2018-2019 Arizona Basketball

[Chicat]

Yawn.

We went through the same thing with Lute and we somehow came through in '98 with that unexpected run where we almost went out in the first round. The Tourney has and always will be a fucking crap shoot.

Miller is the best coach for Arizona and will deliver someday.

Some of you posters really need therapy. STFU and wait until next year where btw we have the #1 recruiting class.

Having all those #3 classes really got Miller to the final four so I am sure the #1 class will do the trick.

At this point Lute won more conference titles than Miller has and the conference was much stronger then. And Lute had a final four at Arizona and one at Iowa.

Final fours are the real goal of a blue blood program. Cant strive to be one if you dont act like one and hold yourself to the same standards. I would give Miller this year and three more after this one to get a final four. That would be 13 fucking seasons. If he doesnt get to a final four by then he should be fired

I’d take this post semi-seriously if it came from an actual Arizona fan, but we all know your agenda.

[zonagrad]

Sean Miller was delivered an absolute Shit Sandwich in the fall of 2017. One of his main recruiters was arrested by the FBI for taking money from Agents to direct players to them. Something if anyone thinks Miller knew about it, is so dumb it hurts me to think you could have graduated from the same university as me.

What Book did though taking extra cash from shady agents to push kids to them is something Miller had zero clue about and if he did, would have fired Book on the spot. Challenge was, really no way to know Book was doing that. Thats why Miller has not been fired from the U of A after they have spent over $1.7M in legal fees looking into the matter.

Well, you left out Pasternack so that's 2 dirty assistants that Miller had absolutely no friggin idea what the hell they were up to and how they managed to reel in top-5 classes like magic every year. Also he never noticed anything with Book having worked more than 10 years together. Also he had no idea who this guy Dawkins was and why he was at some (closed to the public) practices "like he was on the team". Also Miller inexplicably admits that *JUST ONCE* someone suggested to him to do something shady and he did not do it.

Sound suspicious to me

Then after all this, Miller has to scramble to put a team on the court for this year. Literally field a team. Then does as good as he can but candidly the players are just not that good. It happens.

Every single player on the roster is a 4-star and there are two 5-stars
meanwhile asu is light years ahead with 4-stars and below


This is just laughable. ASU finished with a losing record in the Pac 12 last year, was swept by Arizona. Arizona won the Pac 12 regular season AND tournament. ASU is a decent team in a very mediocre conference this season. It's not that they're playing great, it's just that the rest of the conference is bad.

Miller either has the worst luck in the entire world or more likely he is a horrible developer of talent and an awful in-game coach whose whole team together is rarely if ever greater than the sum of its parts.
I keep scanning through the NBA box scores and sure see a lot of Miller's undeveloped talent putting up impressive numbers. To what do you attribute that?

Overall, a par for the course post by Rise & Fire. Care to comment on the incoming recruiting class Miller has put together?

Fact-based, objective and free of any Miller-fanboy hot air - always!

asu hasn't played a single P12 game so Im not sure what being in the P12 has to do with how their NET rating is 30 and ours is 65. By any objective measure they are light years ahead of us, having beaten #1 ku. Our two games against ranked opponents we got smoked by 15-20

Recruiting class looks AWESOME and I could not be any less hyped.
Just for a second lets all pretend the recruits actually enroll at UA next year and Book's April trial is totally bombshell-free and no NCAA penalties are handed down. Phew! As usual the whole of the team under Miller will once again be worth less than the sum of the parts as is the case every year. They'll underachieve as usual and maybe get to the S16. IF they end up here.

I just bolded the part about ASU being light years ahead of Arizona. You know, the team that just lost at home. To Princeton. Light years ahead of Arizona after being swept by Arizona last season. And finishing with an 8-10 record in the Pac. And watching Arizona WIN the Pac. And the Pac Tourney. And having a coach who has never. Ever. Never ever beaten Arizona. Nor has his brother. But light years ahead of Arizona. Not ahead of Arizona by a slight margin. But LIGHT YEARS AHEAD OF ARIZONA.

[legallykenny]

I've always been critical of the Miller haters, and the large number of fans in our base (not this board specifically) who always think the sky is falling and think the only fix is to fire a head coach. That said, I get both sides of the argument at this point. Barring a miracle, this will be 18 years without a final 4.

Ive always been one to defend consistent regular season success over what we have seen at UCONN in recent years. On the flip side, its true, our conference has been shit for the most part, so I get that argument as well. Regardless, you have to ultimately win that elusive game at some point. It was an easier pill to swallow after TJ's second season when you werent too far removed from that knocking on the door feeling. But since then:

15-16: A top 25 all year (IIRC) team and ranked as high at #7 with seasoned seniors in Zeus and York with winning pedigrees off the great teams of years prior, a double double all you can ask for (except defense) from a grad transfer in Ryan Anderson, Kadeem Allen, and one of the best scoring freshmen in Arizona history, Trier, got embarrassed by a mid major in the round of 64. Our excuse being it was a "down year" due to roster turnover and a horrible matchup due to shit seeding. Very reasonable excuses at the time, but the trend continues.

16-17: Top 25 all year team and Top 10 most of the year (incl last 7 weeks of the season). An absolute unicorn in Lauri (our Kaminsky!!), another top-tier scorer in Trier, an excellent freshman in Rawle, an absolute glue guy and all around stud senior in Kadeem, a very good low post threat in jr Dusan, and a fairly solid bench (chance, pjc, and Kobi, albeit he somehow fell off completely. We beat a 15 seed, cool. We beat a solid but maybe a bit overrated mid major in St mary's, but then collapse in the sweet 16 to an 11 seed Xavier team who were down two very important pieces they started the season with. The kicker: Our "Kaminsky" only took 9 shots and IIRC, only 1 in the second half. His fault? Our excuse then was Alkins broke this thumb. Reasonable, but the trend continues.

17-18: Just when we were down about blowing our chance to finally break through that wall w out unicorn, we get the biggest unicorn since Shaq. Oh btw, we get Trier back, a guy who you could argue was the most dynamic scoring wing in the country. Oh btw, we got Rawle back too. We also had Dusan, who was now an elite low post threat, and a senior PJC, who all flaws and complaints aside was still solid and should have been enough. Our bench wasnt the best, but we had enough. A preseason top 3 team that couldnt quite figure it out but stayed in the top 25 most of the year, and was trending hot at the end w the conference tourny title and demolishing of Oregon. Then in the round of 64, we get completely embarrassed by a mid major. Our excuse was the season-long FBI drama. Reasonable? Maybe. But i say no based on the trends, and I dont know how the fuck u lose w a once in a lifetime freak of nature, arguably the best scoring wing in college basketball, and everything else mentioned above. Let alone to lose that badly.

If the excuse is, "well its because outside of TJ, we never had the right PG," that falls on Miller. TJ was arguably the most special players to play at Arizona. A "Rudy" with complete game talent who basically fell onto our lap. If the excuse is the FBI shit, well that too falls on Miller; we've been told about the many warning signs/red flags and the decision to keep him around was Miller. We are Arizona, eventually you have to overcome shit luck and win the games laid out before you. You have to overcome the shit luck. God knows we have had more talent than just about anyone else. You look at the TJ teams, yeah again, shit luck w Bash's foot, but that was one of two seasons and think of how outstanding those teams were. I can see the whole running into a special Wisky team, but why couldnt we be the special team they all had nightmares about? Its not like we didnt have elite defenders like Aaron Gordon, Rondae or Stanley for their nightmare Kaminskies or Dekkers. But again, the trends.

And here we are in this season. Again, our excuse is losing the house. Or ESPN. Maybe reasonable if not for the trends. Still complaining about our vanilla offense. Still complaining about Miller's stubborn ways. Still complaining about Miller's micromanaging. Still complaining about Miller's inability to play to the strengths of his personnel/fully utilizing his best pieces. Another season without a top 20 defense for a program that prides itself on it, etc. Miller's got some 3 and 4 year guys in place, but most are severely underperforming (still early) or were maybe just swings and misses in terms of Millers evaluation. We have another great class coming in. Lord knows that has never been the issue. No, I'm not sitting here with my pitchfork screaming for Miller to be fired. But, at this point, I FULLY understand the other side of the argument and I dont think its unreasonable. Next year may not be a final four or fired year, but he's gotta start getting us back to knocking on the door again.

Sorry, had some problems posting. I disagree with you on this simple fact that most of Miller's problems are more with attrition and continuity than his coaching ability. We've lost multiple key players to the pros who left too early (Nick Johnson, Justin Simon, Ray Smith, Kobi and Chance). Over the last four years if those players stay there's at least one FF among those campaigns.

Too many Wildcat fans think that talent alone wins tournaments. PJC and Trier were weak on defense and were not the guards you need to make a solid tournament run. Our backcourt was weak, Buffalo exploited it, and the tournament committee knew it. Buffalo was terribly underseeded, which was validated by their top 25 ranking this year. PJC and Trier were great on talent, but short on maturity. PJC was never the type of guard that could take over a game if needed. You can't put a four cylinder engine in a Ferrari. I don't think Miller ever expected the dropoff from TJ to PJC to be so dramatic, especially considering he was an ESPN 100 guard. Miller had trouble recruiting over him, with the final nail in the coffin with Trevon Duval picking Duke over us.

The Oregon game last year in Eugene really hurt us. Miller has to leave, Trier is suspended, we were on the cusp of a top 10 ranking, and we lose. The coaches hammered us in the ranking because of the ESPN article, we get rewarded with a 4 seed which should have at least been a 2 seed, and we face a hungry underseeded Buffalo team in the first round. All of the fans wanted to jump on Miller, but in reality I could see it coming from a mile away.

Trier's game was not really suited for NCAA ball, although he put up great numbers for us. His game is more pro oriented, which is why he is performing much better for the Knicks. The thing I like about Miller is that he is an insanely competitive coach and will not likely run into the PJC issue ever again. Again, I understand the frustration, but too many fans are too willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to Miller.

And who is responsible for those limited players being out there on the court? For guys 3 and 4 years deep in the program never overcoming their limitations? For guys who have no business leaving bailing the fuck out of the program at their first opportunity?

How in the world were we deserving of a 2 seed in your mind last year? Losing to a 13 seed in the first round hardly comes down to bad seeding. That's entirely on the rot in the program, which starts with the head coach.

[dovecanyoncat]

So, the Condoms play UCDavis tonight. And Bill Walton is, well, here.

[Newportcat]

Rot in the program???

[RawleArenas]

I've always been critical of the Miller haters, and the large number of fans in our base (not this board specifically) who always think the sky is falling and think the only fix is to fire a head coach. That said, I get both sides of the argument at this point. Barring a miracle, this will be 18 years without a final 4.

Ive always been one to defend consistent regular season success over what we have seen at UCONN in recent years. On the flip side, its true, our conference has been shit for the most part, so I get that argument as well. Regardless, you have to ultimately win that elusive game at some point. It was an easier pill to swallow after TJ's second season when you werent too far removed from that knocking on the door feeling. But since then:

15-16: A top 25 all year (IIRC) team and ranked as high at #7 with seasoned seniors in Zeus and York with winning pedigrees off the great teams of years prior, a double double all you can ask for (except defense) from a grad transfer in Ryan Anderson, Kadeem Allen, and one of the best scoring freshmen in Arizona history, Trier, got embarrassed by a mid major in the round of 64. Our excuse being it was a "down year" due to roster turnover and a horrible matchup due to shit seeding. Very reasonable excuses at the time, but the trend continues.

16-17: Top 25 all year team and Top 10 most of the year (incl last 7 weeks of the season). An absolute unicorn in Lauri (our Kaminsky!!), another top-tier scorer in Trier, an excellent freshman in Rawle, an absolute glue guy and all around stud senior in Kadeem, a very good low post threat in jr Dusan, and a fairly solid bench (chance, pjc, and Kobi, albeit he somehow fell off completely. We beat a 15 seed, cool. We beat a solid but maybe a bit overrated mid major in St mary's, but then collapse in the sweet 16 to an 11 seed Xavier team who were down two very important pieces they started the season with. The kicker: Our "Kaminsky" only took 9 shots and IIRC, only 1 in the second half. His fault? Our excuse then was Alkins broke this thumb. Reasonable, but the trend continues.

17-18: Just when we were down about blowing our chance to finally break through that wall w out unicorn, we get the biggest unicorn since Shaq. Oh btw, we get Trier back, a guy who you could argue was the most dynamic scoring wing in the country. Oh btw, we got Rawle back too. We also had Dusan, who was now an elite low post threat, and a senior PJC, who all flaws and complaints aside was still solid and should have been enough. Our bench wasnt the best, but we had enough. A preseason top 3 team that couldnt quite figure it out but stayed in the top 25 most of the year, and was trending hot at the end w the conference tourny title and demolishing of Oregon. Then in the round of 64, we get completely embarrassed by a mid major. Our excuse was the season-long FBI drama. Reasonable? Maybe. But i say no based on the trends, and I dont know how the fuck u lose w a once in a lifetime freak of nature, arguably the best scoring wing in college basketball, and everything else mentioned above. Let alone to lose that badly.

If the excuse is, "well its because outside of TJ, we never had the right PG," that falls on Miller. TJ was arguably the most special players to play at Arizona. A "Rudy" with complete game talent who basically fell onto our lap. If the excuse is the FBI shit, well that too falls on Miller; we've been told about the many warning signs/red flags and the decision to keep him around was Miller. We are Arizona, eventually you have to overcome shit luck and win the games laid out before you. You have to overcome the shit luck. God knows we have had more talent than just about anyone else. You look at the TJ teams, yeah again, shit luck w Bash's foot, but that was one of two seasons and think of how outstanding those teams were. I can see the whole running into a special Wisky team, but why couldnt we be the special team they all had nightmares about? Its not like we didnt have elite defenders like Aaron Gordon, Rondae or Stanley for their nightmare Kaminskies or Dekkers. But again, the trends.

And here we are in this season. Again, our excuse is losing the house. Or ESPN. Maybe reasonable if not for the trends. Still complaining about our vanilla offense. Still complaining about Miller's stubborn ways. Still complaining about Miller's micromanaging. Still complaining about Miller's inability to play to the strengths of his personnel/fully utilizing his best pieces. Another season without a top 20 defense for a program that prides itself on it, etc. Miller's got some 3 and 4 year guys in place, but most are severely underperforming (still early) or were maybe just swings and misses in terms of Millers evaluation. We have another great class coming in. Lord knows that has never been the issue. No, I'm not sitting here with my pitchfork screaming for Miller to be fired. But, at this point, I FULLY understand the other side of the argument and I dont think its unreasonable. Next year may not be a final four or fired year, but he's gotta start getting us back to knocking on the door again.

Sorry, had some problems posting. I disagree with you on this simple fact that most of Miller's problems are more with attrition and continuity than his coaching ability. We've lost multiple key players to the pros who left too early (Nick Johnson, Justin Simon, Ray Smith, Kobi and Chance). Over the last four years if those players stay there's at least one FF among those campaigns.

Too many Wildcat fans think that talent alone wins tournaments. PJC and Trier were weak on defense and were not the guards you need to make a solid tournament run. Our backcourt was weak, Buffalo exploited it, and the tournament committee knew it. Buffalo was terribly underseeded, which was validated by their top 25 ranking this year. PJC and Trier were great on talent, but short on maturity. PJC was never the type of guard that could take over a game if needed. You can't put a four cylinder engine in a Ferrari. I don't think Miller ever expected the dropoff from TJ to PJC to be so dramatic, especially considering he was an ESPN 100 guard. Miller had trouble recruiting over him, with the final nail in the coffin with Trevon Duval picking Duke over us.

The Oregon game last year in Eugene really hurt us. Miller has to leave, Trier is suspended, we were on the cusp of a top 10 ranking, and we lose. The coaches hammered us in the ranking because of the ESPN article, we get rewarded with a 4 seed which should have at least been a 2 seed, and we face a hungry underseeded Buffalo team in the first round. All of the fans wanted to jump on Miller, but in reality I could see it coming from a mile away.

Trier's game was not really suited for NCAA ball, although he put up great numbers for us. His game is more pro oriented, which is why he is performing much better for the Knicks. The thing I like about Miller is that he is an insanely competitive coach and will not likely run into the PJC issue ever again. Again, I understand the frustration, but too many fans are too willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to Miller.

And who is responsible for those limited players being out there on the court? For guys 3 and 4 years deep in the program never overcoming their limitations? For guys who have no business leaving bailing the fuck out of the program at their first opportunity?

How in the world were we deserving of a 2 seed in your mind last year? Losing to a 13 seed in the first round hardly comes down to bad seeding. That's entirely on the rot in the program, which starts with the head coach.

Don't think that we're on the same page. If we win at Oregon, we don't earn a 4 seed, and most likely never see the likes of Buffalo. Just so you know, guys transferring or leaving programs prematurely is not unique to Arizona, it's a nationwide thing. Some guys get bad intel and decide to leave, like Kobi, All Miller can do is advise and give his suggestions, but it's ultimately up to the player.

Buffalo's really good. Much better than their seeding, and we did not match up well with them and they shot well. I'm not saying its ok to lose to them, but they're not the Our Lady of the Disabled Children's type of team that everyone's making them out to be.

What I was saying about PJC is that you can't coach around a player that has maxed his talent level. We needed more guard help, and Miller didn't have the backup needed to help support PJC. He has it now, which leads me to believe that next year will be a very solid year.

[Chicat]

Isn’t Buffalo like 13-1 this season? They were really good last year and have continued to be really good.

[pc in NM]

Rot in the program???

Only a grossly over entitled fan (or fans) could determine that Miller’s record at Arizona is indicative of “rot in the program”....

Only a grossly over entitled fan (or fans) could convert the disappointment of a great eight loss into evidence of unsatisfactory coaching....

Such fans remind me of the UCLA fans in the post-Wooden years who chased off two consecutive excellent coaches (Bartow and Cunningham) - they were partly responsible for the eventual decline of that program, and the rise of Arizona. I loved sticking it to those egotistical bloated assholes!

[Newportcat]

God help us if we become UCLA fans

The one thing that I keep coming back to regarding understanding the fans who are upset with Miller or see bad trends or disappointed greatly with him or think he is the "Rot in the program" is the simple question of

Who would we possibly hire that is projected to be or as good as Sean Miller? To me thats the absolute fallacy with taking that side of the debate. If the goal is to make Final Fours, and we fire the coach that is #1 on the list of best coaches to never make a Final Four, then we better hire a coach who has made a Final Four or else the risks are far too great.

We would need to hire a coach with good west coast connections and has made a Final Four and still on the upswing of their career. We would need to hire Lute Olson again. Basically we would need a miracle or we would need to hire Mark Few which is not happening. Anyone other then Mark Few would bring huge amount of risks to the table that do not justify firing or letting go of Sean Miller anytime soon. It would be a Dick Tomey type of firing and look what that did to the football program.

So unless someone can convince me we would be a lock to get Mark Few (And at this point I see zero reason why he would leave as I do not see Arizona anymore, given how awful the PAC 12, as an upgrade job given the brand he has built at Gonzaga) we could kill our program firing Sean Miller. Literally destroy it. We could hire a coach who has had one or two good tourney runs at some random school so it makes you think he is this amazing coach. And then he is not potentially. And he is a worse coach and recruiter then Sean. And then our program becomes Indiana or Georgetown or UCLA or any of the other programs mentioned before that were once great and are now not. We were really close to being that in 2009 until Sean Miller saved us.

Basically my point is this, fans should support Miller until he starts losing in the regular season or not making the tournament consistently. All coaches go through bad swings with the NCAA Tournament. Its a cruel completely inefficient bitch. To not appreciate that is stupid. Lute went through a bad swing from 1989 through 1993 where he never made it past a sweet 16 and lost in the first round twice after having some awesome regular season teams. Some of the best in the history of our conference.

Jay Wright made a final four then did not make it past the Round of 32 for 6 years including having a losing season where he did not make the tournament

Sean Miller has more tournament wins then Tom Izzo the past three years. Should Tom Izzo be on the Hot Seat too?

There are no such things as Trends when it comes to the NCAA tournament given how inefficient it is and especially nowadays with how teams change so much. Its not like he lost twice in the first round with Deandre Ayton.

Am I happy with our tournament performance the past three years no. But I fully recognize we are talking about the University of Arizona and not UNC. We could easily be a nothing program ESPECIALLY given the state of the PAC 12. And I think Sean Miller is to competitive not to figure out a way to get to a Final Four. I think he is too good a recruiter not to take us there which keeps us relevant. And I am willing to ride with him for as long as it takes or he starts not making the tournament to see if it works because I know what is behind Door #2 is really fucking scary and full of potential major issues.

Tim Fucking Floyd

[ChooChooCat]

Chris Beard is my #1 choice to replace Sean if we ever have to replace him.

[legallykenny]

God help us if we become UCLA fans

The one thing that I keep coming back to regarding understanding the fans who are upset with Miller or see bad trends or disappointed greatly with him or think he is the "Rot in the program" is the simple question of

Who would we possibly hire that is projected to be or as good as Sean Miller? To me thats the absolute fallacy with taking that side of the debate. If the goal is to make Final Fours, and we fire the coach that is #1 on the list of best coaches to never make a Final Four, then we better hire a coach who has made a Final Four or else the risks are far too great.

We would need to hire a coach with good west coast connections and has made a Final Four and still on the upswing of their career. We would need to hire Lute Olson again. Basically we would need a miracle or we would need to hire Mark Few which is not happening. Anyone other then Mark Few would bring huge amount of risks to the table that do not justify firing or letting go of Sean Miller anytime soon. It would be a Dick Tomey type of firing and look what that did to the football program.

So unless someone can convince me we would be a lock to get Mark Few (And at this point I see zero reason why he would leave as I do not see Arizona anymore, given how awful the PAC 12, as an upgrade job given the brand he has built at Gonzaga) we could kill our program firing Sean Miller. Literally destroy it. We could hire a coach who has had one or two good tourney runs at some random school so it makes you think he is this amazing coach. And then he is not potentially. And he is a worse coach and recruiter then Sean. And then our program becomes Indiana or Georgetown or UCLA or any of the other programs mentioned before that were once great and are now not. We were really close to being that in 2009 until Sean Miller saved us.

Basically my point is this, fans should support Miller until he starts losing in the regular season or not making the tournament consistently. All coaches go through bad swings with the NCAA Tournament. Its a cruel completely inefficient bitch. To not appreciate that is stupid. Lute went through a bad swing from 1989 through 1993 where he never made it past a sweet 16 and lost in the first round twice after having some awesome regular season teams. Some of the best in the history of our conference.

Jay Wright made a final four then did not make it past the Round of 32 for 6 years including having a losing season where he did not make the tournament

Sean Miller has more tournament wins then Tom Izzo the past three years. Should Tom Izzo be on the Hot Seat too?

There are no such things as Trends when it comes to the NCAA tournament given how inefficient it is and especially nowadays with how teams change so much. Its not like he lost twice in the first round with Deandre Ayton.

Am I happy with our tournament performance the past three years no. But I fully recognize we are talking about the University of Arizona and not UNC. We could easily be a nothing program ESPECIALLY given the state of the PAC 12. And I think Sean Miller is to competitive not to figure out a way to get to a Final Four. I think he is too good a recruiter not to take us there which keeps us relevant. And I am willing to ride with him for as long as it takes or he starts not making the tournament to see if it works because I know what is behind Door #2 is really fucking scary and full of potential major issues.

Tim Fucking Floyd

Well, Sean is likely to miss the tournament this season and has zero Final Fours, so...

UCLA (multiple times) and Indiana have both made the Final Four since we last made it.

As for recruiting, I think Sean has taken advantage of short cuts (like criminally sketchy assistants and overrated prospects that the true recruiting powers shy away from) and our brand/sponsorhips that are available to any other coach who would come here and it is one of the things that has led to the problems in the program.

[zonagrad]

God help us if we become UCLA fans

The one thing that I keep coming back to regarding understanding the fans who are upset with Miller or see bad trends or disappointed greatly with him or think he is the "Rot in the program" is the simple question of

Who would we possibly hire that is projected to be or as good as Sean Miller? To me thats the absolute fallacy with taking that side of the debate. If the goal is to make Final Fours, and we fire the coach that is #1 on the list of best coaches to never make a Final Four, then we better hire a coach who has made a Final Four or else the risks are far too great.

We would need to hire a coach with good west coast connections and has made a Final Four and still on the upswing of their career. We would need to hire Lute Olson again. Basically we would need a miracle or we would need to hire Mark Few which is not happening. Anyone other then Mark Few would bring huge amount of risks to the table that do not justify firing or letting go of Sean Miller anytime soon. It would be a Dick Tomey type of firing and look what that did to the football program.

So unless someone can convince me we would be a lock to get Mark Few (And at this point I see zero reason why he would leave as I do not see Arizona anymore, given how awful the PAC 12, as an upgrade job given the brand he has built at Gonzaga) we could kill our program firing Sean Miller. Literally destroy it. We could hire a coach who has had one or two good tourney runs at some random school so it makes you think he is this amazing coach. And then he is not potentially. And he is a worse coach and recruiter then Sean. And then our program becomes Indiana or Georgetown or UCLA or any of the other programs mentioned before that were once great and are now not. We were really close to being that in 2009 until Sean Miller saved us.

Basically my point is this, fans should support Miller until he starts losing in the regular season or not making the tournament consistently. All coaches go through bad swings with the NCAA Tournament. Its a cruel completely inefficient bitch. To not appreciate that is stupid. Lute went through a bad swing from 1989 through 1993 where he never made it past a sweet 16 and lost in the first round twice after having some awesome regular season teams. Some of the best in the history of our conference.

Jay Wright made a final four then did not make it past the Round of 32 for 6 years including having a losing season where he did not make the tournament

Sean Miller has more tournament wins then Tom Izzo the past three years. Should Tom Izzo be on the Hot Seat too?

There are no such things as Trends when it comes to the NCAA tournament given how inefficient it is and especially nowadays with how teams change so much. Its not like he lost twice in the first round with Deandre Ayton.

Am I happy with our tournament performance the past three years no. But I fully recognize we are talking about the University of Arizona and not UNC. We could easily be a nothing program ESPECIALLY given the state of the PAC 12. And I think Sean Miller is to competitive not to figure out a way to get to a Final Four. I think he is too good a recruiter not to take us there which keeps us relevant. And I am willing to ride with him for as long as it takes or he starts not making the tournament to see if it works because I know what is behind Door #2 is really fucking scary and full of potential major issues.

Tim Fucking Floyd

Well, Sean is likely to miss the tournament this season and has zero Final Fours, so...

UCLA (multiple times) and Indiana have both made the Final Four since we last made it.

As for recruiting, I think Sean has taken advantage of short cuts (like criminally sketchy assistants and overrated prospects that the true recruiting powers shy away from) and our brand/sponsorhips that are available to any other coach who would come here and it is one of the things that has led to the problems in the program.

UCLA & Indiana both have done diddly shit since Sean Miller started at Arizona -- so that argument is worthless. UCLA has fired Ben Howland and now Steve Alford. Indiana made a Final Four under Mike Davis, who was fired a short time after because of lack of success. Indiana has done nothing since then and is on a slow climb back with Archie Miller. How many coaches has Indiana gone through?

I wouldn't trade Arizona's success the last 9 years with UCLA or Indiana. It's not even close.

To say Miller took advantage of recruiting shortcuts is to cherry pick arguments in the worst degree. You don't think Krzyzewski hasn't landed a few recruits out of the blue? Miller landed Markannen because he busted his ass. He landed Nico Mannion, despite the FBI mess, because of the relationships built with the family and player. In fact, the former Arizona players who are now having great success in the NBA have praised Miller and the program. No program is ever going to be perfect in getting recruits.

To dismiss Arizona's success on the floor and on the recruiting trail the last 9 years simply because of the "Arizona brand" is a flat out insult to Sean Miller and his efforts.

Is Miller above criticism? Of course not. And neither was Lute. Crap, Kevin fucking Flanagan was getting quality minutes for Arizona at one time. The Achilles heel for Arizona the last few seasons was lack of a quality point guard. Despite that, Miller guided Arizona to two Pac 12 Conference tourney titles.

[zonagrad]

God help us if we become UCLA fans

The one thing that I keep coming back to regarding understanding the fans who are upset with Miller or see bad trends or disappointed greatly with him or think he is the "Rot in the program" is the simple question of

Who would we possibly hire that is projected to be or as good as Sean Miller? To me thats the absolute fallacy with taking that side of the debate. If the goal is to make Final Fours, and we fire the coach that is #1 on the list of best coaches to never make a Final Four, then we better hire a coach who has made a Final Four or else the risks are far too great.

We would need to hire a coach with good west coast connections and has made a Final Four and still on the upswing of their career. We would need to hire Lute Olson again. Basically we would need a miracle or we would need to hire Mark Few which is not happening. Anyone other then Mark Few would bring huge amount of risks to the table that do not justify firing or letting go of Sean Miller anytime soon. It would be a Dick Tomey type of firing and look what that did to the football program.

So unless someone can convince me we would be a lock to get Mark Few (And at this point I see zero reason why he would leave as I do not see Arizona anymore, given how awful the PAC 12, as an upgrade job given the brand he has built at Gonzaga) we could kill our program firing Sean Miller. Literally destroy it. We could hire a coach who has had one or two good tourney runs at some random school so it makes you think he is this amazing coach. And then he is not potentially. And he is a worse coach and recruiter then Sean. And then our program becomes Indiana or Georgetown or UCLA or any of the other programs mentioned before that were once great and are now not. We were really close to being that in 2009 until Sean Miller saved us.

Basically my point is this, fans should support Miller until he starts losing in the regular season or not making the tournament consistently. All coaches go through bad swings with the NCAA Tournament. Its a cruel completely inefficient bitch. To not appreciate that is stupid. Lute went through a bad swing from 1989 through 1993 where he never made it past a sweet 16 and lost in the first round twice after having some awesome regular season teams. Some of the best in the history of our conference.

Jay Wright made a final four then did not make it past the Round of 32 for 6 years including having a losing season where he did not make the tournament

Sean Miller has more tournament wins then Tom Izzo the past three years. Should Tom Izzo be on the Hot Seat too?

There are no such things as Trends when it comes to the NCAA tournament given how inefficient it is and especially nowadays with how teams change so much. Its not like he lost twice in the first round with Deandre Ayton.

Am I happy with our tournament performance the past three years no. But I fully recognize we are talking about the University of Arizona and not UNC. We could easily be a nothing program ESPECIALLY given the state of the PAC 12. And I think Sean Miller is to competitive not to figure out a way to get to a Final Four. I think he is too good a recruiter not to take us there which keeps us relevant. And I am willing to ride with him for as long as it takes or he starts not making the tournament to see if it works because I know what is behind Door #2 is really fucking scary and full of potential major issues.

Tim Fucking Floyd

This. All of this. And for the fans who are serious about getting rid of Miller -- you're not welcome back on the bandwagon next year when Arizona is atop the Pac 12 and possibly making a great tourney run.

[PHXCATS]

What are you going to do and say if Miller doesnt win the PAC12 next year?

Also didnt know you were the conductor of the bandwagon. How many of the five regular season title tshirts do you have?

[PHXCATS]

If PAC12 titles mean more than final fours can you answer two things for me zonagrad please

Why at McKale do they have the final four banners above the court and PAC12 titles on a single banner on the back wall?
And why in the intro video does the conference titles come so much earlier than four final fours?

[legallykenny]

God help us if we become UCLA fans

The one thing that I keep coming back to regarding understanding the fans who are upset with Miller or see bad trends or disappointed greatly with him or think he is the "Rot in the program" is the simple question of

Who would we possibly hire that is projected to be or as good as Sean Miller? To me thats the absolute fallacy with taking that side of the debate. If the goal is to make Final Fours, and we fire the coach that is #1 on the list of best coaches to never make a Final Four, then we better hire a coach who has made a Final Four or else the risks are far too great.

We would need to hire a coach with good west coast connections and has made a Final Four and still on the upswing of their career. We would need to hire Lute Olson again. Basically we would need a miracle or we would need to hire Mark Few which is not happening. Anyone other then Mark Few would bring huge amount of risks to the table that do not justify firing or letting go of Sean Miller anytime soon. It would be a Dick Tomey type of firing and look what that did to the football program.

So unless someone can convince me we would be a lock to get Mark Few (And at this point I see zero reason why he would leave as I do not see Arizona anymore, given how awful the PAC 12, as an upgrade job given the brand he has built at Gonzaga) we could kill our program firing Sean Miller. Literally destroy it. We could hire a coach who has had one or two good tourney runs at some random school so it makes you think he is this amazing coach. And then he is not potentially. And he is a worse coach and recruiter then Sean. And then our program becomes Indiana or Georgetown or UCLA or any of the other programs mentioned before that were once great and are now not. We were really close to being that in 2009 until Sean Miller saved us.

Basically my point is this, fans should support Miller until he starts losing in the regular season or not making the tournament consistently. All coaches go through bad swings with the NCAA Tournament. Its a cruel completely inefficient bitch. To not appreciate that is stupid. Lute went through a bad swing from 1989 through 1993 where he never made it past a sweet 16 and lost in the first round twice after having some awesome regular season teams. Some of the best in the history of our conference.

Jay Wright made a final four then did not make it past the Round of 32 for 6 years including having a losing season where he did not make the tournament

Sean Miller has more tournament wins then Tom Izzo the past three years. Should Tom Izzo be on the Hot Seat too?

There are no such things as Trends when it comes to the NCAA tournament given how inefficient it is and especially nowadays with how teams change so much. Its not like he lost twice in the first round with Deandre Ayton.

Am I happy with our tournament performance the past three years no. But I fully recognize we are talking about the University of Arizona and not UNC. We could easily be a nothing program ESPECIALLY given the state of the PAC 12. And I think Sean Miller is to competitive not to figure out a way to get to a Final Four. I think he is too good a recruiter not to take us there which keeps us relevant. And I am willing to ride with him for as long as it takes or he starts not making the tournament to see if it works because I know what is behind Door #2 is really fucking scary and full of potential major issues.

Tim Fucking Floyd

Well, Sean is likely to miss the tournament this season and has zero Final Fours, so...

UCLA (multiple times) and Indiana have both made the Final Four since we last made it.

As for recruiting, I think Sean has taken advantage of short cuts (like criminally sketchy assistants and overrated prospects that the true recruiting powers shy away from) and our brand/sponsorhips that are available to any other coach who would come here and it is one of the things that has led to the problems in the program.

UCLA & Indiana both have done diddly shit since Sean Miller started at Arizona -- so that argument is worthless. UCLA has fired Ben Howland and now Steve Alford. Indiana made a Final Four under Mike Davis, who was fired a short time after because of lack of success. Indiana has done nothing since then and is on a slow climb back with Archie Miller. How many coaches has Indiana gone through?

I wouldn't trade Arizona's success the last 9 years with UCLA or Indiana. It's not even close.

To say Miller took advantage of recruiting shortcuts is to cherry pick arguments in the worst degree. You don't think Krzyzewski hasn't landed a few recruits out of the blue? Miller landed Markannen because he busted his ass. He landed Nico Mannion, despite the FBI mess, because of the relationships built with the family and player. In fact, the former Arizona players who are now having great success in the NBA have praised Miller and the program. No program is ever going to be perfect in getting recruits.

To dismiss Arizona's success on the floor and on the recruiting trail the last 9 years simply because of the "Arizona brand" is a flat out insult to Sean Miller and his efforts.

Is Miller above criticism? Of course not. And neither was Lute. Crap, Kevin fucking Flanagan was getting quality minutes for Arizona at one time. The Achilles heel for Arizona the last few seasons was lack of a quality point guard. Despite that, Miller guided Arizona to two Pac 12 Conference tourney titles.

Whose fault is it that he had to rely on a shitty PG? Is he being out-recruited at PG by the 3 mid-majors who've beaten him in the tourney the past 3 years? That would certainly be a fireable failure wouldn't it?

And "4 star, top 100 recruit" PJC is exactly what I'm talking about when I say Sean has taken overrated prospects to boost his recruiting rating.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Much like the political debate, the reasonable voices on one side are drowned out by the idiocracy. But even if they weren’t, in both cases, it’s clear which side makes the more compelling arguments.

[zonagrad]

God help us if we become UCLA fans

The one thing that I keep coming back to regarding understanding the fans who are upset with Miller or see bad trends or disappointed greatly with him or think he is the "Rot in the program" is the simple question of

Who would we possibly hire that is projected to be or as good as Sean Miller? To me thats the absolute fallacy with taking that side of the debate. If the goal is to make Final Fours, and we fire the coach that is #1 on the list of best coaches to never make a Final Four, then we better hire a coach who has made a Final Four or else the risks are far too great.

We would need to hire a coach with good west coast connections and has made a Final Four and still on the upswing of their career. We would need to hire Lute Olson again. Basically we would need a miracle or we would need to hire Mark Few which is not happening. Anyone other then Mark Few would bring huge amount of risks to the table that do not justify firing or letting go of Sean Miller anytime soon. It would be a Dick Tomey type of firing and look what that did to the football program.

So unless someone can convince me we would be a lock to get Mark Few (And at this point I see zero reason why he would leave as I do not see Arizona anymore, given how awful the PAC 12, as an upgrade job given the brand he has built at Gonzaga) we could kill our program firing Sean Miller. Literally destroy it. We could hire a coach who has had one or two good tourney runs at some random school so it makes you think he is this amazing coach. And then he is not potentially. And he is a worse coach and recruiter then Sean. And then our program becomes Indiana or Georgetown or UCLA or any of the other programs mentioned before that were once great and are now not. We were really close to being that in 2009 until Sean Miller saved us.

Basically my point is this, fans should support Miller until he starts losing in the regular season or not making the tournament consistently. All coaches go through bad swings with the NCAA Tournament. Its a cruel completely inefficient bitch. To not appreciate that is stupid. Lute went through a bad swing from 1989 through 1993 where he never made it past a sweet 16 and lost in the first round twice after having some awesome regular season teams. Some of the best in the history of our conference.

Jay Wright made a final four then did not make it past the Round of 32 for 6 years including having a losing season where he did not make the tournament

Sean Miller has more tournament wins then Tom Izzo the past three years. Should Tom Izzo be on the Hot Seat too?

There are no such things as Trends when it comes to the NCAA tournament given how inefficient it is and especially nowadays with how teams change so much. Its not like he lost twice in the first round with Deandre Ayton.

Am I happy with our tournament performance the past three years no. But I fully recognize we are talking about the University of Arizona and not UNC. We could easily be a nothing program ESPECIALLY given the state of the PAC 12. And I think Sean Miller is to competitive not to figure out a way to get to a Final Four. I think he is too good a recruiter not to take us there which keeps us relevant. And I am willing to ride with him for as long as it takes or he starts not making the tournament to see if it works because I know what is behind Door #2 is really fucking scary and full of potential major issues.

Tim Fucking Floyd

Well, Sean is likely to miss the tournament this season and has zero Final Fours, so...

UCLA (multiple times) and Indiana have both made the Final Four since we last made it.

As for recruiting, I think Sean has taken advantage of short cuts (like criminally sketchy assistants and overrated prospects that the true recruiting powers shy away from) and our brand/sponsorhips that are available to any other coach who would come here and it is one of the things that has led to the problems in the program.

UCLA & Indiana both have done diddly shit since Sean Miller started at Arizona -- so that argument is worthless. UCLA has fired Ben Howland and now Steve Alford. Indiana made a Final Four under Mike Davis, who was fired a short time after because of lack of success. Indiana has done nothing since then and is on a slow climb back with Archie Miller. How many coaches has Indiana gone through?

I wouldn't trade Arizona's success the last 9 years with UCLA or Indiana. It's not even close.

To say Miller took advantage of recruiting shortcuts is to cherry pick arguments in the worst degree. You don't think Krzyzewski hasn't landed a few recruits out of the blue? Miller landed Markannen because he busted his ass. He landed Nico Mannion, despite the FBI mess, because of the relationships built with the family and player. In fact, the former Arizona players who are now having great success in the NBA have praised Miller and the program. No program is ever going to be perfect in getting recruits.

To dismiss Arizona's success on the floor and on the recruiting trail the last 9 years simply because of the "Arizona brand" is a flat out insult to Sean Miller and his efforts.

Is Miller above criticism? Of course not. And neither was Lute. Crap, Kevin fucking Flanagan was getting quality minutes for Arizona at one time. The Achilles heel for Arizona the last few seasons was lack of a quality point guard. Despite that, Miller guided Arizona to two Pac 12 Conference tourney titles.

Whose fault is it that he had to rely on a shitty PG? Is he being out-recruited at PG by the 3 mid-majors who've beaten him in the tourney the past 3 years? That would certainly be a fireable failure wouldn't it?

Like I said, it's not as though criticism isn't warranted. It is. PJC was a disaster. With each year, it looked like he might develop into a Pac 12 worthy point guard. He didn't. That's on Miller. If you want to fire Miller over that, then all I can say is you're crazy. And good luck attracting a quality coach with that type of tolerance.

The fact that Miller won as much as he did in spite of PJC is a testament to his coaching ability.

[legallykenny]

Much like the political debate, the reasonable voices on one side are drowned out by the idiocracy. But even if they weren’t, in both cases, it’s clear which side makes the more compelling arguments.

Thank you for your substantive contribution to this discussion. Did you run out of excuses for Sean?

[ByJoveByJingle]

At some point you just have to ignore the cries of “Fake News!” My excuses (otherwise known as rational discussion points) have already been made.

[zonagrad]

If PAC12 titles mean more than final fours can you answer two things for me zonagrad please

Why at McKale do they have the final four banners above the court and PAC12 titles on a single banner on the back wall?
And why in the intro video does the conference titles come so much earlier than four final fours?

Who said Pac 12 titles mean more than Final Fours?
The fact is, the conference titles speak to the health of your program. If Arizona wasn't winning the Pac, you'd use that as ammo to get rid of Miller as well.
The NCAA tourney is a crapshoot. Duke, Michigan State, Kansas, etc... all have their embarrassing losses to the likes of Lehigh, Mercer, Bucknell, Middle Tennessee State, etc...
I'm sorry Aaron Gordon couldn't make a FT and a ref made a shitty offensive foul call on Nick Johnson vs. Wisconsin. I'm sorry Wisky shot fucking 10-12 from 3pt range in the second half against Arizona. I'm sorry Jamelle Horne couldn't knock down an open 3 pointer against UCONN. That Sean Miller clearly can't coach. What the hell is Arizona doing with a guy who only wins his conference but lets us down every March?

[legallykenny]

At some point you just have to ignore the cries of “Fake News!” My excuses (otherwise known as rational discussion points) have already been made.

Dude, you have it backwards. Explaining away real world poor results with bullshit excuses is the "Fake News!" style of argument.

[legallykenny]

If PAC12 titles mean more than final fours can you answer two things for me zonagrad please

Why at McKale do they have the final four banners above the court and PAC12 titles on a single banner on the back wall?
And why in the intro video does the conference titles come so much earlier than four final fours?

Who said Pac 12 titles mean more than Final Fours?
The fact is, the conference titles speak to the health of your program. If Arizona wasn't winning the Pac, you'd use that as ammo to get rid of Miller as well.
The NCAA tourney is a crapshoot. Duke, Michigan State, Kansas, etc... all have their embarrassing losses to the likes of Lehigh, Mercer, Bucknell, Middle Tennessee State, etc...
I'm sorry Aaron Gordon couldn't make a FT and a ref made a shitty offensive foul call on Nick Johnson vs. Wisconsin. I'm sorry Wisky shot fucking 10-12 from 3pt range in the second half against Arizona. I'm sorry Jamelle Horne couldn't knock down an open 3 pointer against UCONN. That Sean Miller clearly can't coach. What the hell is Arizona doing with a guy who only wins his conference but lets us down every March?

You make your own luck in the world.

Duke, UK, Kansas and MSU never run into a hot shooter or a cold night from their star? Somehow they still make it to the FF. Or if one bad night does them in, they're back next year and overcome whatever that year's obstacle is. It would seem that we are still waiting for Sean to do that and in the meantime he's flailing about in the wrong direction.

And as to the people who complain about the conference or the NCAA or ESPN or whomever else, sometimes, when you think everyone else is an asshole, sometimes it's because you're the asshole. Sean has clearly pissed a lot of people in the industry off and it's counterproductive to successfully completing his job. Is there any sign he's fixing this rather than doubling down? I haven't seen it.

[PHXCATS]

It has been ten years. At some point it is either Miller isnt the man to get us to a title or Miller is cursed. Notice how I never said Fire Miller now. But we cant go 30 years without a final four either

[ByJoveByJingle]

Those schools don’t make it to the Final Four collectively in any given year, which means that they run into a hot shooter or bad call and don’t overcome it. Yes, Sean has failed to break through. We all know that. But I want a coach that consistently puts us in a position to overcome the hot shooter or to have the hot shooter be on our team. Up until the last few years, he consistently did that. It’s a bad trend. Nobody is arguing the point. But trends have causes and the least likely cause is that he forgot how to coach.

The asshole argument? From what I know, 95% of major college head coaches are assholes. Including Lute. Lute was one of the biggest assholes.

[zonagrad]

If PAC12 titles mean more than final fours can you answer two things for me zonagrad please

Why at McKale do they have the final four banners above the court and PAC12 titles on a single banner on the back wall?
And why in the intro video does the conference titles come so much earlier than four final fours?

Who said Pac 12 titles mean more than Final Fours?
The fact is, the conference titles speak to the health of your program. If Arizona wasn't winning the Pac, you'd use that as ammo to get rid of Miller as well.
The NCAA tourney is a crapshoot. Duke, Michigan State, Kansas, etc... all have their embarrassing losses to the likes of Lehigh, Mercer, Bucknell, Middle Tennessee State, etc...
I'm sorry Aaron Gordon couldn't make a FT and a ref made a shitty offensive foul call on Nick Johnson vs. Wisconsin. I'm sorry Wisky shot fucking 10-12 from 3pt range in the second half against Arizona. I'm sorry Jamelle Horne couldn't knock down an open 3 pointer against UCONN. That Sean Miller clearly can't coach. What the hell is Arizona doing with a guy who only wins his conference but lets us down every March?

You make your own luck in the world.

Duke, UK, Kansas and MSU never run into a hot shooter or a cold night from their star? Somehow they still make it to the FF. Or if one bad night does them in, they're back next year and overcome whatever that year's obstacle is. It would seem that we are still waiting for Sean to do that and in the meantime he's flailing about in the wrong direction.

And as to the people who complain about the conference or the NCAA or ESPN or whomever else, sometimes, when you think everyone else is an asshole, sometimes it's because you're the asshole. Sean has clearly pissed a lot of people in the industry off and it's counterproductive to successfully completing his job. Is there any sign he's fixing this rather than doubling down? I haven't seen it.

If Miller is so toxic, why does he have the #1 ranked recruiting class? How did he beat out Duke for Mannion? And North Carolina for Nnaji? Michigan State for Armstrong? Must be that toxic personality. Flailing is when your program is struggling on the recruiting trail. Clearly that is not happening. This is a down year. One down year. That's not a trend.

The fact is, ESPN doesn't give two shits about Arizona because we're in the Pac 12. We're an absolute afterthought to their business model. You can bet if Coach K takes a shit, ESPN will be there to wipe his ass because he's their money-maker.

[PHXCATS]

The true blue bloods
Dukes longest final four draught under K, six years
Kansas under Self six years
UNC under Williams seven years
Kentucky under Cal three years

Miller hasnt gotten to one yet anywhere and it has been 18 years for UA.

I am proposing giving Miller 14 years to make one. Twice as long as Williams longest draught and three times longer than Selfs and Ks and five times longer than Cals but I am being unrealistic?

FYO Izzo's longest draught is five years

[zonagrad]

It has been ten years. At some point it is either Miller isnt the man to get us to a title or Miller is cursed. Notice how I never said Fire Miller now. But we cant go 30 years without a final four either

The same logic you're applying to Miller you could easily apply to Lute. You know that don't you?

How could Lute not make the Final Four in '98 against a slow and plodding Utah team. How could every player from the '97 National Championship team not be able to knock down open shots against Utah's gimmick defense? How could Arizona blow a 15 point lead with three and a half minutes to play against Illinois with the Final Four on the line? How could Arizona go into Lawrence, Kansas in mid-January and blow out the top ranked Jayhawks in the second half -- and then not beat them with a Final Four on the line when they met again in California? Clearly that's on the coach simply not knowing how to coach, or make adjustments, or handle a lead. Clearly Arizona should've quite when they were ahead with Lute and fired him after he "choked" in 2001. Don't give me those lame excuses about Arenas being hurt and Walton with a broken thumb.

[PHXCATS]

It has been ten years. At some point it is either Miller isnt the man to get us to a title or Miller is cursed. Notice how I never said Fire Miller now. But we cant go 30 years without a final four either

The same logic you're applying to Miller you could easily apply to Lute. You know that don't you?

How could Lute not make the Final Four in '98 against a slow and plodding Utah team. How could every player from the '97 National Championship team not be able to knock down open shots against Utah's gimmick defense? How could Arizona blow a 15 point lead with three and a half minutes to play against Illinois with the Final Four on the line? How could Arizona go into Lawrence, Kansas in mid-January and blow out the top ranked Jayhawks in the second half -- and then not beat them with a Final Four on the line when they met again in California? Clearly that's on the coach simply not knowing how to coach, or make adjustments, or handle a lead. Clearly Arizona should've quite when they were ahead with Lute and fired him after he "choked" in 2001. Don't give me those lame excuses about Arenas being hurt and Walton with a broken thumb.

You know Lute made a final four before he was at Arizona ten years right?

[zonagrad]

It has been ten years. At some point it is either Miller isnt the man to get us to a title or Miller is cursed. Notice how I never said Fire Miller now. But we cant go 30 years without a final four either

The same logic you're applying to Miller you could easily apply to Lute. You know that don't you?

How could Lute not make the Final Four in '98 against a slow and plodding Utah team. How could every player from the '97 National Championship team not be able to knock down open shots against Utah's gimmick defense? How could Arizona blow a 15 point lead with three and a half minutes to play against Illinois with the Final Four on the line? How could Arizona go into Lawrence, Kansas in mid-January and blow out the top ranked Jayhawks in the second half -- and then not beat them with a Final Four on the line when they met again in California? Clearly that's on the coach simply not knowing how to coach, or make adjustments, or handle a lead. Clearly Arizona should've quite when they were ahead with Lute and fired him after he "choked" in 2001. Don't give me those lame excuses about Arenas being hurt and Walton with a broken thumb.

You know Lute made a final four before he was at Arizona ten years right?

Lute's Final Four at Iowa is of zero value to Arizona fans. Do they hang Iowa's Final Four banner at McKale Center?

[dmjcat]

I think the decision point to fire Miller has sailed. It sailed last March after the UA decided to stand behind Miller in the face of the FBI allegations. There was, IMO, a rational argument to
be made that parting ways with Miller and self sanctioning would have been the best way to get ahead of looming NCAA punishment.

Firing a head coach (at AZ) that just pulled in a #1 ranked recruiting class would be INSANE. There is ZERO guarantee that we would be able to find a better coach.

Now if the NCAA drops multi-year sanctions on the UA in the off-season and the #1 ranked class dissolves like cardboard in the rain........that would be a different story. But thats a different bridge to cross and we are not there yet.

Happy New Year Everyone

[PHXCATS]

It has been ten years. At some point it is either Miller isnt the man to get us to a title or Miller is cursed. Notice how I never said Fire Miller now. But we cant go 30 years without a final four either

The same logic you're applying to Miller you could easily apply to Lute. You know that don't you?

How could Lute not make the Final Four in '98 against a slow and plodding Utah team. How could every player from the '97 National Championship team not be able to knock down open shots against Utah's gimmick defense? How could Arizona blow a 15 point lead with three and a half minutes to play against Illinois with the Final Four on the line? How could Arizona go into Lawrence, Kansas in mid-January and blow out the top ranked Jayhawks in the second half -- and then not beat them with a Final Four on the line when they met again in California? Clearly that's on the coach simply not knowing how to coach, or make adjustments, or handle a lead. Clearly Arizona should've quite when they were ahead with Lute and fired him after he "choked" in 2001. Don't give me those lame excuses about Arenas being hurt and Walton with a broken thumb.

You know Lute made a final four before he was at Arizona ten years right?

Lute's Final Four at Iowa is of zero value to Arizona fans. Do they hang Iowa's Final Four banner at McKale Center?

Lute's final fours
79-his 6th season at Iowa
88-his 5th season at Arizona
94- his 11th season at Arizona
97-his 14th season at Arizona
01-his 18th season at Arizona

Try again bud. Miller has been here ten years and has zero. I am giving him four more chances before pulling the plug on him. The same timeframe that Lute got a title and three final fours and twice as long as any current t blue blood program's current coach's drought

[zonagrad]

2-If Sumlin can average a top five recruiting class in the nation for a few years I will hold him to the same standard for making the CFP

LOL! Has any AZ football coach in the history of the school recruited at that level? No. It's a lame proposition.

Let's not mince words: our hoops program is elite, our football program is not.

Yes our basketball program is so the goals and expectations and standards are different than football. That's the only point I was making.

I have defended Miller hard since this bullshit MSPN stuff happened but he needs to make a final four in the next few years or be shown the door

So if Sean Miller leads Arizona to Pac 12 regular season & conference tournament titles for 3 straight years beginning in 2019-20 and makes it to the Elite 8 twice and Sweet 16 once, you're for firing him? Really? You'd fire a coach just because he didn't get to a final four but excelled in every other metric? Well good fucking luck finding a replacement coach who's worth a shit who would leave a good job to accept an all or nothing position at Arizona. Think about what you're saying. You're in the Twilight Zone.

Rinse and repeat. I bet you were excited as hell when Tomey was fired and Livengood hired Mackovic.

[PHXCATS]

Yeah way to not address my points. Lute was able to get it done. Every other coach at an elite program gets it done and got it done before ten years. Cant want or say UA is elite then not hold yourself to elite standards.

Yes if Miller wins the PAC12 in 2020 2021 and 2022 and even loses on a buzzer beater in the elite 8 all three those years I still fire him. As Kenny said at some point it isnt just bad luck anymore. Unless Miller is truly the unlikeliest man ever.

Can I buy one of your 2014 regular season title tshirts from you?

[legallykenny]

It has been ten years. At some point it is either Miller isnt the man to get us to a title or Miller is cursed. Notice how I never said Fire Miller now. But we cant go 30 years without a final four either

The same logic you're applying to Miller you could easily apply to Lute. You know that don't you?

How could Lute not make the Final Four in '98 against a slow and plodding Utah team. How could every player from the '97 National Championship team not be able to knock down open shots against Utah's gimmick defense? How could Arizona blow a 15 point lead with three and a half minutes to play against Illinois with the Final Four on the line? How could Arizona go into Lawrence, Kansas in mid-January and blow out the top ranked Jayhawks in the second half -- and then not beat them with a Final Four on the line when they met again in California? Clearly that's on the coach simply not knowing how to coach, or make adjustments, or handle a lead. Clearly Arizona should've quite when they were ahead with Lute and fired him after he "choked" in 2001. Don't give me those lame excuses about Arenas being hurt and Walton with a broken thumb.

Three year after that '98 game, Lute was in the NC game.
Three year after the '05 meltdown, Lute was retiring and we all knew the best days were well behind us anyway.
Three years after the Dekker explosion, Sean was losing in the first round to a mid-major in a game that wasn't even competitive.

So now we're giving out mid-year recruiting titles? Are they hanging those up in the rafters?
6 of the top 11 prospects haven't signed yet. I don't think we're in on any of them. Even if the current class lands on campus, we won't win the mythical recruiting title this year.

[zonagrad]

Yeah way to not address my points. Lute was able to get it done. Every other coach at an elite program gets it done and got it done before ten years. Cant want or say UA is elite then not hold yourself to elite standards.

Yes if Miller wins the PAC12 in 2020 2021 and 2022 and even loses on a buzzer beater in the elite 8 all three those years I still fire him. As Kenny said at some point it isnt just bad luck anymore. Unless Miller is truly the unlikeliest man ever.

Can I buy one of your 2014 regular season title tshirts from you?

I have no doubt you were on the Lute bashing bandwagon following the '93 loss to Santa Clara.

And who would take the Arizona job if they fired Sean Miller following 3 straight Elite 8 losses? Surely not a proven winner.

[PHXCATS]

So about your regular season title tshirts?

[zonagrad]

So about your regular season title tshirts?

I'll take 3. I'm not an entitled fan like those at UCLA. I'll always want Final Fours. But I'm smart enough to appreciate the reality of the situation and thankful enough not to bitch about not getting the largest piece of cake at my birthday party.

[sirhamsalot]

I just want to say I'm on the Sean Miller bandwagon with no intentions of bailing.

It's easy in hindsight to find all the flaws of CSM teams and his "failure" to reach the Final Four so far. We've encountered injuries, missed open shots, bad calls, poor defense, lack of offense. We've dealt with significant roster turnover. We have encountered: a player shot, suspended for sexual assault, suspended for PED use, a key player's broken foot mid-season, a key player's broken foot to begin the year. Every year there is a different flaw that prevents us from breaking through. Something that has plagued us most recently is our inability to dominate a zone defense and unwillingness to run a zone defense. This is the most frustrating thing to watch. You know it's coming, but there is nothing you can do to stop it. I just want to see us turn the corner where we are able to penetrate a zone and get a few easy buckets at the rim, or drive, dish and hit the open 3. When we encounter a hot team like Wisconsin or Buffalo that can't seem to miss, I pray that CSM would slip into a zone defense to switch things up. Those are the 2 flaws I see exposed year in and year out, and I believe once we break through in these 2 areas, we will see CSM break through to the Final Four.

It seems like every year we are just on the cusp of breaking through. We don't have that feeling this year, but we might have if not for the false ESPN reporting. CSM would have weathered the FBI storm, and reloaded our roster like every other year if not for that. CSM is building a roster for the future and I am excited for what next year's class brings. We don't get to hang any recruiting banners, but it sure builds excitement and expectations for a special season. We should have a roster with experience and athleticism that will hopefully be balanced on offense and defense. When you look at every national champion in recent history, balance is the key. We should have everything needed to build a championship quality roster, but if we can't beat a zone, or refuse to play a zone I feel our season will be doomed. Even with that said, I am optimistic for the future, and can't wait for the best coach to have not yet reach a final four finally break through.

[zonagrad]

I just want to say I'm on the Sean Miller bandwagon with no intentions of bailing.

It's easy in hindsight to find all the flaws of CSM teams and his "failure" to reach the Final Four so far. We've encountered injuries, missed open shots, bad calls, poor defense, lack of offense. We've dealt with significant roster turnover. We have encountered: a player shot, suspended for sexual assault, suspended for PED use, a key player's broken foot mid-season, a key player's broken foot to begin the year. Every year there is a different flaw that prevents us from breaking through. Something that has plagued us most recently is our inability to dominate a zone defense and unwillingness to run a zone defense. This is the most frustrating thing to watch. You know it's coming, but there is nothing you can do to stop it. I just want to see us turn the corner where we are able to penetrate a zone and get a few easy buckets at the rim, or drive, dish and hit the open 3. When we encounter a hot team like Wisconsin or Buffalo that can't seem to miss, I pray that CSM would slip into a zone defense to switch things up. Those are the 2 flaws I see exposed year in and year out, and I believe once we break through in these 2 areas, we will see CSM break through to the Final Four.

It seems like every year we are just on the cusp of breaking through. We don't have that feeling this year, but we might have if not for the false ESPN reporting. CSM would have weathered the FBI storm, and reloaded our roster like every other year if not for that. CSM is building a roster for the future and I am excited for what next year's class brings. We don't get to hang any recruiting banners, but it sure builds excitement and expectations for a special season. We should have a roster with experience and athleticism that will hopefully be balanced on offense and defense. When you look at every national champion in recent history, balance is the key. We should have everything needed to build a championship quality roster, but if we can't beat a zone, or refuse to play a zone I feel our season will be doomed. Even with that said, I am optimistic for the future, and can't wait for the best coach to have not yet reach a final four finally break through.

A good point guard who can pass and score solves a lot problems from a zone defense. Arizona will be much better equipped next season.

[prh]

How many of you would trade the last 10 years for Loyola Chicago's last 10 years?

[zonagrad]

How many of you would trade the last 10 years for Loyola Chicago's last 10 years?

Bingo.

[Chicat]

How many of you would trade the last 10 years for Loyola Chicago's last 10 years?

That’s a fantastic question for those putting ridiculous demands on Sean Miller.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Clearly some people would. And there is no way to have a discussion with that viewpoint. It’s just Mars and Venus.

I’d be much more interested in the basketball smart people going into the details of what they see to be the flawed Miller approach. I’m still hoping somebody has access to advanced stats that actually put metrics to the eyeball supposition that Arizona does worse against the zone than most other teams. I did hear one announcer say that Miller said we face more zone than most other teams (because of Ayton and poor shooting in prior years). I’d also be interested to hear the actual evidence that Miller puts restraints on players and doesn’t “let them play.” Once I started hearing that criticism (which started not coincidentally when we started having trouble in the tourney), I started paying attention to Miller on the sidelines more to see if I could observe anything to support this argument. I’ve never seen him hold up his hands and tell a ball handler to throttle back except to take a last shot of half or game. In fact, the only thing like this that I’ve seen is Miller urging the ball handler onward after securing a rebound. Is this restraining thing done during practice or timeouts? Do we feel that Brandon Williams has shackles put on him? I’m open and curious to hear how this practically plays out. There is no doubt that Miller has had more success on the defensive side (though less so lately) than on the offensive side. But let’s not forget that during the Elite 8 runs we had Top 10-20 offenses.

[Newportcat]

Clearly Miller sells kids on being the opposite of what his detractors view are his flaws

Nico is not coming here to be in shackles or play in a bad offensive system

We also had a top 15 offense last year too

[Newportcat]

Also the one thing that is clear to me, is the people on the side of getting rid of Miller sooner rather then later or how he is the Rot in this program or he has underachieved have zero context or knowledge for how athletic department works and where we stand right now.

Because if you did, you would know our department is basically fucked financially.

We have a shit apparel deal until 2024 or 2025 that is grossly under paying us with Nike
We have a shit conference distributing far less money to teams then the SEC or BIG 10
We have a shit football program stuck with with a poor coach who has generated zero momentum for fans to buy tickets even after prices were slashed. You could get season tickets for 7 games this year for between $70 to $150 in a lot of the stadium
We are in a metropolitan area that is just now recovering from the 2007 economic crash and is still not doing that great
We have exhausted all means of generating revenues out of basketball program outside of maybe adding a couple luxury boxes at mckale. Outside of that, the well is dry for options
We have tapped out all wealthy alums over the past 7-10 years. The Stevens family and the Davis family aren’t bailing us out again.
We have larger amounts of debt we have taken on to make sure our facilities aren’t terrible so more free cash goes to pay that then ever before

We will probably have to go through another football coaching buyout and search in the next 3-4 years which we currently have no money for. We didn’t have the money to buy out Marcel Yates $500k contract for next year and hire a new DC. Think about that. $500k. That’s 80% less then the salary of the LSU DC.

We can’t pay anywhere close to duke or Kentucky pricing anymore for head coaches. Both those guys make double what Miller makes. Heaven knows we can’t pay market for assistant coaches hence why Book was taking money. Only made $250k a year.

So until they arrest Miller so we can fire him for cause, the haters better realize we are riding with Miller because we have no other options. We just don’t have any money and where Miller has been very smart, the big donors love him.

You can have the opinion Miller has underachieved but understand unless he is arrested we are riding with him regardless so you better pray your opinion of him was wrong

[ByJoveByJingle]

Thanks, Obama! Err . . . I mean, Fuck Larry Scott!

[zonagrad]

Clearly some people would. And there is no way to have a discussion with that viewpoint. It’s just Mars and Venus.

I’d be much more interested in the basketball smart people going into the details of what they see to be the flawed Miller approach. I’m still hoping somebody has access to advanced stats that actually put metrics to the eyeball supposition that Arizona does worse against the zone than most other teams. I did hear one announcer say that Miller said we face more zone than most other teams (because of Ayton and poor shooting in prior years). I’d also be interested to hear the actual evidence that Miller puts restraints on players and doesn’t “let them play.” Once I started hearing that criticism (which started not coincidentally when we started having trouble in the tourney), I started paying attention to Miller on the sidelines more to see if I could observe anything to support this argument. I’ve never seen him hold up his hands and tell a ball handler to throttle back except to take a last shot of half or game. In fact, the only thing like this that I’ve seen is Miller urging the ball handler onward after securing a rebound. Is this restraining thing done during practice or timeouts? Do we feel that Brandon Williams has shackles put on him? I’m open and curious to hear how this practically plays out. There is no doubt that Miller has had more success on the defensive side (though less so lately) than on the offensive side. But let’s not forget that during the Elite 8 runs we had Top 10-20 offenses.

I consider myself to be fairly basketball smart. If you look at the 2014 loss to Wisconsin, it’s fair to say Ashley’s absence was critical offensively. Aaron Gordon was too raw to score consistently and RHJ was never and never will be a perimeter threat. With Ashley, Arizona had a player who could keep defenders honest and open the lane for Nick Johnson or Gordon to attack the rim.

The following year, Wisconsin just played out of their minds. Shooting 10-12 from deep in the second half of a game is an incredible stat. I’m amazed Arizona only lost by 7.

The last two years our lack of a point guard killed us. It’s really that simple. Driving lanes were available with so much attention paid to Ayton, Trier and Alkins. But a 5’9” point guard who can’t finish at the rim or create his own shot was always our Achilles. And if a few players like Ayton or Trier have an off night, someone needed to pick up the slack and take advantage of opportunities. PJC was never capable of doing that. I doubt Miller would ever publicly say so, but he had to be kicking himself to have a unicorn like Markannen and Ayton but waste it with no point guard.

[PHXCATS]

Cant wait for the excuses to end

[Chicat]

Cant wait for the excuses to end

It’s been noted that you won’t answer the Loyola-Chicago question because you’re an intellectually dishonest troll.