Blowout Losses

[97cats]

there has been a downward trajectory in the program since the Wichita State manhandling on March 17, 2016.

while that loss was only by 10 points, it looked worse, hurt worse, and felt worse - these types of losses were almost non-existent up to this point in Sean Miller's tenure at Arizona.

Coach Miller and the Arizona Wildcats have suffered thirteen loses by 15+ points since becoming the head man in April 2009.

to put it into context, ive highlighted all thirteen of the 15+ blowouts, including the NCAA's for thought.

four of those came in Miller's first season, a wash, and three in his second - the other six, in the last three seasons with five of those in the last year and a half

four came in Coach Miller's first season - full immunity

63-46 @ San Diego State Dec 12, 2009
99-69 vs BYU Dec 28, 2009
78-60 @ Washington State Feb 6, 2010
95-71 @ Cal Feb 25 2010

three came the following season, Miller's second in Tucson - still tons of rope here and the end result was a thrashing of Duke in Anaheim and an Elite Eight loss to Kemba Walker

87-65 vs BYU Dec 11, 2010
85-98 @ Washington Jan 20, 2011
71-49 @ UCLA Feb 26, 2011

Miller's third year (11-12) netted zero 15+ point loses

Millers Fourth (12-13) netted zero 15+ point losses

Miller's fifth (13-14) netted zero 15+ point losses

Miller's sixth (14-15) netted zero 15+ losses

Miller's seventh (15-16) netted zero 15+ point losses

this is where things slowly begin to change - Arizona seems helpless, listless and exposed at the hands of Wichita State getting manhandled 65-55 in the 2016 NCAA Tournaments first round

one in Miler's eighth (16-17) at Oregon where the ducks pressured and spread the Wildcats out while making 16 of 25 three pointers

85-58 @ Oregon Feb 4, 2017

Miller's ninth season (17-18) netted two 15+ point losses, one being the embarrassment to Buffalo in the NCAA Tournament, where Arizona again seems listless and unable to generate any resistance and fight, almost laying down in an embarrassing thrashing for the whole country to see

89-64 vs Purdue Nov 24, 2017
89-68 vs Buffalo March 15, 2018

Miller's tenth (18-19) has already netted three

91-74 vs Gonzaga Nov 20, 2018
73-57 vs Auburn Noc 21, 2018
80-57 vs USC Jan 24, 2019

the trend is alarmimg, not just the score, but the way the team loses and how they react to the situations - players have changed, but the script reads the same to my eyes.

in almost every one of the games listed above, the team seemed to quit and at most go through the motions, almost like they were defeated before playing, even looking as if they didnt care.

circumstances effect all programs, we focus internally due to the connection, so we play victim, but there are injuries, defections, suspensions, and obstacles for all programs.

one or two thrashings over a few year period is acceptable - its happens to every school, hell UNC just got waxed at home.

however, it is now becoming a trend and whatever the meaning or correlation it has my attention.

i stated on this board before the first game i believed this years team would struggle in the back half of conf play, especially on the road and ultimately miss the NCAA Tournament.

i did not however expect a 23 point loss at USC with the team basically not caring and giving up...but i've seen this movie recently before unfortunately, so shame on me.

what hurts the most, i suspect this wont be the last 15+ point blowout loss this season for Sean Miller and his Arizona Wildcats

[PHXCATS]

Couple points, this year the Gonzaga game was in control until Jeter fouled out.

I also think this is the last such loss this year

[Spaceman Spiff]

As always, I post with all due respect to your position on this board.

I disagree a bit. The game at Oregon, I have never seen a game I'd be more inclined to write off as a fluke. The way they blazed us with 3's in the first half, any Arizona team would have been blitzed. Any other college team would have been whipped. It was a crazy outlier.

I agree culture decayed into last year. I think it is very fair to say last year's team would fold if pushed hard enough.

This year, we've flipped the script. We fight all the time, but the talent level isn't there. Zaga and Auburn were just better and wore us down. SC, we got gashed on the boards without Jeter and had the worst shooting night an Arizona team has had under Miller.

I don't classify this as a trend because I actually think our culture is better this year and on an upswing. We just lack talent, but that's because the FBI/ESPN debacle gutted us.

[RawleArenas]

You make some good points regarding the blowouts, but I look at it a little differently. Pre-FBI, there were hardly ever games where we would lose by more than 5 or 6 points. I think the problems originate from a couple of things: one, Miller had to scramble to put together the class he has now which means that the preferred personnel he usually works with is not there. Secondly, the pressure of the whole mess had an effect on the team's morale, showing up in the Buffalo game where the whole world was rooting against us (and they were a good team that shot well),

Going forward I don't expect that to happen. But I'm more surprised that fans didn't expect any hiccups after losing Akot and Jeter. To piggyback off of Spaceman, I'm pretty confident that going forward we will see a continuation of the effort that we have been accustomed to.

[Chicat]

If culture or attitude are a true culprit, then it may be because there is no one on staff who was a player back in the day when a loss at home or a blowout to a rival had the kids crying in the locker room afterward like a relative had just died.

Does losing at home or getting blown out matter to this team?

[ByJoveByJingle]

Yeah, I don’t think it’s accurate or fair to depict the two losses in Maui in the same way as this USC loss, or frankly many of the other blowout losses. Those were two Top 10 teams that we either led well into the second half or were at least in close contact with until the wheels came off late in the game. That’s fundamentally a different scenario than having your heart ripped out by Buffalo or USC. I didn’t see the USC game, so I can’t really comment but from the game tracker it looks like we got manhandled from the get-go. Which is undeniably embarrassing. I’m just not sure that there is any deep wisdom here beyond the fact that Miller’s first team sucked, and this team sucks . . . and the middle years were the zenith of the program thus far. Anybody who thought that this team was going to be vintage good was fooling themselves. I knew Coleman in Maui was fool’s gold. We don’t have the horses and too many key components of the team are somebody else’s castoffs. Next year will be telling. If this continues next year, then Houston, we have a problem.

[97cats]

As always, I post with all due respect to your position on this board.

I disagree a bit. The game at Oregon, I have never seen a game I'd be more inclined to write off as a fluke. The way they blazed us with 3's in the first half, any Arizona team would have been blitzed. Any other college team would have been whipped. It was a crazy outlier.

I agree culture decayed into last year. I think it is very fair to say last year's team would fold if pushed hard enough.

This year, we've flipped the script. We fight all the time, but the talent level isn't there. Zaga and Auburn were just better and wore us down. SC, we got gashed on the boards without Jeter and had the worst shooting night an Arizona team has had under Miller.

I don't classify this as a trend because I actually think our culture is better this year and on an upswing. We just lack talent, but that's because the FBI/ESPN debacle gutted us.

thx for posting i appreciate you taking the time to articulate your point, but i view your reasons more as excuses...whenever we focus on what we cant control as reasons for why things happen they feel like a crutch to me......and last night looked and felt a lot more to me like Buffalo than @ Oregon.

***for note, in the OP, i sited Oregon getting hot from distance as the precursor to why that game got out of control - but there is a part Arizona and its entire staff played in getting to that point, more than your recognizing, IMO.

[Spaceman Spiff]

If culture or attitude are a true culprit, then it may be because there is no one on staff who was a player back in the day when a loss at home or a blowout to a rival had the kids crying in the locker room afterward like a relative had just died.

Does losing at home or getting blown out matter to this team?

I don't know, man. Reggie Geary would qualify like that, and in 08-09, we lost by 13 and 16 points, had a 3 game losing streak and a 4 game losing streak and lost at home.

Geary was part of the good days. Stuff just happens.

[RawleArenas]

It seems that we're seeing what it feels like to be the rest of the teams in the Pac 12.

[catgrad97]

As always, I post with all due respect to your position on this board.

I disagree a bit. The game at Oregon, I have never seen a game I'd be more inclined to write off as a fluke. The way they blazed us with 3's in the first half, any Arizona team would have been blitzed. Any other college team would have been whipped. It was a crazy outlier.

I agree culture decayed into last year. I think it is very fair to say last year's team would fold if pushed hard enough.

This year, we've flipped the script. We fight all the time, but the talent level isn't there. Zaga and Auburn were just better and wore us down. SC, we got gashed on the boards without Jeter and had the worst shooting night an Arizona team has had under Miller.

I don't classify this as a trend because I actually think our culture is better this year and on an upswing. We just lack talent, but that's because the FBI/ESPN debacle gutted us.

thx for posting i appreciate you taking the time to articulate your point, but i view your reasons more as excuses...whenever we focus on what we cant control as reasons for why things happen they feel like a crutch to me......and last night looked and felt a lot more to me like Buffalo than @ Oregon.

***for note, in the OP, i sited Oregon getting hot from distance as the precursor to why that game got out of control - but there is a part Arizona and its entire staff played in getting to that point, more than your recognizing, IMO.

Would you say the same thing about the second Wisconsin loss in the Elite Eight, then, and how the Badgers went nuts from deep?

Not trying to prove a point either way, but just asking. Because I'd like to know myself why this program has so many Jimmer Fredette-type losses in which someone gets hot from deep and is just allowed to keep going off and bury our hopes.

I get a feeling a similar type of loss is going to end this team's season, wherever it happens to be. Players, low on talent or not, aren't getting the push or challenge they need to in some way. There is some dimensionality lacking in the coaching that I just can't put my finger on.

[Longhorned]

Floor leadership from the point guard position. Lyons provided a semblance of it. Kadeem didn't it, most especially when he got rattled in Providence against Wichita State. And right through today, Arizona still doesn't have it. Together with a lack of overall talent and your best team defender being out, that will get you blown out. Not having a point guard falls on Miller, complications aside from the Book situation.

[RawleArenas]

I think not having a point guard falls on growing pains.

[97cats]

Floor leadership from the point guard position. Lyons provided a semblance of it. Kadeem didn't it, most especially when he got rattled in Providence against Wichita State. And right through today, Arizona still doesn't have it. Together with a lack of overall talent and your best team defender being out, that will get you blown out. Not having a point guard falls on Miller, complications aside from the Book situation.

sadly, not cause i agree with you, but sadly i agree with the content of your post.

[97cats]

Would you say the same thing about the second Wisconsin loss in the Elite Eight, then, and how the Badgers went nuts from deep?

Arizona lost to Wisconsin 85-78 ...even in spite of the crazy day for the Badgers Arizona was right in that game - the point of this thread is Blowout Loses (15+) or Bad Loses...not hard fought tough losses in the NCAA Elite Eight by seven points

and further, what im trying to illustrate, since that second season you reference, early in Miller's years, comped years if you will, Ariona had five straight years with no such losses and now 6 in the last two and a half.

thats the most alarming to me

Not trying to prove a point either way, but just asking. Because I'd like to know myself why this program has so many Jimmer Fredette-type losses in which someone gets hot from deep and is just allowed to keep going off and bury our hopes.

there is this but there is also the manhandling that i see more - 5 of the last six of these loses Arizona was pushed around and outmatched more than a hot fire from Fredette...that was alomost 10 years ago

I get a feeling a similar type of loss is going to end this team's season, wherever it happens to be. Players, low on talent or not, aren't getting the push or challenge they need to in some way. There is some dimensionality lacking in the coaching that I just can't put my finger on.

perhaps yes thank you for responding

[RawleArenas]

I know no one wants to hear this, but has anyone considered the fact that we have had the most blowout losses since Book left the program. He was an incredible buffer between CSM and the players. Don't think we really have anyone on staff who fulfills the same kind of role he had.

[Spaceman Spiff]

As always, I post with all due respect to your position on this board.

I disagree a bit. The game at Oregon, I have never seen a game I'd be more inclined to write off as a fluke. The way they blazed us with 3's in the first half, any Arizona team would have been blitzed. Any other college team would have been whipped. It was a crazy outlier.

I agree culture decayed into last year. I think it is very fair to say last year's team would fold if pushed hard enough.

This year, we've flipped the script. We fight all the time, but the talent level isn't there. Zaga and Auburn were just better and wore us down. SC, we got gashed on the boards without Jeter and had the worst shooting night an Arizona team has had under Miller.

I don't classify this as a trend because I actually think our culture is better this year and on an upswing. We just lack talent, but that's because the FBI/ESPN debacle gutted us.

thx for posting i appreciate you taking the time to articulate your point, but i view your reasons more as excuses...whenever we focus on what we cant control as reasons for why things happen they feel like a crutch to me......and last night looked and felt a lot more to me like Buffalo than @ Oregon.

***for note, in the OP, i sited Oregon getting hot from distance as the precursor to why that game got out of control - but there is a part Arizona and its entire staff played in getting to that point, more than your recognizing, IMO.

Oregon is a great example of why I don't think it's necessarily an excuse. At Oregon, Trier wasn't back. Markannen got in immediate foul trouble. Oregon was out of their mind.

That stuff just adds up. I won't opine on SC because I didn't get to see enough of it to feel like I can, but a lot of those factors were there. Aberrant shooting. Jeter out.

I think the will and heart stuff gets overrated sometimes. Straight talent and luck plays a role. We lack talent this year, so luck and absences hit us that much harder than normal. I did see Zaga and Auburn, and we played our asses off in both those games.

I remember you posting about the wear down effect of size and talent with the 13-14 team. It is real, but this year, we got worn down by Zaga and Auburn.

[RawleArenas]

I know no one wants to hear this, but has anyone considered the fact that we have had the most blowout losses since Book left the program. He was an incredible buffer between CSM and the players. He really helped to boost the mojo of the team, especially with players that were high maintenance. Don't think we really have anyone on staff who fulfills the same kind of role he had.

[DrWildcat]

So whats the deal? Do we use the excuses (Injuries, Book, FBI etc), which to me are pretty legitimate, or blame the coach?

[PHXCATS]

I know no one wants to hear this, but has anyone considered the fact that we have had the most blowout losses since Book left the program. He was an incredible buffer between CSM and the players. He really helped to boost the mojo of the team, especially with players that were high maintenance. Don't think we really have anyone on staff who fulfills the same kind of role he had.

Well Book should not have taken bribes or given away inside information.

Are you saying Miller needs a hype man and a coach to tuck the players in?

[RawleArenas]

Book was a little more to the program than what you're describing. But to undervalue the impact of soft skills and building team morale when dealing with athletes (especially high level ones) shows a little bit of naivete.

Miller's not a machine. Some things he is responsible for, but not the things that most posters rant about. I do have issue with certain things he does, but they are minor and do not impact my estimation of his performance as a coach.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I know no one wants to hear this, but has anyone considered the fact that we have had the most blowout losses since Book left the program. He was an incredible buffer between CSM and the players. He really helped to boost the mojo of the team, especially with players that were high maintenance. Don't think we really have anyone on staff who fulfills the same kind of role he had.

Is this about how our players are less motivated playing for free than they were on Book's stipend?






JOKING. JOKING.

In seriousness, I do think there's some degree of psychic cloud over our program the last two years. The FBI investigation changed Arizona basketball. I am not close enough to know if that carried into the team or not, but it is completely noticeable in coaches, media and the local atmosphere.

There's just a dark cloud that didn't exist before September, 2017, when we had our day that will live in infamy. Since then, the shadow of the gallows seems to loom in the distance.

[Alieberman]

Lack of rescent blowout wins is also alarming (not including our piss poor OOC schedule)

[goslingswagg]

I think this is a worthwhile discussion, but I think the increase in blowout losses is due to 1) variance/chance and 2) a recruiting issue, which is obviously on Miller, but that has led to subpar PG play for the past few years and a lack of Miller-esque talent on the roster. This has been highlighted by players with minimal confidence, mental fortitude, swagger, whatever word you want to use but the last few years have been full of players that just aren't tough enough and don't give enough shits about the success of the team. I am hoping that next year, these types of players are all effectively rooted out of the program, and we are left with a tough but talented group that can take us back to the dominance of the earlier Miller days. This year, obviously the roster got blown up due to the FBI/ESPN situation, and the talent just isn't there. The success/failure of Miller's tenure basically comes down to next year and I'm nervous about that, but can't fault the amount of work that went into assembling this roster next year, and I'm ultimately confident that we will turn things around with this group next year.

[PHXCATS]

Lack of rescent blowout wins is also alarming (not including our piss poor OOC schedule)

Cats beat Colorado by 15 in the first half. In conference play I dont see slowing down in the 2nd half as much of an issue. Cal beat by 12 in first half and 10 in the second. Beat a hot Oregon State team by 11 in the first half as well

[Gladiator Cat]

To me as a longtime diehard fan, the Basketball program has just lost its luster, swag and preeminence. Its hasn't commanded a real profound presents of respect in the Blue-blood mantra or elite realm of college basketball for a number of years in my eyes. Maybe most of that was always overblown BS and fanatic wishful thinking of a small town program fan base that always wanted to be accepted as apart of the big-boys club.

I now view our program as good and solid at this stage of the Miller era which for me is OK as a narrative as reality at this stage in Millers tenure has more inline with the results that have been produced over the years. Solid, but unspectacular.

Alot of my feelings are subjective as is everyone's I suppose, and I realize they go strongly against the general raw raw grain here for sure, but in truth there's just been a smoldering underbelly of slight discontent, unease, disappointment systemically poor results for a number of years now and they tend to overtime build upon themselves and magnify all the warts that used to go unseen and unspoken about.

Personally I don't view the Arizona program as the mythical elite program I once did under Lute or at the beginning of Millers era even during the difficult transition. It just feels different now to me.

Furthermore I don't view Sean Miller, as I once did, as an elite level coach either (my interpretation). He's an insane recruiter that just appears to be missing the full package as the ultimate strategizing leader with a full array of intangibles.

As time has gone by my impression of him now is more centered on his traits that I consider to be "consistency" and "systems rigidity" but not a real profound elite level gamesmanship thinker that is often demonstrated by other well known critical thinking coaches who adapt, adjust and implement for ultimate success as an ongoing occurrence.

Bottom line and for a variety of reasons, some issues outside of the programs control and some internal issues that were mishandled internally have played a part. The recent crushing ESPN insanity has played a part, but there have been additional missteps along the way.

I mostly view the soap opera these days that has become Arizona Basketball as kind of a victim meme/narrative that lacks staying power and grows old quickly. We always as a fan base find a reason why its always someone else's fault as we consistently fail to meet lofty goals.

Numerous #1 recruiting classes aside over the years with multiple NBA'rs proliferating the roster for years further illustrates a disconnect, and exasperates an unease in the air with the program and Miller looking forward.

Sean is a spectacular recruiter to be sure, but the natives are grumbling with the fact that it never seems to culminate with bigger achievements of success. The caliber of players he recruits are not corresponding with result expectations whether fair or unfair.

Rightly or wrongly, I feel Miller is on an unacknowledged clock. Maybe its internally with himself or its externally by outside forces or a combination of both but the clock is ticking in my opinion.

Sean's got about 3-4 more years to grow, and expand his tutelage/coaching skills and adaptability and make a next level advance with his brand. If rigidity and stubbornness still rule the day with little success with the same results then nothing is off the table as a change of scenery is sometimes good for the soul.

[97cats]

over the last two and a half years Arizona has had six 15+ point loses (not double digit loses, there are several of those i didnt include) 15+ point loses...and, further, of those six, four of them were by 20+ points.

the previous five years Arizona had ZERO - to me that is interesting if nothing else and isnt just inclusive of talent or transfers or defections.

the number one pick in the NBA draft this season and an all-rookie team candidate participated in two of those blowouts one of which was in the NCAA Tournament

just something to consider

[Longhorned]

Yeah, blowouts are about talent differential, but also heart. A team needs a heart, and it's disconcerting that we haven't seen that in years.

In that Wichita State first round loss, Tarc asked his teammates, "Don't you have any pride?" He was talking about heart. And he knew what he was talking about, because Tarc had heart. The problem is that a team's heart isn't seated in its center. It's in its point guard, which is the centrifugal position from which the spirit pumps to every position on the floor.

A point guard takes his team into enemy territory and sets the tone, just like we see with all those other point guards like Fred Van Vleet who tear our point guards apart, and thereby rip away the foundations of the entire team's morale. Just like our point guards used to do to the other teams. Not just our NBA guys like Mighty Mouse and Mike Bibby, but also guys like Jason Gardner, who could go on the road and taunt the fans in a hostile arena. And the way TJ McConnell would guard the point of attack until everyone on the other team had rocks in their souls and would just kind of sink in the last two minutes of the game.

There was a quote from our point guard from the Buffalo game that showed he was basically done at halftime. Without a heart, you're going to get blown out sometimes. And against USC, there was no blood pumping. No life. No heart. Sorry, but that's where we are. I have hope for next year.

[rgdeuce]

Interesting stuff 97. I never looked at the "blowout" losses, but I posted about our program's trajectory/trending in one of the other threads.

[catgrad97]

Yes. The end-of-game trajectory in these losses (even second Wisky) is what concerns me.

The Great Wear Down is slowly slumping into the Terminal Tail Off.

[Postmaster]

I don’t think we have had a lockdown defender in some time.
IMO the Packline works better when there is a lockdown guy, or at least a guy who can clean up a mess at the rim.
There is so much motion in and out that inevitably someone gets open at the rim or open at the 3pt line. As the game goes to even more deep shots I feel the Packline will get more exposed.
If the opposition gets a hot shooter or has the horses to really exploit this, then we get whacked.
Heart is great, and required, but there is also the need to be able to stop the other team.

Or maybe it’s just that guy who cursed the team 15 years ago.

[Longhorned]

Doug? When does sevun end?

[Newportcat]

This is just me, and I respect 97cats a lot but I think this season means nothing. Nothing should be taken from it or gleemed from it. It will end soon and will probably be quickly forgotten. I view it as a giant redshirt year for the entire program.

Now, if this trend continues the next two years I will be concerned greatly.

[Postmaster]

Doug? When does sevun end?

Was that his name?
It was before I joined GAZC so I never really got whole story.

[UAEebs86]

UDug was his handle I think.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don’t think we have had a lockdown defender in some time.
IMO the Packline works better when there is a lockdown guy, or at least a guy who can clean up a mess at the rim.
There is so much motion in and out that inevitably someone gets open at the rim or open at the 3pt line. As the game goes to even more deep shots I feel the Packline will get more exposed.
If the opposition gets a hot shooter or has the horses to really exploit this, then we get whacked.
Heart is great, and required, but there is also the need to be able to stop the other team.

Or maybe it’s just that guy who cursed the team 15 years ago.

D really isn't our issue this year. We're 26th nationally in AdjD, even after the subpar play at SC.

Offensively, we're 134 in AdjO. That's the issue. A lot is just talent, IMO. BWill is our most dynamic offensive player, but he's young and inconsistent. Jeter is a post option only. When we need someone to make things happen...well, there's a reason Randolph has a green light despite poor shot selection. We need firepower in the worst way.

[Captain Obvious]

Lack of rescent blowout wins is also alarming (not including our piss poor OOC schedule)

This. Our cupcake OOC schedule has IMO left us unprepared for the rigors of the NCAA tournament. Couple that with an overall weak Pac 12 schedule most years and any team is vulnerable. I'd rather see an overall strong conference where we end up with 6 or 7 losses and enter the conference and NCAA tournament battle tested and able to actually compete against mid majors.

[Gladiator Cat]

Lack of rescent blowout wins is also alarming (not including our piss poor OOC schedule)

This. Our cupcake OOC schedule has IMO left us unprepared for the rigors of the NCAA tournament. Couple that with an overall weak Pac 12 schedule most years and any team is vulnerable. I'd rather see an overall strong conference where we end up with 6 or 7 losses and enter the conference and NCAA tournament battle tested and able to actually compete against mid majors.

I don't really understand why anyone would be overly concerned about the NCAA tournament this year. Even if we miraculously made it in I don't see anything in this teams make up that would validate a run past the first round.

There is a handful of mid-majors that would blow the door's completely off of this team.

This years team along with a horrendously bad PAC-12 is the worst of both worlds.

[MrMeow]

To me as a longtime diehard fan, the Basketball program has just lost its luster, swag and preeminence. Its hasn't commanded a real profound presents of respect in the Blue-blood mantra or elite realm of college basketball for a number of years in my eyes. Maybe most of that was always overblown BS and fanatic wishful thinking of a small town program fan base that always wanted to be accepted as apart of the big-boys club.

I now view our program as good and solid at this stage of the Miller era which for me is OK as a narrative as reality at this stage in Millers tenure has more inline with the results that have been produced over the years. Solid, but unspectacular.

Alot of my feelings are subjective as is everyone's I suppose, and I realize they go strongly against the general raw raw grain here for sure, but in truth there's just been a smoldering underbelly of slight discontent, unease, disappointment systemically poor results for a number of years now and they tend to overtime build upon themselves and magnify all the warts that used to go unseen and unspoken about.

Personally I don't view the Arizona program as the mythical elite program I once did under Lute or at the beginning of Millers era even during the difficult transition. It just feels different now to me.

Furthermore I don't view Sean Miller, as I once did, as an elite level coach either (my interpretation). He's an insane recruiter that just appears to be missing the full package as the ultimate strategizing leader with a full array of intangibles.

As time has gone by my impression of him now is more centered on his traits that I consider to be "consistency" and "systems rigidity" but not a real profound elite level gamesmanship thinker that is often demonstrated by other well known critical thinking coaches who adapt, adjust and implement for ultimate success as an ongoing occurrence.

Bottom line and for a variety of reasons, some issues outside of the programs control and some internal issues that were mishandled internally have played a part. The recent crushing ESPN insanity has played a part, but there have been additional missteps along the way.

I mostly view the soap opera these days that has become Arizona Basketball as kind of a victim meme/narrative that lacks staying power and grows old quickly. We always as a fan base find a reason why its always someone else's fault as we consistently fail to meet lofty goals.

Numerous #1 recruiting classes aside over the years with multiple NBA'rs proliferating the roster for years further illustrates a disconnect, and exasperates an unease in the air with the program and Miller looking forward.

Sean is a spectacular recruiter to be sure, but the natives are grumbling with the fact that it never seems to culminate with bigger achievements of success. The caliber of players he recruits are not corresponding with result expectations whether fair or unfair.

Rightly or wrongly, I feel Miller is on an unacknowledged clock. Maybe its internally with himself or its externally by outside forces or a combination of both but the clock is ticking in my opinion.

Sean's got about 3-4 more years to grow, and expand his tutelage/coaching skills and adaptability and make a next level advance with his brand. If rigidity and stubbornness still rule the day with little success with the same results then nothing is off the table as a change of scenery is sometimes good for the soul.

Miller is a control freak, and I don't look for that to change (leopard's spots). Drives me crazy how he parks his ass courtside to micro manage the team's every move. I can only imagine what that does to the kids.

The program has lost its luster for me too, but it's been a slow build, not just this shitty season ... cupcake OOC schedules, Miller's control needs, poor post season results.

Miller is no Lute.

[billk78]

There sure was a lack of urgency in the second half against USC (yes unfortunately I kept watching). There were times where it looked like the Cats could go on a run and at least make the game respectable. But then they just fell flat. Either they felt the game was already over, thought there was still enough time to overcome 19 points, or just didnt really care what the final outcome was.

At one point Justin Coleman turned to the team and said "it's okay" after a mistake. Well, it really wasn't OKAY. I understand not wanting to scold your teammates out in the open. But saying its okay to be getting destroyed and making mistakes as a PG and leader isn't the best look.

A couple of players who I did feel played with some urgency (even though their games might not have been perfect) were Ira lee and Alex Barcello (Yes Alex Barcello!!!). Lee was trying to get his teammates to wake the F up on numerous occasions and Barcello was diving on the floor and playing like the game meant everything. I agree Barcello isn't the best player but I've actually felt like the lineup played better with him on the floor the last two games. I do not know what's up with Coleman. In Maui he looked great...since then its been okay....okay isn't enough.

Another question mark is Brandon Williams. At times I feel like he's really into the game. And that he can be a leader and a guy to get the ball to with the game on the line. Other times he disappear a bit. His attitude isn't terrible (no PJC head down frown all game) but I think he's still trying to find his identity on the team. And as a freshman like that we need other guys to show some heart and fire. If that happens I think B-Will buys into it more. Still think he's going to be a great player for us.

I've pretty much given up on Randolph. Sorry. Not gonna crucify any Arizona players. But he just isn't consistent. Ready for the NBA I guess.

[billk78]

To me as a longtime diehard fan, the Basketball program has just lost its luster, swag and preeminence. Its hasn't commanded a real profound presents of respect in the Blue-blood mantra or elite realm of college basketball for a number of years in my eyes. Maybe most of that was always overblown BS and fanatic wishful thinking of a small town program fan base that always wanted to be accepted as apart of the big-boys club.

I now view our program as good and solid at this stage of the Miller era which for me is OK as a narrative as reality at this stage in Millers tenure has more inline with the results that have been produced over the years. Solid, but unspectacular.

Alot of my feelings are subjective as is everyone's I suppose, and I realize they go strongly against the general raw raw grain here for sure, but in truth there's just been a smoldering underbelly of slight discontent, unease, disappointment systemically poor results for a number of years now and they tend to overtime build upon themselves and magnify all the warts that used to go unseen and unspoken about.

Personally I don't view the Arizona program as the mythical elite program I once did under Lute or at the beginning of Millers era even during the difficult transition. It just feels different now to me.

Furthermore I don't view Sean Miller, as I once did, as an elite level coach either (my interpretation). He's an insane recruiter that just appears to be missing the full package as the ultimate strategizing leader with a full array of intangibles.

As time has gone by my impression of him now is more centered on his traits that I consider to be "consistency" and "systems rigidity" but not a real profound elite level gamesmanship thinker that is often demonstrated by other well known critical thinking coaches who adapt, adjust and implement for ultimate success as an ongoing occurrence.

Bottom line and for a variety of reasons, some issues outside of the programs control and some internal issues that were mishandled internally have played a part. The recent crushing ESPN insanity has played a part, but there have been additional missteps along the way.

I mostly view the soap opera these days that has become Arizona Basketball as kind of a victim meme/narrative that lacks staying power and grows old quickly. We always as a fan base find a reason why its always someone else's fault as we consistently fail to meet lofty goals.

Numerous #1 recruiting classes aside over the years with multiple NBA'rs proliferating the roster for years further illustrates a disconnect, and exasperates an unease in the air with the program and Miller looking forward.

Sean is a spectacular recruiter to be sure, but the natives are grumbling with the fact that it never seems to culminate with bigger achievements of success. The caliber of players he recruits are not corresponding with result expectations whether fair or unfair.

Rightly or wrongly, I feel Miller is on an unacknowledged clock. Maybe its internally with himself or its externally by outside forces or a combination of both but the clock is ticking in my opinion.

Sean's got about 3-4 more years to grow, and expand his tutelage/coaching skills and adaptability and make a next level advance with his brand. If rigidity and stubbornness still rule the day with little success with the same results then nothing is off the table as a change of scenery is sometimes good for the soul.

Miller is a control freak, and I don't look for that to change (leopard's spots). Drives me crazy how he parks his ass courtside to micro manage the team's every move. I can only imagine what that does to the kids.

The program has lost its luster for me too, but it's been a slow build, not just this shitty season ... cupcake OOC schedules, Miller's control needs, poor post season results.

Miller is no Lute.

We played Gonzaga, Auburn and Iowa State. All top 25. All good teams. I wouldn't necessarily say "cupcake". Maybe one other big matchhup later in OOC play would help. But this year would it make a difference? There's just no talent on this roster.

[billk78]

over the last two and a half years Arizona has had six 15+ point loses (not double digit loses, there are several of those i didnt include) 15+ point loses...and, further, of those six, four of them were by 20+ points.

the previous five years Arizona had ZERO - to me that is interesting if nothing else and isnt just inclusive of talent or transfers or defections.

the number one pick in the NBA draft this season and an all-rookie team candidate participated in two of those blowouts one of which was in the NCAA Tournament

just something to consider

Lots of good info as always 97. It sounds like you're blaming Miller for the blowouts. Is that the case? I feel like against USC there really wasn't much he could have done differently. No Jeter. Low IQ team. But if we are saying it's his fault because he just isn't recruiting the right players--or the right group of players--I can agree with that. Last year's class (of course no including Ayton) has been a complete letdown and don't compliment each other at all.

[RawleArenas]

This is actually one of the few things I can jump on board with. There's a much bigger discussion regarding highly rated players and how rankings can be misleading, but that's for another thread.

Miller's in a unique situation because he thrives off of blue collar players, but has the opportunity to recruit 5 stars. Sometimes they are one in the same like Rondae, Rawle and AG. But overall, I think the typical recruit comes in and treats the games like a beauty pageant (Kobi comes to mind), with defense as a secondary focus.

I think the fortunes of this team dramatically changed with the emergence of Randolph and Akot this year. They are talented, both fringe 5 stars, but seem to have a lack of maturity and IQ that's needed to maximize their God-given gifts. Regardless, Miller's figured out his mistakes and has corrected them bigly with next year's class.

[ChooChooCat]

Great thread 97. This is why next year is the ultimate make or break year for Sean Miller in regards to the opinions of his fanbase and honestly probably the donors.

Ultimately my biggest beef with Sean Miller is his roster make ups since the 2014-2015 season. Now there's things he can control (choosing Justin Simon and Allonzo Trier over Tyler Dorsey for instance or trying to force PJC to be your PG due to politics) and things he can't control (Ray Smith going from a sure fire NBA player to a 3 time ACL tear retiree), and ultimately you can only land who you can land. The real issue is he needs a particular type of player with a particular type of mindset or at least a player with an open mind to his coaching and it seems he seldom has added that guy to his roster since that last TJMC team. It's beyond frustrating to watch because he's incapable of motivating players who don't have that mindset to do what he wants them to do. Thankfully Nico and Green have that mindset and having your best players buy in is drastically important, so next year should be better, but man we will inevitably go through more years like we have recently with Miller as head coach and that is what is most frustrating. When it's good it's good, but when it's bad it's just pure shit.

[Postmaster]

But we could score last year and still got blown out, Spiff.

[Postmaster]

A lot of the players seem like guys who should be reserves for two years and then start in year 3. But that is not how college B-ball is anymore. Randolph looks, to me, like a guy whose brain and body are not quite in sync yet. He is a twig and I have to assume that he he is still growing and he will eventually find his groove.

I felt this about S Hill his first few years. He always tried to spin in lane and would lose the ball. Eventually his body caught up with his mind.

Sort of off topic, sorry.

[dmjcat]

There sure was a lack of urgency in the second half against USC (yes unfortunately I kept watching). There were times where it looked like the Cats could go on a run and at least make the game respectable. But then they just fell flat. Either they felt the game was already over, thought there was still enough time to overcome 19 points, or just didnt really care what the final outcome was.

At one point Justin Coleman turned to the team and said "it's okay" after a mistake. Well, it really wasn't OKAY. I understand not wanting to scold your teammates out in the open. But saying its okay to be getting destroyed and making mistakes as a PG and leader isn't the best look.

A couple of players who I did feel played with some urgency (even though their games might not have been perfect) were Ira lee and Alex Barcello (Yes Alex Barcello!!!). Lee was trying to get his teammates to wake the F up on numerous occasions and Barcello was diving on the floor and playing like the game meant everything. I agree Barcello isn't the best player but I've actually felt like the lineup played better with him on the floor the last two games. I do not know what's up with Coleman. In Maui he looked great...since then its been okay....okay isn't enough.

Another question mark is Brandon Williams. At times I feel like he's really into the game. And that he can be a leader and a guy to get the ball to with the game on the line. Other times he disappear a bit. His attitude isn't terrible (no PJC head down frown all game) but I think he's still trying to find his identity on the team. And as a freshman like that we need other guys to show some heart and fire. If that happens I think B-Will buys into it more. Still think he's going to be a great player for us.

I've pretty much given up on Randolph. Sorry. Not gonna crucify any Arizona players. But he just isn't consistent. Ready for the NBA I guess.

Ready for the NBA???

By that do you mean the Norwegian Basketball Assocation

BR has ZERO business even thinking about going pro.

[azcat49]

Tough thread to read. Have to wonder how much the turnover in the staff has impacted the program. Seems like the level of our assistant coaches is questionable

[billk78]

There sure was a lack of urgency in the second half against USC (yes unfortunately I kept watching). There were times where it looked like the Cats could go on a run and at least make the game respectable. But then they just fell flat. Either they felt the game was already over, thought there was still enough time to overcome 19 points, or just didnt really care what the final outcome was.

At one point Justin Coleman turned to the team and said "it's okay" after a mistake. Well, it really wasn't OKAY. I understand not wanting to scold your teammates out in the open. But saying its okay to be getting destroyed and making mistakes as a PG and leader isn't the best look.

A couple of players who I did feel played with some urgency (even though their games might not have been perfect) were Ira lee and Alex Barcello (Yes Alex Barcello!!!). Lee was trying to get his teammates to wake the F up on numerous occasions and Barcello was diving on the floor and playing like the game meant everything. I agree Barcello isn't the best player but I've actually felt like the lineup played better with him on the floor the last two games. I do not know what's up with Coleman. In Maui he looked great...since then its been okay....okay isn't enough.

Another question mark is Brandon Williams. At times I feel like he's really into the game. And that he can be a leader and a guy to get the ball to with the game on the line. Other times he disappear a bit. His attitude isn't terrible (no PJC head down frown all game) but I think he's still trying to find his identity on the team. And as a freshman like that we need other guys to show some heart and fire. If that happens I think B-Will buys into it more. Still think he's going to be a great player for us.

I've pretty much given up on Randolph. Sorry. Not gonna crucify any Arizona players. But he just isn't consistent. Ready for the NBA I guess.

Ready for the NBA???

By that do you mean the Norwegian Basketball Assocation

BR has ZERO business even thinking about going pro.

LOL I meant in is eyes/brain....not ours. He's trying to showcase himself.

[psiclist23]

Tough thread to read. Have to wonder how much the turnover in the staff has impacted the program. Seems like the level of our assistant coaches is questionable

ell last year we had a pretty good offensive minded asst.. Romar. Didn't seem to matter. It never did seem to me that he was contributing anything to the offense. I always thought that if Sean had just turned the offense over to Romar, and concentrated on defense, or recruiting, the season might have turned out a little differently.

I don't think Sean is doing much but what he wants to.

[Beachcat97]

Sorta looking like we may be headed to another example of this thread’s title.