Sean Miller

[tricat]

I really don’t think average fan thought Lute sucked. I think they were disappointed in first round exits after such great regular season performances

But by that point Lute had made two final fours too and done the miracle work of turning Arizona into a legit program. If a fan said they wanted to fire Lute you had a lot of Reasons why that is so stupid.

You either weren't around Tucson at the time or are remembering it with a tint of nostalgia. After '93 Arizona had a total of 3 NCAA tournament wins in the previous 4 seasons while being seeded 2, 2, 3, and 2. There was plenty of talk that the '88 run was a fluke, and that Lute's style could win in the regular season but couldn't handle the tournament. That didn't extend to wanting him fired, you're right, that kind of talk was restricted to the RiseandFire's of the world.

[Newportcat]

I really don’t think average fan thought Lute sucked. I think they were disappointed in first round exits after such great regular season performances

But by that point Lute had made two final fours too and done the miracle work of turning Arizona into a legit program. If a fan said they wanted to fire Lute you had a lot of Reasons why that is so stupid.

You either weren't around Tucson at the time or are remembering it with a tint of nostalgia. After '93 Arizona had a total of 3 NCAA tournament wins in the previous 4 seasons while being seeded 2, 2, 3, and 2. There was plenty of talk that the '88 run was a fluke, and that Lute's style could win in the regular season but couldn't handle the tournament. That didn't extend to wanting him fired, you're right, that kind of talk was restricted to the RiseandFire's of the world.

I wasn’t around but my family was and my great uncle was legendary for the shit he gave Greg Hansen for talking shit on Lute during this time. My great uncle helped ensure Lute was fully protected from any idiots even thinking he needed to be fired or let god. I think history has shown that Santa Clara team had a pretty good guard on it.

But keep in mind Lute did shift his strategy which lead to our run from 1994 through 2005 whem we were a truly elite program lead by very strong guard play and went away from towering plodding big guys

I am very sad there are students at U of A starting this fall who were not alive for the last time Arizona was in a Final Four.

I am not convinced Miller is the long term answer to get us back there

[MC1983]

Miller doesn’t leave Arizona unless fired or forced out which is basically the same thing. I don’t think either one of those is going to happen.

Miller would for sure leave if as good a job opened up on the east coast and they would hire him

I think you are confusing what you want with what he wants. He is here until Arizona don’t want him no more or has to fire him because of off court issues.

Miller is not getting fired or forced out anytime soon with the support he has from Cole & Jeannie Davis which in turn means he has full support from the athletic department unless a major smoking gun comes out which at this point Arizona athletics is convinced does not exist. Arizona athletics is also convinced we do not pay players so I take whatever they say with a grain of salt.

But to think Miller would not leave if given a great opportunity to is just very naive

I’m not sure Arizona athletics is convinced we don’t pay players it might just be they are convinced that there is no proof of it. I wouldn’t burn Miller if Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas and a whole lot more are doing it and have been for years and years. It actually kinda becomes part of the game if you ask me. If everyone is doing it than I wouldn’t blame Miller for playing the game just like the others.

If he is however on tape buying players than I will blame him for being stupid. It would than be his stupidity that Screwed us over.

[legallykenny]

I really don’t think average fan thought Lute sucked. I think they were disappointed in first round exits after such great regular season performances

But by that point Lute had made two final fours too and done the miracle work of turning Arizona into a legit program. If a fan said they wanted to fire Lute you had a lot of Reasons why that is so stupid.

You either weren't around Tucson at the time or are remembering it with a tint of nostalgia. After '93 Arizona had a total of 3 NCAA tournament wins in the previous 4 seasons while being seeded 2, 2, 3, and 2. There was plenty of talk that the '88 run was a fluke, and that Lute's style could win in the regular season but couldn't handle the tournament. That didn't extend to wanting him fired, you're right, that kind of talk was restricted to the RiseandFire's of the world.

But Lute changed his style.

Is Miller going to?

[zonagrad]

This year’s NCAA tournament is further proof that it’s insane to judge a coach or program solely on their tournament performance. Duke massively underachieved. Kentucky disappointed.

Auburn could’ve and should’ve been bounced by New Mexico State.

If a school is winning games and conference titles, it’s a sign of a healthy program. Tournament success is a crapshoot. Cincinnati is a perfect example.

Arizona will be a top 15 team next season. Depending on departures and injuries, UA should challenge for another PAC 12 title and a top 3 or 4 seed in March. After that, it’s all about matchups and luck. No amount of coaching can guarantee anything more.

[NYCat]

I really don’t think average fan thought Lute sucked. I think they were disappointed in first round exits after such great regular season performances

But by that point Lute had made two final fours too and done the miracle work of turning Arizona into a legit program. If a fan said they wanted to fire Lute you had a lot of Reasons why that is so stupid.

You either weren't around Tucson at the time or are remembering it with a tint of nostalgia. After '93 Arizona had a total of 3 NCAA tournament wins in the previous 4 seasons while being seeded 2, 2, 3, and 2. There was plenty of talk that the '88 run was a fluke, and that Lute's style could win in the regular season but couldn't handle the tournament. That didn't extend to wanting him fired, you're right, that kind of talk was restricted to the RiseandFire's of the world.

But Lute changed his style.

Is Miller going to?

Well Miller will be forced to change his recruiting strategy because of the new NBA rules in a couple of years. We can all (hopefully) agree that the packline and Miller's system works better with experienced upperclassmen. But it will change for everyone else as well, so who knows if it'll be a net benefit.

[NYCat]

"If you'd asked me how often I think about [the Final Four] ... every 15 minutes," Miller said then. "And I'm not gonna run from that. That's why I left Xavier nine years ago. That's why you come to a place like Arizona."

“Arizona is one of those programs where, year in and year out, there are very high expectations,’’ Miller says. “They’re fueled by how close we’ve been to the Final Four. But some of that shine has worn off. It’s up to us to get it back.’’

“I would just say that of all the games that I’ve lost in the tournament, that one right there was the one that probably had a different meaning for me,” Miller said of the 85-78 loss in 2015 to Wisconsin and its 10 second-half three-point shots in 2015, five by Sam Dekker, embodying another Madness ghoul: the smack into the hot shooter.

“Now you’re at your fourth one, and it doesn’t matter what anyone says, you just don’t want to hear it. You don’t want to hear, ‘That’s a great season.’ You don’t want to hear, ‘Hey, your time’s gonna come.’ You don’t want to hear, ‘When you least expect it, you’re gonna be there.’ You just say to yourself, ‘This is the fourth time. I wish I would have lost in the first round.’”

[pc in NM]

I really don’t think average fan thought Lute sucked. I think they were disappointed in first round exits after such great regular season performances

But by that point Lute had made two final fours too and done the miracle work of turning Arizona into a legit program. If a fan said they wanted to fire Lute you had a lot of Reasons why that is so stupid.

You either weren't around Tucson at the time or are remembering it with a tint of nostalgia. After '93 Arizona had a total of 3 NCAA tournament wins in the previous 4 seasons while being seeded 2, 2, 3, and 2. There was plenty of talk that the '88 run was a fluke, and that Lute's style could win in the regular season but couldn't handle the tournament. That didn't extend to wanting him fired, you're right, that kind of talk was restricted to the RiseandFire's of the world.

On the existing AZ discussion boards in ‘97, after the final weekend sweep by the Bay Area schools, there was a LOT of discussion about firing Olson. That is a fact.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I really don’t think average fan thought Lute sucked. I think they were disappointed in first round exits after such great regular season performances

But by that point Lute had made two final fours too and done the miracle work of turning Arizona into a legit program. If a fan said they wanted to fire Lute you had a lot of Reasons why that is so stupid.

You either weren't around Tucson at the time or are remembering it with a tint of nostalgia. After '93 Arizona had a total of 3 NCAA tournament wins in the previous 4 seasons while being seeded 2, 2, 3, and 2. There was plenty of talk that the '88 run was a fluke, and that Lute's style could win in the regular season but couldn't handle the tournament. That didn't extend to wanting him fired, you're right, that kind of talk was restricted to the RiseandFire's of the world.

On the existing AZ discussion boards in ‘97, after the final weekend sweep by the Bay Area schools, there was a LOT of discussion about firing Olson. That is a fact.

Yeah, but it probably took like 15 minutes to write a single post with dialup, so people were extra pissy.

[84Cat]

Before message boards there was after the game radio to get my fix of AZ BB. I had to stop listening because 90% of the calls were people wanting to fire Olson. You guys are crazy if you don't think all the rabid fans in Tucson didn't want to fire Lute during the 90's. Can you imagine a 5th place finish in the Pac with Bibby, Simon, Dickerson & JT on your roster? Sure the Pac was stronger then but people were not happy at all.

[Olsondogg]

I really don’t think average fan thought Lute sucked. I think they were disappointed in first round exits after such great regular season performances

But by that point Lute had made two final fours too and done the miracle work of turning Arizona into a legit program. If a fan said they wanted to fire Lute you had a lot of Reasons why that is so stupid.

You either weren't around Tucson at the time or are remembering it with a tint of nostalgia. After '93 Arizona had a total of 3 NCAA tournament wins in the previous 4 seasons while being seeded 2, 2, 3, and 2. There was plenty of talk that the '88 run was a fluke, and that Lute's style could win in the regular season but couldn't handle the tournament. That didn't extend to wanting him fired, you're right, that kind of talk was restricted to the RiseandFire's of the world.

On the existing AZ discussion boards in ‘97, after the final weekend sweep by the Bay Area schools, there was a LOT of discussion about firing Olson. That is a fact.

Every time Lute lost a first rounder, there was talk of him hanging it up and Arizona moving on. 97 was the worst of it prior to the tourney, and even that S. Alabama game had people wondering if we'd ever be back.

The same naysayers are only amplified now, but they always existed.

[Chicat]

RiseAndFail is on the Bruce Pearl to UA train, right? Isn’t that how it works?

[pc in NM]

I really don’t think average fan thought Lute sucked. I think they were disappointed in first round exits after such great regular season performances

But by that point Lute had made two final fours too and done the miracle work of turning Arizona into a legit program. If a fan said they wanted to fire Lute you had a lot of Reasons why that is so stupid.

You either weren't around Tucson at the time or are remembering it with a tint of nostalgia. After '93 Arizona had a total of 3 NCAA tournament wins in the previous 4 seasons while being seeded 2, 2, 3, and 2. There was plenty of talk that the '88 run was a fluke, and that Lute's style could win in the regular season but couldn't handle the tournament. That didn't extend to wanting him fired, you're right, that kind of talk was restricted to the RiseandFire's of the world.

On the existing AZ discussion boards in ‘97, after the final weekend sweep by the Bay Area schools, there was a LOT of discussion about firing Olson. That is a fact.

Every time Lute lost a first rounder, there was talk of him hanging it up and Arizona moving on. 97 was the worst of it prior to the tourney, and even that S. Alabama game had people wondering if we'd ever be back.

The same naysayers are only amplified now, but they always existed.

Actually, most of those "naysayers" would tell you they were always champions of Lute, and never wavered in their support of him....

[azgreg]

RiseAndFail is on the Bruce Pearl to UA train, right? Isn’t that how it works?

Only if you're a dipshit.

[zonagrad]

The running joke at the time was, “How come there are never any drunks at Lute Olson’s Bar?”
“Because it’s one round and you’re out.!”

Yes it’s frustrating of late. But to consider running Miller off is just crazy. Crazy.

[Olsondogg]

Especially now that the pack line is in a Final 4 and on the verge of a 'ship.

[Longhorned]

Don't you hate it when you're driving home from work listening to all these callers on the radio who want you fired?

[StickItInTheyFace]

The running joke at the time was, “How come there are never any drunks at Lute Olson’s Bar?”
“Because it’s one round and you’re out.!”

Yes it’s frustrating of late. But to consider running Miller off is just crazy. Crazy.

I actually heard my Grandfather, a lifelong ASU fan, say that exact joke word for word a year ago when we lost to Buffalo. He was one of the people that said that when Lute was coaching and he still uses the same joke now by just plugging in Miller's name (those fans are so original) . Just like Lute, I know he wishes ASU had something remotely close to what Miller has brought us in his tenure.

I expect to hear that from him, when I hear UofA fans with the same criticism I cant help but chuckle to myself.

I really thought this year would be a reality check for the common fan, make them realize what a mediocre season for most programs looks like. Hoping they would begin to appreciate the program and coach that we have. Instead it has just added fuel to the anti-Miller fire.

[PieceOfMeat]

Hoping they would begin to appreciate the program...that we have.

You think the fans don't appreciate the program we have? I think you've got that horribly wrong, the fans love the program we have, which is why they're frustrated with the last four years, especially when coupled with the scandal crap.

As to your sentiment in full regarding the coach:

I really thought this year would be a reality check for the common fan, make them realize what a mediocre season for most programs looks like. Hoping they would begin to appreciate the program and coach that we have. Instead it has just added fuel to the anti-Miller fire.

You thought a historically bad season would make the fans more appreciative of a coach that hasn't done much the last 4 years, who is also embroiled in a scandal, and also runs a boring brand of basketball?

Uh.........no.

[zonagrad]

Hoping they would begin to appreciate the program...that we have.

You think the fans don't appreciate the program we have? I think you've got that horribly wrong, the fans love the program we have, which is why they're frustrated with the last four years, especially when coupled with the scandal crap.

As to your sentiment in full regarding the coach:

I really thought this year would be a reality check for the common fan, make them realize what a mediocre season for most programs looks like. Hoping they would begin to appreciate the program and coach that we have. Instead it has just added fuel to the anti-Miller fire.

You thought a historically bad season would make the fans more appreciative of a coach that hasn't done much the last 4 years, who is also embroiled in a scandal, and also runs a boring brand of basketball?

Uh.........no.

This is such a bullshit post. Arizona won the Pac 12 Tourney title two years ago and had a damn good year. They lost in the Sweet 16. A year ago they won the regular season title AND the conference tourney (again). That's "not doing much" according to you. Bullshit.

Oh, almost forgot that boring brand of basketball. Again, here's the temp rates of THIS YEAR'S Final Four teams:

KenPom tempo ratings:
Virginia: 353
Texas Tech: 229
Michigan State: 201
Auburn: 153

Oh, isn't Auburn embroiled in that same scandal? Didn't Chuck Person accept a helluva lot more money than Book?

Tony Bennett is lucky as fuck to have a final four because Purdue couldn't make a fucking free-throw with 12 seconds left and couldn't box out and grab a rebound on a FT they knew was going to be missed. But shit, he's now a much better coach than Miller because he pulled lightning out of his ass and stuck it in a bottle. Oh, don't forget, fans like you would''ve canned Bennett a year ago after becoming the first #1 seed to lose to a 16 seed. Your argument is terrible.

[Merkin]

[KillerKlown]

I thought that was a face pictured on a popsicle stick at first. Sorry Ashley.

[StickItInTheyFace]

Hoping they would begin to appreciate the program...that we have.

You think the fans don't appreciate the program we have? I think you've got that horribly wrong, the fans love the program we have, which is why they're frustrated with the last four years, especially when coupled with the scandal crap.

As to your sentiment in full regarding the coach:

I really thought this year would be a reality check for the common fan, make them realize what a mediocre season for most programs looks like. Hoping they would begin to appreciate the program and coach that we have. Instead it has just added fuel to the anti-Miller fire.

You thought a historically bad season would make the fans more appreciative of a coach that hasn't done much the last 4 years, who is also embroiled in a scandal, and also runs a boring brand of basketball?

Uh.........no.

There’s a big difference between frustration and what I’m referring to. We are all frustrated with how this year went. Yeah I wish they didn’t get bounced last year in the first round with the #1 draft pick, I wish they would’ve weathered the storm and made the dance this year and I’m definitley not happy we are the poster child of an FBI investigation.

Appreciation of the program shouldn’t waiver from year to year just because we have gotten accustomed to better results. BTFD and roll with the punches. When Miller needs to go it will be obvious to everyone, not just the fans that only watch when we are ranked and the handful of contrarians that think they individually know the best way to run a basketball program. We don’t deserve anything just because we are Arizona.

[PieceOfMeat]

Hey zonagrad, don't let your blind rage get in the way of facts or anything, but:

fans like you would''ve canned Bennett a year ago after becoming the first #1 seed to lose to a 16 seed. Your argument is terrible.

fans like me?
I've never called for Miller's head, nor have I predicted he'd be fired. Quite the contrary actually, I'm of the opinion that you keep Miller all they way through the scandal/investigation/sanctions(if any happen) and you let him get us through all that crap and back to a good level with talent/etc before you think of firing him.

But hey, you're all upset, so I get that you want to point at someone and yell and assume they've said something they havent.

As for some other things you said:

This is such a bullshit post. Arizona won the Pac 12 Tourney title two years ago and had a damn good year. They lost in the Sweet 16. A year ago they won the regular season title AND the conference tourney (again). That's "not doing much" according to you. Bullshit.

I thought it was obvious I was referring to the post season. 2 post season wins in the last 4 seasons is not doing much. Especially with the guys we've had on some of those teams.

The average fan doesn't give much of a shit about how many pac12 titles we have if we're not succeeding in the tourney. You can rail against that all you want, you can enjoy the regular season all you want, but there's a reason that March Madness is king. The average fan cares about the tourney.

Also, let's not forget that the pac12 has been a completely shit conference over the last decade. Gonzaga's regular season record doesn't impress anyone either, and Arizona plays in a conference that's (lately) just about as bad as the conference that the Zags play in(as just one example).

Oh, almost forgot that boring brand of basketball. Again, here's the temp rates of THIS YEAR'S Final Four teams:

KenPom tempo ratings:
Virginia: 353
Texas Tech: 229
Michigan State: 201
Auburn: 153

Why the fuck would an Arizona fan care if other teams run a boring brand of basketball? But even putting aside the fact that an Arizona fan shouldn't care if other teams are boring is this: Arizona runs a boring brand of basketball and doesn't have a final four to go with it.

Winning cures all ills. If we were in the final four that would mean we are winning when it matters most, and results are worth more than style.

However, when you're in a stretch of 2 ncaa wins in the last 4 years, the fact that you run a boring brand of basketball tends to stick out more. "Do what we do" is a great mantra when you win, and it's not when you're losing while playing the same boring ass 1 offensive set out of a timeout.

Oh, isn't Auburn embroiled in that same scandal? Didn't Chuck Person accept a helluva lot more money than Book?

And again, why the fuck should an Arizona fan care about another school being in the same scandal? Does that alleviate the pain/embarrassment of the average fan? You know, the guy who goes to work and has to hear it from his buddies all the time how Arizona is a cheat and still can't win? You think that guy gives a shit if Auburn is also involved in the same scandal?

But as I said above, winning cures all ills. Only we're not winning, and so the scandal piles on top.

Tony Bennett is lucky as fuck to have a final four because Purdue couldn't make a fucking free-throw with 12 seconds left and couldn't box out and grab a rebound on a FT they knew was going to be missed. But shit, he's now a much better coach than Miller because he pulled lightning out of his ass and stuck it in a bottle.

Keep on beating that dead horse. Everyone knows luck is involved in the tourney, especially on a message board where fan(atic)s spend time talking about sports.
Did I say anywhere that Bennett was a better coach than Miller?
No, I didn't.
Why try to put words into my mouth instead of quoting the people in this very thread who have stated that?

My advice is to be a little less angry and maybe attribute what is said to the correct person.

Your argument is terrible.

Speaking of terrible arguments, feel free to read your post.

[PieceOfMeat]

Appreciation of the program shouldn’t waiver from year to year just because we have gotten accustomed to better results.

Perhaps then you could better explain/define for me what you mean with this. How are the fans not appreciative of our basketball program?

We have by far, the best support of any team in the pac12 (just look at the damn revenue and attendance numbers).

[Newportcat]

Appreciation of the program shouldn’t waiver from year to year just because we have gotten accustomed to better results.

Perhaps then you could better explain/define for me what you mean with this. How are the fans not appreciative of our basketball program?

We have by far, the best support of any team in the pac12 (just look at the damn revenue and attendance numbers).

I mean we sold out the last game of the year when we had no real shot at even making the tournament at that point.

What shit fans Arizona has

[zonagrad]

Hey zonagrad, don't let your blind rage get in the way of facts or anything, but:

fans like you would''ve canned Bennett a year ago after becoming the first #1 seed to lose to a 16 seed. Your argument is terrible.

fans like me?
I've never called for Miller's head, nor have I predicted he'd be fired. Quite the contrary actually, I'm of the opinion that you keep Miller all they way through the scandal/investigation/sanctions(if any happen) and you let him get us through all that crap and back to a good level with talent/etc before you think of firing him.

But hey, you're all upset, so I get that you want to point at someone and yell and assume they've said something they havent.

As for some other things you said:

This is such a bullshit post. Arizona won the Pac 12 Tourney title two years ago and had a damn good year. They lost in the Sweet 16. A year ago they won the regular season title AND the conference tourney (again). That's "not doing much" according to you. Bullshit.

I thought it was obvious I was referring to the post season. 2 post season wins in the last 4 wins is not doing much. Especially with the guys we've had on some of those teams.

The average fan doesn't give much of a shit about how many pac12 titles we have if we're not succeeding in the tourney. You can rail against that all you want, you can enjoy the regular season all you want, but there's a reason that March Madness is king. The average fan cares about the tourney.

Also, let's not forget that the pac12 has been a completely shit conference over the last decade. Gonzaga's regular season record doesn't impress anyone either, and Arizona plays in a conference that's (lately) just about as bad as the conference that the Zags play in(as just one example).

Oh, almost forgot that boring brand of basketball. Again, here's the temp rates of THIS YEAR'S Final Four teams:

KenPom tempo ratings:
Virginia: 353
Texas Tech: 229
Michigan State: 201
Auburn: 153

Why the fuck would an Arizona fan care if other teams run a boring brand of basketball? But even putting aside the fact that an Arizona fan shouldn't care if other teams are boring is this: Arizona runs a boring brand of basketball and doesn't have a final four to go with it.

Winning cures all ills. If we were in the final four that would mean we are winning when it matters most, and results are worth more than style.

However, when you're in a stretch of 2 ncaa wins in the last 4 years, the fact that you run a boring brand of basketball tends to stick out more. "Do what we do" is a great mantra when you win, and it's not when you're losing while playing the same boring ass 1 offensive set out of a timeout.

Oh, isn't Auburn embroiled in that same scandal? Didn't Chuck Person accept a helluva lot more money than Book?

And again, why the fuck should an Arizona fan care about another school being in the same scandal? Does that alleviate the pain/embarrassment of the average fan? You know, the guy who goes to work and has to hear it from his buddies all the time how Arizona is a cheat and still can't win? You think that guy gives a shit if Auburn is also involved in the same scandal?

But as I said above, winning cures all ills. Only we're not winning, and so the scandal piles on top.

Tony Bennett is lucky as fuck to have a final four because Purdue couldn't make a fucking free-throw with 12 seconds left and couldn't box out and grab a rebound on a FT they knew was going to be missed. But shit, he's now a much better coach than Miller because he pulled lightning out of his ass and stuck it in a bottle.

Keep on beating that dead horse. Everyone knows luck is involved in the tourney, especially on a message board where fan(atic)s spend time talking about sports.
Did I say anywhere that Bennett was a better coach than Miller?
No, I didn't.
Why try to put words into my mouth instead of quoting the people in this very thread who have stated that?

My advice is to be a little less angry and maybe attribute what is said to the correct person.

Your argument is terrible.

Speaking of terrible arguments, feel free to read your post.

I stand by ever word. And I don’t think the sensible fans on this board are too far from my take.

[Newportcat]

You don’t think Tony Bennett is a better coach then Miller

That is not being anything close to sensible

[StickItInTheyFace]

Appreciation of the program shouldn’t waiver from year to year just because we have gotten accustomed to better results.

Perhaps then you could better explain/define for me what you mean with this. How are the fans not appreciative of our basketball program?

We have by far, the best support of any team in the pac12 (just look at the damn revenue and attendance numbers).

I mean we sold out the last game of the year when we had no real shot at even making the tournament at that point.

What shit fans Arizona has

I am in no way referring to the fans that are attending games and supporting the team. In my post I very specifically mentioned people who only watch our games when we are ranked and the handful of contrarians who are calling for Millers head. In no way am I saying we have shitty fans. I will say as a whole we have very lofty expectations and despite our awesome support and fan base, we are not in any way entitled to success. I’m sorry if I wasn’t very clear originally.

[PieceOfMeat]

I stand by ever word. And I don’t think the sensible fans on this board are too far from my take.

So you're the type to accuse someone of saying something they didn't, and when that is pointed out, you stand by your demonstrably false statements.

Good to know facts don't matter to you.

That's a real sensible approach.

[PieceOfMeat]

Appreciation of the program shouldn’t waiver from year to year just because we have gotten accustomed to better results.

Perhaps then you could better explain/define for me what you mean with this. How are the fans not appreciative of our basketball program?

We have by far, the best support of any team in the pac12 (just look at the damn revenue and attendance numbers).

I mean we sold out the last game of the year when we had no real shot at even making the tournament at that point.

What shit fans Arizona has

I am in no way referring to the fans that are attending games and supporting the team. In my post I very specifically mentioned people who only watch our games when we are ranked and the handful of contrarians who are calling for Millers head. In no way am I saying we have shitty fans. I will say as a whole we have very lofty expectations and despite our awesome support and fan base, we are not in any way entitled to success. I’m sorry if I wasn’t very clear originally.

You mentioned those types of fans only in your second post, and yet, when you specify those fans I have to go back to a question I had previously for you:

You thought a historically bad season would make the fans (who only watch when we're ranked, and the ones who are contrarians as you define them) more appreciative of the program?

Aren't those fans you specifically mentioned the least likely to respond well to a historically bad season?

[StickItInTheyFace]

Appreciation of the program shouldn’t waiver from year to year just because we have gotten accustomed to better results.

Perhaps then you could better explain/define for me what you mean with this. How are the fans not appreciative of our basketball program?

We have by far, the best support of any team in the pac12 (just look at the damn revenue and attendance numbers).

I mean we sold out the last game of the year when we had no real shot at even making the tournament at that point.

What shit fans Arizona has

I am in no way referring to the fans that are attending games and supporting the team. In my post I very specifically mentioned people who only watch our games when we are ranked and the handful of contrarians who are calling for Millers head. In no way am I saying we have shitty fans. I will say as a whole we have very lofty expectations and despite our awesome support and fan base, we are not in any way entitled to success. I’m sorry if I wasn’t very clear originally.

You mentioned those types of fans only in your second post, and yet, when you specify those fans I have to go back to a question I had previously for you:

You thought a historically bad season would make the fans (who only watch when we're ranked, and the ones who are contrarians as you define them) more appreciative of the program?

Aren't those fans you specifically mentioned the least likely to respond well to a historically bad season?

Definitley, maybe I was being too optimistic that people would see how tough this season was and begin to relish the success that we’ve had in recent years even though it didn’t end in a final four. That was my experience, as I watched every game this season I realized any time I whined about us getting bounced short of a final four was just from me being spoiled with our recent success. My hope was those people felt the same way.

There’s two ways to look at this season, that we have hit rock bottom and our program is in shambles. Or that we really struggled this season but hey, the sun rose the next morning and I’m more excited about Arizona basketball going into the 2019-2020 season than many previous years. I’m being very cliche but I think I’m right, the lows like this season will make the highs higher. My hope would be that people want to support the team even more when we are down, instead of move on from our coach when shit gets tough. Just ask a true Browns fan how they feel about the upcoming season. I would say that they are probably much more excited than any Pats fan right now, especially because they didn’t quit after decades of disappointment.

I appreciate you keeping me honest with what I wrote.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Don’t worry about it. The goalposts get moved so often in this tired argument that there’s no football field left, just abandoned concrete footings. You can’t win an argument (ever?) . . . but certainly not when the people you argue with move the posts 10 yards forward or back to suit their needs.

[zonagrad]

I stand by ever word. And I don’t think the sensible fans on this board are too far from my take.

So you're the type to accuse someone of saying something they didn't, and when that is pointed out, you stand by your demonstrably false statements.

Good to know facts don't matter to you.

That's a real sensible approach.

No, as stated above by others, you move the goalposts in the discussion. You said Miller hasn’t done much the last 4 seasons. I argued he has. Then you clarify and say post season, which is still wrong because the conference tournament is the post season as well. So now we know you only mean March Madness, where luck is a huge factor as evidence by this year’s tournament where Duke should have been out in the 2nd round if UCF could make a layup. And Auburn, too. And Virginia’s appearance is lucky as hell. You refuse to acknowledge that point. UVA lost to a 16 seed. And if Purdue had simply made a FT, they would’ve lost again. But now Bennett is Sainted by nothing he did.

All the Final 4 participants play a slow brand of basketball. Arizona plays faster. But that’s still not good enough for you because Miller doesn’t play as fast as Lute on his best day.

And Auburn in the Final Four and under investigation does matter. Because your position is all that matters is success in March. And because we’ve hit a tough patch, you bring up everything negative. The point is, your argument is about March Madness success and success only. But then add other stuff unrelated to March. And if you’re gonna do that, then yes, the positive stuff unrelated to March Madness should count, too. But you dismiss that out of hand. If Miller had multiple Final Fours but played actually played a style like UVA, would that make you happy? Or if Miller made a Final Four but never won any conference titles or conference tournaments?

So yes, it’s fans like you who don’t appreciate what Miller has done, even in the last four years. It’s the same shit I heard about Lute in the early 90’s before the Stoudamire/ Reeves Final Four. And frankly, some fans were still bitching after ‘95 and ‘96, saying Lute still never reached the top.

Fans like you are unreasonable unless you get everything you want. And that’s a tall fucking order.

[Chicat]

Don’t worry about it. The goalposts get moved so often in this tired argument that there’s no football field left, just abandoned concrete footings. You can’t win an argument (ever?) . . . but certainly not when the people you argue with move the posts 10 yards forward or back to suit their needs.

This is as close to a UA Message Board biblical truth as you’re ever going to read.

[ChooChooCat]

Oh, isn't Auburn embroiled in that same scandal? Didn't Chuck Person accept a helluva lot more money than Book?

I have nothing against Auburn personally, but the fact that they literally went completely unF*CKINGscathed from being embroiled in the same scandal we are and made the Final Four will irk me to no end for eternity. Truly amazing how the media chose to cover this story and focus literally on one school.

[CalStateTempe]

Oh, isn't Auburn embroiled in that same scandal? Didn't Chuck Person accept a helluva lot more money than Book?

I have nothing against Auburn personally, but the fact that they literally went completely unF*CKINGscathed from being embroiled in the same scandal we are and made the Final Four will irk me to no end for eternity. Truly amazing how the media chose to cover this story and focus literally on one school.

Yup.

As I mentioned, I am so so so jealous of auburn and pearl.

I don’t like either party and pearl is as shady as the best of them, and this irks me to no end. Almost the point where it effects me college bb fandom as a whole.

[Newportcat]

I am not sure the Browns analogy is a good one. Browns fans are excited because they have a new coach, new players, and young players that should be together for a while. The future appears bright. Will it result in a super bowl I don’t know but I can totally see why a browns fan would be very optimistic

In pro sports it’s dumb to ever be to negative because it’s very easy to fire coaches and the way the draft works it does it’s best to provide parity around the league. Teams can change so quickly and the playing field is far more fair. Browns in large part of have sucked because of their own doing

My challenge with college basketball now which I have stated before is there is no more narrative and I think the sport in many ways is broken

I can’t name a single player on any final four team

I have zero clue what our team looks like in 2020/2021. Literally none. I do know vast majority of our current players won’t be on it. So it’s difficult to stay optimistic because no team ever builds off another team anymore. It’s all one and dones teams. Last four years this had been especially true

I look at our women’s basketball program and easy for me to be very optimistic. I think Adia will be here for a while and current players will be as well.

I think this is where I struggle with picking on fans or fan support in that the game is effectively broken outside of March madness being popular. It’s a very different game that in my opinion sucks. Couple that with our style of basketball under Miller being boring and I see why fans feel the way they do. Also couple it with a lack of great non conference games at home and pac 12 being garbage. It’s literally all shitty to me.

I guess I am just really disappointed in what college basketball and Arizona has become and maybe wanting a new coach is a way for me to get excited about it again as it will be change. It’s fools gold for sure as I just don’t see the ncaa changing anything in fear of affecting their golden goose which is the final four. And everyone is right in that a new coach could have worse results for sure

But to me the game is broken as coach k recently said

I am excited for Nico but not completely as I know he is a one night stand

[dmjcat]

Oh, isn't Auburn embroiled in that same scandal? Didn't Chuck Person accept a helluva lot more money than Book?

I have nothing against Auburn personally, but the fact that they literally went completely unF*CKINGscathed from being embroiled in the same scandal we are and made the Final Four will irk me to no end for eternity. Truly amazing how the media chose to cover this story and focus literally on one school.

AU is getting their share of attention:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/c ... 301783002/" target="_blank

[ChooChooCat]

Oh, isn't Auburn embroiled in that same scandal? Didn't Chuck Person accept a helluva lot more money than Book?

I have nothing against Auburn personally, but the fact that they literally went completely unF*CKINGscathed from being embroiled in the same scandal we are and made the Final Four will irk me to no end for eternity. Truly amazing how the media chose to cover this story and focus literally on one school.

AU is getting their share of attention:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/c ... 301783002/" target="_blank

That one article doesn't remotely come close to what has happened to us. Not even in the same universe let alone planet.

[PieceOfMeat]

Oh look:

...luck is a huge factor...lucky as hell. You refuse to acknowledge that point.

Ahem:

Everyone knows luck is involved in the tourney, especially on a message board where fan(atic)s spend time talking about sports.

But sure, keep on being wrong about things I've said, as you've done in a couple of posts now. It's a real good look on you

All the Final 4 participants play a slow brand of basketball. Arizona plays faster.

Again I'll ask, to an Arizona fan, why should it matter what brand of basketball someone else plays? But even assuming they should care, your start of the sentence is exactly what I've already stated. "Final 4 participants" = winning. As I said before, winning cures all ills. You win and fans are happy to overlook boring basketball. You don't win and then fans start factoring in the style of play into their complaints.

But that’s still not good enough for you because Miller doesn’t play as fast as Lute on his best day.

Feel free to point out and quote where I've said this. I'll wait.

And Auburn in the Final Four and under investigation does matter.

It doesn't matter to Arizona fans, and why should it?
Arizona being raked over the coals with every stupid article that comes out is what adds to the average fan's frustration level. Key word = Arizona. You know, the team they're a fan of.

I don't know why you seem to ignore the fact that if we were winning/succeeding despite the investigation crap, that fans would be willing to overlook it.
As I said, winning cures all ills. When the team isn't winning at a level the fans want, then the fans factor in stuff they'd normally let slide.

If Miller had multiple Final Fours but played actually played a style like UVA, would that make you happy?

Would I like to have multiple final fours to go with playing a boring brand of basketball?

Uh, yes. If we're going to play a boring brand of basketball then I'd very much like to also have multiple Final Fours (and a championship too please).

Would you prefer to play a boring brand of basketball and NOT have final fours?

So yes, it’s fans like you who don’t appreciate what Miller has done, even in the last four years. It’s the same shit I heard about Lute in the early 90’s before the Stoudamire/ Reeves Final Four. And frankly, some fans were still bitching after ‘95 and ‘96, saying Lute still never reached the top.

Fans like you are unreasonable unless you get everything you want. And that’s a tall fucking order.

Feel free to quote where I"ve compared him to Lute. Or where I've brought up Lute. Or feel free to quote where I demand to get everything I want out of the basketball program.

Oh wait, you can't, you're too busy being intellectually dishonest (see my first quote of you above, for example) and you desperately want to lump me in with some other people so you point and yell and accuse me of things I've not done.

Criticising a coach's play style does not equal wanting him gone, or any of the other stuff you've spouted. But sure, feel free to ignore facts.

Like I said, it's a real sensible approach.

::::
edits made

[sirhamsalot]

Ladies....You're BOTH pretty!!! No go eat a Snickers and relax. We've got the #1 class coming in and expectations are as high as they've ever been under CSM.

[catgrad97]

Oh, isn't Auburn embroiled in that same scandal? Didn't Chuck Person accept a helluva lot more money than Book?

I have nothing against Auburn personally, but the fact that they literally went completely unF*CKINGscathed from being embroiled in the same scandal we are and made the Final Four will irk me to no end for eternity. Truly amazing how the media chose to cover this story and focus literally on one school.

AU is getting their share of attention:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/c ... 301783002/" target="_blank

That one article doesn't remotely come close to what has happened to us. Not even in the same universe let alone planet.

Truth. And it really does all go back to Larry Scott.

The SEC takes care of its schools. Like real, responsible conferences do. Renegotiates TV contracts annually, expands its own network into new markets, AND, yes, knows how the high-stakes recruiting game is played--and teaches same to their athletic staffs right down the line.

EDIT: Not to mention is loaded with alumni who have the charm, contacts and the cash to be ambassadors to the media. Is there a Pac-12 guy out there, active, besides Steve Kerr, who we could point to as an ambassador for our conference?

Shit no. The SEC builds its brand.

Scott has a fragile ego the size of the Titanic, with accommodations everywhere he works and travels to match. Meanwhile, he doesn't have a clue how to even help secure charter flights to UCLA, much less attract, develop or retain the best in the business. John Calipari being Exhibit A.

The SEC supports, protects and markets its member institutions. The Pac-12 mumbles words to those effects but does nothing beyond that. And there are no bright minds like Ced Dempsey ascending through our favorite AD to halt this slide into the doldrums.

Sean Miller will either restore the Arizona basketball brand next season, in spite of the Pac-12, or burn out. He is literally that surrounded by idiots.

[Chicat]

Bruce Pearl must have told DukieV that he’s Italian on his mother’s side.

[zonagrad]

Oh look, you're back to blatantly lieing. It's a real good look on you:

...luck is a huge factor...lucky as hell. You refuse to acknowledge that point.

Ahem:

Everyone knows luck is involved in the tourney, especially on a message board where fan(atic)s spend time talking about sports.

But sure, keep on lieing about things I've said, as you've done in a couple of posts now. It's a real good look on you, troll.

All the Final 4 participants play a slow brand of basketball. Arizona plays faster.

Again I'll ask, to an Arizona fan, why should it matter what brand of basketball someone else plays? But even assuming they should care, your start of the sentence is exactly what I've already stated. "Final 4 participants" = winning. As I said before, winning cures all ills. You win and fans are happy to overlook boring basketball. You don't win and then fans start factoring in the style of play into their complaints.

But that’s still not good enough for you because Miller doesn’t play as fast as Lute on his best day.

Feel free to point out and quote where I've said this. I'll wait.

And Auburn in the Final Four and under investigation does matter.

It doesn't matter to Arizona fans, and why should it?
Arizona being raked over the coals with every stupid article that comes out is what adds to the average fan's frustration level. Key word = Arizona. You know, the team they're a fan of.

I don't know why you seem to ignore the fact that if we were winning/succeeding despite the investigation crap, that fans would be willing to overlook it.
As I said, winning cures all ills. When the team isn't winning at a level the fans want, then the fans factor in stuff they'd normally let slide.

If Miller had multiple Final Fours but played actually played a style like UVA, would that make you happy?

Would I like to have multiple final fours to go with playing a boring brand of basketball?

Uh, yes. If we're going to play a boring brand of basketball then I'd very much like to also have multiple Final Fours (and a championship too please).

Would you prefer to play a boring brand of basketball and NOT have final fours?

So yes, it’s fans like you who don’t appreciate what Miller has done, even in the last four years. It’s the same shit I heard about Lute in the early 90’s before the Stoudamire/ Reeves Final Four. And frankly, some fans were still bitching after ‘95 and ‘96, saying Lute still never reached the top.

Fans like you are unreasonable unless you get everything you want. And that’s a tall fucking order.

Feel free to quote where I"ve compared him to Lute. Or where I've brought up Lute. Or feel free to quote where I demand to get everything I want out of the basketball program.

Oh wait, you can't, you're too busy being intellectually dishonest (see my first quote of you above, for example) and you desperately want to lump me in with some other people so you point and yell and accuse me of things I've not done.

Criticising a coach's play style does not equal wanting him gone, or any of the other bull shit lies you've spouted. But sure, feel free to ignore facts.

Like I said, it's a real sensible approach.

Oh, and welcome to ignore, since anyone who blatantly lies is an obvious troll not worth responding to.

You're right. I did overreact to your post and made some assertions about you that weren't true. My apologies.

[YoDeFoe]

Bruce Pearl must have told DukieV that he’s Italian on his mother’s side.

[84Cat]

Oh, isn't Auburn embroiled in that same scandal? Didn't Chuck Person accept a helluva lot more money than Book?

I have nothing against Auburn personally, but the fact that they literally went completely unF*CKINGscathed from being embroiled in the same scandal we are and made the Final Four will irk me to no end for eternity. Truly amazing how the media chose to cover this story and focus literally on one school.

AU is getting their share of attention:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/c ... 301783002/" target="_blank

That one article doesn't remotely come close to what has happened to us. Not even in the same universe let alone planet.

Truth. And it really does all go back to Larry Scott.

The SEC takes care of its schools. Like real, responsible conferences do. Renegotiates TV contracts annually, expands its own network into new markets, AND, yes, knows how the high-stakes recruiting game is played--and teaches same to their athletic staffs right down the line.

EDIT: Not to mention is loaded with alumni who have the charm, contacts and the cash to be ambassadors to the media. Is there a Pac-12 guy out there, active, besides Steve Kerr, who we could point to as an ambassador for our conference?

Shit no. The SEC builds its brand.

Scott has a fragile ego the size of the Titanic, with accommodations everywhere he works and travels to match. Meanwhile, he doesn't have a clue how to even help secure charter flights to UCLA, much less attract, develop or retain the best in the business. John Calipari being Exhibit A.

The SEC supports, protects and markets its member institutions. The Pac-12 mumbles words to those effects but does nothing beyond that. And there are no bright minds like Ced Dempsey ascending through our favorite AD to halt this slide into the doldrums.

Sean Miller will either restore the Arizona basketball brand next season, in spite of the Pac-12, or burn out. He is literally that surrounded by idiots.

Spot on! Larry needs to go and we need to hire someone who knows what they are doing.

[NYCat]

Oh, isn't Auburn embroiled in that same scandal? Didn't Chuck Person accept a helluva lot more money than Book?

I have nothing against Auburn personally, but the fact that they literally went completely unF*CKINGscathed from being embroiled in the same scandal we are and made the Final Four will irk me to no end for eternity. Truly amazing how the media chose to cover this story and focus literally on one school.

I think the same would've been true for Arizona had the Ayton/$100K/Miller/ESPN story never dropped. Every subsequent report or nugget that came out Arizona was amplified because the public damage from the Schlabach report amplified Arizona status even higher. Everything after that just made Arizona look when more guilty than they are and just more confirmation Arizona/Miller is guilty. So when something drops during the trial about other schools like say, NC State no one really pays too much attention or cares.

We're an easy target now and forever, we're a dead horse getting beaten. It's easy to write a story about the ABOR and amplify that because it sounds big and dramatic but it's just basically nothing.

BTW, not sure how worried we should collectively be about the upcoming second Dawkins trial. They want to muddy the waters even more and cause more damage.

Kansas was not really involved in the FBI college hoops trial, but that changed during the trial. Incredibly damaging for them.

[PieceOfMeat]

You're right. I did overreact to your post and made some assertions about you that weren't true. My apologies.

All good man, thanks for the message.

[TheGreatCatsby]

Watching our women's team's NIT run, I kinda wish Adia Barnes was our coach. What struck me was how their style of play is a lot more fun to watch then the mens. Constantly pushing the tempo, and her guards have been trained how to properly throw in entry passes to the post (yes it is possible to dribble a step or two to the side to get a better angle instead of just lobbing it half ass or standing with feet in concrete). Of course our mens team doesn't have a guard near as good as Aari McDonald, so there's that holding Miller back. Seriously Miller was in attendance, hope he picked up some ideas to make his team as watchable as the ladies.