Tommy Lloyd

[Spaceman Spiff]

I suppose we could compare Nico's freshman year to other big-minute AZ PGs in their first year.

Nico - 14ppg, 5.3apg, 2.5rpg, 39%FG, 79%FT
Bibby - 13.5, 5.2, 3.2, 44%, 70%
Gardner - 12.6, 4.8, 3.7, 37%, 72%
Shakur - 9.4, 4.5, 3.6, 51%, 80%
Bayless - 19.7, 4.0, 2.7, 45%, 83%
McConnell (junior transfer) - 8.4, 5.3, 3.6, 45%, 62%

Statistically, Nico compares VERY favorably to our best PGs. I would ask, Spiff, whether you consider Nico's overall impact as a freshman to be as significant as some of these others. Are these statistical measures the only way we can account for a player's impact? How many big shots did Nico hit? How many times did he come up big or flat in a critical game? With some of these others -- particularly Bibby, Gardner and McConnell -- their presence on the court was often the difference between a win and a loss. Is the same true of Nico?

Anyway, didn't mean to drag this on. Appreciate the conversation.

Perhaps I'm a Nico fanboy, but here's my thoughts. Bibby was flanked by Simon and Dickerson on the perimeter, vs Nico's Dylan Smith and Josh Green. Gardner had Arenas and Jefferson. Mustafa had Salim and Iggy. Bayless had Budinger and McClellan. TJ had Nick Johnson and Aaron Gordon.

I'd rate Nico and Bayless as the two most statistically impressive and also as the least accomplished in terms of results. I don't see that as an accident. My take is they produced more on lesser teams because they had to shoulder the load teammates couldn't.

It's easier to be a difference maker when your teammates keep you close and your contributions take it over the top. Nico and Bayless either had to play well or we'd lose by 10. Guys like Bibby, Gardner, TJ and Staf, the rest of the team could keep us competitive if they were off.

I will say, I think that comparison is a great one for understanding what I was driving at. Everyone on that list but TJ was a 5 star McDonald's AA. I think Nico produced comparably for a guy of that pedigree, and it's just a matter of comparing opportunity, team around him, etc. if we tried to rank them. Which is my thing with Nico. I think he lived up to what we should reasonably expect, but his shooting struggles meant he didn't exceed expectations.

Personally, I'd rank the 5 stars (freshman season alone):

1. Bibby.
2. Tie between Gardner, Bayless and Nico.
3. Mustafa.

[Beachcat97]

I suppose we could compare Nico's freshman year to other big-minute AZ PGs in their first year.

Nico - 14ppg, 5.3apg, 2.5rpg, 39%FG, 79%FT
Bibby - 13.5, 5.2, 3.2, 44%, 70%
Gardner - 12.6, 4.8, 3.7, 37%, 72%
Shakur - 9.4, 4.5, 3.6, 51%, 80%
Bayless - 19.7, 4.0, 2.7, 45%, 83%
McConnell (junior transfer) - 8.4, 5.3, 3.6, 45%, 62%

Statistically, Nico compares VERY favorably to our best PGs. I would ask, Spiff, whether you consider Nico's overall impact as a freshman to be as significant as some of these others. Are these statistical measures the only way we can account for a player's impact? How many big shots did Nico hit? How many times did he come up big or flat in a critical game? With some of these others -- particularly Bibby, Gardner and McConnell -- their presence on the court was often the difference between a win and a loss. Is the same true of Nico?

Anyway, didn't mean to drag this on. Appreciate the conversation.

Perhaps I'm a Nico fanboy, but here's my thoughts. Bibby was flanked by Simon and Dickerson on the perimeter, vs Nico's Dylan Smith and Josh Green. Gardner had Arenas and Jefferson. Mustafa had Salim and Iggy. Bayless had Budinger and McClellan. TJ had Nick Johnson and Aaron Gordon.

I'd rate Nico and Bayless as the two most statistically impressive and also as the least accomplished in terms of results. I don't see that as an accident. My take is they produced more on lesser teams because they had to shoulder the load teammates couldn't.

It's easier to be a difference maker when your teammates keep you close and your contributions take it over the top. Nico and Bayless either had to play well or we'd lose by 10. Guys like Bibby, Gardner, TJ and Staf, the rest of the team could keep us competitive if they were off.

I will say, I think that comparison is a great one for understanding what I was driving at. Everyone on that list but TJ was a 5 star McDonald's AA. I think Nico produced comparably for a guy of that pedigree, and it's just a matter of comparing opportunity, team around him, etc. if we tried to rank them. Which is my thing with Nico. I think he lived up to what we should reasonably expect, but his shooting struggles meant he didn't exceed expectations.

Personally, I'd rank the 5 stars (freshman season alone):

1. Bibby.
2. Tie between Gardner, Bayless and Nico.
3. Mustafa.

It's crazy to think what Nico might've done if he'd had the teammates TJ did in 2013-14. NJ, AG, RHJ, BA, KT...what a team we had.

Comparing Nico's supporting cast to that one TJ had makes pretty clear how hard it is for a point guard, even a very good one, to elevate his team into a contender.

I did want to steer this back to Tyty at some point, and try to think about how his game might complement our current roster, but I'm starting to get the impression he isn't coming.

[U.P. Zona Fan]

It seemed that Nico was not the defender that tj was. Since I live in Michigan and didn't spend money on tv till the mark lyons era, I don't really have much to go on. TJ did a lot of things that don't show up in the stat line. How many times did Nico Roar compared to TJ? How many times did Nico get in a teammates grill and get them on the right page? How many times did he make the right pass at the right time to the right person to shift momentum?

I loved Tj and what he brought to the game. Maybe Nico would have done that as a junior, it's really hard to tell.

[midnightx]

I suppose we could compare Nico's freshman year to other big-minute AZ PGs in their first year.

Nico - 14ppg, 5.3apg, 2.5rpg, 39%FG, 79%FT
Bibby - 13.5, 5.2, 3.2, 44%, 70%
Gardner - 12.6, 4.8, 3.7, 37%, 72%
Shakur - 9.4, 4.5, 3.6, 51%, 80%
Bayless - 19.7, 4.0, 2.7, 45%, 83%
McConnell (junior transfer) - 8.4, 5.3, 3.6, 45%, 62%

Statistically, Nico compares VERY favorably to our best PGs. I would ask, Spiff, whether you consider Nico's overall impact as a freshman to be as significant as some of these others. Are these statistical measures the only way we can account for a player's impact? How many big shots did Nico hit? How many times did he come up big or flat in a critical game? With some of these others -- particularly Bibby, Gardner and McConnell -- their presence on the court was often the difference between a win and a loss. Is the same true of Nico?

Anyway, didn't mean to drag this on. Appreciate the conversation.

Perhaps I'm a Nico fanboy, but here's my thoughts. Bibby was flanked by Simon and Dickerson on the perimeter, vs Nico's Dylan Smith and Josh Green. Gardner had Arenas and Jefferson. Mustafa had Salim and Iggy. Bayless had Budinger and McClellan. TJ had Nick Johnson and Aaron Gordon.

I'd rate Nico and Bayless as the two most statistically impressive and also as the least accomplished in terms of results. I don't see that as an accident. My take is they produced more on lesser teams because they had to shoulder the load teammates couldn't.

It's easier to be a difference maker when your teammates keep you close and your contributions take it over the top. Nico and Bayless either had to play well or we'd lose by 10. Guys like Bibby, Gardner, TJ and Staf, the rest of the team could keep us competitive if they were off.

I will say, I think that comparison is a great one for understanding what I was driving at. Everyone on that list but TJ was a 5 star McDonald's AA. I think Nico produced comparably for a guy of that pedigree, and it's just a matter of comparing opportunity, team around him, etc. if we tried to rank them. Which is my thing with Nico. I think he lived up to what we should reasonably expect, but his shooting struggles meant he didn't exceed expectations.

Personally, I'd rank the 5 stars (freshman season alone):

1. Bibby.
2. Tie between Gardner, Bayless and Nico.
3. Mustafa.

It's crazy to think what Nico might've done if he'd had the teammates TJ did in 2013-14. NJ, AG, RHJ, BA, KT...what a team we had.

Comparing Nico's supporting cast to that one TJ had makes pretty clear how hard it is for a point guard, even a very good one, to elevate his team into a contender.

I did want to steer this back to Tyty at some point, and try to think about how his game might complement our current roster, but I'm starting to get the impression he isn't coming.

Nico ended up being somewhat underwhelming and did not live up to his billing, but as you pointed out, there were issues with his supporting cast with respect to experience and depth. Had Nico come into the program with guys like Gordon, N. Johnson, and Bash, it may have been different. That said, he still didn't have the killer-instinct of a guy like Bibby, who had shoulder quite a bit (along with Dickerson) by playing half a season without Simon. And TJ may not have had the natural gifts of Nico, but he was a greater leader.

[Spaceman Spiff]

It seemed that Nico was not the defender that tj was. Since I live in Michigan and didn't spend money on tv till the mark lyons era, I don't really have much to go on. TJ did a lot of things that don't show up in the stat line. How many times did Nico Roar compared to TJ? How many times did Nico get in a teammates grill and get them on the right page? How many times did he make the right pass at the right time to the right person to shift momentum?

I loved Tj and what he brought to the game. Maybe Nico would have done that as a junior, it's really hard to tell.

I mean, it makes a difference whether you're passing to Aaron Gordon or Dylan Smith.

It's easier when you've got Nick Johnson, Aaron Gordon, RHJ, Ashley and Zeus. Those people can be the right guy. Nico's options for the right guy were Zeke and...

I mean, look at this tape and tell me you don't see energy, smart decisions and what you want:

https://youtu.be/fB1Pr_wSNsU

I do legit think a large part of the issue was if Nico wasn't on his game, those opportunities didn't exist because no one else could keep us close.

[Jefe]

cough Tommy Lloyd thread cough

[Postmaster]

I didn’t think Zeke was supposed to be OAD.
I guess I expected more of Nico because of hype.
I thought he believed he had more range than he did. Maybe due to injury?
Seemed like he would brick 3s from 5-7 feet behind line but if he was at or near line he would make them.
Also, that shot put floater never seemed to fall for him.
Lastly, when he got to the rim he would alter shot or try to go under backboard and miss layups. Again I wonder if he was avoiding contact due to injury.

It seemed to me that he never recovered from the injury. Don’t remember if it was in Baylor game or just before.

EDIT: Tommy Lloyd

[Beachcat97]

cough Tommy Lloyd thread cough

I'd like to bring it back to a discussion of our PG situation for next season, whether it's Tyty or someone else.

[Postmaster]

Kerr Kriisa ?

[azcat49]

How about the position Lloyd played in college and how his numbers compared to Nico

[Merkin]

Kerr Kriisa ?

He can't drive to the basket which is essential to being a PG. Defense will just keep a man in front of him. Akinjo was quite good at driving, which requires someone to help, leaving a man open.

[Beachcat97]

Kerr Kriisa ?

He can't drive to the basket which is essential to being a PG. Defense will just keep a man in front of him. Akinjo was quite good at driving, which requires someone to help, leaving a man open.

Yeah, Kriisa's development may also be slower because of lost reps last year. We haven't seen him log big minutes at the point yet. Between him and Tyty (or a transfer), we should be fine.

I'm also wondering about the kind of guard that would best complement Mathurin and Kriisa.

[gronk4heisman]

Kerr Kriisa ?

He can't drive to the basket which is essential to being a PG. Defense will just keep a man in front of him. Akinjo was quite good at driving, which requires someone to help, leaving a man open.

Yeah, Kriisa's development may also be slower because of lost reps last year. We haven't seen him log big minutes at the point yet. Between him and Tyty (or a transfer), we should be fine.

I'm also wondering about the kind of guard that would best complement Mathurin and Kriisa.

We at a minimum need two additional guards who will get playing time to be competitive next year. Ideally Kerr would be coming off the bench backing up the 1 and the 2.

[Frybry02]

CTL sure is a lot more patient than me.

[azgreg]

[AZCatGirl]

Shouldn't it list Gonzaga since that's the school he won this under?

[U.P. Zona Fan]

Don't tell Gilbert Arenas this is happening!!!!!

[Spaceman Spiff]

This story taught me there is an assistant coaches hall of fame.

[97cats]

MPG 35.7 - PPG 19.7 - RB 2.7 - AST 4.0 - FG% 45.8 - FG3% 40.7 - FT% 83.9

[97cats]

[Longhorned]

Don't laugh. Some of them are children of the all-time most highly decorated substitute teachers.

[97cats]

Don't laugh. Some of them are children of the all-time most highly decorated substitute teachers.

oh boy that tickled me just right...assistant coach hall of fame.

cant stop laughing

[IndianaZonaFan]

MPG 35.7 - PPG 19.7 - RB 2.7 - AST 4.0 - FG% 45.8 - FG3% 40.7 - FT% 83.9

Bayless?

[Alieberman]

When do the 12th man HOF announcements get made?

I can't wait!

[Spaceman Spiff]

Don't laugh. Some of them are children of the all-time most highly decorated substitute teachers.

The underrated part of that post is I know who Bill Guthridge is and obviously Lloyd.

I have zero clue who the remaining people on that list are, with the exception of what's in that picture. So apparently that one dude is/was an assistant at Baylor, and hopefully not during the Dave Bliss days. Or the rape culture days.

[Spaceman Spiff]

When do the 12th man HOF announcements get made?

I can't wait!

It's hard to know if I'm team David Bagga or team Jacob Hazzard for this one. I grew up with Bagga, but Hazzard was the ultimate garbage time get mine guy.

Also, Hazzard has the rare distinction of posting two 20+ PER's and two -20+ PER's in a 4 year career. He's also the player that educated me negative PER exists.

[Longhorned]

When do the 12th man HOF announcements get made?

I can't wait!

It's hard to know if I'm team David Bagga or team Jacob Hazzard for this one. I grew up with Bagga, but Hazzard was the ultimate garbage time get mine guy.

Also, Hazzard has the rare distinction of posting two 20+ PER's and two -20+ PER's in a 4 year career. He's also the player that educated me negative PER exists.

No way. And sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but it's Fil Torres. He'll always be the only 12th man who so pissed off HOF Lute Olson that he actually ripped him in his post-game comments.

[Alieberman]

No love for MIKE "FUCKING" SCHWERTLEY?!!!

[azcat49]

Cliff Johns

[UAdevil]

Casey Schmidt

[Merkin]

Gene Edgerson, only UA player ever to play on 2 Final Fours.

Also ejected for breaking some Euro's nose with his elbow in some exhibition game.

Took a year off to complete his coursework to be a kindergarten teacher.

Had a good job playing for the Harlem Globetrotters, then ended up being arrested twice for DV and was fired.

[Irish27]

Rolf Jacobs.

[Merkin]

Rolf Jacobs.

Ah yes, broke the nose of Craig McMillan in practice.

[UAdevil]

Brian David. Did he ever lose a game he logged minutes in?

[Chicat]

John Ash and it’s not close.

[Merkin]

Kevin Flanagan would tend to disagree.

[Postmaster]

David Lee?
John Ash
Of course the ultimate has to be Josh

[Postmaster]

Who was the tall guy that blocked kicks?
Tyler Hansen or something like that?

[ekat]

Who was the tall guy that blocked kicks?
Tyler Hansen or something like that?

Close - Peter Hansen

[azcat49]

Craig Bergman or Ortege Jenkins. Two greatest QB walk ons to the basketball team

[YoDeFoe]

When do the 12th man HOF announcements get made?

I can't wait!

It's hard to know if I'm team David Bagga or team Jacob Hazzard for this one. I grew up with Bagga, but Hazzard was the ultimate garbage time get mine guy.

Also, Hazzard has the rare distinction of posting two 20+ PER's and two -20+ PER's in a 4 year career. He's also the player that educated me negative PER exists.

I'm an avowed stat guy and this is my favorie Arizona stat - thank you, Spiff.

Also: Team Bagga

[Spaceman Spiff]

When do the 12th man HOF announcements get made?

I can't wait!

It's hard to know if I'm team David Bagga or team Jacob Hazzard for this one. I grew up with Bagga, but Hazzard was the ultimate garbage time get mine guy.

Also, Hazzard has the rare distinction of posting two 20+ PER's and two -20+ PER's in a 4 year career. He's also the player that educated me negative PER exists.

I'm an avowed stat guy and this is my favorie Arizona stat - thank you, Spiff.

Also: Team Bagga

His per 40 min scoring average is equally hilarious.

Freshman, 0.0
Soph, 27.6
Jr, 3.0
Sr, 27.7.

[UAEebs86]

I vote for Bruce Fraser the original Gumby. McKale used to go insane if he scored.

[midnightx]

How about Josh Pastner? The biggest bench cheerleader in program history, an assistant under Lute and Calipari, ran Memphis into the ground, got involved in some bizarre love-triangle shakedown, and now oversees mediocrity at Georgia Tech.

[Merkin]

Didn't Pastner have the record for most appearances without ever being in a losing game?

[Postmaster]

ACC Conference Champion, Georgia Tech.

[ekat]

Interesting article, including spelling McKale wrong, gloom and doom on the looming sanctions, and a fascinating Robbins tidbit.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-baske ... -wildcats/

[gronk4heisman]

Interesting article, including spelling McKale wrong, gloom and doom on the looming sanctions, and a fascinating Robbins tidbit.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-baske ... -wildcats/

That explains it, Bob Rob has his connection to Tommy thru Turiaf and heart surgery. All his big hires have to have some connection to him and his heart surgery past.

[Postmaster]

People really should edit things before they publish.

Seemed like Miller had things going in a good direction. Not sure the program was paralyzed.
I aaume that quote was from Heeke.
I picked out the part where Bobbin’ Robbins just wanted his own coaches.

[prh]

Dennis Dodd is a shit NCAA football guy, so it's natural to see if he could be worse covering basketball.