Sean Miller

[CalStateTempe]

And at some point that’s on coach if you don’t have the skill set to massage those egos to get buy in to stay with the program and if it’s too frustrating to deal with them, then you should be able to sniff the that out during the recruiting cycle and not offer.

That’s called EQ. The “it” factor. Most elite coaches have “it”.

[zonagrad]

And at some point that’s on coach if you don’t have the skill set to massage those egos to get buy in to stay with the program and if it’s too frustrating to deal with them, then you should be able to sniff the that out during the recruiting cycle and not offer.

That’s called EQ. The “it” factor. Most elite coaches have “it”.

Yes, agree that's on the coach. But I also think every coach has been bitten by the wanderlust of recruits. We just focus more on the players that leave Arizona early. If you audit the rosters of other good programs, the same thing happens.

The only difference between Altman and Miller is that when Oregon reached the FF, they did so because a few players stuck around that extra year and blossomed late (Jordan Bell, Dillon Brooks) and same insane transfers (Dylan Ennis was a 6th year player as was Chris Boucher). Tyler Dorsey certainly wasn't ready for the NBA anymore than Kobi Simmons.

The recruitment of Alkins and Simmons was curious because both were talented (but certainly not 1 and done types. Not even close). So why invest in these types of players if they're not gonna be around long enough to be of real value? Were these Book Richardson recruits? Will that change now that he's gone or will Miller continue to recruit this way?

Our program would've had a much different path had Jerrett, Ashley, Simon, Alkins & Simmons stayed. But if they had stayed, would we have landed Markannen & Ayton?

[TatetheGreat]

Tired of the excuses. Put up or shut up. How long are we going to debate the same issues? We have a decade of evidence telling us what to expect. First as tragedy, then as farce. If you ask me,

[ChooChooCat]

Maybe I am naive to think that we could get better then the average available coach.

You're not naive at all.

Also Bobby Hurley at the time of his hiring was not the average available coach. He was a flash in the pan in a very short time in Buffalo.

[CalStateTempe]

It would be nice to know who is on the “oh shit that happened” list a unc/duke/Kentucky and try to target those guys before they need to in the event Miller is nolonger at Arizona for whatever reason.

[UALoco]

We have the talent. Sean Miller's offensive scheme is just lacking. Not enough easy baskets. And what the hell is that stupid hand-off passing weave thing we do? It looks so lame.

Can't we pull Mark Few? I think SM makes 4+MM a year and Mark Few makes less than 2MM a year.

[ChooChooCat]

Unless Tucson becomes a hotbed for fly fishing Mark Few would never leave Spokane. Also we don't have the talent. We have 3 above average to excellent players and then meh to go with that and yes that falls on Miller.

[Longhorned]

It's interesting to hear how some of you are at the the end of your rope in December. Under Miller, the regular season success has been undeniable, and the frustration has previously focused on not reaching the Final Four.

It's one thing to be critical of the product at this point (and it has been atrocious for well over half the game in all three losses), but it's something else to be completely fed up and done with a coach before Christmas on his first season back after a year with a gutted roster after the Book and Schlabach scandals.

We need an emoticon with a bucktooth, slobbering mouth and that finger gesture going around in circles next to where the brain is.

[zonagrad]

It's interesting to hear how some of you are at the the end of your rope in December. Under Miller, the regular season success has been undeniable, and the frustration has previously focused on not reaching the Final Four.

It's one thing to be critical of the product at this point (and it has been atrocious for well over half the game in all three losses), but it's something else to be completely fed up and done with a coach before Christmas on his first season back after a year with a gutted roster after the Book and Schlabach scandals.

We need an emoticon with a bucktooth, slobbering mouth and that finger gesture going around in circles next to where the brain is.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Our problem isn't our offense. It's players jacking up three pointers after one or two passes and :24 remaining on the shot clock. And that leads to poor positioning on rebounding -- an easy defensive rebound for the opponent and a better opportunity for them at the other end in transition.

Miller should have a no-three pointer rule unless there is less than :12 on the shot clock and the ball has gone inside to Zeke in the post at least once.

These are the lessons that most players learn after multiple years in a program. They are freshman mistakes (mistakes that Dylan Smith and Jemarl Baker should NOT be making). If Miller is vocal about it during his post-game pressers, you can damn well be certain he's going crazy about it at halftime.

We're not as good as we thought we'd be for a multitude of reasons:

a). We're without Gettings, a veteran player who can make shots
b). We lost Doutrive, who would have taken minutes from Smith and no doubt would give Miller even more leverage with playing time.
c). Our freshmen, as talented as they are, are still freshmen learning the hard way. The mistakes and lack of consistency can normally be overcome with upperclassmen who are just as talented and much smarter. This season, we don't have upperclassmen who are just as talented, nor smarter.

The '97 team, despite beating UNC to start the season, still lost at New Mexico & Michigan in December AND finished 5th in the Pac. And failed to win 20 regular season games. And almost lost to South Alabama in the first round -- trailing by 10 with 5 minutes to play. How could THAT HAPPEN with the best point guard recruit in the country guiding the team? Well, that team had zero seniors -- so they were also learning on the fly.

Patience everyone. Patience.

Yes, this team isn't the '97 team. Yet. But they'll be handful to play by March as long as they stay healthy.

[Longhorned]

Since we're all Wildcat brothers and sisters here (and I'm sure you're all master grillers and assets to your communities), I'll just add that sometimes I want to treat you like brothers and insult you to your faces for your horrible basketball opinions, and then we tussle on the lawn and I don't actually rip your shirt, but I do irreparably stretch your collar, and then lie to you that it will fix itself in the wash to avoid having to buy you a new shirt.

[Captain Obvious]

It's interesting to hear how some of you are at the the end of your rope in December. Under Miller, the regular season success has been undeniable, and the frustration has previously focused on not reaching the Final Four.

It's one thing to be critical of the product at this point (and it has been atrocious for well over half the game in all three losses), but it's something else to be completely fed up and done with a coach before Christmas on his first season back after a year with a gutted roster after the Book and Schlabach scandals.

We need an emoticon with a bucktooth, slobbering mouth and that finger gesture going around in circles next to where the brain is.

You can make excuses for Miller or hold him accountable. I prefer the latter. The situation we were in last year was due to Miller's lack of institutional control. No one will ever convince me he had no idea what was going on with Book. He did and the program took a marked decline. Now the NCAA punishment looms over the program like the sword of damocles. The uncertainty in the basketball programs future will continue to be a problem for recruiting and affect Miller's ability to coach as effectively. I just don't see the basketball program being able to emerge from under the dark cloud unless systemic changes are made. Keeping a head coach that's widely notorious for cheating isn't a good look. Miller's window of opportunity has come and gone as far as I'm concerned. Repeatedly trying to pound the square peg in the round hole isn't working and that's not going to change. Ever.

[UALoco]

Scoreboard.

[ChooChooCat]

Let's be honest Sean Miller lost a lot of goodwill among the fanbase for obvious reasons. He earned a major pass based on the recruiting class he landed for this year, but the skepticism always remained. Now having 3 games in a row that were very similar, especially to a not very good St John's team without its best player is beyond concerning. People looking at him with a skeptic eye was only going to be magnified after that St John's game and you can't literally look around and ask why without being obtuse about the situation. Add that to the fact Miller has only landed one player in a recruiting class he will need at least 5 to field a team with any sort of depth and yeah our near future and distant future is certainly in question. It is what it is and I'm hard pressed in blaming any one for having their doubts.

[Merkin]

Miller should have a no-three pointer rule unless there is less than :12 on the shot clock and the ball has gone inside to Zeke in the post at least once.

Didn't Lute at one time have a 2 pass first rule before the first shot?

[midnightx]

There are few comparisons with the ‘97 team. Bibby was a rare talent, and Simon and Dickerson were juniors with a ton of experience. That trio was as good as any in the nation, that ultimately outmatched Kansas (Kansas’ guards were good, but not better) and UNC. I was living in KC at the time and told my fellow basketball enthusiasts that AZ was going to handle KU because I thought Bibby was superior to the overhyped Vaughan, AZ’s athletic guard play was an advantage, and AZ had three bigs to rotate to size up against KU’s superior front line. It almost didn’t work out when Billy Thomas started etching away at AZ’s comfortable lead with his barrage of 3’s. But I digress.

The current team doesn’t possess that sort of experience and underrated depth (I don’t see a player of Jason Terry’s caliber on the bench anywhere), and as talented as Nico is, he isn’t Mike Bibby circa 1996/1997. That said, maybe Nico and Josh get hot in the NCAA tournament and outmatch opponents based on an advantageous regional. Anything is possible.

[dmjcat]

It's interesting to hear how some of you are at the the end of your rope in December. Under Miller, the regular season success has been undeniable, and the frustration has previously focused on not reaching the Final Four.

It's one thing to be critical of the product at this point (and it has been atrocious for well over half the game in all three losses), but it's something else to be completely fed up and done with a coach before Christmas on his first season back after a year with a gutted roster after the Book and Schlabach scandals.

We need an emoticon with a bucktooth, slobbering mouth and that finger gesture going around in circles next to where the brain is.

You can make excuses for Miller or hold him accountable. I prefer the latter. The situation we were in last year was due to Miller's lack of institutional control. No one will ever convince me he had no idea what was going on with Book. He did and the program took a marked decline. Now the NCAA punishment looms over the program like the sword of damocles. The uncertainty in the basketball programs future will continue to be a problem for recruiting and affect Miller's ability to coach as effectively. I just don't see the basketball program being able to emerge from under the dark cloud unless systemic changes are made. Keeping a head coach that's widely notorious for cheating isn't a good look. Miller's window of opportunity has come and gone as far as I'm concerned. Repeatedly trying to pound the square peg in the round hole isn't working and that's not going to change. Ever.

I can't deny anything you have stated.

I still remain very concerned, however, that if we jettison Miller we might end up with the Basketball version of John Mackovic. I think the best way forward at this point is to stick it out with Miller, knowing that this years recruiting class is probably going to be negatively impacted by what the NCAA ends up doing. If Miller is able to recover from the impending sanctions in the 2021 & 2022 recruiting cycles then I still think its best to stand by the coach. If he is unable to return to his previous recruiting form following the sanctions then I believe a change is warranted.

[dmjcat]

I've never understood the common criticism of Miller because to me it sounds like people say he's a witch as a recruiter, a mediocre game coach, an unsophisticated and outmoded offensive coach, and an inflexible defense coach that's wrong for the players he has.

Whereas I think he's a top-notch game coach, and runs the right defense and offense for his personnel, but hasn't shown himself to be a good or strategic recruiter or evaluator of talent. Not a recruiting witch -- and that's precisely where he needs to adjust and improve significantly.

Mostly disagree.

In college recruiting you can't just pick who you want. You have to play with whatever you can recruit. Its up to the coach to adapt his offense/defense/style to the players that he actually has. And Miller is not a master of doing that.

[CatFanOneMil]

It's interesting to hear how some of you are at the the end of your rope in December. Under Miller, the regular season success has been undeniable, and the frustration has previously focused on not reaching the Final Four.

It's one thing to be critical of the product at this point (and it has been atrocious for well over half the game in all three losses), but it's something else to be completely fed up and done with a coach before Christmas on his first season back after a year with a gutted roster after the Book and Schlabach scandals.

We need an emoticon with a bucktooth, slobbering mouth and that finger gesture going around in circles next to where the brain is.

^^^This^^^

Of course if people have expectations of having zero losses in December with a "60% starters are freshman team" with a top tier recruiting class and still want a really tough OOC schedule to help the RPI and a 10-3 ranking is enough to consider firing the head coach I doubt there's anything anyone with a lick of common sense can say that will influence them to stop being little whiny bitches...

1. No loss December
2. Strong incoming recruiting class.
3. Maturity and tough OOC.

Pick 2.

[CalStateTempe]

No one is bitching about a no loss December but about looking shitty for 3/4 of the time in 3 games and not getting at least 1 of 3

Old habits resurrected in newer/different players.

[ChooChooCat]

No one is bitching about a no loss December but about looking shitty for 3/4 of the time in 3 games and not getting at least 1 of 3

Old habits resurrected in newer/different players.

Gotta love people taking a debate about a macro issue and trying to make it a micro one.

[SCCats]

I’d hire Tony Bennett at $3.5M a year to coach us right now.

Just as I advocated hiring him over Kevin O’Neill in 2008 at what would have been about $1.2M (he had just signed like a $800K a year contract after his first year at WSU).

[threenumberones]

And at some point that’s on coach if you don’t have the skill set to massage those egos to get buy in to stay with the program and if it’s too frustrating to deal with them, then you should be able to sniff the that out during the recruiting cycle and not offer.

That’s called EQ. The “it” factor. Most elite coaches have “it”.

Agree 100%. I've been saying this for years. Sean is a blue collar, system guy. He will always do more with less talent, and usually less with more. He gets the most out of TJ McConnel but never gets enough out of the guys like Lauri. Personally I think he should embrace his own strengths and recruit accordingly.

[Longhorned]

And at some point that’s on coach if you don’t have the skill set to massage those egos to get buy in to stay with the program and if it’s too frustrating to deal with them, then you should be able to sniff the that out during the recruiting cycle and not offer.

That’s called EQ. The “it” factor. Most elite coaches have “it”.

Agree 100%. I've been saying this for years. Sean is a blue collar, system guy. He will always do more with less talent, and usually less with more. He gets the most out of TJ McConnel but never gets enough out of the guys like Lauri. Personally I think he should embrace his own strengths and recruit accordingly.

What you're both saying contrasts with Lute, and it doesn't matter that Lute was from a different era because in this case, the principle still applies. I could see an argument against CST's point, but there's no point elaborating it because I don't think it would be true.

And there's another contrast with Lute: Lute's willing embrace of the reality that you can't consistently compete against the Grade A++ Programs for the top recruits, and so you need to pull the diamonds in the rough. That involves the art of scouting and talent evaluation. Whereas Lute showed himself to be accomplished in that art, Miller has so far tended to "win" the recruitment of the highest ranked high school/AAU players he can get his hands on. Sometimes they work out, and sometimes they don't. And when they do work out, they don't fit with the other parts.

Derek Williams isn't an exception because of the Floyd situation. Maybe Zeke Nnaji shows promise for Miller to better than he has previously in assessing potential. We'll see.

I think a lot of this discussion reflects the circumstance of following a legend with a promising, previously successful mid-major coach who takes a decade (so far) to learn and grow. When the chips don't fall as hoped, and the hopers all know the taste of Final Fours, a promising coach loses the allure of promise, and without that hope becomes too much to hold.

[ChooChooCat]

Derek Williams isn't an exception because of the Floyd situation. Maybe Zeke Nnaji shows promise for Miller to better than he has previously in assessing potential. We'll see.

How about Christian Koloko?

[Longhorned]

Derek Williams isn't an exception because of the Floyd situation. Maybe Zeke Nnaji shows promise for Miller to better than he has previously in assessing potential. We'll see.

How about Christian Koloko?

Yes. BUT coming from me, that "yes" is coming from a fan who watched a freshman Dusan and proclaimed him to be "a four star recruit in a five star reality." So let's not start listening to how impressed I am with Koloko's court awareness, positioning, timing, shot swatting, and soft touch. But I am.

[Beachcat97]

I’ve let some time pass since the St. John’s loss. I was at the game with my Dad and brother. Did not think there was *any* way we could lose to that team. They didn’t even have their leading scorer. And yet, another (increasingly characteristic) loss to a team with zero future NBA players. We have no fewer than three.

Through thick and thin, I’ve remained supportive of Miller. He’s earned our confidence. 5 league titles in 10 seasons is something very few Pac coaches have ever done. What is becoming apparent, though, is that Miller’s teams very rarely play well from the opening tip. Think about how many games we’ve needed to play from behind, sometimes getting down by so many early on that a comeback is just unattainable (Wichita St, Buffalo). Or the lead remains surmountable, but we come up short in the final minutes (Gonzaga ‘16 and ‘19, St. John’s). This of course neglects the many big wins Miller’s had at AZ. He has given this program and this fan base some spectacular moments, even if that one shining moment has remained elusive.

The reason I’m uneasy about firing Miller is because it’s not as though there’s an obvious successor waiting in the wings. Are you willing to go through our own version of a Gillespie at UK era? Or Tom Crean at Indiana? Or Alford at UCLA? I can’t imagine fans of those programs would recommend rolling the dice with the current coaching carousel. There are a lot of very average coaches out there, many of which would leap at the chance to coach Arizona. Or do we follow what Michigan just did and try our luck on a former star (Simon maybe) with little to no coaching experience? I don’t see a post-Miller scenario that looks all that appealing.

Even with the recent disappointments, I still think this current team can do big things. Nico, Josh and Zeke are very good players, but they’re also super young. We’d need a little luck for them to significantly mature by March. It could happen, though, and I’m excited to see this season play out. We can revisit the bigger question about Miller further down the road.

[Longhorned]

And yet, another (increasingly characteristic) loss to a team with zero future NBA players. We have no fewer than three.

Sorry you had to witness 32 minutes of shitshow in person, BC. FWIW, the pattern of three losses includes another pattern that's meaningful in the December base of a season's arc: experience.

For example, remember what future NBA player Stanley Johnson looked like against experienced teams in December of his only year in college basketball?

The Red Storm had to rely on one freshman for significant minutes against Arizona: a wing named Champagnie. He shot 0% from the field.

For Arizona, Green played like a freshman. Mannion was a turd for 32 minutes.

But St. Johns didn't just beat Arizona's future NBA players. The Arizona players that cemented the loss for Arizona on a night when two of its future NBA players played like freshmen were Baker, Smith, and Hazzard. All fucking three of them. If we walk up to the chalkboard and add it up, it equals fucking nothing from our entire backcourt other than - holy of holies! - finally a single 3-pointer from Hazzard that put us in a position to somehow win the game anyway.

[ChooChooCat]

The reason I’m uneasy about firing Miller is because it’s not as though there’s an obvious successor waiting in the wings. Are you willing to go through our own version of a Gillespie at UK era? Or Tom Crean at Indiana? Or Alford at UCLA? I can’t imagine fans of those programs would recommend rolling the dice with the current coaching carousel. There are a lot of very average coaches out there, many of which would leap at the chance to coach Arizona. Or do we follow what Michigan just did and try our luck on a former star (Simon maybe) with little to no coaching experience? I don’t see a post-Miller scenario that looks all that appealing.

I get it, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't right? Then again how many people pegged Sean Miller as Lute Olson's replacement? Btw don't bring up UCLA and Steve Alford, UCLA's issues and ignorance are unlike anywhere else quite frankly. Also remember before UCLA fired Ben Howland to hire Alford, they fired Steve Lavin to hire Howland, which was the absolutely correct move. There's risks, but there's also calculated risks. Boosters made the Sean Miller hire happen, will be interesting what they could make happen when motivated to do so. FWIW they are FIRMLY in Miller's corner as of today though, so it's all just talk on a message board until that changes.

[ByJoveByJingle]

So are the boosters just dumber than you guys? Or this is their version of not cutting bait on sunk costs? But I guess that just fits into option 1.

[Longhorned]

So are the boosters just dumber than you guys? Or this is their version of not cutting bait on sunk costs? But I guess that just fits into option 1.

Put it this way. I don’t hold a lot of stock in anyone on constant offer from the hostess at Cracker Barrel every time a toddler gets led to a table.

[ChooChooCat]

So are the boosters just dumber than you guys? Or this is their version of not cutting bait on sunk costs? But I guess that just fits into option 1.

I mean they like Sean Miller as a person and have faith he turn it around. I'm sure they're not inflexible on that latter part.

[Beachcat97]

But St. Johns didn't just beat Arizona's future NBA players. The Arizona players that cemented the loss for Arizona on a night when two of its future NBA players played like freshmen were Baker, Smith, and Hazzard. All fucking three of them. If we walk up to the chalkboard and add it up, it equals fucking nothing from our entire backcourt other than - holy of holies! - finally a single 3-pointer from Hazzard that put us in a position to somehow win the game anyway.

So. Damn. True.

I don’t know what’s up with Baker. He looked legitimately shaken in the SJU game. Every shot was stiff and timid. He passed up several open looks. Same with Nico. Nico’s slump is approaching epic proportions. I do expect him to turn it around, but with a trip to Eugene right around the corner, we really need the best version of Nico to show up soon.

I’m done with Smith. His entire game is launching threes. He’s streaky, so occasionally he’ll knock down a few. But more generally, he is a major liability on offense. No handles, no mid-range game.

I’m also dismayed at how poorly our guards box out on defense. How many offensive boards did SJ get? That just can’t happen.

The slow start seemed to doom us, though. You can’t expect to win many games when you’re 10 down for 35 minutes.

[CatFanOneMil]

No one is bitching about a no loss December but about looking shitty for 3/4 of the time in 3 games and not getting at least 1 of 3

Old habits resurrected in newer/different players.

I can guarantee if the Cats were undefeated now this portion of this thread would not exist.

If Nico's final shot goes in and an OT win, we'd bitch a little but be rubbing our bellies...same goes for Gonzaga.

We'd be complimenting how the freshmen started off scared but the mature players steadied the ship (in spite of that being a fantasy), we'd be praising their toughness and say things like "they fought through the shooting slump"...

No loss Dec and no whining go hand in hand.

[Longhorned]

So are the boosters just dumber than you guys? Or this is their version of not cutting bait on sunk costs? But I guess that just fits into option 1.

Put it this way. I don’t hold a lot of stock in anyone on constant offer from the hostess at Cracker Barrel every time a toddler gets led to a table.

Among candidates for worst post of the year, there’s a qualitative difference for those that come in week 51.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Christmas Longhorned is best Longhorned.

[RawleArenas]

No one is bitching about a no loss December but about looking shitty for 3/4 of the time in 3 games and not getting at least 1 of 3

Old habits resurrected in newer/different players.

I can guarantee if the Cats were undefeated now this portion of this thread would not exist.

If Nico's final shot goes in and an OT win, we'd bitch a little but be rubbing our bellies...same goes for Gonzaga.

We'd be complimenting how the freshmen started off scared but the mature players steadied the ship (in spite of that being a fantasy), we'd be praising their toughness and say things like "they fought through the shooting slump"...

No loss Dec and no whining go hand in hand.

So true. I'm much stronger on Miller than most fans. I've been around sports a long time and have worked in football and basketball, and I've always had good feelings about Sean Miller. But beyond that, you just don't toss someone who wins 75 percent of his games at a high major and has brought multiple generational talents to Tucson. Miller's not some random up and comer, he been great as a player and a coach.Yes, we should have beaten St. Johns, but I am optimistic about several things.

For starters, when we play bad, we make sure other teams play bad too. If we shoot slightly below our averages in three point shooting (say 35 percent), we can run most teams off the court.

Going forward, I think Miller is going to be more selective or just plain ruthless about evaluating certain transfers.

I see defensive potential with this unit. It's not 2014 level but effective enough to grind out a tourney game or two.

I get the feeling that a lot of AZ fans treat the program like they are waiting in the drive thru at Wendy's for 45 minutes. They don't know what they want. They get excited about top 5 classes, but get frustrated when they struggle because of experience issues. They want up tempo offenses AND elite level defense from guys who are adjusting to the season. You can't have a thousand pounds of candy without getting a stomach ache. Nobody gets everything.

FWIW, I've always felt that Mark Few and Miller are not that far apart at all. It's just that Few's players stay longer.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Look, here's how I see it. The most we can hope for is a coach who can recruit and win at a national contender level. It does not get better than that.

Sean Miller has proved he can do both. The FBI scandal was an unprecedented toll on a program. Do we trust in him to bring us out of it or a new coach who we hope can recruit and win at a national contender level? I think you have to default heavily to the guy who has shown he can do it. Otherwise, you bring in a new guy who just might fail to deliver at all, let alone not return us to that level.

[ChooChooCat]

I can guarantee if the Cats were undefeated now this portion of this thread would not exist.

Um yeah, but we haven't, and each of the 3 games we lost we performed very badly and very similarly, hence the issues. Bad losses provide an impact on fans, this is normal behavior. There's such a thing as a good loss. The Wisconsin Elite 8 game was a good loss, we played well, they just played better. Baylor wasn't shit for most of our game against them and we were worse. Gonzaga took us to the wood shed in the 2nd half, it was bad. St John's wasn't shit for the entire 2nd half against us and we were still worse.

It sucked, fans aren't happy, past issues are further put under the microscope, this is normal.

[dovecanyoncat]

And yet, another (increasingly characteristic) loss to a team with zero future NBA players. We have no fewer than three.

Sorry you had to witness 32 minutes of shitshow in person, BC. FWIW, the pattern of three losses includes another pattern that's meaningful in the December base of a season's arc: experience.

For example, remember what future NBA player Stanley Johnson looked like against experienced teams in December of his only year in college basketball?

The Red Storm had to rely on one freshman for significant minutes against Arizona: a wing named Champagnie. He shot 0% from the field.

For Arizona, Green played like a freshman. Mannion was a turd for 32 minutes.

But St. Johns didn't just beat Arizona's future NBA players. The Arizona players that cemented the loss for Arizona on a night when two of its future NBA players played like freshmen were Baker, Smith, and Hazzard. All fucking three of them. If we walk up to the chalkboard and add it up, it equals fucking nothing from our entire backcourt other than - holy of holies! - finally a single 3-pointer from Hazzard that put us in a position to somehow win the game anyway.

The Barcello effect extends to other players too.

[Beachcat97]

No one is bitching about a no loss December but about looking shitty for 3/4 of the time in 3 games and not getting at least 1 of 3

Old habits resurrected in newer/different players.

I can guarantee if the Cats were undefeated now this portion of this thread would not exist.

If Nico's final shot goes in and an OT win, we'd bitch a little but be rubbing our bellies...same goes for Gonzaga.

We'd be complimenting how the freshmen started off scared but the mature players steadied the ship (in spite of that being a fantasy), we'd be praising their toughness and say things like "they fought through the shooting slump"...

No loss Dec and no whining go hand in hand.

The what-if game can be played any number of ways. What if we go 18-0 in the Pac? What if we reach the Final Four this year? What if Stone Gettings returns and makes a much bigger impact than most expect?

You're right: if we were undefeated right now, this turn in the thread may not even exist. If we'd beaten Baylor, Zaga and SJU, there's a decent chance we'd be ranked #1 right now, which is crazy.

But the reality is that we're starting Pac play on a losing streak, and opportunities for quality wins will now become more scarce. The pressure will increase, particularly with "games we're supposed to win" (ie: any game vs. someone other than Oregon, UW or Colorado).

[Captain Obvious]

I can guarantee if the Cats were undefeated now this portion of this thread would not exist.

Um yeah, but we haven't, and each of the 3 games we lost we performed very badly and very similarly, hence the issues. Bad losses provide an impact on fans, this is normal behavior. There's such a thing as a good loss. The Wisconsin Elite 8 game was a good loss, we played well, they just played better. Baylor wasn't shit for most of our game against them and we were worse. Gonzaga took us to the wood shed in the 2nd half, it was bad. St John's wasn't shit for the entire 2nd half against us and we were still worse.

It sucked, fans aren't happy, past issues are further put under the microscope, this is normal.

IMHO there's never a such thing as a 'good loss'. Probably the most annoying phrase in sports. I guess it's all part of the everyone gets a trophy era. Not sure. I just wish people wouldn't say it because it makes no sense and has no basis in reality. Losing sucks whether it's by one point or one hundred. It's never good.

[ChooChooCat]

I can guarantee if the Cats were undefeated now this portion of this thread would not exist.

Um yeah, but we haven't, and each of the 3 games we lost we performed very badly and very similarly, hence the issues. Bad losses provide an impact on fans, this is normal behavior. There's such a thing as a good loss. The Wisconsin Elite 8 game was a good loss, we played well, they just played better. Baylor wasn't shit for most of our game against them and we were worse. Gonzaga took us to the wood shed in the 2nd half, it was bad. St John's wasn't shit for the entire 2nd half against us and we were still worse.

It sucked, fans aren't happy, past issues are further put under the microscope, this is normal.

IMHO there's never a such thing as a 'good loss'. Probably the most annoying phrase in sports. I guess it's all part of the everyone gets a trophy era. Not sure. I just wish people wouldn't say it because it makes no sense and has no basis in reality. Losing sucks whether it's by one point or one hundred. It's never good.

Ok. There's losing ugly and losing not as ugly. We lost ugly as hell for 3 games in a row.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Are we talking ugly like only 3 players scored for your team and you lost by 40 points, or we had nearly last-possession opportunities to tie the game ugly? Somehow I feel like we’ve lost the plot a bit and we are focusing on Brad Pitt’s acne scars.

[CatFanOneMil]

I can guarantee if the Cats were undefeated now this portion of this thread would not exist.

Um yeah, but we haven't, and each of the 3 games we lost we performed very badly and very similarly, hence the issues. Bad losses provide an impact on fans, this is normal behavior. There's such a thing as a good loss. The Wisconsin Elite 8 game was a good loss, we played well, they just played better. Baylor wasn't shit for most of our game against them and we were worse. Gonzaga took us to the wood shed in the 2nd half, it was bad. St John's wasn't shit for the entire 2nd half against us and we were still worse.

It sucked, fans aren't happy, past issues are further put under the microscope, this is normal.

IMHO there's never a such thing as a 'good loss'. Probably the most annoying phrase in sports. I guess it's all part of the everyone gets a trophy era. Not sure. I just wish people wouldn't say it because it makes no sense and has no basis in reality. Losing sucks whether it's by one point or one hundred. It's never good.

Ok. There's losing ugly and losing not as ugly. We lost ugly as hell for 3 games in a row.

While I agree it was ugly, SOME of it is not outside the norm...

Every freshman hits a wall and underperforms, we saw that with Nico and it appears Zeke has shaken his version off...Nico will as well, and Green just seems to be a beast but he will have his off moments, maybe on defense or a bad shooting slump.

We have also seen the Jeter and Dylan Smith pony no-show...where Dylan jacks up three's like they were nacho chips at a tail gate party and Jeter goes soft as butter on picnic table at Reid Park in July...happens now more than it does not happen.

Ira Lee still manages to give away a possession within his first 4 touches, and fouls really late in the defensive clock, he's pretty much the same as always.

What is new to us is the Baker/Hazzard bad game metric combined with any of the other conditions...and it appears that if you get the Baker/Hazzard clusterfuck tangled up with the Jeter/Smith virus, season it with a little too much Nico shooting off then there is no team out there that cannot beat us.

Fix two of these things and we compete...fix all of them and our expectations can be justified.

[EVCat]

What makes you think about jumping?

Early on from Miller's days at Xavier to his 1st several years at Arizona, I always felt like Miller maximized the talent he brought in. He recruited hard working tough guys that gave him everything they had. This success brought his recruiting to a new level of talent, but that new level of talent is not working for Miller. It seems to me that Miller's coaching style does not really work for whatever reason with these elite level players. I think Miller would be more successful with tough guys with a little chip on their shoulder with something to prove. I'm now starting to think that Arizona is not the place Miller needs to thrive and vice versa.

I think this is where people fail to properly understand the importance of assistant coaches.

We are all upset that CSM stuck with Book...but Book was that guy that played "good cop" or "Uncle Book"...who kept things light when they needed to be light, and before the problems, knew how to move Sean just a little bit, get a smile or whatever. He could also be an intense, in your face guy, but Book's role was why he was coveted by Dawkins and other Miller...the players would listen to him.

Then, you need an assistant who is that guy who never had the personality to be the guy out front, but knows his Xs and Os and can just see those little tweaks that need to be made to maximize performance within a system. It's Sean's system, his dominant voice, but assistants are often the ones working with the players to correct physical mistakes.

The FBI thing and Heeke have served to raid the balance we need on the bench. I think Murphy is a great add for a couple of these reasons, but Phelps was invaluable, and for better or worse, we need a Book. But you can't just hire Book's. They are usually with a coach for a long time.

This isn't everything, of course. But our bench has been turned over, and not just by players. Think of the staff we had in 2010-11, or in 2014...no idea how much the instability has affected our ability to get top assistants, and not a rehab year like with Romar, but guys who will be there and make players better. I think we have started to rebuild that, but it is still a hot seat until we know what happens.

I liken it to football with Stoops, when he had Sonny Dykes and Mark Stoops as OC and DC, lost both, and we really didn't match that level of talent in replacing them. Then Stoops had personal issues, but there were cracks before that. Assistants matter

[EVCat]

No one will ever convince me he had no idea what was going on with Book.

You believe Nike-paid Miller knew that his assistant was accepting money for himself (or his own recruiting, but still, for his own performance) from a runner for an agent with ties to Adidas to convince players to go to that agency?

Really?

Miller was willing to go along with fucking the shoe company he and his program are aligned with so Book could get $5K a pop for delivering fresh meat, which in zero way helped Miller's program, because, let's be real...that money wasn't needed to get a recruit.

So Miller knew about and was cool with Book running side game, using Miller's program, helping Miller's corporate partner's rival, for something that had zero potential to positively impact said program?

Wow?

[Beachcat97]

Somehow I feel like we’ve lost the plot a bit and we are focusing on Brad Pitt’s acne scars.

I'm not sure this team is Brad Pitt, Jove. We're more akin at this point to a talented up-and-coming actor. Some great performances but also some flops.

[zonagrad]

Somehow I feel like we’ve lost the plot a bit and we are focusing on Brad Pitt’s acne scars.

I'm not sure this team is Brad Pitt, Jove. We're more akin at this point to a talented up-and-coming actor. Some great performances but also some flops.

Tom Hanks was in “Joe vs. the Volcano” and “Cloud Atlas.” Nobody’s perfect.

[Merkin]

Somehow I feel like we’ve lost the plot a bit and we are focusing on Brad Pitt’s acne scars.

I'm not sure this team is Brad Pitt, Jove. We're more akin at this point to a talented up-and-coming actor. Some great performances but also some flops.

Tom Hanks was in “Joe vs. the Volcano” and “Cloud Atlas.” Nobody’s perfect.

Bonfire of the Vanities. They just destroyed a fantastic book.

[dovecanyoncat]

Bonfire of the Vanities. They just destroyed a fantastic book.

Brother, truer words have never been said.