and fans are still upset he left for Arizona in 1983. When a program that is successful basically dies after you leave, shows you are a great coach.

Lute then took over a nothing program, Arizona. Literally a program with zero national recognition. Within 5 years he took us to a Final Four. He is a saint because he created a Miracle. It still blows my mind what he did. He also did have those two tourney losses in 1992 and 1993 but then came back in 1994 and made his third final four. He revamped his players to go away from big men to more guard oriented play and then 3 years after that we win the Tournament.

Sean Miller was the head coach at Xavier taking over a program that has historically performed well. He had success there for sure but that same success has been equaled by his predescor coach Chris Mack. Mack has had the same success Sean Miller has had, maybe even a bit more. People at Xavier have long since forgetton about Miller and are fine with their current head coach. Miller created no miracles at Xavier and the program has been fine.

Then Miller took over a program that yes was not in a good spot but had a great history, tradition, legacy, and tremendous fan and donor support. We sell out every game, travel well, and have given him every facility possible to ensure we have the best in the country. Our locker room is better then 80% of NBA locker rooms. I toured it and its nuts.

Miller in 9 years has not taken us to a final four and more specifically the past three years has won a total of 2 tournament games and lost three games to double digit seeds while tarnishing our programs reputation (I dont think he is guilty but Book sure is and that falls on Miller because Miller is the CEO of our program)

Anyone who said Lute had a ceiling in the early 90's was a fucking idiot. But Lute also changed and was willing to change his entire system. But at the time his system has taken two non-traditional powers to the Final Four so its amazing he was willing to change and adapt.

Boeheim only wins in March because he runs a funky defense that makes his teams unwatchable. I would hate to have that at Arizona. The 2-3 Zone is fucking awful for the game.

Mark Few is ten times the coach Miller is. For Few to get Gonzaga to the championship game is also a miracle. For Gonzaga to be as good as they are is a miracle as they are located in the middle of fucking nowhere in a nothing conference. I would take Few over Miller in 2 seconds flat.

Conference titles do not tell the story in a very weak PAC 12. PAC 12 has basically been garbage since he has been here. I believe one team (Oregon) has made a Final four from the PAC 12 since he has been here since 2009? One team. UCLA has been pretty weak the entire time. It is not like the PAC 12 of the 80's through 2000's when we had Elite teams consistently. Winning the PAC 12 is nothing special right now and has not been for a while.

Unless Miller changes, he has hit his ceiling. I am shocked anyone would disagree with that. Past three years should show that. And I have very serious doubts Miller will change and surprised anyone would disagree with that. "do what we do".

Again, I could be wrong and Arizona is on the cusp of making a final four after Miller completely changes his system....however that seems like a terrible bet to make

It feels like its 2006 and people are saying we should buy more homes when the reality is we need to sell and move on.

Again, just my opinions but do feel strongly that the Lute comparsion to Miller is really poor in any shape or form.

I disagree on a few points. What Lute did was different. It was also different times when you had players stay for 3 or 4 years. It was also a time with no social media...Lute would have been under a lot of heat in 1993, for his team was, at that point, established. I will agree the build was different, though I think it is unfair to ignore Fred Snowden and his program that built McKale and told us winning was, indeed, possible in Tucson. The build was different, but Miller also faced a crater and fixed it with mostly Xavier recruits, so ones he had developed before Arizona, and winning Solo back. But 2 years with no class, 2 interim coaches, and 3 players of any note (and Horne was not exactly a player of note at that point), while not what Lute did, is tremendous.

So, my points, some already touched on

1. Lute had already established the program with 1988, and had a #1 team in '89 and lost in the S16 to a #4. In 1990, he had a #2 seed that earned that seed with big wins OOC and in conference....and lost to a #7 seed. In 1991, the Cats had 4 wins against top 10 teams, got a #2 seed, and lost in the S16 (th #3, so progress). In 1992, the Cats were 24-5 before a lost weekend in LA, and promptly lost as a #3 seed to a #14 seed. In 1993, the Cats were in the Top 10 from mid January to the end of the season, finished with a #2 seed, a 24-3 record, and...lost to A #15 SEED Santa Clara. So the rebuild wasn't the same...both were incredibly difficult, however. And Lute had established the Arizona program as a national program, beating national teams every November and December...yet lost to a lower seed five years in a row, 3 of them a 5+ seed differential. So, yeah...in year 10, in our era today...Lute Olson is more than on the hot seat. And how idiotic would that decision have been? He had a bad run with a team of players that were largely the same for 1992 and 1993. That is familiar. But one Final Four in 1988...at that point, that was the only year in 8 that he played to, or above seed. And this isn't anti-Lute...it's anti-overreaction.

2. In Lute Olson's era, players stayed for 3 or 4 years. Until the very end. Continuity was easy to maintain. Lute went after the top players, but until Mike Bibby, he mostly got that mid top-100 level player. But he didn't set out to recruit like that. And once he could get top players, he did. But the difference in developing a team with 3 and 4 year continuity vs starting over with multiple one and two and done's...the success rate outside of the biggest of big programs has been impacted by this. We have seen Izzo fall off, Self is not a successful tournament coach lately. Calipari had some misfires "reloading". Some historic programs just disappeared. Recruiting becomes more of a need in this era, unless you intentionally don't get the best player you can, which is ludicrous, and any coach that tells you "we build with 4 year players intentionally" is lying.

3. The rebuild...yes, Lute's was more difficult to start. Not to maintain. Again...3 to 4 year players. Mostly 4 year. But Lute came to Tucson because of a great AD, but also because of McKale, and he was from the west, and knew what Fred Snowden had done in a lesser conference, and what was possible in a larger city with no other game in town. He didn't just come here to see cactus. The west had few contenders for players, the PAC was down, and he had connections. Once his program got to 1988, how was it anything but his program? 1989-1993 were colossal failures in the post-season. How can they be viewed any other way?

Lute Olson is a God to me. He is the Father of our program. None of this is to denigrate Lute...just to point out how the greats have struggled in stretches in a one-and-done format. There was a pretty consistent thread between 1990 and 1993, one that changed in 1994. There is a pretty consistent thread from 2016-2018. If Miller had 5 straight years losing to a lower seed, including a #7, #4 as a #1, #14 and #15...well, he would have never gotten the opportunity to lose to Santa Clara. Different era. Doesn't make the comparison invalid, though.

The one major difference is this FBI issue. And you either believe Miller, or you don't. If you don't...then, by all means, support his ouster. But the Lute to Sean comparisons are valid in notable ways, the main difference in the world being these message boards and Twitter, etc. Miller is the best we can get right now...we'll see if he can re-tool and fix his legacy, much like Lute went from "one round Lute" to a HOF national champion with 4 Final Fours in 13 years.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:22 am

The comparison is dill. One is a HOF coach and the other working at it. To me the game has changed with the impact of the NBA. Lute had guys staying 3 to 4 years which is such a huge advantage.

A Sr in Kerr with a Jr in Elliot. A Bunch of upperclassmen led by Kahlil Reeves. A bunch of seasoned NBA guys in 01and a MOP in Simon with the best PG in college bball was unbeatable in 97. Miller has never had this. Mark Few had had more of this thus his success I'M over Miller.

Should Miller makes changes, YES! He is still in my mind a top 10 coach and I think this event will give him the reflection needed to make some recruiting philosophy changes.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:24 am

azcat49 wrote:The comparison is dill. One is a HOF coach and the other working at it. To me the game has changed with the impact of the NBA. Lute had guys staying 3 to 4 years which is such a huge advantage.

A Sr in Kerr with a Jr in Elliot. A Bunch of upperclassmen led by Kahlil Reeves. A bunch of seasoned NBA guys in 01and a MOP in Simon with the best PG in college bball was unbeatable in 97. Miller has never had this. Mark Few had had more of this thus his success I'M over Miller.

Should Miller makes changes, YES! He is still in my mind a top 10 coach and I think this event will give him the reflection needed to make some recruiting philosophy changes.

The comparison is to 1993, not 2018 Lute. So, yeah, absolutely...to cherry-pick Lute's results down the line to where he was in 1993 is unfair.

I do think it is fair to compare Lute 1993 to Miller right now. And things were baaaad in 1993.

cpt · Post by **cpt** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:44 am

EVCat wrote:
azcat49 wrote:The comparison is dill. One is a HOF coach and the other working at it. To me the game has changed with the impact of the NBA. Lute had guys staying 3 to 4 years which is such a huge advantage.

A Sr in Kerr with a Jr in Elliot. A Bunch of upperclassmen led by Kahlil Reeves. A bunch of seasoned NBA guys in 01and a MOP in Simon with the best PG in college bball was unbeatable in 97. Miller has never had this. Mark Few had had more of this thus his success I'M over Miller.

Should Miller makes changes, YES! He is still in my mind a top 10 coach and I think this event will give him the reflection needed to make some recruiting philosophy changes.
The comparison is to 1993, not 2018 Lute. So, yeah, absolutely...to cherry-pick Lute's results down the line to where he was in 1993 is unfair.

I do think it is fair to compare Lute 1993 to Miller right now. And things were baaaad in 1993.

Except look what you had coming back the next season: Damon Stoudamire and Reeves - the best backcourt in the country and I would argue, the best backcourt we've ever had.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:56 am

cpt wrote:
EVCat wrote:
azcat49 wrote:The comparison is dill. One is a HOF coach and the other working at it. To me the game has changed with the impact of the NBA. Lute had guys staying 3 to 4 years which is such a huge advantage.

A Sr in Kerr with a Jr in Elliot. A Bunch of upperclassmen led by Kahlil Reeves. A bunch of seasoned NBA guys in 01and a MOP in Simon with the best PG in college bball was unbeatable in 97. Miller has never had this. Mark Few had had more of this thus his success I'M over Miller.

Should Miller makes changes, YES! He is still in my mind a top 10 coach and I think this event will give him the reflection needed to make some recruiting philosophy changes.
The comparison is to 1993, not 2018 Lute. So, yeah, absolutely...to cherry-pick Lute's results down the line to where he was in 1993 is unfair.

I do think it is fair to compare Lute 1993 to Miller right now. And things were baaaad in 1993.
Except look what you had coming back the next season: Damon Stoudamire and Reeves - the best backcourt in the country and I would argue, the best backcourt we've ever had.

Sure...but Reeves was largely a player that did not play to ability through those 3 years, and Damon was effective at 11ppg, but not what he became in 1993-94. Khalid doubled his ppg with 5 minutes more PT per game, and only 1 minute more than his sophomore year, when he scored 11 fewer points per game than he would in 1993-94. That backcourt had not yet blown up.

And this comes back to a point I made elsewhere...either you believe Miller is telling the truth or not. Our current situation is not made of his inability to recruit. So, who available is better? And, up to 1993, Lute had failed with very good players. We were also unranked in the pre-season coaches poll in 1993-94, so the backcourt was not a certain thing...no one thought we were a Final Four caliber team in 1993-94.

Lute wasn't given a pass for 1989-1993 because of what he had returning in 1993-94. From an expectation/polling standpoint, it was the worst team he had coming into a season since 1986-87. Obviously, that was wrong...but that is hindsight.

azcat49 · Post by **azcat49** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:10 am

The one distinct difference was Lute altered his style of play your the roster on both ends of the court. Miller so far has been inflexible.

I think you are seeing some of the best tourney performances by coaches who are creative. Still think Miller will make some changes but mostly on who he recruits than on the court strategy changes

BBQ wildcat · Post by **BBQ wildcat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:45 am

I believe in Miller.

I want Miller to stay, completely be vindicated and clear his name, then move on, on his own terms, at a time of his own choosing.

BRING. IT. ON!!!!!

Irish27 · Post by **Irish27** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:06 pm

Hey guys, this thread was intended to get people pumped up for next year. I am tired of hearing the negative stuff. Where is all this money coming from and what top coach would come here? We already have a great coach. I remember when Kevin O'Neil was named the head coach and almost everyone loved the hired. After year one, no one liked him. I am happy with Miller and believe he will get this program to a Final Four again.

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:10 pm

Irish27 wrote:Hey guys, this thread was intended to get people pumped up for next year. I am tired of hearing the negative stuff. Where is all this money coming from and what top coach would come here? We already have a great coach. I remember when Kevin O'Neil was named the head coach and almost everyone loved the hired. After year one, no one liked him. I am happy with Miller and believe he will get this program to a Final Four again.

Miller is our coach. I want him to succeed and don't understand anyone who doesn't.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:31 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Irish27 wrote:Hey guys, this thread was intended to get people pumped up for next year. I am tired of hearing the negative stuff. Where is all this money coming from and what top coach would come here? We already have a great coach. I remember when Kevin O'Neil was named the head coach and almost everyone loved the hired. After year one, no one liked him. I am happy with Miller and believe he will get this program to a Final Four again.
Miller is our coach. I want him to succeed and don't understand anyone who doesn't.

co-sign

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:01 pm

EVCat wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Irish27 wrote:Hey guys, this thread was intended to get people pumped up for next year. I am tired of hearing the negative stuff. Where is all this money coming from and what top coach would come here? We already have a great coach. I remember when Kevin O'Neil was named the head coach and almost everyone loved the hired. After year one, no one liked him. I am happy with Miller and believe he will get this program to a Final Four again.
Miller is our coach. I want him to succeed and don't understand anyone who doesn't.
co-sign

+1

U.P. Zona Fan · Post by **U.P. Zona Fan** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:06 pm

azcat49 wrote:The one distinct difference was Lute altered his style of play your the roster on both ends of the court. Miller so far has been inflexible.

I think you are seeing some of the best tourney performances by coaches who are creative. Still think Miller will make some changes but mostly on who he recruits than on the court strategy changes

Boeheim excluded.

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:53 pm

Irish27 wrote:Hey guys, this thread was intended to get people pumped up for next year. I am tired of hearing the negative stuff. Where is all this money coming from and what top coach would come here? We already have a great coach. I remember when Kevin O'Neil was named the head coach and almost everyone loved the hired. After year one, no one liked him. I am happy with Miller and believe he will get this program to a Final Four again.

Sorry, did not mean to hijack the thread

conny24 · Post by **conny24** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:22 pm

Newportcat wrote:
Irish27 wrote:Hey guys, this thread was intended to get people pumped up for next year. I am tired of hearing the negative stuff. Where is all this money coming from and what top coach would come here? We already have a great coach. I remember when Kevin O'Neil was named the head coach and almost everyone loved the hired. After year one, no one liked him. I am happy with Miller and believe he will get this program to a Final Four again.
Sorry, did not mean to hijack the thread

Hey guys, don't post very often so my apologies for taking up a little space here, but just wanted to offer my two cents. For those who say he has hit his ceiling and is unable/unwilling to adjust, don't think you it's possible these last few years have been an attempt to adjust? In our Elite Eight losses, we just needed that extra bucket here or there. So Miller went out and got guys like Trier, Markkanen, Simmons, etc. whose skills resided more on the offensive end. Markkanen and Ayton were no brainers in any circumstance, but there were options that would have fit our system better than Trier/Simmons/Alkins types. Also, as much as Dusan improved over his career, he really caused issues on the defensive end when paired with Markkanen or Ayton. He was probably our best option this year because of how good he was on the offensive end, but I doubt we see twin towers again (and for Miller naysayers, I agree we should have tried more zone if we were going to stick with those two playing together). If Miller is here moving forward, I expect to see our lineups look a lot more like 2013/14/15 than the ones we've ran out the last three years. Obviously, this next year or two is going to be tough, but I think he knows he has to go back to his roots and make small adjustments from there. Over and over this year, I saw people post that this was our most talented team in Miller's tenure, but that's only true if you consider one half of the court. Once defense is taking into account, we just weren't that good and while some of that lays at Miller the coach's feet, lots of it is on Miller the recruiter. I for one am excited to see how he builds the program back up and think a trip to the Final Four isn't as far off as it seems.

Bear Down!

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:10 pm

conny24 wrote:
Newportcat wrote:
Irish27 wrote:Hey guys, this thread was intended to get people pumped up for next year. I am tired of hearing the negative stuff. Where is all this money coming from and what top coach would come here? We already have a great coach. I remember when Kevin O'Neil was named the head coach and almost everyone loved the hired. After year one, no one liked him. I am happy with Miller and believe he will get this program to a Final Four again.
Sorry, did not mean to hijack the thread
Hey guys, don't post very often so my apologies for taking up a little space here, but just wanted to offer my two cents. For those who say he has hit his ceiling and is unable/unwilling to adjust, don't think you it's possible these last few years have been an attempt to adjust? In our Elite Eight losses, we just needed that extra bucket here or there. So Miller went out and got guys like Trier, Markkanen, Simmons, etc. whose skills resided more on the offensive end. Markkanen and Ayton were no brainers in any circumstance, but there were options that would have fit our system better than Trier/Simmons/Alkins types. Also, as much as Dusan improved over his career, he really caused issues on the defensive end when paired with Markkanen or Ayton. He was probably our best option this year because of how good he was on the offensive end, but I doubt we see twin towers again (and for Miller naysayers, I agree we should have tried more zone if we were going to stick with those two playing together). If Miller is here moving forward, I expect to see our lineups look a lot more like 2013/14/15 than the ones we've ran out the last three years. Obviously, this next year or two is going to be tough, but I think he knows he has to go back to his roots and make small adjustments from there. Over and over this year, I saw people post that this was our most talented team in Miller's tenure, but that's only true if you consider one half of the court. Once defense is taking into account, we just weren't that good and while some of that lays at Miller the coach's feet, lots of it is on Miller the recruiter. I for one am excited to see how he builds the program back up and think a trip to the Final Four isn't as far off as it seems.

Bear Down!

I can see where you are coming from but the fear I have is Miller will be unable to recruit players of the quality we need given everything going on. That's one of my major issues with him staying. Given the FBI situation we will be in recruiting purgatory with him for potentially awhile. We really have no idea if Miller or his assistants were that great of a recruiters or if we just paid better then other programs. Honestly and again, not trying to be a dick but it could be a real possibility.

I have actually had multiple people tell me this. That we paid well and we got stud recruits not just because Miller watched more of their AAU games. Think 97 has alluded to it too where other coaches knew we played the game well. Real fear that if we can not play the game for a couple years, it dramatically hurts us.

Every single person that I know that i believe knows how the sausage factory works tells me the exact same thing, Miller needs to move on. That he is now a pariah within recruiting circles and top recruits will avoid him like the plague to not be labeled as someone who got paid to come to Arizona. He has a better chance to change perceptions at another program if they will even take him.

Again, I could be totally wrong and am sorry to be negative. Trust me, when it comes to college basketball you do not want to know how the sausage is made as it will completely jade your view of the game. Again, why I love the NBA, sausage is made in a factory of glass that everyone gets to see into.

I just see no scenario now where we come out of this clean. And again, this does not even take into account some coaching deficits that I believe Miller has.

So yes Miller can want to adjust, but I think real possibility he is unable to bring in the type of recruits we need to adjust with.

conny24 · Post by **conny24** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:18 pm

Tough to have an argument if you’re going to be so rational. Every concern you’ve listed is completely valid and it’s why I wouldn’t be overly upset if there is a change. I have a little trouble understanding how we paid so well and never surpassed Duke/Kentucky, but I can’t pretend I know anything about that space. The one counter to these concerns is it’s going to be tough for anyone to come in and recruit right away, so by keeping Miller, I think we get to see how he does and can move on in two years if it proves to be untenable. By that time, there will be more clarity and the path forward will be much easier for an incoming coach, so it should be easier to attract talent.

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:43 pm

CalStateTempe wrote:Damn good history lesson Newport.

For us younger folks (I’ll claim mid 30s as younger) what brought lute to Arizona? Seems like quite the jump to leave a program you have rolling at Iowa for an unheard of formally wac program.

Two words Cedric Dempsey

He sold Lute on the vision of what Arizona could be. Lutewanted to get back out west as he was sick of the Midwest winters

He had tons of connections in SoCal and knew Arizona was a sleeping giant.

God bless Cedric Dempsey for being the visionary/salesman he was

Postmaster · Post by **Postmaster** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:16 pm

Any sanctions will be here with or without Miller.
More than likely no sanctions will come for at least two years.
If az is only place paying players, why do so many players choose other schools over AZ?

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:17 pm

Postmaster wrote:Any sanctions will be here with or without Miller.
More than likely no sanctions will come for at least two years.
If az is only place paying players, why do so many players choose other schools over AZ?

Everyone pays, some just pay more then others

Beachcat97 · Post by **Beachcat97** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:36 pm

Newportcat wrote:
Postmaster wrote:Any sanctions will be here with or without Miller.
More than likely no sanctions will come for at least two years.
If az is only place paying players, why do so many players choose other schools over AZ?
Everyone pays, some just pay more then others

By this logic, UK and Duke must be paying the most. Have a look at their recent and upcoming recruiting classes.

PennZona20 · Post by **PennZona20** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:47 pm

Newportcat wrote:
zonagrad wrote:Fans calling for Miller's ouster should be careful what they wish for. Especially when they have absolutely no clue if Miller did anything wrong.
I am one of those fans who at this point believes Miller and the U of A should part ways given everything going on.

Dismissing the entire FBI situation, I personally believe we have seen Miller's ceiling as a coach. That Buffalo loss coupled with the Xavier loss coupled with the Wichita State loss in successive years in the tourney were all really bad. I do not think Miller's system works in the tourney and he needs to change and adapt in order to progress as a coach. I also have very serious doubts he will be able to do so given the "Do what we do" mantra he lives by. I think there are better coaches out there we could get like an Eric Musselman.

Now when you include the FBI situation and how long that is going to take to drag out, I think we will get more punished if we role with the "We did not do anything wrong angle". Our program did. Book was arrested. Per NCAA rules, that falls on Miller. Miller also knew Book was shady but was too loyal to fire him. The entire town of Tucson knew Book was shady. Everyone here knew Book was selling info to ACE from PointguardU. I personally did not think Miller himself did anything in this situation. But our program is not walking away from this scott free. Zero chance NCAA lets that happen. We are the perfect program to fuck. We are not Duke but we are a known brand. But that could take a year or two to play out so until then our recruiting will suffer big time.

I see no way this ends well if Miller stays personally. Could be dead wrong and will be happy to eat Crow if I am.

This is exactly where I’m at as well. Including hoping I’m wrong and Miller makes us eat crow.

I disagree about Miller’a ceiling as a coach though. If he’s reached his ceiling it’s because this fbi thing won’t ever allow him to grab a Gordon, Lauri, Ayton again. Which, since the rule will change soon, it might not matter. But a guy like Lauri we might have got for 2 years.

I also think he needs to alter his recruiting strategy a bit if we can ever return to top level recruiting. You obv go after the best of the best if u can get them and they are coming to college. But there are guys (tj, devincenzo) that are going to be better college players than their rankings. Recruiting rankings are based on pro potential, not college productivity. I loved trier and feel for what he went thru ..... but give me 50 jalen Brunsons before 1 trier.

EOCT · Post by **EOCT** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:14 am

ChooChooCat wrote:
EVCat wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Irish27 wrote:Hey guys, this thread was intended to get people pumped up for next year. I am tired of hearing the negative stuff. Where is all this money coming from and what top coach would come here? We already have a great coach. I remember when Kevin O'Neil was named the head coach and almost everyone loved the hired. After year one, no one liked him. I am happy with Miller and believe he will get this program to a Final Four again.
Miller is our coach. I want him to succeed and don't understand anyone who doesn't.
co-sign
+1

Co-sign. Absolutely. The magic words--BEAR DOWN! BEAR DOWN CATS!

ByJoveByJingle · Post by **ByJoveByJingle** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:36 am

Newportcat wrote:
CalStateTempe wrote:Damn good history lesson Newport.

For us younger folks (I’ll claim mid 30s as younger) what brought lute to Arizona? Seems like quite the jump to leave a program you have rolling at Iowa for an unheard of formally wac program.
Two words Cedric Dempsey

He sold Lute on the vision of what Arizona could be. Lutewanted to get back out west as he was sick of the Midwest winters

He had tons of connections in SoCal and knew Arizona was a sleeping giant.

God bless Cedric Dempsey for being the visionary/salesman he was

I also vaguely remember that Lute was frustrated with the fan base being too intrusive in his day-to-day life. This is an underrated aspect of the Arizona job: sure the fan base is fanatical and like all fan bases fickle . . . but compared to the Kentuckys and other passionate fan bases, Tucsonans let the coach live his life away from the game. In other words, just the right amount of passion without going overboard. That’s a Goldilocks zone that is hard to replicate. Either you are at UCLA where the fans don’t give two shits about anything except complaining about not winning national championships and assiduously avoiding attending games, or you’re at Kentucky where they run you out of town on rails if they deem necessary. In Tucson, the porridge is just right—tons of support while providing enough distance to enjoy life a little bit.

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:51 am

ByJoveByJingle wrote:I also vaguely remember that Lute was frustrated with the fan base being too intrusive in his day-to-day life.

I forgot who said it, maybe Vitale, but the quote was that there are 2 coaches in college basketball where if they walk into a restaurant, everyone stops talking and looks up. Lute was one, Bobby Knight the other.

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:59 am

Newportcat wrote:
I can see where you are coming from but the fear I have is Miller will be unable to recruit players of the quality we need given everything going on. That's one of my major issues with him staying. Given the FBI situation we will be in recruiting purgatory with him for potentially awhile. We really have no idea if Miller or his assistants were that great of a recruiters or if we just paid better then other programs. Honestly and again, not trying to be a dick but it could be a real possibility.

I have actually had multiple people tell me this. That we paid well and we got stud recruits not just because Miller watched more of their AAU games. Think 97 has alluded to it too where other coaches knew we played the game well. Real fear that if we can not play the game for a couple years, it dramatically hurts us.

Every single person that I know that i believe knows how the sausage factory works tells me the exact same thing, Miller needs to move on. That he is now a pariah within recruiting circles and top recruits will avoid him like the plague to not be labeled as someone who got paid to come to Arizona. He has a better chance to change perceptions at another program if they will even take him.

Again, I could be totally wrong and am sorry to be negative. Trust me, when it comes to college basketball you do not want to know how the sausage is made as it will completely jade your view of the game. Again, why I love the NBA, sausage is made in a factory of glass that everyone gets to see into.

I just see no scenario now where we come out of this clean. And again, this does not even take into account some coaching deficits that I believe Miller has.

So yes Miller can want to adjust, but I think real possibility he is unable to bring in the type of recruits we need to adjust with.

Where I disagree here is when a recruit pairs down to his final 8 or 6, if he is a player with a hand out, his needs are known and every single team has a way of meeting them. Not with the coach...coaches don't get involved. But we aren't out-paying teams. If player X needs $100,000, and his finalists are UK, Arizona, Texas, UCLA and Ohio State, all 5 have someone working with the player's handlers to pay that $100,000.

The recruiting...getting the player to come to our school? That is 100% Miller and his tireless recruiting. Coaches have spoken time and again to Miller's motor when it comes to being at every single game. And he closes well. I only have 2nd hand knowledge of two of his closes (neither player had a hand out), and in both cases, Miller had contacted early, stayed in touch, and most importantly, was candid and honest in his assessments while also, in one case, reminding the player of just how good he really is and that Miller knew that all along, when the kid doubted himself. He is just really, really good at recruiting.

But don't for one second think other programs going after the same 5* are not paying the going rate. The pay, or handout (there are so many ways to accomplish that through boosters and AAU that aren't "here's a $100,000 bag of gold"), if it is needed, is secondary. It is just the entry fee...the coaches get the player. There are individual, unique situations where a team may have an employer in pocket that a parent really wants to work for, etc, that can make that different. But Miller is winning those kids...our pay scale isn't

ChooChooCat · Post by **ChooChooCat** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:05 am

EVCat wrote:
Newportcat wrote:
I can see where you are coming from but the fear I have is Miller will be unable to recruit players of the quality we need given everything going on. That's one of my major issues with him staying. Given the FBI situation we will be in recruiting purgatory with him for potentially awhile. We really have no idea if Miller or his assistants were that great of a recruiters or if we just paid better then other programs. Honestly and again, not trying to be a dick but it could be a real possibility.

I have actually had multiple people tell me this. That we paid well and we got stud recruits not just because Miller watched more of their AAU games. Think 97 has alluded to it too where other coaches knew we played the game well. Real fear that if we can not play the game for a couple years, it dramatically hurts us.

Every single person that I know that i believe knows how the sausage factory works tells me the exact same thing, Miller needs to move on. That he is now a pariah within recruiting circles and top recruits will avoid him like the plague to not be labeled as someone who got paid to come to Arizona. He has a better chance to change perceptions at another program if they will even take him.

Again, I could be totally wrong and am sorry to be negative. Trust me, when it comes to college basketball you do not want to know how the sausage is made as it will completely jade your view of the game. Again, why I love the NBA, sausage is made in a factory of glass that everyone gets to see into.

I just see no scenario now where we come out of this clean. And again, this does not even take into account some coaching deficits that I believe Miller has.

So yes Miller can want to adjust, but I think real possibility he is unable to bring in the type of recruits we need to adjust with.
Where I disagree here is when a recruit pairs down to his final 8 or 6, if he is a player with a hand out, his needs are known and every single team has a way of meeting them. Not with the coach...coaches don't get involved. But we aren't out-paying teams. If player X needs $100,000, and his finalists are UK, Arizona, Texas, UCLA and Ohio State, all 5 have someone working with the player's handlers to pay that $100,000.

The recruiting...getting the player to come to our school? That is 100% Miller and his tireless recruiting. Coaches have spoken time and again to Miller's motor when it comes to being at every single game. And he closes well. I only have 2nd hand knowledge of two of his closes (neither player had a hand out), and in both cases, Miller had contacted early, stayed in touch, and most importantly, was candid and honest in his assessments while also, in one case, reminding the player of just how good he really is and that Miller knew that all along, when the kid doubted himself. He is just really, really good at recruiting.

But don't for one second think other programs going after the same 5* are not paying the going rate. The pay, or handout (there are so many ways to accomplish that through boosters and AAU that aren't "here's a $100,000 bag of gold"), if it is needed, is secondary. It is just the entry fee...the coaches get the player. There are individual, unique situations where a team may have an employer in pocket that a parent really wants to work for, etc, that can make that different. But Miller is winning those kids...our pay scale isn't

Bingo. In this shady world of recruiting Miller's job in regards to recruiting top talent is to make his program the most attractive Nike program to a recruit. So on the recruiting trail his job is to beat Duke, Kentucky, MSU, etc. It's on Nike to do their part and beat out Adidas and UnderArmour. That's how this shit goes down.

Newportcat · Post by **Newportcat** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:00 pm

EVCat wrote:
Newportcat wrote:
I can see where you are coming from but the fear I have is Miller will be unable to recruit players of the quality we need given everything going on. That's one of my major issues with him staying. Given the FBI situation we will be in recruiting purgatory with him for potentially awhile. We really have no idea if Miller or his assistants were that great of a recruiters or if we just paid better then other programs. Honestly and again, not trying to be a dick but it could be a real possibility.

I have actually had multiple people tell me this. That we paid well and we got stud recruits not just because Miller watched more of their AAU games. Think 97 has alluded to it too where other coaches knew we played the game well. Real fear that if we can not play the game for a couple years, it dramatically hurts us.

Every single person that I know that i believe knows how the sausage factory works tells me the exact same thing, Miller needs to move on. That he is now a pariah within recruiting circles and top recruits will avoid him like the plague to not be labeled as someone who got paid to come to Arizona. He has a better chance to change perceptions at another program if they will even take him.

Again, I could be totally wrong and am sorry to be negative. Trust me, when it comes to college basketball you do not want to know how the sausage is made as it will completely jade your view of the game. Again, why I love the NBA, sausage is made in a factory of glass that everyone gets to see into.

I just see no scenario now where we come out of this clean. And again, this does not even take into account some coaching deficits that I believe Miller has.

So yes Miller can want to adjust, but I think real possibility he is unable to bring in the type of recruits we need to adjust with.
Where I disagree here is when a recruit pairs down to his final 8 or 6, if he is a player with a hand out, his needs are known and every single team has a way of meeting them. Not with the coach...coaches don't get involved. But we aren't out-paying teams. If player X needs $100,000, and his finalists are UK, Arizona, Texas, UCLA and Ohio State, all 5 have someone working with the player's handlers to pay that $100,000.

The recruiting...getting the player to come to our school? That is 100% Miller and his tireless recruiting. Coaches have spoken time and again to Miller's motor when it comes to being at every single game. And he closes well. I only have 2nd hand knowledge of two of his closes (neither player had a hand out), and in both cases, Miller had contacted early, stayed in touch, and most importantly, was candid and honest in his assessments while also, in one case, reminding the player of just how good he really is and that Miller knew that all along, when the kid doubted himself. He is just really, really good at recruiting.

But don't for one second think other programs going after the same 5* are not paying the going rate. The pay, or handout (there are so many ways to accomplish that through boosters and AAU that aren't "here's a $100,000 bag of gold"), if it is needed, is secondary. It is just the entry fee...the coaches get the player. There are individual, unique situations where a team may have an employer in pocket that a parent really wants to work for, etc, that can make that different. But Miller is winning those kids...our pay scale isn't

I don’t disagree but would say we can outpay because Nike will pay more for our recruits then say to a USC because exposure is greater at Arizona

And yes you still need to sell. But my concern is we won’t be in the running because we can’t enter the dance given our inability to pay going forward. Also I think a lot of recruits won’t want to be thought of as getting paid and rightly or wrongly our program has national perception as a program who pays players.

Aka we might not have herpes but rumors are strong we do and that means a lot of people won’t go to bed with us

Again could be totally wrong as chicks still banged Jeter

EVCat · Post by **EVCat** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:34 pm

results are our biggest issue right now.

Calipari never missed a beat. And he has had two banners taken down and everyone assumes players at UK are dirty.

Win. All that matters. Win, and get them in the league (which is where the "no zone" concept comes into this whole thing and affects the play on the floor).

azcat34 · Post by **azcat34** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:41 pm

Newport's post is riddled with confirmation bias.

Sean Miller was the head coach at Xavier taking over a program that has historically performed well.

Xavier was an independent until 1979 and until that point had made the NCAA Tournament once (1961) and NIT once (1959).

Then was in the Midwestern Collegiate Conference until 1995 -- hardly a conference for basketball prowess.

Skip Prosser and Thad Matta are certainly accomplished coaches, but when Miller took over Xavier as a basketball program had made the second weekend twice -- and they have been playing basketball since the 1920's.

Miller had a down 17-12 season after Matta left, but then proceeded to have two trips to the second weekend of his own in his final four seasons at Xavier.

This also included Xavier's second round loss to the Conley and Oden Ohio State team that was one in my personal opinion one of the best NCAA tournament games I had ever seen. Here is a refresher:

Point is, Miller's accomplishments at Xavier were extremely impressive. That combined with being a Jamelle Horne shot, a Nick Johnson shot and a 3-point shooting barrage by Wisconsin that was completely undefendable from making a Final Four at Arizona is pretty damn impressive.

Wichita State loss sucked, Buffalo loss really sucked -- but Miller has still made the second weekend five times in nine years Arizona. Let's not forget that our program was nothing short of a dumpster fire that the Andy Katz's of the world thought would take five years just to rebuild. Miller's 16-15 season is probably one of his most impressive considering what team he had in place when he took the job in 2009.

Lute was an excellent coach and a visionary for seeing the potential Arizona had, but Miller is a more than worthy successor.

Arizona isn't the only school caught up in this scandal and when all the evidence from the FBI gets out there will be many more.

Arizona is extremely lucky to have a coach like Miller and it is disappointing to see so many posters on this site do a total 180 on him after an admittedly terrible end to this season. The vast majority of schools around the country would love to have him.

ByJoveByJingle · Post by **ByJoveByJingle** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:03 pm

I remember watching that game from a hotel room in Amsterdam. Ohio State was damn lucky to escape with the win.

TatetheGreat · Post by **TatetheGreat** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:15 pm

It's confirmation bias to excuse those second weekend losses as bad luck. We had more talented teams in every instance and lost to better coaches.

ByJoveByJingle · Post by **ByJoveByJingle** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:23 pm

TatetheGreat wrote:It's confirmation bias to excuse those second weekend losses as bad luck. We had more talented teams in every instance and lost to better coaches.

Did somebody blame the first weekend losses on bad luck? The York team was a transitional team that was never built for a deep run. The Xavier loss was extremely disappointing. But it’s not like Xavier is chopped liver. Buffalo was an absolute train wreck. But perhaps there were extenuating circumstances there? Just a thought.

TatetheGreat · Post by **TatetheGreat** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:34 pm

ByJoveByJingle wrote:
TatetheGreat wrote:It's confirmation bias to excuse those second weekend losses as bad luck. We had more talented teams in every instance and lost to better coaches.
Did somebody blame the first weekend losses on bad luck? The York team was a transitional team that was never built for a deep run. The Xavier loss was extremely disappointing. But it’s not like Xavier is chopped liver. Buffalo was an absolute train wreck. But perhaps there were extenuating circumstances there? Just a thought.

I was actually responding to azcat34 and others who bring up the "bad breaks" we always seem to have under Miller. Notice how we never overachieve with less talent and underachieve with more (don't say we overachieved in '10-'11 because that team was really, really good).

Spaceman Spiff · Post by **Spaceman Spiff** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:37 pm

ByJoveByJingle wrote:
TatetheGreat wrote:It's confirmation bias to excuse those second weekend losses as bad luck. We had more talented teams in every instance and lost to better coaches.
Did somebody blame the first weekend losses on bad luck? The York team was a transitional team that was never built for a deep run. The Xavier loss was extremely disappointing. But it’s not like Xavier is chopped liver. Buffalo was an absolute train wreck. But perhaps there were extenuating circumstances there? Just a thought.

Yeah, the 15-16 team just was not going anywhere. We were talented enough to be better this year, but not then. Xavier sucked, but we were in control of that game and just turtled in the last 2:40.

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