let's talk '21

[Postmaster]

Was Creighton in on AK before he committed to UNLV?

[HiCat]

Whenever I need a “sky is falling” fix this board never disappoints...

No shit. No group goes 60-0 like this group.

Well we just lost out on two starting caliber players in as many weeks and now we're sitting at 10 scholarship players with no identified prospects left on the board.

The sky isn’t falling, it’s this season’s ceiling that just came crashing down.

This. I hear the call for patience, and how we should appreciate a new coach who convinces a number of existing players to stay. But there's a context here. This isn't about what Lloyd can do given the challenges of taking over. It's about an administrator who fired a coach without cause... a coach who was developing a team with exciting potential in spite of said administrator's yanking the postseason, so that said administrator could bring in "his guy." This is the context for impatience. It's not another "sky is falling" moment after a disappointing regular season loss. It's about throwing away what was, and for what? So that we can exercise patience?

And let me know if anybody else here feels this - and don't get me started on football - but the worst part for me is how this outsider comes in, fires our basketball coach in connection with nothing tangible whatsoever, and then he literally tells us to "Bear Down." Is there anybody hear who feels like this is a little much?

Ditto. Patience will be my mantra for now. It won't be easy given the collective hoops IQ here. Just saw this
article.

Tommy Lloyd gives insight into recruiting philosophy
https://247sports.com/college/arizona/A ... 165472749/

[ChooChooCat]

Was Creighton in on AK before he committed to UNLV?

Their new assistant, Ryan Miller, recruited him while he was at TCU. He had the relationship advantage over us.

[ChooChooCat]

Whenever I need a “sky is falling” fix this board never disappoints...

No shit. No group goes 60-0 like this group.

Well we just lost out on two starting caliber players in as many weeks and now we're sitting at 10 scholarship players with no identified prospects left on the board.

The sky isn’t falling, it’s this season’s ceiling that just came crashing down.

There are identified prospects on the board still, just not the top options.

[Chicat]

I was told that the Lloyd hire would wash away the dark cloud hovering over the program keeping us from greatness, and that Lute on his death bed told a reporter without saying a word that Miller’s transgressions had destroyed a once great program. I was told that Lloyd was an incredible recruiter who would give us immediate inroads to recruits who would never have considered playing for a program as moribund as Miller’s.

Now I’m being told I need to have patience because Lloyd needs a training wheels season? That our recruiting will not be better immediately and that players won’t jump at the chance to come play for him?

What if I say “fuck patience”? I want to see some results on the recruiting trail right now. The Lloyd era has begun with half our team transferring out and very few viable replacements incoming. That’s not a good start for Robbin’s boy.

[EastCoastCat]

Whenever I need a “sky is falling” fix this board never disappoints...

No shit. No group goes 60-0 like this group.

Well we just lost out on two starting caliber players in as many weeks and now we're sitting at 10 scholarship players with no identified prospects left on the board.

The sky isn’t falling, it’s this season’s ceiling that just came crashing down.

This. I hear the call for patience, and how we should appreciate a new coach who convinces a number of existing players to stay. But there's a context here. This isn't about what Lloyd can do given the challenges of taking over. It's about an administrator who fired a coach without cause... a coach who was developing a team with exciting potential in spite of said administrator's yanking the postseason, so that said administrator could bring in "his guy." This is the context for impatience. It's not another "sky is falling" moment after a disappointing regular season loss. It's about throwing away what was, and for what? So that we can exercise patience?

And let me know if anybody else here feels this - and don't get me started on football - but the worst part for me is how this outsider comes in, fires our basketball coach in connection with nothing tangible whatsoever, and then he literally tells us to "Bear Down." Is there anybody hear who feels like this is a little much?

My problem with this LH is that this isn't new news. We ALL agree that our administration fucked up and put is in this situation now with CTL. That's fucking water under the bridge. Do we really have to re-live it every day now? It feels like unnecessary whining because none of us has the magic wand to change history.

It is what it is at this point - and that's how I'm trying to look at it.

Yes, it would have been nice for psyche to land TyTy and Kaluma but it's not like we started in a favorable situation given the firing fiasco and a new coach that is trying to right the ship. He also does not have lot of cache to snap his fingers and get big time recruits at the moment but I'm not sure how we can blame him after a month on the job. I'm going to give him 2 months....

[EastCoastCat]

I was told that the Lloyd hire would wash away the dark cloud hovering over the program keeping us from greatness, and that Lute on his death bed told a reporter without saying a word that Miller’s transgressions had destroyed a once great program. I was told that Lloyd was an incredible recruiter who would give us immediate inroads to recruits who would never have considered playing for a program as moribund as Miller’s.

Now I’m being told I need to have patience because Lloyd needs a training wheels season? That our recruiting will not be better immediately and that players won’t jump at the chance to come play for him?

What if I say “fuck patience”? I want to see some results on the recruiting trail right now. The Lloyd era has begun with half our team transferring out and very few viable replacements incoming. That’s not a good start for Robbin’s boy.

What I don't think is fair - and I'm not going to attempt to dissect your patience barometer btw - is that we mix up the performance of this new Coach with our mutual disdain for our douchebag Pres. & AD.

I'm not going to hate on CTL just because he's "Robbins boy". But that's just me.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I was told that the Lloyd hire would wash away the dark cloud hovering over the program keeping us from greatness, and that Lute on his death bed told a reporter without saying a word that Miller’s transgressions had destroyed a once great program. I was told that Lloyd was an incredible recruiter who would give us immediate inroads to recruits who would never have considered playing for a program as moribund as Miller’s.

Now I’m being told I need to have patience because Lloyd needs a training wheels season? That our recruiting will not be better immediately and that players won’t jump at the chance to come play for him?

What if I say “fuck patience”? I want to see some results on the recruiting trail right now. The Lloyd era has begun with half our team transferring out and very few viable replacements incoming. That’s not a good start for Robbin’s boy.

So I've repeatedly said the true result will be when the offseason is over and we fully see what our roster looks like.

That said, none of this is positive and the patience talk is beside the point to me. You either get results or you don't. We're not talking wins and losses yet, just recruiting.

It still shocks me people think it doesn't matter we fired a good coach but can't expect immediate results. Miller got Momo, Parrom, Hill, DWill and Kyryl with about the same time. Some of that is an accident of history, but so far Lloyd has taken over 3 recruits, whittled that to 1 and missed on 2 more.

Also, it's tough to claim it will be ok on a guy with no HC track record. What is that really based on? He got the chance because he was supposedly talented enough to offset his lack of experience, but so far, the results don't show it.

Things are always about results.

[ChooChooCat]

I was told that the Lloyd hire would wash away the dark cloud hovering over the program keeping us from greatness, and that Lute on his death bed told a reporter without saying a word that Miller’s transgressions had destroyed a once great program. I was told that Lloyd was an incredible recruiter who would give us immediate inroads to recruits who would never have considered playing for a program as moribund as Miller’s.

Goodman's bullshit not withstanding, but we didn't miss out on two recruits that Lloyd had long time relationships with. Tyty and his dad are absolutely the type to fall in love with the type of bullshit that comes with Calipari and Kentucky, so that is what it is, and Kaluma definitely hurt, but he's not exactly a normal kid in regards to recruitment standards. He had zero attachments to the state of Arizona. It sucks and it's a failure no question, but it is what it is. If we worked on the guy for more than a few weeks and lost him I'd still be rampid, but eh cooler heads prevail. As far as Lloyd giving us immediate inroads to recruits who wouldn't have considered playing for Arizona, he did land Dylan Anderson didn't he? That guy was most definitely not coming to Arizona with Sean Miller in charge.

Now I’m being told I need to have patience because Lloyd needs a training wheels season? That our recruiting will not be better immediately and that players won’t jump at the chance to come play for him?

Why wouldn't you have patience? I'm not sure who sold you the bill of goods that our recruiting will be better IMMEDIATELY, but the guy has certain relationships and strengths in place already and losing out on two guys that he nor Gonzaga recruited before he arrived on campus isn't exactly the tell all about what he can do. You were patient with Miller when he got here right? I get not being happy with the decision to can Miller, but why lash out on Lloyd for that? That's not his fault and you know it.

What if I say “fuck patience”? I want to see some results on the recruiting trail right now. The Lloyd era has begun with half our team transferring out and very few viable replacements incoming. That’s not a good start for Robbin’s boy.

Well that's certainly your right. He did beat Kansas for the Swede fwiw. Also who that left will you truly miss outside of Akinjo? Are you really worried about not having Gorener, Jordan Brown, and Daniel Batcho around? Were they ever going to be the difference makers for you? T Brown and Baker left before Miller was even fired so they don't count and literally every single one of these guys transferred to a lesser program (Brown is going to St. Mary's). I'm with you on the rest of your post, but worrying about losing these guys? Really? I'll pass.

Btw if Akinjo returned we were going to lose numerous other quality core pieces. So while him leaving sucks, it was inevitable, and addition by subtraction to that extent.

[ChooChooCat]

I was told that the Lloyd hire would wash away the dark cloud hovering over the program keeping us from greatness, and that Lute on his death bed told a reporter without saying a word that Miller’s transgressions had destroyed a once great program. I was told that Lloyd was an incredible recruiter who would give us immediate inroads to recruits who would never have considered playing for a program as moribund as Miller’s.

Now I’m being told I need to have patience because Lloyd needs a training wheels season? That our recruiting will not be better immediately and that players won’t jump at the chance to come play for him?

What if I say “fuck patience”? I want to see some results on the recruiting trail right now. The Lloyd era has begun with half our team transferring out and very few viable replacements incoming. That’s not a good start for Robbin’s boy.

What I don't think is fair - and I'm not going to attempt to dissect your patience barometer btw - is that we mix up the performance of this new Coach with our mutual disdain for our douchebag Pres. & AD.

I'm not going to hate on CTL just because he's "Robbins boy". But that's just me.

This.

[ChooChooCat]

I was told that the Lloyd hire would wash away the dark cloud hovering over the program keeping us from greatness, and that Lute on his death bed told a reporter without saying a word that Miller’s transgressions had destroyed a once great program. I was told that Lloyd was an incredible recruiter who would give us immediate inroads to recruits who would never have considered playing for a program as moribund as Miller’s.

Now I’m being told I need to have patience because Lloyd needs a training wheels season? That our recruiting will not be better immediately and that players won’t jump at the chance to come play for him?

What if I say “fuck patience”? I want to see some results on the recruiting trail right now. The Lloyd era has begun with half our team transferring out and very few viable replacements incoming. That’s not a good start for Robbin’s boy.

So I've repeatedly said the true result will be when the offseason is over and we fully see what our roster looks like.

That said, none of this is positive and the patience talk is beside the point to me. You either get results or you don't. We're not talking wins and losses yet, just recruiting.

It still shocks me people think it doesn't matter we fired a good coach but can't expect immediate results. Miller got Momo, Parrom, Hill, DWill and Kyryl with about the same time. Some of that is an accident of history, but so far Lloyd has taken over 3 recruits, whittled that to 1 and missed on 2 more.

Also, it's tough to claim it will be ok on a guy with no HC track record. What is that really based on? He got the chance because he was supposedly talented enough to offset his lack of experience, but so far, the results don't show it.

Things are always about results.

Miller then followed up that recruiting class that fell into his lap into a class of Jordin Mayes & Jesse Perry. Lloyd already has that class beat out with Dylan Anderson alone.

He then followed it up with Nick Johnson, Josiah Turner, Sidiki Johnson, and Angelo Chol (batted .250 there).

How patient are you guys willing to be? Not at all?

[RondaeShimmy]

It's weird that it's the people that usually don't populate the recruiting threads that are melting down the most about this.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I was told that the Lloyd hire would wash away the dark cloud hovering over the program keeping us from greatness, and that Lute on his death bed told a reporter without saying a word that Miller’s transgressions had destroyed a once great program. I was told that Lloyd was an incredible recruiter who would give us immediate inroads to recruits who would never have considered playing for a program as moribund as Miller’s.

Now I’m being told I need to have patience because Lloyd needs a training wheels season? That our recruiting will not be better immediately and that players won’t jump at the chance to come play for him?

What if I say “fuck patience”? I want to see some results on the recruiting trail right now. The Lloyd era has begun with half our team transferring out and very few viable replacements incoming. That’s not a good start for Robbin’s boy.

So I've repeatedly said the true result will be when the offseason is over and we fully see what our roster looks like.

That said, none of this is positive and the patience talk is beside the point to me. You either get results or you don't. We're not talking wins and losses yet, just recruiting.

It still shocks me people think it doesn't matter we fired a good coach but can't expect immediate results. Miller got Momo, Parrom, Hill, DWill and Kyryl with about the same time. Some of that is an accident of history, but so far Lloyd has taken over 3 recruits, whittled that to 1 and missed on 2 more.

Also, it's tough to claim it will be ok on a guy with no HC track record. What is that really based on? He got the chance because he was supposedly talented enough to offset his lack of experience, but so far, the results don't show it.

Things are always about results.

Miller then followed up that recruiting class that fell into his lap into a class of Jordin Mayes & Jesse Perry. Lloyd already has that class beat out with Dylan Anderson alone.

He then followed it up with Nick Johnson, Josiah Turner, Sidiki Johnson, and Angelo Chol (batted .250 there).

How patient are you guys willing to be? Not at all?

Depends on how you use patience.

He isn't getting fired before the new season, or legitimately in any danger for a year or two, so he'll get to coach.

I've said before my expectations for year 1 are somewhere around where they were for Miller, i.e., top 20. We'll see how that goes.

In the interim, if you mean patience to say I can't pass judgment on what is happening, I don't have patience. If you mean patience by passing judgment on what is happening but waiting to see results on the floor, etc., I will have patience.

Here's how I judge so far.

Failing to retain Akinjo and probably Brown but retaining the rest, a loss, but not dumpster fire, Kevin Sumlin type L.

Getting Anderson, a win, but one that will come next year.

Getting Ballo, I'm very, very, very lukewarm. Don't see him as much of a contributor.

Not retaining Aiken, small loss.

Not retaining KJ and Dezonie, looking more and more like an L given no actual replacement.

Not getting Tyty or Kaluma, loss.

Getting Pelle, win.

I feel like you expect production, not patience. When I look at the production so far, it dpesn't look great. This feels like I'd said in the beginning, we took a step back and are hoping over time, Looyd will improve us to the level Miller already had us at.

[ProfessorFate]

Whenever I need a “sky is falling” fix this board never disappoints...

No shit. No group goes 60-0 like this group.

Well we just lost out on two starting caliber players in as many weeks and now we're sitting at 10 scholarship players with no identified prospects left on the board.

The sky isn’t falling, it’s this season’s ceiling that just came crashing down.

This. I hear the call for patience, and how we should appreciate a new coach who convinces a number of existing players to stay. But there's a context here. This isn't about what Lloyd can do given the challenges of taking over. It's about an administrator who fired a coach without cause... a coach who was developing a team with exciting potential in spite of said administrator's yanking the postseason, so that said administrator could bring in "his guy." This is the context for impatience. It's not another "sky is falling" moment after a disappointing regular season loss. It's about throwing away what was, and for what? So that we can exercise patience?

And let me know if anybody else here feels this - and don't get me started on football - but the worst part for me is how this outsider comes in, fires our basketball coach in connection with nothing tangible whatsoever, and then he literally tells us to "Bear Down." Is there anybody hear who feels like this is a little much?

My problem with this LH is that this isn't new news. We ALL agree that our administration fucked up and put is in this situation now with CTL. That's fucking water under the bridge. Do we really have to re-live it every day now? It feels like unnecessary whining because none of us has the magic wand to change history.

It is what it is at this point - and that's how I'm trying to look at it.

Yes, it would have been nice for psyche to land TyTy and Kaluma but it's not like we started in a favorable situation given the firing fiasco and a new coach that is trying to right the ship. He also does not have lot of cache to snap his fingers and get big time recruits at the moment but I'm not sure how we can blame him after a month on the job. I'm going to give him 2 months....

This.

[Spaceman Spiff]

It's weird that it's the people that usually don't populate the recruiting threads that are melting down the most about this.

Not sure I see a meltdown. What were you expecting, a bunch of posts praising Lloyd for trying really hard and coming in second, because second is next to first?

I don't know if you think I'm melting, but I see it more as calling it like it is. It's not a positive, and generally, participation trophies aren't offered at major D1 programs.

[ChooChooCat]

Depends on how you use patience.

He isn't getting fired before the new season, or legitimately in any danger for a year or two, so he'll get to coach.

I've said before my expectations for year 1 are somewhere around where they were for Miller, i.e., top 20. We'll see how that goes.

In the interim, if you mean patience to say I can't pass judgment on what is happening, I don't have patience. If you mean patience by passing judgment on what is happening but waiting to see results on the floor, etc., I will have patience.

Here's how I judge so far.

Failing to retain Akinjo and probably Brown but retaining the rest, a loss, but not dumpster fire, Kevin Sumlin type L.

Getting Anderson, a win, but one that will come next year.

Getting Ballo, I'm very, very, very lukewarm. Don't see him as much of a contributor.

Not retaining Aiken, small loss.

Not retaining KJ and Dezonie, looking more and more like an L given no actual replacement.

Not getting Tyty or Kaluma, loss.

Getting Pelle, win.

I feel like you expect production, not patience. When I look at the production so far, it dpesn't look great. This feels like I'd said in the beginning, we took a step back and are hoping over time, Looyd will improve us to the level Miller already had us at.

Wait what do you mean by top 20? Like a top 20 recruiting class in less than a month of recruiting? Are you serious?

Failing to retain Akinjo needs context considering we would've lost probably 3 core pieces that we currently have if we did retain him. Losing Brown is a bit shitty, but overall it's a meh. I'll give it a half a loss.

Agreed on Anderson and Ballo.

In retrospect we could've used Aiken, but once again meh. We'll get a piece to fill that hole.

Dezonie wouldn't have contributed this year and probably transfers, so what would be the point in keeping him? KJ you can be upset about, but that was all about relationships. You can't fix that that quickly. Kid had his mind made up.

Yup Tyty/Kaluma is a L and Pelle is a W.

We took a step back in regards to what though? If you look at it in the context that if Miller stayed, then so does Akinjo, KJ, Aiken, and Dezonie, but also leads to departures of like I said a few guys (namely Mathurin and Terry). Miller was not going to land Tyty let alone be in his top 2 and Arizona never gets involved with Kaluma as the ties wouldn't have been there to begin with. So how much better would the production really had been? How much of a step forward would there have really been?

CONTEXT MATTERS.

[Chicat]

I was told that the Lloyd hire would wash away the dark cloud hovering over the program keeping us from greatness, and that Lute on his death bed told a reporter without saying a word that Miller’s transgressions had destroyed a once great program. I was told that Lloyd was an incredible recruiter who would give us immediate inroads to recruits who would never have considered playing for a program as moribund as Miller’s.

Goodman's bullshit not withstanding, but we didn't miss out on two recruits that Lloyd had long time relationships with. Tyty and his dad are absolutely the type to fall in love with the type of bullshit that comes with Calipari and Kentucky, so that is what it is, and Kaluma definitely hurt, but he's not exactly a normal kid in regards to recruitment standards. He had zero attachments to the state of Arizona. It sucks and it's a failure no question, but it is what it is. If we worked on the guy for more than a few weeks and lost him I'd still be rampid, but eh cooler heads prevail. As far as Lloyd giving us immediate inroads to recruits who wouldn't have considered playing for Arizona, he did land Dylan Anderson didn't he? That guy was most definitely not coming to Arizona with Sean Miller in charge.

Now I’m being told I need to have patience because Lloyd needs a training wheels season? That our recruiting will not be better immediately and that players won’t jump at the chance to come play for him?

Why wouldn't you have patience? I'm not sure who sold you the bill of goods that our recruiting will be better IMMEDIATELY, but the guy has certain relationships and strengths in place already and losing out on two guys that he nor Gonzaga recruited before he arrived on campus isn't exactly the tell all about what he can do. You were patient with Miller when he got here right? I get not being happy with the decision to can Miller, but why lash out on Lloyd for that? That's not his fault and you know it.

What if I say “fuck patience”? I want to see some results on the recruiting trail right now. The Lloyd era has begun with half our team transferring out and very few viable replacements incoming. That’s not a good start for Robbin’s boy.

Well that's certainly your right. He did beat Kansas for the Swede fwiw. Also who that left will you truly miss outside of Akinjo? Are you really worried about not having Gorener, Jordan Brown, and Daniel Batcho around? Were they ever going to be the difference makers for you? T Brown and Baker left before Miller was even fired so they don't count and literally every single one of these guys transferred to a lesser program (Brown is going to St. Mary's). I'm with you on the rest of your post, but worrying about losing these guys? Really? I'll pass.

Btw if Akinjo returned we were going to lose numerous other quality core pieces. So while him leaving sucks, it was inevitable, and addition by subtraction to that extent.

When you hire a guy who has no head coaching experience with the thought that his recruiting prowess and clean reputation will translate into keeping the program at its current level, I feel like it’s just fine to judge him based on recruiting so far. And so far I’m not impressed.

I’m not judging Lloyd on the job Miller had to do his first couple of years. I’m judging him on the job he needs to do right now. Hence “fuck patience”. On the recruiting trail Miller had to contend with being the fourth head coach in four years. Lloyd obviously has different challenges but I was led to believe that many of those challenges could be overcome by his hiring alone. So yeah, I guess I was sold a bill of goods.

[RondaeShimmy]

They wanted to fire Miller a couple of years ago, but boosters and people got mad because it would destroy a top 5 recruiting class at Arizona plus some high level transfers.

The next year Miller could only get Terry and had to scramble and desperately go to Europe to get international kids really late into the recruiting year.

This year, Miller could only get a 3 sub 100 guys.

There's a reason Miller was going international and sub 100 players (plus transfers). This is the way the wind was blowing.

[ChooChooCat]

When you hire a guy who has no head coaching experience with the thought that his recruiting prowess and clean reputation will translate into keeping the program at its current level, I feel like it’s just fine to judge him based on recruiting so far. And so far I’m not impressed.

I’m not judging Lloyd on the job Miller had to do his first couple of years. I’m judging him on the job he needs to do right now. Hence “fuck patience”. On the recruiting trail Miller had to contend with being the fourth head coach in four years. Lloyd obviously has different challenges but I was led to believe that many of those challenges could be overcome by his hiring alone. So yeah, I guess I was sold a bill of goods.

Look you're making up reasons why he was hired. He was by far and away the best candidate Arizona could get, which speaks volumes about the situation. I get it you're upset with the whole way every thing went down, but once again that's not Lloyd's fault. I don't know who led you to believe what you believe, but once again the magic word is CONTEXT.

Also he had Tyty wrapped up until his old school dicked him over. Take that fwiw.

[ChooChooCat]

They wanted to fire Miller a couple of years ago, but boosters and people got mad because it would destroy a top 5 recruiting class at Arizona plus some high level transfers.

The next year Miller could only get Terry and had to scramble and desperately go to Europe to get international kids really late into the recruiting year.

This year, Miller could only get a 3 sub 100 guys.

There's a reason Miller was going international and sub 100 players (plus transfers). This is the way the wind was blowing.

Bingo.

[Chicat]

When you hire a guy who has no head coaching experience with the thought that his recruiting prowess and clean reputation will translate into keeping the program at its current level, I feel like it’s just fine to judge him based on recruiting so far. And so far I’m not impressed.

I’m not judging Lloyd on the job Miller had to do his first couple of years. I’m judging him on the job he needs to do right now. Hence “fuck patience”. On the recruiting trail Miller had to contend with being the fourth head coach in four years. Lloyd obviously has different challenges but I was led to believe that many of those challenges could be overcome by his hiring alone. So yeah, I guess I was sold a bill of goods.

Look you're making up reasons why he was hired. He was by far and away the best candidate Arizona could get, which speaks volumes about the situation. I get it you're upset with the whole way every thing went down, but once again that's not Lloyd's fault. I don't know who led you to believe what you believe, but once again the magic word is CONTEXT.

Also he had Tyty wrapped up until his old school dicked him over. Take that fwiw.

The best candidate to coach Arizona Basketball this year was Sean Miller. I know you disagree with that but that’s the way I feel. My takes begin and end with that premise. Tommy Boy could end up proving me wrong but so far he hasn’t.

[ChooChooCat]

The best candidate to coach Arizona Basketball this year was Sean Miller. I know you disagree with that but that’s the way I feel. My takes begin and end with that premise. Tommy Boy could end up proving me wrong but so far he hasn’t.

Maybe let him coach a game first?

I don't disagree with you either persay, but there had to be a plan, and it had to be extend Sean Miller or fire him. Extending him leads to quite a bit of long term questions though. So I get why the plan was to fire Miller. Fwiw I think our core roster this year is better now than it would've been with Sean Miller.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Depends on how you use patience.

He isn't getting fired before the new season, or legitimately in any danger for a year or two, so he'll get to coach.

I've said before my expectations for year 1 are somewhere around where they were for Miller, i.e., top 20. We'll see how that goes.

In the interim, if you mean patience to say I can't pass judgment on what is happening, I don't have patience. If you mean patience by passing judgment on what is happening but waiting to see results on the floor, etc., I will have patience.

Here's how I judge so far.

Failing to retain Akinjo and probably Brown but retaining the rest, a loss, but not dumpster fire, Kevin Sumlin type L.

Getting Anderson, a win, but one that will come next year.

Getting Ballo, I'm very, very, very lukewarm. Don't see him as much of a contributor.

Not retaining Aiken, small loss.

Not retaining KJ and Dezonie, looking more and more like an L given no actual replacement.

Not getting Tyty or Kaluma, loss.

Getting Pelle, win.

I feel like you expect production, not patience. When I look at the production so far, it dpesn't look great. This feels like I'd said in the beginning, we took a step back and are hoping over time, Looyd will improve us to the level Miller already had us at.

Wait what do you mean by top 20? Like a top 20 recruiting class in less than a month of recruiting? Are you serious?

Failing to retain Akinjo needs context considering we would've lost probably 3 core pieces that we currently have if we did retain him. Losing Brown is a bit shitty, but overall it's a meh. I'll give it a half a loss.

Agreed on Anderson and Ballo.

In retrospect we could've used Aiken, but once again meh. We'll get a piece to fill that hole.

Dezonie wouldn't have contributed this year and probably transfers, so what would be the point in keeping him? KJ you can be upset about, but that was all about relationships. You can't fix that that quickly. Kid had his mind made up.

Yup Tyty/Kaluma is a L and Pelle is a W.

We took a step back in regards to what though? If you look at it in the context that if Miller stayed, then so does Akinjo, KJ, Aiken, and Dezonie, but also leads to departures of like I said a few guys (namely Mathurin and Terry). Miller was not going to land Tyty let alone be in his top 2 and Arizona never gets involved with Kaluma as the ties wouldn't have been there to begin with. So how much better would the production really had been? How much of a step forward would there have really been?

CONTEXT MATTERS.

A top 20 team.

Although, I'm fairly sure Nowell, Dezonie, KJ was top 20 (or 25 depending on your rank system) and Lloyd would just have to retain them to score that sort of recruiting class. You've said Lloyd was not interested in KJ or Dezonie, which, ok...but his replacements sort of don't exist at this point. Moreover, he could have fallen into a top 20 class just by retaining what we had.

I've always showed respect for your insider status (hopefully) but before Miller's firing, you'd said the top 7 players should be returning. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I can't remember one time that you (or another insider) posted that Mathurin or Terry would leave due to Akinjo. I know that narrative has emerged since, but before the firing, it wasn't really there.

I don't mean this as a callout, more that I'm trying to be good about not pulling stuff our of my butt.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6546&start=250

On your 4/1 post, you say it's likely Mathurin and Akinjo are both back. It took me like 20 min to wade through stuff to get there, so hopefully that'a proof enough.

We took a step back in that we were widely (and IMO, rightly) predicted as a top 20 team. I have a hard time seeing that now. The present and future talent levels aren't what they were before the firing.

[Spaceman Spiff]

They wanted to fire Miller a couple of years ago, but boosters and people got mad because it would destroy a top 5 recruiting class at Arizona plus some high level transfers.

The next year Miller could only get Terry and had to scramble and desperately go to Europe to get international kids really late into the recruiting year.

This year, Miller could only get a 3 sub 100 guys.

There's a reason Miller was going international and sub 100 players (plus transfers). This is the way the wind was blowing.

Ehhh, so first off, I think you're avoiding that the failure to support Miller was at least a partial driver in difficulty recruiting.

The international class you decry...Mathurin was not a late add, and he's the jewel of that class. You can also easily see this as Miller overcoming a lack of support to land a #6 national class.

Calling BS on the 2021 class. #80, 85 and 95.

https://247sports.com/Season/2021-Baske ... tRankings/

I do agree there's a reason Miller was doing what he was doing. It's hard to recruit like usual when the university president is hankering to fire you.

[ChooChooCat]

A top 20 team.

Although, I'm fairly sure Nowell, Dezonie, KJ was top 20 (or 25 depending on your rank system) and Lloyd would just have to retain them to score that sort of recruiting class. You've said Lloyd was not interested in KJ or Dezonie, which, ok...but his replacements sort of don't exist at this point. Moreover, he could have fallen into a top 20 class just by retaining what we had.

I've always showed respect for your insider status (hopefully) but before Miller's firing, you'd said the top 7 players should be returning. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I can't remember one time that you (or another insider) posted that Mathurin or Terry would leave due to Akinjo. I know that narrative has emerged since, but before the firing, it wasn't really there.

I don't mean this as a callout, more that I'm trying to be good about not pulling stuff our of my butt.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6546&start=250

On your 4/1 post, you say it's likely Mathurin and Akinjo are both back. It took me like 20 min to wade through stuff to get there, so hopefully that'a proof enough.

We took a step back in that we were widely (and IMO, rightly) predicted as a top 20 team. I have a hard time seeing that now. The present and future talent levels aren't what they were before the firing.

I think Lloyd was interested in KJ, but dude already had his mind made up. KJ's replacement is Larsson. Dezonie's replacement is Bal.

Mathurin was very likely NBA bound in the end. He didn't want to transfer and he didn't think his stock would get much higher with Miller's system and Akinjo. Terry didn't like the way he was being used with a ball dominant guard as the guy's strength is literally his creativity, so he needs the ball in his hands more. I always knew NBA was in the view for Mathurin even when he expressed he was probably going to come back, but you're right that I didn't know about Dalen until after the fact. I'm not holding anything against you brother.

We don't have Akinjo. That's literally the one difference between the team you were expecting and this team, while not knowing we were likely losing both our top wings. So Kerr and the improvement of our wings is definitely the key components of whether we're a top 20 team or not.

[Beachcat97]

The best candidate to coach Arizona Basketball this year was Sean Miller. I know you disagree with that but that’s the way I feel. My takes begin and end with that premise. Tommy Boy could end up proving me wrong but so far he hasn’t.

This is how I felt the week Miller was fired. No reason we couldn't have waited a year. If Lloyd wanted the AZ job this bad, he would've taken it next year too.

[ChooChooCat]

Arizona has replaced everybody so far outside of James Akinjo (I expect this to change pretty soon), Jordan Brown, and Tibet Gorener.

[RondaeShimmy]

They wanted to fire Miller a couple of years ago, but boosters and people got mad because it would destroy a top 5 recruiting class at Arizona plus some high level transfers.

The next year Miller could only get Terry and had to scramble and desperately go to Europe to get international kids really late into the recruiting year.

This year, Miller could only get a 3 sub 100 guys.

There's a reason Miller was going international and sub 100 players (plus transfers). This is the way the wind was blowing.

Ehhh, so first off, I think you're avoiding that the failure to support Miller was at least a partial driver in difficulty recruiting.

The international class you decry...Mathurin was not a late add, and he's the jewel of that class. You can also easily see this as Miller overcoming a lack of support to land a #6 national class.

Calling BS on the 2021 class. #80, 85 and 95.

https://247sports.com/Season/2021-Baske ... tRankings/

I do agree there's a reason Miller was doing what he was doing. It's hard to recruit like usual when the university president is hankering to fire you.

1) Of course they didn't support him, they wanted him gone and kept him to keep a top 5 class together, which is a stupid reason. Same as not hiring Ken N from navy because of quarterback getting mad

2) I didn't decry the international class. But saying Miller had to go there because he wasn't going to be able to land stateside kids. He would not have gone international if he had top 50-30 kids committed from the states.

3) that's sub 100 (sub = under). Not his usual sub 30, sub 50 etc

They weren't going to extend because they wanted him fucking gone 3 years ago (and kept him for essentially for a recruiting class that didn't produce a top 15 team they expected) and they knew Miller going into a season on his final contract year without an extension would be a fucking disaster. There's a reason no college does it, no recruiting basically.

[Olsondogg]

Arizona has replaced everybody so far outside of James Akinjo (I expect this to change pretty soon), Jordan Brown, and Tibet Gorener.

This is how I see it too, although Akinjo is a huge loss IMO and you aren’t getting someone equivalent.

I also think more of Jordan Brown than most do.

But honestly, getting Mathurin back is the biggest of all. That kid is very special and should have an amazing year regardless of whom is on the sideline.

[gronk4heisman]

Is Nowell coming? I have heard he is still up in the air and we are in desperate need of P5 quality players right now. Still feel if we do not get a quality PG able to contribute 15+ quality MPG at the 1 we are in deep trouble (bubble team).

[Alieberman]

Did I hear someone say that Jordan Brown could be persuaded to come back?

I would love that.

[ChooChooCat]

Arizona has replaced everybody so far outside of James Akinjo (I expect this to change pretty soon), Jordan Brown, and Tibet Gorener.

This is how I see it too, although Akinjo is a huge loss IMO and you aren’t getting someone equivalent.

I also think more of Jordan Brown than most do.

But honestly, getting Mathurin back is the biggest of all. That kid is very special and should have an amazing year regardless of whom is on the sideline.

Yeah truly Kerr is Akinjo's replacement and the other guy we'll get will certainly not be equivalent.

I didn't dislike Brown, but I struggled to see his role if it was not as starting center. Get a good PF compliment to Tubelis and I think that's a wash.

[RondaeShimmy]

Kerr seems like the most Gonzaga player ever, in the best ways.

I think he's Tommy's guy. Just need depth and that's harder to recruit for in the portal, same at PF position.

[gronk4heisman]

Could the Terry connection not allowed us to make some inroads with Hickman or did he basically decommit to go to Gonzaga? I find it weird that in the end Auburn was in the final running when we were at worst his third choice the first time around and the second time around we do not even come up.

[ChooChooCat]

Could the Terry connection not allowed us to make some inroads with Hickman or did he basically decommit to go to Gonzaga?

Yes.

[RondaeShimmy]

Could the Terry connection not allowed us to make some inroads with Hickman or did he basically decommit to go to Gonzaga?

Yes.

Is that what you meant by this

Also he had Tyty wrapped up until his old school dicked him over. Take that fwiw.

[Chicat]

The best candidate to coach Arizona Basketball this year was Sean Miller. I know you disagree with that but that’s the way I feel. My takes begin and end with that premise. Tommy Boy could end up proving me wrong but so far he hasn’t.

Maybe let him coach a game first?

I’ve never referenced his coaching. In fact, I’ve said I am only grading him based on recruiting. But he has never led a program or been the head coach on the floor. I understand that our illustrious and infallible school President trusts him to be elite in those areas but you’ll have to excuse me if I’m not yet convinced.

I don't disagree with you either persay, but there had to be a plan, and it had to be extend Sean Miller or fire him. Extending him leads to quite a bit of long term questions though. So I get why the plan was to fire Miller. Fwiw I think our core roster this year is better now than it would've been with Sean Miller.

Really? Well, you’re the expert. I don’t see it.

[ChooChooCat]

The best candidate to coach Arizona Basketball this year was Sean Miller. I know you disagree with that but that’s the way I feel. My takes begin and end with that premise. Tommy Boy could end up proving me wrong but so far he hasn’t.

Maybe let him coach a game first?

I’ve never referenced his coaching. In fact, I’ve said I am only grading him based on recruiting. But he has never led a program or been the head coach on the floor. I understand that our illustrious and infallible school President trusts him to be elite in those areas but you’ll have to excuse me if I’m not yet convinced.

I don't disagree with you either persay, but there had to be a plan, and it had to be extend Sean Miller or fire him. Extending him leads to quite a bit of long term questions though. So I get why the plan was to fire Miller. Fwiw I think our core roster this year is better now than it would've been with Sean Miller.

Really? Well, you’re the expert. I don’t see it.

I bolded it for you. That says coaching and not recruiting.

Look I get it, you're pissy because fuck Bobby Robbins (a reasonable take). I'll leave you be. Have a great day.

[Chicat]

It's weird that it's the people that usually don't populate the recruiting threads that are melting down the most about this.

No one is melting down, but would you prefer this board was dead?

[Longhorned]

Hey, I'll let him coach a game first. Let's not confuse superfan message board posts in May with rooting for our very own failure. Lloyd hasn't lost a game, and that's a fact. I'd bet we all agree fully that recruiting a month in to a new coach's tenure is a small sample size. And I'd bet we all agree fully that Lloyd is a nice, likable guy who's easy to get behind and be deeply grateful for, and that being our coach is genuinely his dream come true. And that he's convincingly the greatest and most successful assistant coach in the game. And that Sean Miller was a bonehead about his loyalty to Book even after Book demonstrated to everyone that he shat on others' loyalty. And that that situation was fireable, Schlabach or no Schlabach, years ago. All facts, and the faculty of a reasoning mind - we share these things. And we're all strong and persistent on pointing out disagreements of facts and reasoning.

So, does anybody disagree that Lloyd inherited the program at the strongest point that any new Arizona coach in history inherited? That may be a fact, too. Or is considering that a meltdown?

[Chicat]

The best candidate to coach Arizona Basketball this year was Sean Miller. I know you disagree with that but that’s the way I feel. My takes begin and end with that premise. Tommy Boy could end up proving me wrong but so far he hasn’t.

Maybe let him coach a game first?

I’ve never referenced his coaching. In fact, I’ve said I am only grading him based on recruiting. But he has never led a program or been the head coach on the floor. I understand that our illustrious and infallible school President trusts him to be elite in those areas but you’ll have to excuse me if I’m not yet convinced.

I don't disagree with you either persay, but there had to be a plan, and it had to be extend Sean Miller or fire him. Extending him leads to quite a bit of long term questions though. So I get why the plan was to fire Miller. Fwiw I think our core roster this year is better now than it would've been with Sean Miller.

Really? Well, you’re the expert. I don’t see it.

I bolded it for you. That says coaching and not recruiting.

Look I get it, you're pissy because fuck Bobby Robbins (a reasonable take). I'll leave you be. Have a great day.

I should have said “run” Arizona Basketball because there is a whole lot more to running your own program than coaching during games. But you knew that.

No reason to “leave me be” except of course if you don’t like talking to people who aren’t impressed with what Tommy Boy has done so far. In which case, I get it.

[YoDeFoe]

I don't think its useful at all to consider the Miller 2021-22 season - it's dead and gone.

Lloyd has done some good recruiting already. Keeping the guys he kept is no easy feat (look at every other school losing every dude to the portal following a coaching change). Larsson is a stud and will be far more productive than any CGs we had recruited. Bal is the insanely gifted development wing we all could hope for. Anderson has sky high potential next season.

My disappointment is simply that landing TyTy and Kaluma would have made us a team that could go for a tourney run, and now it feels like the ceiling is making the tourney. That takes some wind out of the sails.

Small sample size, late to the table, tough "internals" pulling the rercuits elsewhere... whatever. Put together with some of Tommy's comments and his lack of HC experience and it feels like the goal for this season is just to "get started" and not to "get after it." That's hard to stomach.

[RondaeShimmy]

It's weird that it's the people that usually don't populate the recruiting threads that are melting down the most about this.

No one is melting down, but would you prefer this board was dead?

Umm yeah, that roster would be set.

There'd be nothing to talk about.

[97cats]

ive very much enjoyed reading the least two pages of this thread.

thank you to all the contributors.

[Spaceman Spiff]

A top 20 team.

Although, I'm fairly sure Nowell, Dezonie, KJ was top 20 (or 25 depending on your rank system) and Lloyd would just have to retain them to score that sort of recruiting class. You've said Lloyd was not interested in KJ or Dezonie, which, ok...but his replacements sort of don't exist at this point. Moreover, he could have fallen into a top 20 class just by retaining what we had.

I've always showed respect for your insider status (hopefully) but before Miller's firing, you'd said the top 7 players should be returning. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I can't remember one time that you (or another insider) posted that Mathurin or Terry would leave due to Akinjo. I know that narrative has emerged since, but before the firing, it wasn't really there.

I don't mean this as a callout, more that I'm trying to be good about not pulling stuff our of my butt.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6546&start=250

On your 4/1 post, you say it's likely Mathurin and Akinjo are both back. It took me like 20 min to wade through stuff to get there, so hopefully that'a proof enough.

We took a step back in that we were widely (and IMO, rightly) predicted as a top 20 team. I have a hard time seeing that now. The present and future talent levels aren't what they were before the firing.

I think Lloyd was interested in KJ, but dude already had his mind made up. KJ's replacement is Larsson. Dezonie's replacement is Bal.

Mathurin was very likely NBA bound in the end. He didn't want to transfer and he didn't think his stock would get much higher with Miller's system and Akinjo. Terry didn't like the way he was being used with a ball dominant guard as the guy's strength is literally his creativity, so he needs the ball in his hands more. I always knew NBA was in the view for Mathurin even when he expressed he was probably going to come back, but you're right that I didn't know about Dalen until after the fact. I'm not holding anything against you brother.

We don't have Akinjo. That's literally the one difference between the team you were expecting and this team, while not knowing we were likely losing both our top wings. So Kerr and the improvement of our wings is definitely the key components of whether we're a top 20 team or not.

No disrespect in bringing up the pre-firing narrative. I just see it as evidence that it probably wasn't as set in stone as it's been made out to be post-firing. This, at a bare minimum, was not a situation where it was a dead clear "him or me" from the get go.

It's come up, but I would add that Brown's loss matters in light of his replacement being Ballo, and Ballo being a downgrade. This sticks out a little more for me in light of the fact I'm not sure Koloko is ready to be a 30 mpg type guy and losing Aiken limited us to 3 bigs right now. When one of those three is a downgrade from Brown, it matters.

The what would have happened is always tricky because it did not happen. Maybe the top 7 would have returned, maybe not. I hold some hope we could have pried Adam Miller from LSU, which would have cancelled Terry out, but...well, this is all speculation.

I'm not particularly optimistic about our ability to continue to be top 20, but I could be wrong. Kerr is good, but we are so razor thin depth at PG. I think Mathurin and Tubelis are very strong, but am not convinced Terry's ready for prime time.

Also, we went from a team with great firepower to being very dependent on Mathurin/Tubelis and Pelle. It's one reason I wouldn't start Pelle. If he's not a 6th man, we have almost no bench scoring.

[ChooChooCat]

The best candidate to coach Arizona Basketball this year was Sean Miller. I know you disagree with that but that’s the way I feel. My takes begin and end with that premise. Tommy Boy could end up proving me wrong but so far he hasn’t.

Maybe let him coach a game first?

I’ve never referenced his coaching. In fact, I’ve said I am only grading him based on recruiting. But he has never led a program or been the head coach on the floor. I understand that our illustrious and infallible school President trusts him to be elite in those areas but you’ll have to excuse me if I’m not yet convinced.

I don't disagree with you either persay, but there had to be a plan, and it had to be extend Sean Miller or fire him. Extending him leads to quite a bit of long term questions though. So I get why the plan was to fire Miller. Fwiw I think our core roster this year is better now than it would've been with Sean Miller.

Really? Well, you’re the expert. I don’t see it.

I bolded it for you. That says coaching and not recruiting.

Look I get it, you're pissy because fuck Bobby Robbins (a reasonable take). I'll leave you be. Have a great day.

I should have said “run” Arizona Basketball because there is a whole lot more to running your own program than coaching during games. But you knew that.

No reason to “leave me be” except of course if you don’t like talking to people who aren’t impressed with what Tommy Boy has done so far. In which case, I get it.

Look I have plenty of issues with some of Tommy Boy's decisions. If you wanted to bring in a great development assistant in that is not a recruiter that is fine and dandy, however, you need to make sure you have a recruiting assistant on staff and he has not done that. It's a risk and one that obvioulsy hasn't paid off in the short term, but maybe the long term. I'm not sure what his long term recruiting strategy will be, but I'll be sure to be fair in regards to whether I like it or hate it for Arizona. In the short term obviously development is being prioritized, which is certainly a much different pace from our last coach.

I don't think the man's perfect by any stretch, but I'm not going to hold two recruitments where certain factors (his old team screwing him and lack of time) working against him were completely out of his hands. The Larsson recruitment was a quality one once knowing the competition. He still has other stuff going on behind the scenes and if one in particular works out (remains to be seen) you will be major impressed.

I think the man will be a solid head basketball coach and I for one think our last coach was lacking in that primarily more than anything. Nothing Miller did was impressive to me post-2015 scheme-wise and it was only impressive then, because he had the horses and the buy-in amongst his players to run an effective scheme. There was no worthwhile adaptation in his coaching and quite frankly if his team didn't have Arizona on the front if their jerseys, I would have rather gouged out my eyes than watch his systems at work more often than not. I think Lloyd reverses this trend greatly and if I'm wrong you will be the first I admit that to.

[97cats]

everything wanted to be different and it is - hate it or love it it all will be different, top to bottom, including style of play

better will only be known in time

[ChooChooCat]

No disrespect in bringing up the pre-firing narrative. I just see it as evidence that it probably wasn't as set in stone as it's been made out to be post-firing. This, at a bare minimum, was not a situation where it was a dead clear "him or me" from the get go.

None taken and I'm far from one that can't admit when he was wrong or I simply didn't know/was misled.

It's come up, but I would add that Brown's loss matters in light of his replacement being Ballo, and Ballo being a downgrade. This sticks out a little more for me in light of the fact I'm not sure Koloko is ready to be a 30 mpg type guy and losing Aiken limited us to 3 bigs right now. When one of those three is a downgrade from Brown, it matters.

I don't disagree with this at all, which is why Kaluma was so damn important. I was never big on Aiken and the fact Miller had to settle for him shows what place we were in as a program, which was further compounded by our President's treatment. I do think Arizona finds a guy at the very least on Aiken's level. Either way if Brown's departure means more lineups of Kerr, Larsson, Mathurin, Terry, Tubelis then I find that as a major net positive.

The what would have happened is always tricky because it did not happen. Maybe the top 7 would have returned, maybe not. I hold some hope we could have pried Adam Miller from LSU, which would have cancelled Terry out, but...well, this is all speculation.

Miller was never on the table for us.

I'm not particularly optimistic about our ability to continue to be top 20, but I could be wrong. Kerr is good, but we are so razor thin depth at PG. I think Mathurin and Tubelis are very strong, but am not convinced Terry's ready for prime time.

A lot will depend on Kerr and the development of Terry. I feel very good about the latter, but I do like the former and I know Lloyd really really likes Kerr. If there were a more prototypical Gonzaga PG out there right now I'd love to see him. I'm not saying we'll be top 20, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

Also, we went from a team with great firepower to being very dependent on Mathurin/Tubelis and Pelle. It's one reason I wouldn't start Pelle. If he's not a 6th man, we have almost no bench scoring.

Remember this is a different system. I'd expect needing a guy like Akinjo to create his own offense is not going to be as required to create quality offense.

[Spaceman Spiff]

So, does anybody disagree that Lloyd inherited the program at the strongest point that any new Arizona coach in history inherited? That may be a fact, too. Or is considering that a meltdown?

100 on this.

We can argue what would have happened, but the projections had our roster in a good place and I think that's valid. Our recruiting class was top 20, and that's not awful by any means.

I'd just say he inherited a strong program. We can disagree about how good, but I would add it's substantially better than most coaches get when walking into a situation where the previous guy got fired.

Look, I mean, Lloyd might have a not so good year 1, then rebound in year 2. Or be bad both years. Or be good both years. We do sort of have to judge what's gone on so far and I'm just not thrilled with that. It could be worse, but it could also be much better.

And I don't think Arizona should be looking to just ok as a standard. When I talk about projected top 20, if we'd retained Miller and he missed that, I would have classed it a disappointment.

[ChooChooCat]

everything wanted to be different and it is - hate it or love it it all will be different, top to bottom, including style of play

better will only be known in time