Sean Miller

[UAEebs86]

Since the the UA has to pay Sumlin $7.5M I imagine an extension is in order just for that reason.

With just one year left on his contract you don't really need a payoff. You're coaching for your job in the last year; show us something. Or keep losing to Oregon State at home. Either way.

We lost to Oregon State at home?

[SCCats]

Since the the UA has to pay Sumlin $7.5M I imagine an extension is in order just for that reason.

With just one year left on his contract you don't really need a payoff. You're coaching for your job in the last year; show us something. Or keep losing to Oregon State at home. Either way.

We lost to Oregon State at home?

Oh did we beat them? A surprise!

[gronk4heisman]

I am not really sure what your point you are trying to make is, but I do not believe we have lost to Oregon St at home since Millers first year.

[Beachcat97]

The uncertainty surrounding Miller can't be helping recruiting.

[zonagrad]

The uncertainty surrounding Miller can't be helping recruiting.

Miller managed to sign three recruits for next season. Shane Nowell from Seattle is a top 100 6'5" swingman. Miller is not selling immediate playing time for next season. Arizona will have a senior point guard in Akinjo and Kriisa as a sophomore. Mathurin (hopefully) will be a returning wing along with Terry and Baker.

Everyone is returning next season and can plausibly (not likely) return in 2022-23 except for Akinjo. Miller shifted his recruiting strategy to get more roster stability. He can strategically target specific talents who are likely to go one and done. But that's not an overall recipe for succes (see Kentucky & Duke this season).

[Spaceman Spiff]

The uncertainty surrounding Miller can't be helping recruiting.

Miller managed to sign three recruits for next season. Shane Nowell from Seattle is a top 100 6'5" swingman. Miller is not selling immediate playing time for next season. Arizona will have a senior point guard in Akinjo and Kriisa as a sophomore. Mathurin (hopefully) will be a returning wing along with Terry and Baker.

Everyone is returning next season and can plausibly (not likely) return in 2022-23 except for Akinjo. Miller shifted his recruiting strategy to get more roster stability. He can strategically target specific talents who are likely to go one and done. But that's not an overall recipe for succes (see Kentucky & Duke this season).

We've probably been negative recruited for quite a bit based on the FBI and Miller. I do agree Miller seems to have shifted recruiting philosophy, though.

Next year's class is all guys who aren't 5 stars, but are talented and with upside to realize in multiple years in a program. That's sort of the case this year as well.

My hope is that this will turn out in the good way. When Akinjo leaves, KJ will be ready to step up. When Mathurin leaves (which will hopefully be one more year) Nowell will be ready.

Fewer instant impact guys, but more of an aim at players being ready to do their thing as sophs.

[TheCat]

Sean has made it to 300 wins in less time then Lute.....would be a mistake not to give him what he wants. Unlike some I like his temperament when it comes to losing. He hates it.

[MountainCat]

Sean has made it to 300 wins in less time then Lute.....would be a mistake not to give him what he wants. Unlike some I like his temperament when it comes to losing. He hates it.

He hates it...

...and takes it personal., Even accepts ownership for loses, unlike other coaches who first blame it on a missed foul, or bad officiating, or not teaching his own players flop enough, etc, etc, etc.

Miller is our coach and things are looking good. Give him his extension for 2-3 years. When we get back to the Elite eight again (or FF) extend him back to a 5 year contract.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Sean has made it to 300 wins in less time then Lute.....would be a mistake not to give him what he wants. Unlike some I like his temperament when it comes to losing. He hates it.

The counterpoint you'll get is that the last three years have not been at Arizona's (or Miller's own) standards.

For me, the relevant question is whether that's a reflection of fallout from FBI/NCAA or that he's lost the touch? I obviously tend towards giving him the chance to show it was external factors with his new recruiting approach.

[zonagrad]

If Arizona cuts ties with Miller and moves on, I don't know how you would expect to find success in the next 2-3 years. It would be a total rebuild with the first two seasons set around revamping a depleted roster. Sacking Miller would crater that program -- and then you'd really be stuck with a Jim Boylen type hire.

Those that are Miller's biggest critics are convinced the next guy will be a big name with a cache of recruiting credibility.

Livengood had to beg Miller to come to Arizona after he turned them down the first time. Don't think we'll be that lucky again.

[Spaceman Spiff]

If Arizona cuts ties with Miller and moves on, I don't know how you would expect to find success in the next 2-3 years. It would be a total rebuild with the first two seasons set around revamping a depleted roster. Sacking Miller would crater that program -- and then you'd really be stuck with a Jim Boylen type hire.

Those that are Miller's biggest critics are convinced the next guy will be a big name with a cache of recruiting credibility.

Livengood had to beg Miller to come to Arizona after he turned them down the first time. Don't think we'll be that lucky again.

I'm not quite that negative. I do think some talent would stay and that a lot of the raw materials of Arizona basketball are still quite positive, like fan support and recruiting base.

The flip side is that the IARP has to weigh against us in a coaching search. Every new potential coach is going to be concerned they'd get scholarship limits or a postseason ban right off the bat unless that's finished, which it won't be any time soon.

Thing is, look at reasonable other candidates. I would say Eric Mussleman is a legit candidate. This is his 6th year coaching. At Nevada, he had 3 tourney appearances and 3 conference titles. One Elite Eight and two first round L's. He's improved Arky to a projected 7 seed this year.

That said, other than him being not Sean Miller, what aspect of his coaching resume stands out vs Miller? That's what I struggle to see with candidates, the way in which they really outdo what we already have, other than by virtue of newness.

[U.P. Zona Fan]

Ok, I am not for getting rid of miller, however, there are some coaches that I liked that I'm not sure people were talking about.

Nate Oates is having a good run a bama, if we would have parted ways a couple years ago that could have been a possibility.

Porter Moser, he's gonna be a hot commodity soon.
I think these are super obvious, but I remember after the buffalo game thinking that if we parted ways with miller we needed to go after Oates. If we were to part ways after this season and get Porter Moser, we need to somehow get sister Jean to at least pray for us.

I like Miller, but if thing didn't work out, I could like either of these guys.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Porter Moser, he's gonna be a hot commodity soon.
I think these are super obvious, but I remember after the buffalo game thinking that if we parted ways with miller we needed to go after Oates. If we were to part ways after this season and get Porter Moser, we need to somehow get sister Jean to at least pray for us.

I like Miller, but if thing didn't work out, I could like either of these guys.

It's very hard for me to share your enthusiasm about Moser. He got fired at Illinois State and has been to the tourney two of ten years at Loyola (I'm counting this year as his second tourney appearance because they're likely in as an at large).

[Chicat]

Also, if any of you dislike the way Sean Miller reacts after losses, you REALLY don’t want to see Porter Moser on the Arizona bench.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Also, if any of you dislike the way Sean Miller reacts after losses, you REALLY don’t want to see Porter Moser on the Arizona bench.

I would melt very, very, very hard if we fired Sean Miller and hired Porter Moser.

To date, Moser has one tourney appearance in 16 years as an HC, got fired at Illinois State and has never coached at a higher level than the MVC. He's 52, so it's not like he's a young guy who hasn't had a chance to be good.

I think Miller should return, but at least I could deal with someone like Mussleman or Oats as a replacement and not lose my mind. Moser would make me lose my mind.

[AzCatFan2]

Miller deserves to stay, barring a hammer from the IARP. If we do get nailed, however, Miller will have to go, and our search will be a difficult one. We'll be under heavy punishments and a likely ban from tournament play for at least one additional year, if not more. Coaches at other BCS schools will likely not want to move, because short term, again, assuming a hammer punishment, Alabama Basketball would be more attractive than Arizona.

If we need to part ways with Miller because of increased punishments, then a guy like Oates might be too far a reach. We would need Plan B type guys, and probably a guy with either roots to the program and/or roots to Lute. Damon Stoudamire had his best year at Pacific last year, and would take the job at Arizona even if we were facing a 2-year tournament ban and scholarship limitations. The fans would instantly get behind Mighty Mouse, and while it would be a gamble, if it pays off, great. If not, in four or five years or so, we could start looking at A-listers again, with all the FBI stuff far behind us.

Again, this is only if we get a nasty punishment from the board. If we get off with just the time served of the self-punishment, no reason to let Miller go. He knows how to build a winner at Arizona, and will have a loaded roster next year, that with a full practice and pre-season schedule, can be a Final Four contender in my opinion.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Miller deserves to stay, barring a hammer from the IARP. If we do get nailed, however, Miller will have to go, and our search will be a difficult one. We'll be under heavy punishments and a likely ban from tournament play for at least one additional year, if not more. Coaches at other BCS schools will likely not want to move, because short term, again, assuming a hammer punishment, Alabama Basketball would be more attractive than Arizona.

I'm not so sure a guy like Oats or Musselman would be out of our league, even if we get additional punishment.

The thing about Alabama and Arkansas (lesser extent at Arkansas), they're in a football centric culture. You will always be a distant #2 at Alabama. At Arkansas, you'll be less distant, but you aren't outdoing football unless football sucks and you're NC level.

Arizona's calling card is that you're #1 in town at a regional power. That will never happen at Alabama.

Edit: and yes, the automatic subtext in any Miller discussion is that we can't keep him if there's any big likelihood the IARP levies significant penalties directly vs him.

[WildcatStunner]

If we cannot hold onto Miller cause of punishments, I wouldn’t mind Chris Jans. That said, I doubt the university would touch him because of his incident at Bowling Green.

[AzCatFan2]

Miller deserves to stay, barring a hammer from the IARP. If we do get nailed, however, Miller will have to go, and our search will be a difficult one. We'll be under heavy punishments and a likely ban from tournament play for at least one additional year, if not more. Coaches at other BCS schools will likely not want to move, because short term, again, assuming a hammer punishment, Alabama Basketball would be more attractive than Arizona.

I'm not so sure a guy like Oats or Musselman would be out of our league, even if we get additional punishment.

The thing about Alabama and Arkansas (lesser extent at Arkansas), they're in a football centric culture. You will always be a distant #2 at Alabama. At Arkansas, you'll be less distant, but you aren't outdoing football unless football sucks and you're NC level.

Arizona's calling card is that you're #1 in town at a regional power. That will never happen at Alabama.

Edit: and yes, the automatic subtext in any Miller discussion is that we can't keep him if there's any big likelihood the IARP levies significant penalties directly vs him.

Arkansas had Nolan Richardson, 40 minutes of hell, and a Basketball National Championship. I know, because I was there as a member of the Arizona Pep Band. Alabama has an AD that knows the value of a top notch basketball program, coming from Arizona, and knows it's possible for a football school to do well in both at the same time. See Florida, circa the mid 2000s. Success in one sport is not mutually exclusive to both.

Assuming the IARP hammers us, which I believe to be doubtful, thus making this conversation moot, but assuming we get hammered, the short-term outlook at schools like Alabama and Arkansas will be significantly better than Arizona. Whereas we'd be facing significant scholarship reductions and likely tournament bans, Arkansas and Alabama could have top 25 teams and dreams of Sweet 16's and beyond. And guys like Oats or Musselman could be facing a decision like Billy Donovan had at Florida, which was go to Kentucky and dominate, or build a legacy and have the floor named after him at their respective school. At Arizona, if the hammer drops, harder to legacy build.

The best analogy might be Kentucky before they hired Pitino. Pitino, coming from Providence, was not and is not your typical Kentucky hire. They have generally hired from other BCS level schools, like Tubby Smith or Billy Gillespie. Calipari came from Memphis, but remember, he had also coached in the NBA after having success at UMass. For Kentucky, Pitino was top of the B list, and they were lucky to catch lightning in a bottle with the hire.

[TheCat]

We should do all we can to keep Miller. Kelvin Sampson is the coach if we can't. He had a good record at WSU and was actually hired to coach Indiana till some NCAA problems. He has Houston in the top 10 and can recruit. Stay with Miller if we had half a brain.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Arkansas had Nolan Richardson, 40 minutes of hell, and a Basketball National Championship. I know, because I was there as a member of the Arizona Pep Band. Alabama has an AD that knows the value of a top notch basketball program, coming from Arizona, and knows it's possible for a football school to do well in both at the same time. See Florida, circa the mid 2000s. Success in one sport is not mutually exclusive to both.

I don't mean you can't have success in both. I mean Alabama and to a lesser extent Arkansas will never regard basketball like football.

In 2007, Florida was coming off it's first ever national championship in basketball and headed for a repeat. They averaged 11,802 fans in a 12,000 seat arena.

In 2007, Florida football averaged 90,388 fans attending in a stadium with a listed capacity of 88,548. As good as Florida was at basketball, basketball was never #1 there.

Baylor is better than Kentucky this year. Baylor will never be Kentucky. Arizona is a basketball school and if you succeed, you'll be something you can't be at Arkansas or Alabama. We aren't building statues of football coaches.

[Spaceman Spiff]

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketbal ... 8L8_H-QITM

Interesting article from AZ Desert Swarm with Miller quotes. He said he doesn't think there will be much roster turnover, which is definitely what I want to hear.

[Beachcat97]

Why haven't we extended Miller yet? Am I missing something?

[Postmaster]

Won’t Akinjo have 2 years left after this season?


Might as well keep Miller if your next choice is Sampson. Based on violations, not coaching.

[IndianaZonaFan]

Yes this Akinjo’s Junior season. He gets a redo for this year plus his senior season.

[AzCatFan2]

Arkansas had Nolan Richardson, 40 minutes of hell, and a Basketball National Championship. I know, because I was there as a member of the Arizona Pep Band. Alabama has an AD that knows the value of a top notch basketball program, coming from Arizona, and knows it's possible for a football school to do well in both at the same time. See Florida, circa the mid 2000s. Success in one sport is not mutually exclusive to both.

I don't mean you can't have success in both. I mean Alabama and to a lesser extent Arkansas will never regard basketball like football.

In 2007, Florida was coming off it's first ever national championship in basketball and headed for a repeat. They averaged 11,802 fans in a 12,000 seat arena.

In 2007, Florida football averaged 90,388 fans attending in a stadium with a listed capacity of 88,548. As good as Florida was at basketball, basketball was never #1 there.

Baylor is better than Kentucky this year. Baylor will never be Kentucky. Arizona is a basketball school and if you succeed, you'll be something you can't be at Arkansas or Alabama. We aren't building statues of football coaches.

Alabama is currently #8 in the country. Next year, could be better, and Oates could be building, potentially, a program at Tuscaloosa like Donovan built at Florida. Sure, #2 sport at the school, but capable of winning multiple National Championships. Think he gives that up to come to Tucson, where if we get hit hard with sanctions, won't be eligible for the tournament right away and will have scholarship restrictions? A bird in the hand, as they say. Assuming Oates can build off his current success at Alabama, he could get to a Final Four and win it all in the next three years. He doesn't give that up for a chance to rebuild Arizona and have to wait a minimum of a few years to get to that level because of penalties, regardless of how much better a basketball school Arizona is compared to Alabama.

Mussleman, maybe. But Arky is currently #24 in the AP poll and again, could be better next year. Mussleman has more west coast ties, but it's not like Arkansas is Alabama when it comes to football. Arkansas has a Basketball NC and multiple Final Fours on its record, and hasn't been a football playoff contender at all since the playoff inception. Again, would a coach give up the opportunity for a Final Four for a minimum 3-year rebuild?

Last, you forget something that both Arky and Alabama have more than Arizona. Money. SEC television contracts are much more lucrative, and we're going to be paying off Sumlin for a while. Anything we can offer to Oates or Mussleman, the SEC schools can match and/or increase. Assuming again we get hit hard with sanctions, the polish off the Arizona Basketball brand will suffer a bit, which means less national TV games, and no tournament games, which will also mean less money.

Long term, sure, Arizona will likely have a better basketball record than Arkansas and Alabama, but coaches don't think long term, especially in an industry that is completely, "What have you done for me lately!" And if Arizona gets hammered by the IARP, the comparison makes Arky and Bama better jobs over a five-year period. If we don't get hit hard, Miller stays.

[Spaceman Spiff]

AZCatFan2, I think we may just disagree. I see value inherent to a coach in being a basketball school. Alabama clearly isn't. Arkansas, the 40 Minutes of Hell Hogs were over a quarter century in the past, and the South just doesn't care about basketball like it does football.

A consensus top ten job matters too. Arkansas has had three top 25 recruiting classes in the past 10 years. Alabama's had 6.

Arizona has been in the top 25 in 10 of 10 years. We've been top ten in 7 of 10 years (somehow, the AG, RHJ, Pitts class was only #11 nationally).

Mick Cronin and Chris Mack left better rosters for UCLA and Louisville. Why? Because you can hit home runs at UCLA and Louisville. That's what Arizona sells. The best recruiting classes that Arky/Bama have ever gotten, you can get those every year at Arizona.

And maybe I'm delusional, but I don't see a rebuild much in order. We have talent and the thing about college basketball is a single recruiting class can accomplish a rebuild. At Kentucky, Calipari landed Wall, Cousins, Bledsoe and Orton in his first class and took a 22-14 team to 35-3. Year after, they made a Final Four. Year after that, National Championship.

[gronk4heisman]

I would argue the scraps form the football program in an SEC program have more long term upside then the first servings from a top program in the failing PAC 12 (thanks Larry!). Cuonzo Marin (!!!) gets paid more by his school than Sean Miller, and while pay is not everything it sure means a lot. The SEC can afford to provide these coaches top of the line amenities, pay, perks and facilities. The Pac 12 is at a point where they are closer to a mid major conference then a power 5 and if that does not get turned around quickly then Arizona's next hire I think will be a major disappointment.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I would argue the scraps form the football program in an SEC program have more long term upside then the first servings from a top program in the failing PAC 12 (thanks Larry!). Cuonzo Marin (!!!) gets paid more by his school than Sean Miller, and while pay is not everything it sure means a lot. The SEC can afford to provide these coaches top of the line amenities, pay, perks and facilities. The Pac 12 is at a point where they are closer to a mid major conference then a power 5 and if that does not get turned around quickly then Arizona's next hire I think will be a major disappointment.

Eh, not at all sure it's like that. Here's the 2020 salary structure.

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salari ... all/coach/

Miller's #22 is a little misleading because it's more bonus heavy than people ahead of him. The Pac is closer to a midmajor in football than basketball. We have 4 coaches in the top 25 of salary vs the SEC at 5 and Big 10 at 2.

Comparing to Arky and Bama, Miller's total pay is about 700k more and that jumps to about 1.3-4 mil when you consider potential bonuses.

[azcat49]

Just seems like the worst time to make a change given the roster, the NCAA deal and our finances. Seems like Robbins is a glow in feeling like he can find the right guy even though his football guy hasn’t coached a minute yet

[AzCatFan2]

AZCatFan2, I think we may just disagree. I see value inherent to a coach in being a basketball school. Alabama clearly isn't. Arkansas, the 40 Minutes of Hell Hogs were over a quarter century in the past, and the South just doesn't care about basketball like it does football.

A consensus top ten job matters too. Arkansas has had three top 25 recruiting classes in the past 10 years. Alabama's had 6.

Arizona has been in the top 25 in 10 of 10 years. We've been top ten in 7 of 10 years (somehow, the AG, RHJ, Pitts class was only #11 nationally).

Mick Cronin and Chris Mack left better rosters for UCLA and Louisville. Why? Because you can hit home runs at UCLA and Louisville. That's what Arizona sells. The best recruiting classes that Arky/Bama have ever gotten, you can get those every year at Arizona.

And maybe I'm delusional, but I don't see a rebuild much in order. We have talent and the thing about college basketball is a single recruiting class can accomplish a rebuild. At Kentucky, Calipari landed Wall, Cousins, Bledsoe and Orton in his first class and took a 22-14 team to 35-3. Year after, they made a Final Four. Year after that, National Championship.

If the FBI investigation never happened, and Miller left us for the NBA next year with no IARP cloud hanging over us, I'd agree with you. We are a better job than Arkansas and Alabama, and with no scholarship limits/tourney bans, we could pull an Oates or Mussleman. But assuming we need to part ways with Miller due to NCAA penalties, that changes the calculus, especially short term. And that calculus for guys like Oates or Musselman could literally be stay and have a shot at a Final Four next year, or come to Arizona and have no shot at the tournament because we received additional sanctions.

In addition, guys like Mack, Cronin, and Miller left mid-major schools, with mid-major budgets. Money isn't everything, but these guys were not going to get the pay or exposure at a mid-major like they get at a UCLA, Louisville, and Arizona. And again, under non IARP cloud conditions, Arizona can pull the best mid-major coach they want, which is what we did with Miller. Miller didn't want to leave Xavier, but the pull of Arizona is just too great. But add a cloud of further sanctions and that has to weigh into the calculations of any potential coach.

Fortunately, I believe our discussion will be moot, as I don't see the IARP hammer coming down with sanctions large enough to warrant having to part ways with Miller. I also see our roster next year will be much like it is now, with some additional talent, that with a proper off-season and pre-season, will could translate into a top-10 team next year.

[IndianaZonaFan]

GB must still watch this board, cus they just locked up Oates hahaha

[Chicat]

Greg Byrne is Captain Obvious.

[Spaceman Spiff]

GB must still watch this board, cus they just locked up Oates hahaha

FWIW, I maintain we could have contended for Oats given that if the # quoted for his yearly salary is total pre-bonus pay, it's about 200k less than we're giving Miller pre-bonus.

But, I'd rather keep Miller anyways.

[U.P. Zona Fan]

I forgot about John beilein. He needs to retire in a warm climate.

I still want to keep Miller, but beilein is a good coach.

[U.P. Zona Fan]

I also agree this is a top 15 team at worst next year if we keep the key components and we keep Miller.

[DrWildcat]

A lot of people are high on next year but damn do we need to improve a lot!

[BeardownZonaZona]

Oh yeah. I was very high on next year. But holy crap we've looked bad lately. I still have a feeling we're gonna lose these kids

[ChooChooCat]

It’s time guys. This is a pointless endeavor to continue this marriage.

[Beachcat97]

It’s time guys. This is a pointless endeavor to continue this marriage.

Wow. That bad, eh?

I couldn't watch the game but expected this outcome. I've always said the best measure of a coach is whether a team improves between November and March. Does that happen consistently with Miller?

[TheCat]

It’s time guys. This is a pointless endeavor to continue this marriage.

Overreaction to a miserable loss. I think he is the leader in wins in the PAC. Most sweeps and has done a hell of a job recruiting with the NCAA stuff. He is about to beat Lute's record to 300 wins but I will concede against far easier competition. How many freshman are we starting along with Koloko who is/was a huge project. The NCAA stuff has killed any momentum this program had. Question is can we get it back?

[goslingswagg]

It’s time guys. This is a pointless endeavor to continue this marriage.

needs to end...I don’t think we can afford to continue to let the program erode like this.

problem is - who is a good realistic hire? Dutcher? Beilein? As caretakers for the short term? I wish Kelvin Sampson didn’t have his past. No west coast experience but we could probably hire McDermott? Idk. The options aren’t good at all.

[AZCatGirl]

Even though I don't think Miller is the longterm answer, I don't think it's fair to fire him after year one of a rebuild. He's finally getting away from the one and dones and you don't want to give these guys a chance to grow?

[dmjcat]

Even though I don't think Miller is the longterm answer, I don't think it's fair to fire him after year one of a rebuild. He's finally getting away from the one and dones and you don't want to give these guys a chance to grow?

I have been hearing this "Change of recruiting strategy" "Getting away from the one and dones" all year.

I call BS. The reality is the One and Dones are getting away from Miller. Miller hasn't stopped recruiting the 5 stars.......he's just not signing them. Look at this year (Banchero, Bittle). He's not closing as in years past.

[Captain Obvious]

It’s time guys. This is a pointless endeavor to continue this marriage.

Couldn't agree more. Time to lower the boom especially after we lose to USC again. Enough is enough.

[ralmom22]

Seriously wondering if he even wants an extension? Maybe he is done with us....

[Captain Obvious]

Seriously wondering if he even wants an extension? Maybe he is done with us....

Done with us? More like done us in. The sooner he's gone, the better. He's become a cancer to the program. Unfortunately that drunk who posed as our football coach for 3 years makes getting rid of Miller very difficult from a financial perspective. Failure pays very well for head coaches these days. Unbelievable.

[Postmaster]

I can’t imagine we do fire him while the investigation is still going on. You’d have to hire a caretaker then hire someone to rebuild.
Idk, maybe Russ Pennal is available?

I know there were a lot of issues but we could sure use DD with his ability to get to the rim and be taller than 6’.

[Chicat]

I still want to see him get a two year extension. Especially if it happens while the season is still going on. Let’s the current team know there will be stability so they aren’t looking around at other options.

[84Cat]